Help from the 175 SMK/I4064 Loaders

[padom]

How many barrels? How different were the tapers? How different the calibers? Just the V3 or the Sporter also? How different were the set ups (bipod, mechanical rest, sand bags)?

You might disagree, but there is no possible way you can be definitive with something so situationally individual.

I can be and there is a way. Guess what, I've done it. And I'd setup next to you and test all day long. I've tested more contours, barrels, caliber setups, then you'll test in a lifetime. My information is straight factual not speculative. You can speculate all you want. I'm giving you the facts.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I can be and there is a way. Guess what, I've done it. And I'd setup next to you and test all day long. I've tested more contours, barrels, calibers setups, then you'll test in a lifetime. My information is straight factual not speculative. You can speculate all you want. I'm giving your the facts.

How could you possibly have seen what it does to my barrel for instance, I don't remember you being there. I've seen a few others at my local range...don't remember seeing you there either.

You must be fucking omnipresent.

 

[pmclaine]

I loaded up some 2.8225s.

10 to be shot at 300 without the magnetospeed

and

10 to be shot with the magnetospeed.

My barrel is M40 contour, reasonably beefy....Ill see if my supposition that the MS cause my rounds to consistently fly high yet still group works out.

May take a while before I get to it though, into my weekends off rotation.

 

[padom]

How could you possibly have seen what it does to my barrel for instance, I don't remember you being there. I've seen a few others at my local range...don't remember seeing you there either.

You must be fucking omnipresent.

Unless your barrel is some super space age one off your barrel isnt different then the million barrels we are all shooting. Go ahead, feed me your contour, caliber and I'll feed you pictures, targets and setup.

It's factual data. I dont need to be next to you holding your hand at the range. Your pillow sock or sand bag doesnt have an effect on accuracy with a MS. It most certainly has an effect on your shitty shooting but doesnt have any effect on the accuracy with a MS attached..how do I know? I've done it. 100's of times over

 

[padom]

I loaded up some 2.8225s.

10 to be shot at 300 without the magnetospeed

and

10 to be shot with the magnetospeed.

My barrel is M40 contour, reasonably beefy....Ill see if my supposition that the MS cause my rounds to consistently fly high yet still group works out.

May take a while before I get to it though, into my weekends off rotation.

They will most certainly have a POI shift, but it will not affect group size.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Unless your barrel is some super space age one off your barrel isnt different then the million barrels we are all shooting. Go ahead, feed me your contour, caliber and I'll feed you pictures, targets and setup.

It's factual data. I dont need to be next to you holding your hand at the range. Your pillow sock or sand bag doesnt have an effect on accuracy with a MS. It most certainly has an effect on your shitty shooting but doesnt have any effect on the accuracy with a MS attached..how do I know? I've done it. 100's of times over

Shot this just for you today.

Without the Magnetospeed:

...and again with the Magnetospeed.

This is consistent with every other time I've done this with this rifle and load. It not only exhibits the typical POI change, this particular load actually shoots tighter with the MS attached. Also, the shape of the group has totally changed.

So all your data amounts to "fuck all" in my case....and possibly the OP's situation as well.

 

[918v]

Could you provide more details about your load, your rifle, and how you secured the MS to your barrel?

 

[padom]

Shot this just for you today.

Without the Magnetospeed:
View attachment 7081472

...and again with the Magnetospeed.

View attachment 7081473

This is consistent with every other time I've done this with this rifle and load. It not only exhibits the typical POI change, this particular load actually shoots tighter with the MS attached. Also, the shape of the group has totally changed.

So all your data amounts to "fuck all" in my case....and possibly the OP's situation as well.

1" vs 1.23"??? Lmfao amateur hour over there

Your load and your shooting skills suck a fat one. Your horizontal dispersion is all the idiot behind the trigger not the MS. Bud. Dont quit your day job


You're preaching fake news like you're shooting 0.25" groups vs 1" groups.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Could you provide more details about your load, your rifle, and how you secured the MS to your barrel?

Rifle:
Trued Rem700, 308 Win
24" Bartlein barrel, Sendero taper, 1/10 twist
McMillan A-5 stock bedded to action
Vortex HST 4-16 scope

Load:
175 Sierra
41.5 grains IMR 4895
Fed GMM brass twice fired weight sorted, annealed.
Fed 210 primer.

