Help a Rookie Reloader Interpret Load Development - 6.5 CM

[TSpork]

Thanks guys, really appreciate the help. This is driving me nuts.

The reloads:
140ELD-M
Lapua SRP brass
Fed 205M
H4350

the factory Berger are:
140 Hybrid Target
The factory ammo measures 2.110” length to ogive.
COAL is 2.800”

Length to Ogive is measured with a Hornady 5-26 Comparator

 

[TSpork]

So here’s what I’m thinking of doing today.
Or maybe I’ll take Wednesday off work and do this.

I have my bolt stripped. The bolt closes and falls easily on a sized piece of brass. I have a Forster micrometer seating die. I could just keep seating 0.001” deeper until It closes without pressure. That should tell me where my lands are.

Thoughts on this?

 

[jsthntn247]

Two nodes at 41 and 42.2. They are 3% apart which is textbook. If 42.2 isn’t too hot adjust seating depth there.

 

[TRPrecision]

Perhaps consider casting the chamber.

 

[Precision Underground]

So here’s what I’m thinking of doing today.
Or maybe I’ll take Wednesday off work and do this.

I have my bolt stripped. The bolt closes and falls easily on a sized piece of brass. I have a Forster micrometer seating die. I could just keep seating 0.001” deeper until It closes without pressure. That should tell me where my lands are.

Thoughts on this?

That how I check when things don’t add up. Something is fishy since you seated longer without resistance before though. May need to find the drop closed point and then load a clean dummy a hair longer and make sure you can see marks on the clean bullet from hitting the lands. IOW make sure the lands is what you’re hitting by verifying marks on the clean bullet.

 

[TSpork]

So update:
I shot a match yesterday and one of the more experienced shooters there took a look at it and helped me out. Determined that it’s slightly pushing on the lands.

Today I pulled the ejector and firing pin and kept seating a bullet deeper and deeper until the bolt fell without any resistance. This measurement using the Hornady Comparator (5-26) came out to 2.081”. I repeated this with 3 bullets, and with bullets seated at 2.081”,the bolt would fall. 2.083”, it would hang up.

Perfect, I crank my die to seat it at 2.061” and reseat 5 bullets that I had previously loaded. Measure them all after and they’re all between 2.060”-2.062”.

4 close fine, but the 5th one does not. It stops with the bolt almost closed.

That’s not good, so I try it again with another 5. All seated where I want them, but 1 out of the 5 does the same thing. So I turn my die to seat 0.010” deeper. Check the measurement and it’s seated at 2.051” with the comparator. It still hangs up and I can feel pressure closing the bolt.

The others seated 0.030” farther out (2.081”) let’s the bolt drop. In fact it even bounces at the bottom. Same thing with the others seated at 2.061”. Any ideas why this one that measures 2.051” is getting stuck?

 

[Gustav7]

Is the case too long? Have you trimmed them all recently

Is case headspace the same on the one not fitting? Maybe verify again

Other than those two things, Idk.... but your freebore sounds short as shit.

 

[Campguy308]

Are you sure you don't have a carbon ring?

Did you try to chamber that 5th case with no bullet?

 

[Precision Underground]

Are you sure you don't have a carbon ring?

Did you try to chamber that 5th case with no bullet?

This. Pull the bullet and try to close on the case. Unless the bullets aren’t consistent it almost has to be the case. I guess if you had some crazy runout on a couple of the seated bullets it could cause it to hang up but it would have to be pretty bad.

 

[TSpork]

Are you sure you don't have a carbon ring?

Did you try to chamber that 5th case with no bullet?

Don’t think it’s a carbon ring because the barrel has about 350ish rounds through it(300 factory and 50 reloads)

Do you think a carbon ring could form that quickly?

This. Pull the bullet and try to close on the case. Unless the bullets aren’t consistent it almost has to be the case. I guess if you had some crazy runout on a couple of the seated bullets it could cause it to hang up but it would have to be pretty bad.

unfortunately no way to measure runout. If it makes a difference, using Forster full sized die, Forster ultra micrometer die, and a Co-Ax.

