Help interpreting initial handloads

[PanaDP]

Good morning. I just came back from an initial trip with the goal of working up a good long range handload. This is in a remington 700 with a 20" 1:12 barrel in .308.

-FC Cases
-CCI 200 Large Rifle Primers
-178gr A-Max bullet seated to a COAL of 2.825 (the absolute maximum I can load into the magazine)

All loads are with varget in individually weighed charges of 42.5gr, 43gr, 43.5gr, 44gr, 44.5gr, and 45gr.

Each target is 5 shots at 100yds off a bench:

To me, the raw maths point to pursuing another finer graded test around the 43.5gr mark to see if I can squeeze a bit more out of it, perhaps 43gr to 44gr in .2gr increments.

The groups are much closer in size than I expected. What do you guys think should be my next step?

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

They all look close to a good load, problem is that it is over the range of loads. Group difference could be due to a pulled shot, it's hard to judge from one five shot group. Based on groups I'd pick the 43.5 load and try a more thorough test. Try it at a couple of ranges, out to the max you plan on shooting.

 

[Cascade Precision]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

What is the vertical string height on the following loads (all else being equal with marksmanship fundamentals):
Load 42.5 grains
Load 45 grains
Load 43.5 grains

Reason I ask is if you have very LITTLE vertical stringing, you could very well be hitting a good load and blowing it due to wind.

What the hell do I know, I am just some dude on a computer somewhere!

Wally

 

[Cascade Precision]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

Also, stretch the distance to 300 and build from there. Reason being, you may have a dead-nuts 100 yard load that performs slightly worse that poop at further distances.

 

[PanaDP]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

I loaded more of the same charges today. I think I'm going to shoot them all at 300 yards and see what happens. More data has never been a bad thing.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

Was 45gr a max load? If not, load some hotter.

I really recommend doing two identical ladders at 300 yards, identifying potential nodes, then running an OCW around those nodes. Then fine tune with a seating depth test.

 

[PanaDP]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

Yeah, 45gr was listed as a max load by either Hornady or hodgdon, I forget which. It was the higher max load listed.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

verticle stringing is powder charge inconsistency
left and right is seating depth

them hornady's will jump

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PanaDP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, 45gr was listed as a max load by either Hornady or hodgdon, I forget which. It was the higher max load listed. </div></div>

Many of us, myself included, find our best loadings above book max. If you aren't scared, I recommend ladder testing to find your individual rifle/brass max.

 

[GardDog]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I recommend ladder testing to find your individual rifle/brass max. </div></div>

Good advice. Your sweetspot might be somewhere between the .5 jumps. The Ladder will really show you your desired result, IMHO.

 

[crewchef]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

I also have Remington with 20" 1 in 12 barrel and have been working on similar load, FGMM brass, 210 primers and Varget but using 175 SMK instead of the 178 AMax. Really surprised you aren't seeing any pressure signs at 45.0. I started having heavy bolt and ejector marks at 44.4/5 and had to back off. The Federal brass has less capacity so you have to watch it. Ended up my accuracy load was 43.4 of Varget. Need to play with seating depth, at .025 off right now but want to move around some to see if it will tighten up any

 

[rcamuglia]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">verticle stringing is powder charge inconsistency
left and right is seating depth

</div></div>

C'mon! There is absolutely no way a guy can make this statement as such an ABSOLUTE! Completely untrue.

Barrels whip and move THOUSANDS of times after the primer is detonated and BEFORE the bullet exits. All the combination of components affect the harmonics!

Vertical and Horizontal stringing can have many causes.

Some loads that are weighed to the perfect tenth grain and are identical will vertically or horizontally string.

I've corrected Scattergun type groups by a .010" change in seating depth.



All of your loads look pretty good. You have a good rifle. The advice given to move out to 300 or more yards and shoot the same groups is correct. Pick the best load from the long range groups and do a seating depth test in .010" increments to dial it in!

 

[Trevor]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

what power scope are you using?
that looks like a 1" target dot.
if your holding on the dot you have the potential for 1" error hold and this will influence both your vertical and horizonal shot placements.

I always try to test with the highest powered scope i have available, coupled with the smallest aiming point i can see.
last point is to have your scope adjusted so the shots fall 2-3" higher then the aiming point this allow you to return to the same point of aim and not have a shot screw the aiming point

I would test again preferable at a greater distance then 100 failing that redo the test with a smaller aiming point and
re-test.

 

[PanaDP]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

The dots look the same size as the pennies in the photos, which would make them 3/4". I shot at 16x early enough in the morning that there was no mirage.

 

[PanaDP]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

I'm just going to keep this thread updated and perhaps it will be useful to someone someday. I'm trying to take everybody's advice when practical.

I've loaded up cartridges for a ladder test. I've done 2 each of 42.9gr, 43.2gr, 43.5gr, 43.8gr, 44.1gr, 44.4gr, 44.7gr, 45gr, 45.3gr*, 45.6gr*. The *asterisks* denote loads that are hotter than book maximum (45gr varget with 178gr A-max bullet) loads and shall be carefully tried anyway.

Everything else is exactly the same as what I tried in the original post.

I've also color-coded each load by painting the bullets with unique colors of permanent marker. I'll be recording the hits on paper as I go but hopefully enough ink will transfer to give me a nice color-coded piece of paper to visualize what's going on.

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

A ladder test and loading over book max have nothing to do with each other.
Unless you really know how to read pressure signs stay with book loads. Your
rifle will have at least two accuracy nodes with the book loads, usually 3, especially
with a short barrel. You want a faster .30 there are lots of choices out there. Blowing
your gun up and maybe your face is the risk you are taking.

 

[PanaDP]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

Of course they are related. If my rifle shoots best above book max and does so safely, that will be my load. I don't feel I am being unsafe in any way.

 

[crewchef]

Re: Help interpreting initial handloads

Certainly not telling you what to do but would urge some caution. As mentioned in my earlier post, Federal brass is heavier and has less capacity than most others. Based on what you're referencing for max load I assume it came from Hodgdon manual/website. If you look back at that, their reference loads were using Winchester brass. When I worked up my load for Remington SPS Tactical with 20" 1 in 12 I was using FGMM brass, Federal primer and Varget. I had a really tight group at 44.5 but also felt a difference in bolt lift and saw slight ejector marks on the brass with that load. It wasn't a huge change and on some brass I had to look hard to see the marks but they were there. There was another accuracy node at 43.4 and so far it's performed well at 300, 500 and 600. No need to push for that last few MV if another lighter load will work just as well.