Environmentals:
60*F this morning at time of firing
Overcast
wind 0-2 mph

 

[Deleted member 113831]

1" vs 1.23"??? Lmfao amateur hour over there

Your load and your shooting skills suck a fat one. Your horizontal dispersion is all the idiot behind the trigger not the MS. Bud. Dont quit your day job


You're preaching fake news like you're shooting 0.25" groups vs 1" groups.

As much as some seem to agonize over 1/4 MOA, seems you usually believe it is significant, just not when it is in disagreement with your arguments. 1/4 at 100 yards is a 25% difference.

This is a load I used to illustrate the point, not my best load.

Why does my shooting always get better with the MS attached? Is it magic?

The change from a group that is almost completely vertical, to a group that is obviously horizontal means absolutely nothing to you? That says volumes about your interpretation skills.

 

[918v]

The reason I asked about how you attached the MS to the barrel is because MS slides forward under recoil and this changes poi. So your test is invalid if the MS was not kept from sliding forward by a hard stop of some sort.

 

[918v]

Second, your rifle is capable of excellent accuracy. You should pick a stable load that is in the middle of a broad accuracy node to do a test like this.

 

[padom]

As much as some seem to agonize over 1/4 MOA, seems you usually believe it is significant, just not when it is in disagreement with your arguments.

This is a load I used to illustrate the point, not my best load.

Why does my shooting always get better with the MS attached? Is it magic?

The change from a group that is almost completely vertical, to a group that is obviously horizontal means absolutely nothing to you? That says volumes about your interpretation skills.

Your 1 single group is far from factual data. As someone else noted, we know nothing about your rifle, load, loading skills, shooting skills. Go shoot a 6x5 with it on and a 6x5 with it off. State your rifle specs, load details, loading process. That will be more factual data then you showing us 2 magical 5 shot groups with ZERO information. To answer your question, yes it means nothing to me. Not anywhere enough data to draw any factual conclusions.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

The reason I asked about how you attached the MS to the barrel is because MS slides forward under recoil and this changes poi. So your test is invalid if the MS was not kept from sliding forward by a hard stop of some sort.

This rifle has no muzzle break. I have a strip of tape on the barrel. The MS was checked for position after every round.

 

[padom]

As much as some seem to agonize over 1/4 MOA, seems you usually believe it is significant, just not when it is in disagreement with your arguments. 1/4 at 100 yards is a 25% difference.

This is a load I used to illustrate the point, not my best load.

Why does my shooting always get better with the MS attached? Is it magic?

The change from a group that is almost completely vertical, to a group that is obviously horizontal means absolutely nothing to you? That says volumes about your interpretation skills.

Load you used to illustrate your point? Not your best load? You arent showing anyone shit unless you are shooting your BEST load which is in the center of a NODE and at optimal seating depth. You cant draw ANY conclusions otherwise to even begin to state this is a magneto speed issue. I'm TELLING you it isnt. I've done it 1000s of times.

Amateur hour over here with someone that thinks they know what their doing. Spew your nonsense somewhere else but dont do it here on the Hide misleading people that dont know any better.

Curious...how many rifles have you tested this on to where you came to these conclusions? How many contours? How many calibers? How many rounds fired? What was your testing procedure for each? 5x5 on and off for each? Factory ammo? Your semi ok not so great but not best loads??

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Your 1 single group is far from factual data. As someone else noted, we know nothing about your rifle, load, loading skills, shooting skills. Go shoot a 6x5 with it on and a 6x5 with it off. State your rifle specs, load details, loading process. That will be more factual data then you showing us 2 magical 5 shot groups with ZERO information. To answer your question, yes it means nothing to me. Not anywhere enough data to draw any factual conclusions.

But we are commenting on a test by the OP, in which he is using the exact method and distance that I did.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Load you used to illustrate your point? Not your best load? You arent showing anyone shit unless you are shooting your BEST load which is in the center of a NODE and at optimal seating depth. You cant draw ANY conclusions otherwise to even begin to state this is a magneto speed issue. I'm TELLING you it isnt. I've done it 1000s of times.

Amateur hour over here with someone that thinks they know what their doing. Spew your nonsense somewhere else but dont do it here on the Hide.

Now you are changing the argument.

The argument is whether the MS changes group size. The size of the group doesn't matter, only the degree of change. The close range of 100 yards helps to eliminate variables. Yet there was not only a 25% change in group size, but also a total change in group shape.

 

[padom]

But we are commenting on a test by the OP, in which he is using the exact method and distance that I did.