Is the case too long? Have you trimmed them all recently

Is case headspace the same on the one not fitting? Maybe verify again

Other than those two things, Idk.... but your freebore sounds short as shit.

The cases all just got trimmed to minimum length. These are all once fired brass from the factory Berger. I sized, expanded, and trimmed/chamfered.

Ya, I was thinking it seems like the freebore is super short.

Thank you guys for helping me diagnose this issue.

So since a couple mentioned headspace, looking from my notes it seems like I measured headspace on 5 fired cases to be 1.557” and 2 to be 1.558”. Bumped them back to 1.555”.


Measured 3 cases from this weekend and they measured 1.557”, 1.557”, and 1.558”

I just checked and the headspace of those that chambered fine and they were 1.555” 1 was 1.556”, and a couple measured 1.5545”. 1 of the ones that didn’t chamber measured 1.5555” and the other measured 1.556”.

I’m going to try and pull the bullet on those when I get a chance and try to chamber again. I’m thinking it’s the headspace. The part that throws me off is that one of the ones that did chamber measured 1.556” also.

 

[Campguy308]

I wouldn't think carbon ring that soon, but I wouldn't make assumptions.

First thing I'd do is rule that out. I was looking at that photo you posted on the first page. Do those marks on the bullet look like rifling, or is it more of an uneven gouging effect? Is it all the way around the bullet or just one side?

Then I'd pull the bullet on the one that won't chamber and see what happens.

Do you have any factory hornady 140 eld ammo? I'd try to chamber that and see what happens.

Its possible you have more than 1 problem here.

 

[TSpork]

Thank you to all that contributed. It's been a tremendous help.

Last weekend I pulled the bullet on the round that had slight pressure chambering. It was tight due to the brass. I increased the bump slightly and the issue went away. So that was the mystery piece. I checked again how far I needed to seat the bullet before it would close with no pressure.

It was still at the same length to Ogive of 2.081" with the 5-26 comparator. I bumped them back to 2.061", but the round seems really short (as others have pointed out). Here's it next to a factory 140gr Berger round that chambers without any pressure. That one measures 2.110".

The much more experienced shooter who helps run the matches and took the time to help me out says that my barrel might be throated for the Berger bullets which is why my rounds are coming in so short with the different shape of the ELD-Ms. He advised using the Berger instead since I had no issues with those and it seems like the 140ELD-Ms need to be short.

So I decided to take his advice and instead of trying to get the ELD-Ms to work, just use the Bergers instead since they already work. They should be able to be seated just as long as the factory rounds, and I can probably seat them farther out if need be. I got 2500 of the 140 Hybrid Targets on the way from Mile High, but looks like i'm going to have to start from scratch on the load development. Probably shouldn't go as high as 43.1 this time though

 

[Gustav7]

Good to hear you got it figured out, just make sure your shoulder bump matches that and you give a little wiggle room.

You don't have to start from SCRATCH, but you'll wanna rework a little bit. I wouldn't go to 43.1... but that 41.0-41.3gr looked nice. You can always just do a shorter workup, stopping around the 42.6ish area. Just to confirm or get another zoomed in picture of what the 140 Bergers are doing.

 

[Mattio]

I hadn't seen it posted yet but THIS IS THE WAY to simplify load development and clear your mind of all the little dimensions and measurements that A. you cant accurately measure, B. are constantly changing. I use the method described by Erik Cortina in the following videos. Its changed my entire thought process on load development for the better.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Great thread.

 

[leclairk]

42.2 and try seating 20 out and 20 in...the primers look fine...some guns just crater

Can someone elaborate on this? 20 out being .02? Thanks

 

[Gustav7]

Can someone elaborate on this? 20 out being .02? Thanks

Yes. It's referring to "20 thou" or 20 thousandths, so 0.020". It's referring to seating depth.

After a good charge is found, one approach is to play with seating depth to tighten the group size up.

 

[TSpork]

I hadn't seen it posted yet but THIS IS THE WAY to simplify load development and clear your mind of all the little dimensions and measurements that A. you cant accurately measure, B. are constantly changing. I use the method described by Erik Cortina in the following videos. Its changed my entire thought process on load development for the better.

This honestly helped so much. My new Bergers come in tomorrow, and I’m going to just find my jam this weekend and go from there.

I just got to do new load development to figure out powder charges first

 

[TSpork]

Good to hear you got it figured out, just make sure your shoulder bump matches that and you give a little wiggle room.

You don't have to start from SCRATCH, but you'll wanna rework a little bit. I wouldn't go to 43.1... but that 41.0-41.3gr looked nice. You can always just do a shorter workup, stopping around the 42.6ish area. Just to confirm or get another zoomed in picture of what the 140 Bergers are doing.

I’m thinking that maybe I’ll just shift it down to 40.5-42.5 and see what happens, and expect a node around 41.0 and 42.2. Since I’m changing bullets, the bearing surfaces between 140 Berger hybrids and the 140ELD-Ms are probably different and might shift those nodes around. And who knows, both might show up without pressure signs

 

[clcustom1911]

I’m thinking that maybe I’ll just shift it down to 40.5-42.5 and see what happens, and expect a node around 41.0 and 42.2. Since I’m changing bullets, the bearing surfaces between 140 Berger hybrids and the 140ELD-Ms are probably different and might shift those nodes around. And who knows, both might show up without pressure signs

Based on my experiences, when you find an actual "node" for that given bullet weight class say, a 140 grain bullet, then it should do well with other 140 grain bullets. Maybe some tweaking, but it may shoot good enough to not be worth doing constant load development.

My experience comes from loading Berger 140 Hybrids, Sierra 142 Matchkings, and Hornady 147 ELDm's bullets with 41.5 grains of H4350, and they all perform similarly. My buddy uses the Lapua Scenar-L 139 with 41.5 grains and his hammers. Same with 47 grains of Reloder 26 with the same bullets for me.

In my 7mm RemMag, I use 68.5 of Reloder 26 with Nosler 168 Custom Comp, Sierra 168 MatchKing, Berger VLD 168, and Berger Classic Hunter 168's. They all travel between 2980-3000 FPS and do very well in the accuracy department.

I used to shoot to reload because I loved tinkering, but wasn't really getting any real marksmanship value out of all my testing. Now, I reload to shoot more.

 

[NineHotel]

Low ES is your best friend for repeatable POI at long range. Based on everything above, I'd load 42.2 and be done with it. Yea you can play w jump to try to tune your group size down.

Your wandering POI is a symptom of shooting technique/pressures on the rifle, not the load BTW.

That flattening of the velocity curve is right where you want to be for a forgiving, low ES load, that you can throw rather than hand weigh if in a crunch on time for reloading.

 

[TSpork]

Based on my experiences, when you find an actual "node" for that given bullet weight class say, a 140 grain bullet, then it should do well with other 140 grain bullets. Maybe some tweaking, but it may shoot good enough to not be worth doing constant load development.

My experience comes from loading Berger 140 Hybrids, Sierra 142 Matchkings, and Hornady 147 ELDm's bullets with 41.5 grains of H4350, and they all perform similarly. My buddy uses the Lapua Scenar-L 139 with 41.5 grains and his hammers. Same with 47 grains of Reloder 26 with the same bullets for me.

In my 7mm RemMag, I use 68.5 of Reloder 26 with Nosler 168 Custom Comp, Sierra 168 MatchKing, Berger VLD 168, and Berger Classic Hunter 168's. They all travel between 2980-3000 FPS and do very well in the accuracy department.

I used to shoot to reload because I loved tinkering, but wasn't really getting any real marksmanship value out of all my testing. Now, I reload to shoot more.

That’s good to know! I’m not a big reloading guy. I see it as a chore, but if I want to shoot and not pay an arm and a leg, I do it. Which is why I have 600 Lapua brass from the same lot of ammo. That way I can knock out big lots at one time

 

[TSpork]

Low ES is your best friend for repeatable POI at long range. Based on everything above, I'd load 42.2 and be done with it. Yea you can play w jump to try to tune your group size down.

Your wandering POI is a symptom of shooting technique/pressures on the rifle, not the load BTW.