No, WE are not. IM providing first hand experience and factual data tested over 1000's of rounds, contours, calibers and loads. You've stated your testing procedure. I've called your bullshit so future readers of this thread can read all the data provided and draw their own conclusions on bullshit vs truth

 

[pmclaine]

Shot this just for you today.

Without the Magnetospeed:
View attachment 7081472

...and again with the Magnetospeed.

View attachment 7081473

This is consistent with every other time I've done this with this rifle and load. It not only exhibits the typical POI change, this particular load actually shoots tighter with the MS attached. Also, the shape of the group has totally changed.

So all your data amounts to "fuck all" in my case....and possibly the OP's situation as well.

Only data I accept from the MS deals with velocity ES/SD.

I expect group variation but if the numbers are there the groups should follow.

Interesting your MS shoots high, appears to mirror my results with the sporter strapped to the barrel.

 

[padom]

Now you are changing the argument.

The argument is whether the MS changes group size. The size of the group doesn't matter, only the degree of change. The close range of 100 yards helps to eliminate variables. Yet there was not only a 25% change in group size, but also a total change in group shape.

No, your just too damn dumb to understand. I havent changed shit. Still stating a MS DOES NOT change group size.

Your out of the node, not so great load is the more probable answer to your group size change or your shooting skills than the MS.

Please post your load development targets for this load your shooting and show us how you picked this LOAD and in relation to what? Come on, give us some more data to at least begin to think you know what your doing and lean towards the MS as you are so sure of...


And again, we are talking 1 group without any other info. I'll say it again, post 6x5 both on and off and all your rifle, load data and testing procedure then we can start drawing conclusions.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

@padom

It's not that you're stupid....it's just that you don't know everything you think you do.

 

[padom]

@padom

It's not that you're stupid....it's just that you don't know everything you think you do.

Lolol. I dont think anything and I dont speak to things I dont have factual data to back up. You've ignored the requests and havent back up with any data to substantiate the claims you were called out on. I've got my point across. That's all that matters. I could care less what you think of it

 

[Deleted member 113831]

You've ignored the requests and havent back up with any data to substantiate the claims you were called out on.

I provided a target...shot today....that backed up my point. I provided specs on gun, environmentals and load.

I haven't seen any of this wealth of data you keep talking about. But it doesn't really matter, because you made a definitive assertion. That alone is a retarded thing to do in most cases, because it only takes one instance to prove your statement wrong.

The truth is, I don't have to show you tons of data, I just showed you one. I showed you the one I needed to prove that you are wrong...at least sometimes.

You put your dick on the table and chose the wrong type of argument to defend. You got it smashed a few different times and didn't learn. Maybe you will remember next time.

Go ahead and get your last retarded word in and I'll let it go. It's been fun though.?

 

[spife7980]

Not wanting to get into the cat fight but...
when I had a msv3 I ran an ocw test over it and every group fired with it on was an obscured 1-1.5 moa and high. Took it off and ran the ocw back again the next weekend and the typical ocw pattern with groups shifting with charge weight came right back. After that I only used it for final velocity verification before I sent it on down the road. So thats an example of one and I didnt test every caliber, contour, bullet or shade of anything under the sun but I did prove (to myself at least) that it wasnt my ideal for test conditions.

Test results with the ms off of the barrel will not ever be questioned for interference, groups with it on the barrel are always subject to questioning. Only way to know is to test it yourself and not to rely on the internet forums. People will fight both ways.

 

[Doom]

From a testing standpoint testing without the MS should yield results that should be repeatable in a normal shooting situation. You are reducing the number of variables that MAY affect the results. Velocity is not part of the OCW process. Once you have have your nodes then you can test for velocity without worrying about group size and location.

 

[padom]

From a testing standpoint testing without the MS should yield results that should be repeatable in a normal shooting situation. You are reducing the number of variables that MAY affect the results. Velocity is not part of the OCW process. Once you have have your nodes then you can test for velocity without worrying about group size and location.

Velocity is not but SD's are when you have calibers with very wide nodes like 6br and 6.5x47L where every group is tiny and has zero change of poi from group to group. In that instance I use chrono data to help assist in selecting my OCW.

While chrono should never be the deciding factor it can assist in deciding in situations. Especially when you have tiny groups, same poi but SD's in the 20's vs other charges with SD's of 5 or less.... High SD's arent a factor doing OCW at 100yd but will be very noticeable beyond 500....

 

[Doom]

Point well taken.

 

[pmclaine]

Belay that last........As I was.

Decided not to mess with the Magnetospeed this weekend but I did say "What if longer but just under 2.83 is where I want to be?"

Tested 10 2.8225 and 10 2.8275

Noticed 1 of 10 was low off of paper after taking down the target, hence only 9 on the target.

The short guys seem to group better save the wild flyers.

I know Im not super shooter but Im questioning if my Dillon beam scale is repeatably accurate.

I got this same sample loaded up that Ill check over the magnetospeed to see if velocities are staying consistent.

With return of warm weather Im thinking these will be going faster than my earlier tests.

Rather have them be slow in the cold and safe in the heat.

 

[Bradu]

They will most certainly have a POI shift, but it will not affect group size.

This has been my experience with about 15 rifles I've done this with. About 1.5" high but group size doesn't seem to be affected.

 

[Bwells]

Tagging in

 

[pmclaine]

Finally got back to this.....

Stretching out the COAL of some rounds at 42.2...

 

[JMGlasgow]

2.8475 looks pretty good.

 

[joel65]

pmclaine,
Have you tried 2.800 - 2.810 yet?
Longer than 2.810 COAL with 42.2 IMR-4064 and 175 SMK caused my groups to open up.

 

[ArmyJerry]

what brass you using?

pmclaine,
Have you tried 2.800 - 2.810 yet?
Longer than 2.810 COAL with 42.2 IMR-4064 and 175 SMK caused my groups to open up.

 

[joel65]

Lapua large primer.
2.795 - 2.810 gives me 1/2 MOA.

 

[pmclaine]

2.8475 looks pretty good.

Note that the "theoretical" OAL as used to label the rounds and the actual, as measured differ significantly.

I am using a Redding micrometer seater die to seat my bullets.

Supposedly each tic on the micrometer head is supposed to be .001 of movement.

I labled my rounds based on the "theoretical" supposed to be measurement.

Reality I found that the micrometer does not move the amount the tic marks show, likely compounded by differences in the bullets themselves.

At the top of the targets I listed actual COAL and OGIVE as an average of the 5 rounds measured individually.

Im getting screwy numbers. Some rounds were actually shorter despite adjusting the die for greater length.

I measured to the lands in my rifle. Despite being chambered by PWS in Quantico it still shows significant room to move before I hit lands.

Ive got another 5x5 to shoot before the rounds become to big for the magazine.

 

[pmclaine]

what brass you using?

FGMM 1X

 

[Rthur]

Shot this just for you today.

Without the Magnetospeed:
View attachment 7081472

...and again with the Magnetospeed.

View attachment 7081473

This is consistent with every other time I've done this with this rifle and load. It not only exhibits the typical POI change, this particular load actually shoots tighter with the MS attached. Also, the shape of the group has totally changed.

So all your data amounts to "fuck all" in my case....and possibly the OP's situation as well.

While I'm a little late to the party I'll give you my take on these targets.
Target one:
Mostly breathing with one trigger crunch
Target two:
Verticle is fairly tight but trigger crunch is causing the horizontal
MS is going to be hard to blame until you are punching 5 inside a .5 circle or better.

R

 

[QuickNDirty]

As much as some seem to agonize over 1/4 MOA, seems you usually believe it is significant, just not when it is in disagreement with your arguments. 1/4 at 100 yards is a 25% difference.

This is a load I used to illustrate the point, not my best load.

Why does my shooting always get better with the MS attached? Is it magic?

The change from a group that is almost completely vertical, to a group that is obviously horizontal means absolutely nothing to you? That says volumes about your interpretation skills.

Could it be the extra dampening on the end to absorb some of that flinch you don't realize you have.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I sold my MS because it caused POI shift and effected the group size. My groups aren't anything special but it was rather obvious and repeatable.

 

[EJ1001]

Hmmm. My experience with the MS is a POI shift but no discernible effect on group size. I wonder since barrels are like individuals, a MS affects each rifle differently? Maybe newer shooters like me are not consistent enough to see a correlation?

FWIW - I have had multiple 10 shot groups averaging ~.8 MOA, and many 5 shot averaging ~ .6 MOA with and without the MS attached.

I must add that I relatively new to precision rifle?

 

[918v]

Note that the "theoretical" OAL as used to label the rounds and the actual, as measured differ significantly.

I am using a Redding micrometer seater die to seat my bullets.

Supposedly each tic on the micrometer head is supposed to be .001 of movement.

I labled my rounds based on the "theoretical" supposed to be measurement.