That flattening of the velocity curve is right where you want to be for a forgiving, low ES load, that you can throw rather than hand weigh if in a crunch on time for reloading.

I’m going to try and hit the range Saturday morning. Bullets came in today and I’m going to try and load some Friday if I can after work. The nodes should be somewhere around where they were last time based on what clcustom said. Hopefully I get good results and it confirms what I saw last time

 

[TSpork]

Do you think the 1:10 lanolin mix is okay to use to live the bullet like Erik Cortina does to find jam? It looks like he’s using some die wax, but I don’t have any and I’m having a hard time finding it locally. I would order it but I’m hoping to get loading Friday. If not, i can order and wait

 

[Steel head]

Do you think the 1:10 lanolin mix is okay to use to live the bullet like Erik Cortina does to find jam? It looks like he’s using some die wax, but I don’t have any and I’m having a hard time finding it locally. I would order it but I’m hoping to get loading Friday. If not, i can order and wait

You could try it
Erik is probably using imperial.
I’ve tried so many lubeswhistle and imperial is still my favorite and the least problematic in my findings.

 

[TSpork]

You could try it
Erik is probably using imperial.
I’ve tried so many lubeswhistle and imperial is still my favorite and the least problematic in my findings.

That’s what I’m trying to find. And of course none on Amazon. My fear is the lanolin isn’t slick enough and allows the bullets to grab slightly as it’s extracted. That would then make me think the jam point is farther than they really are and might lend me in dangerous ground as I’m seating. Would rather do it right and as intended so I don’t mess it up

Got a couple more places to call tomorrow and hopefully they answer their phones

 

[NineHotel]

You can do this several ways. One way is to slot cut the neck with a hack saw or dremel, then set the neck tension with your sizer. The bullet will move more freely this way than not slotted.

Another is to use a regular (empty sized) case with no primer designated as your OAL test case along with a hammer style bullet puller, then use your regular seater to vary the depth of the bullet seating, trying to find the lands. Mark the bullet with a black marker, and use a magnifying glass to look for the tick marks of the lands on the ogive of the bullet.

Once your OAL (base to ogive) for THAT LOT OF BULLETS is determined, keep this OAL test round with that lot. That way you can easily adjust your seater to that length, using the test round as your guide for adjusting the seater.

If you do a lot of this hammering/seating/hitting the lands/repeat activity, throw the test bullet away after 3-4 collisions with the lands, otherwise the bullet deforms and you start to get false readings.

 

[TSpork]

Just as an update. Tested the jam using the Erik Cortina method and I measured my jam to be at 2.265” using the 5-26 comparator. I did it several times and it was always at that same point +/- 0.002”.

Loaded some rounds 0.020” deeper, so a distance of 2.245”. That yielded extremely long rounds. They measured 2.940”, they just barely clear the magazine (0.020”), but hoping that’s not a problem. More worried that there’s enough bullet in the neck of the brass (part of the boat tail is in the neck). Think this will be a problem?

I loaded 5 rounds from 40.7-42.5 that I can test tomorrow and report back.

 

[TSpork]

You can do this several ways. One way is to slot cut the neck with a hack saw or dremel, then set the neck tension with your sizer. The bullet will move more freely this way than not slotted.

Another is to use a regular (empty sized) case with no primer designated as your OAL test case along with a hammer style bullet puller, then use your regular seater to vary the depth of the bullet seating, trying to find the lands. Mark the bullet with a black marker, and use a magnifying glass to look for the tick marks of the lands on the ogive of the bullet.

Once your OAL (base to ogive) for THAT LOT OF BULLETS is determined, keep this OAL test round with that lot. That way you can easily adjust your seater to that length, using the test round as your guide for adjusting the seater.

If you do a lot of this hammering/seating/hitting the lands/repeat activity, throw the test bullet away after 3-4 collisions with the lands, otherwise the bullet deforms and you start to get false readings.

thanks for the detailed explanation! I was able to test it using the Erik cortina method. I was able to get the wax 10 minutes before a shop closed.