Reality I found that the micrometer does not move the amount the tic marks show, likely compounded by differences in the bullets themselves.

At the top of the targets I listed actual COAL and OGIVE as an average of the 5 rounds measured individually.

Im getting screwy numbers. Some rounds were actually shorter despite adjusting the die for greater length.

I measured to the lands in my rifle. Despite being chambered by PWS in Quantico it still shows significant room to move before I hit lands.

Ive got another 5x5 to shoot before the rounds become to big for the magazine.

SMK vary about .010” in length within the lot. So you can get a shorter coal even though you set the micrometer to make them longer.

 

[pmclaine]

Today.....

These are the last of the rounds I have loaded that will feed from the magazine.

Number 5 is 2.8631 COAl and measurement to OGIVE is 2.1783.

Using a Hornady/Stony Point tool I measured the "to lands" OGIVE of the rifle at 2.282".

I have more ammo made up getting me out to just under the 2.282" measurement and I will likely shoot it next range trip just to see what it does for accuracy but I dont want to have a single shot rifle.

Right now Im inclined to go with the length of cartridge that produced target 5.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Yeah, target 5 looks good. Load some more of those and see if it repeats.

 

[little_scrapper]

Tagging in. Not only am I new to rifle shooting. Only been doing it for a couple years. I still waiting on the RockChucker I ordered so I can get started.

Lots of good info

 

[pmclaine]

Tagging in. Not only am I new to rifle shooting. Only been doing it for a couple years. I still waiting on the RockChucker I ordered so I can get started.

Lots of good info

You should probably follow someone else.

I think I am the worlds worst reloader.

My next plan........

I have 25 more rounds 5 X 5 at increasing lengths.

All of these rounds exceed the length to reliably mag feed as well they are getting close to jammed with the lands.

First two longer length groups of 5 And ve colored the bullet OGIVE with Sharpie to chalk for jamb.

Other three I will crawl them up to just within the point they contact lands and see which will reliably feed.

Rather than shoot the next target round robin I'll shoot in groups of 5 to check for feed.

Should produce better groups. I tend to shoot better groups when I stay on one target and just fire the mag.

 

[pmclaine]

Had to qualify at work today. Miserable hot.....

So hot I soaked my MOAB IIs from the inside out.......

Thinking it would be a waste to do any load testing in 85/humid temps I was just going to go home.

But rather than get my car all sweated up I figured I would stop by the range and just complete the length testing on this saga.

Better to leave ass sweat on the bench stool than the car.....

I was rewarded with some unshot distance targets for my perseverance....

Cant figure why people buy shit, staple it up than leave it unused. Whatever I hope they dont stop. I love these at distance.

One of them was actually "shot up".....3 holes - 2 in the white, 1 in the black - I used it as my warmup....

Cold bore fell all alone and 4 together below.

Forgot to get a picture of the rifle only a target to show......

Im going 2.8771. That is only 4 rounds. 1 wouldnt allow bolt close yet all other 29 shots did. Im thinking that one round may have been the last round seated (I went from high to low because that was where the seater was at) and with the empty shell plate it didnt seat all the way.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

Great group. Shoot it at distance and see how she does now.

Don stress on side to side as that is very likely you or some wind influence. Look for your verticle spread.

 

[pmclaine]

Three hundred yards with the 2.8771 load.

I did adjust the seater in a CH to see if I could get that one round that would not allow the bolt to close to now close.

It fit today and I fired that round as my cold bore. I used 4 rounds of "Team Never Quit" (FGMM 7.62X51) to warm the barrel and shooter.

"Team Never Quit" approximates M118LR so my scope zero seems to be dead nuts. My starting dope on the MST was 3/+.5 E - 0 W.

I held the same dope and moved over to my second target.

I went spastic on my first five because it was for record. Looks like I need to reload my Sharpie.....how many grains of red ink?

I dialed off the +.5 on the scope and shot the next 15 rounds at 3/0 E - 0 W.

Pretty happy with that but Im getting at best three in the magazine. The rounds are too long.

The way I measured to Lands (Hornady Tool) Im probably actually jamming the bullet.

I have 25 more rounds of this made up and I am going to seat each group of 5 - .001 - deeper and see if I can get the longest round to feed five from the magazine.

Shot my target in groups of 5 which I prefer to do.

Used my new Rifle Kuhl to give the barrel a five minute fan session between groups....

Seemed to work good.

Brought my new to me 70 plus year old cover to the range too.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

I might have missed it but how far off the lands are these currently loaded?