I work in manufacturing and definitely understand the importance of lots. I was able to snag 2500 of these bergers from the same lot to help cut back on frustrations, I hope..

 

[clcustom1911]

I had your seating depth dilemma a number of months back..... my Tikka has a long throat and touching the lands meant having not a whole lot of the bullet being controlled by the case neck.... below is what I did...

Seating depth test interpretations... uh... assistance.

Full disclosure: I've never really done an actual seating depth test before in my 10 years of loading for bolt guns. I've only really tried to duplicate factory match ammo dimensions with better velocity, SD, and ES. It works, but I wanted to actually see what magic could happen. I'm going...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Gustav7]

Just as an update. Tested the jam using the Erik Cortina method and I measured my jam to be at 2.265” using the 5-26 comparator. I did it several times and it was always at that same point +/- 0.002”.

Loaded some rounds 0.020” deeper, so a distance of 2.245”. That yielded extremely long rounds. They measured 2.940”, they just barely clear the magazine (0.020”), but hoping that’s not a problem. More worried that there’s enough bullet in the neck of the brass (part of the boat tail is in the neck). Think this will be a problem?

I loaded 5 rounds from 40.7-42.5 that I can test tomorrow and report back.

20 thou off is just a common starting point, but in no way do you NEED to start there.

I started my last test for my 223AI at 50 thou off. I'll probably test out to ~150 thou and see what it likes.

 

[TSpork]

So today I took my newly finished loads with the Berger 140 Hybrid Targets out and performed the same test as last time, but varying from 40.7-42.5. All groups were shot at 100yds, 5 shot groups,

Load:
Berger 140 Hybrid Target
H4350
Lapua Brass
Fed 205M

Also note, that the ES for 42.2 would have been tighter had it not been for the last shot(2876, 2874, 2870, 2870, and 2883).

The error bars show the ES spread of each of the loads. It seems like the nodes that I noticed last time seemed to have shifted down 0.3 grains from switching from the ELDM to the Berger Hybrid. In fact, the good 41.0 load had the highest ES spread of them all this time. Wasn't expecting the nodes to shift so much when switching bullets of the same weight.

Here's what the target looked like:

I did also start to notice a little ejector swipe at 42.2 and 42.5. The left is 42.2 and the right is 42.5.

I showed it to the RSO the 42.2 and he said he thinks it's fine. The ejector marks are very slight, and the primers are still round. I tried to capture an image of both. What does the Hide think? any input? Tempted to try and chase the group around 41.9-42.2 due to the low ES and good accuracy

 

[clcustom1911]

Holy shit man. Whatever you're doing, keep doing it!

This is just me, I like my brass to last longer, so I dont go for the top charge area with H4350, which is in the 42+ area. Even though your lapua brass can handle it for a number of loadings, I personally like to get 8-10+ loadings out of brass, so I go to the next lower node which is the 41.0-41.3 area. There's only a 10fps difference in average velocity, the SD/ES is better than factory match ammo, and the groups are fantastic.

I chased the ES/SD dragon for a while with so much load development just to come to an understanding that for what I was wanting to do with the rifle/ammo combo at the distances I normally shot, an ES of 12 and ES of 30 didn't make any difference whatsoever.

As it pertains to SD... 95% of rounds are going to be within 3 SD's of the average (I think, its been a while since I took stat).

Here's a good amount if info to pour over:

How Much Does SD Matter?

As long-range shooters, we tend to obsess over every little detail. After all, we’re trying to hit r...

precisionrifleblog.com

Different people like/dislike the author. I like the articles just for their information value.

 

[Gustav7]

I pretty much ignore SD any more. Learning from guys on here and shooting out to a 1000+, I really only care about ES and making sure its not too high. For my purposes, anything under a 30 ES across 10+ shots is fine with me. I also don't compete and I'm not shooting for groups at 1000 so all I need is consistent enough to not drag me off target due to vertical.

I like the sound of 42.0gr for your loading. ES is good from 41.9-42.2 and 42.5 does look a little hot, so using 42 is in the middle-ish and looks good. Worth testing more for sure

 

[Deleted member 113831]

So today I took my newly finished loads with the Berger 140 Hybrid Targets out and performed the same test as last time, but varying from 40.7-42.5. All groups were shot at 100yds, 5 shot groups,

Load:
Berger 140 Hybrid Target
H4350
Lapua Brass
Fed 205M

Also note, that the ES for 42.2 would have been tighter had it not been for the last shot(2876, 2874, 2870, 2870, and 2883).
View attachment 7472103
View attachment 7472104
The error bars show the ES spread of each of the loads. It seems like the nodes that I noticed last time seemed to have shifted down 0.3 grains from switching from the ELDM to the Berger Hybrid. In fact, the good 41.0 load had the highest ES spread of them all this time. Wasn't expecting the nodes to shift so much when switching bullets of the same weight.

Here's what the target looked like:
View attachment 7472113
View attachment 7472114

I did also start to notice a little ejector swipe at 42.2 and 42.5. The left is 42.2 and the right is 42.5.
View attachment 7472124
View attachment 7472125
I showed it to the RSO the 42.2 and he said he thinks it's fine. The ejector marks are very slight, and the primers are still round. I tried to capture an image of both. What does the Hide think? any input? Tempted to try and chase the group around 41.9-42.2 due to the low ES and good accuracy

I told you that I would treat 42.2 as max because of that exact reason back here:

Primer is noticably flatter at 41.9
42.5 has an obvious ejector imprint.
I would treat 42.2 as a max charge.

Your hard seating issue with that one round was either headspace difference, or you have a tight neck and that piece had thicker brass in the neck. Though it looks like you got that squared away.

Good, safe, tunable nodes often show up between 2% and 1% off max.
42.2 grains x .98 = 41.3 grains
42.2 grains x .99 = 41.8 grains

Your targets above illustrate this exactly. 41.3-41.9 is where I would be, with some seating depth tweaking to bring the groups into a round shape.

 

[WilburW]

Agree with 42.2
Play with seating depth to see if it improves the groups.

 

[NineHotel]

I'd be all over 42.0 with the knowledge that I could throw it rather than weigh each charge if I were pressed for time.

Keep in mind all this hard work will pay off when you run out of this jug and have to change lots. Save some of the old lot as a control for the testing of the new lot, duplicate the velocity of the old lot, and run with that charge weight using the new lot. Saves you from starting over.

 

[TSpork]

Alright guys,

I could use a little more advice. I loaded some more rounds 3 1/2 months ago, and finally got around to shooting them all. They are all seated at the same depth. What I'm wondering is why I got dramatically different results from my last test in regard to ES, SD, and velocity. Any ideas?

It seems a lot worse than what I was achieving before. Here's the wider test I ran when I was loading them and firing them within a few days

I followed the same procedure when loading

 

[Jabot]

Was it virgin brass last time? How many rds on barrel the first time compared to now? Same lot of powder? 100% percent sure u did same thing. And if they were reloaded and sat for awhile your es could be affected by that

 

[TSpork]

Was it virgin brass last time? How many rds on barrel the first time compared to now? Same lot of powder? 100% percent sure u did same thing. And if they were reloaded and sat for awhile your es could be affected by that

So what I did was I bought 600 of the same lot of Berger Ammo, shot about 200, then started attempting to reload while shooting the remainder 400 in PRS comps. So all the brass I used last time and this time were all once fired, cleaned, and trimmed at the same time.

So I had 200 once fired brass that were primed and ready to go. Loaded the first test, shot within a few days. A couple weeks later loaded the next set from the once fired brass, but didn't shot them since work got crazy and been shooting in the comps. Between the first test, and last test, probably close to 300ish rounds of the Berger factory rounds

 

[Jabot]

I would try it again and see what u get . Or pick a velocity u want to run bullet at then run seating depth test for groups

 

[TSpork]

I would try it again and see what u get . Or pick a velocity u want to run bullet at then run seating depth test for groups

Ya, I'm trying to decide what to do now. Limited time to shoot and only have 35 rounds left of factory ammo. Next match is in a week and a half, so I might take tomorrow off to reload and shoot