Help justifying buying an AMP

[rady]

Typically shoot 500-1000 rounds of various cf cartridges per year and I'm trying to justify the $1400 for the AMP. Looking at the brass prices today and knowing that they will not be decreasing about how much extra life can I expect from annealing my brass? I'm slowly coming to the realization that I'm hardening my existing 2-3x fired, as es #'s are increasing and accuracy is decreasing.

I'm also looking at bullet seating with and arbor press as an added part of my reloading process.

Opinions welcomed at this time and thanks.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Personally, I can't. Don't see anything it does that can't be accomplished with a torch, drill and socket. Some will disagree though.
But if you have the money and really want one....

 

[DellaDog]

Don't see anything it does that can't be accomplished with a torch, drill and socket.

It just does it more consistently, quickly and reliably.
(Though I'm still trying to convince myself it makes a difference down range.)

 

[KZP]

You get VIP access to classy joints like the reserved room at Burger King. Just tell the cashier " I have an AMP ".

I bought one because I hate money and didn't have good results trying the blow torch drill socket combo. It has worked as advertised so far. Shoulder bump has been more consistent compared to before. Velocity ES is low. I'm happy.

 

[rustyinbend]

I'm a "Gadget Guy" ... and the AMP is just a wicked-cool gadget. I shoot more than you do, but high or low round count ... if you've got the scratch ... buy it. If your primary objective is to save money as you reload ammo that's "good enough", then by all means, stick with a propane torch and a pair of plyers. If your objective is to precisely anneal after every shooting, optimize handload accuracy, and you've got a little extra money to throw at it ... then get one. I LOVE mine.

I always remember what an old boss of mine used to say ... "It's not a 'problem' if you can solve it with money. It's an 'expense', and your decision is actually a budgeting and prioritization exercise."

 

[supercorndogs]

What you are doing with the AMP, is paying a premium to take your thought out of the process. It is certainly not faster, the machine can't be considered more reliable than a torch. I don't see how it can be more consistent either. Anyone claiming better accuracy, or more consistency with an AMP, over a torch needs to back their claim up with data. People who use torches acheveive the desired results, people who use salt achieve the desired results. People who use an AMP achieve the desired results. If someone gave me an AMP I would still use my torch machine, because its way faster. Fill the hooper, and press go.

You can a toss a lot of 3-5x fired brass and start new for 1400 dollars. 1400 pieces of Lapua brass x5=6000rds or x3=4200 rounds.

Any machine that drops the brass or turns the heat off at a given time, is going to be consistent.

 

[Graye2]

Find a friend who will go in with you and share the cost. If you don’t have any now - you will after you tell them you have an AMP.

 

[sinister]

You can spend about a quarter of that on a Ken Light machine.

[Edited] Wow, okay, the Ken Light has gone up, but still less than half what they want for an AMP.

 

[lightman]

You get VIP access to classy joints like the reserved room at Burger King. Just tell the cashier " I have an AMP ".

I think you can also get VIP access by telling the cashier that you shoot a Creedmoor!

I didn't notice much difference with accuracy before I started to anneal and afterward. I bought my annealing machine during the Obama shortages because Winchester's QC dropped so bad that I was getting split necks on new brass the first time I fired it. Brass was hard to find at that time, as it is now, and I put a lot of prep into my brass. It hurt to loose such a high percentage on the first firing.

The AMP looks like a nice machine. I bought a Giraud Annealing machine partly because of how well I liked his trimmer and partly because I could load the hopper and do something else.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

I'm a "Gadget Guy" ... and the AMP is just a wicked-cool gadget. I shoot more than you do, but high or low round count ... if you've got the scratch ... buy it. If your primary objective is to save money as you reload ammo that's "good enough", then by all means, stick with a propane torch and a pair of plyers. If your objective is to precisely anneal after every shooting, optimize handload accuracy, and you've got a little extra money to throw at it ... then get one. I LOVE mine.

Your response sounds quite condescending. I guess it depends on how you define "good enough". I'm doubtful you can find any measurable improvement downrange. It's rotating a piece of brass in front of a flame. It's not magic. So yes, no measurable difference = good enough.

I agree that being a gadget guy is an understandable reason to buy one. I do understand that certain things make reloading more enjoyable. So if it floats your boat...nothing wrong with that.

 

[KZP]

...because I could load the hopper and do something else.

This is a good point to consider. The AMP has an auto loader, but it's complicated and adds cost to an already expensive machine. My schedule allows me to hand anneal each case while listening to youtube or music so I'm not bothered. But if you want to do something else while annealing, buying an AMP just got more expensive.

 

[acudaowner]

if you want to pay a grand or more for it buy it , if not there are other methods that cost a hell of a lot less you could choose its all up to you the buyer .

 

[918v]

Typically shoot 500-1000 rounds of various cf cartridges per year and I'm trying to justify the $1400 for the AMP. Looking at the brass prices today and knowing that they will not be decreasing about how much extra life can I expect from annealing my brass? I'm slowly coming to the realization that I'm hardening my existing 2-3x fired, as es #'s are increasing and accuracy is decreasing.

I'm also looking at bullet seating with and arbor press as an added part of my reloading process.

Opinions welcomed at this time and thanks.

If your accuracy is decreasing after 2-3x then your load is crap.

 

[Sniperwannabee]

Annealeez – For a Hot Piece of Brass!

annealeez.com

 

[CK1.0]

If you've got the scratch, go for it. Ferrari's are expensive too, and make no mistake, the AMP is the Ferrari of annealing machines.

Though, in a game of $100 bags of sand and $400 scope mounts is it really expensive? or just worth it?

I shoot ~300rds a month (a lot of that out to 1000 yards) and I know it's worth it to me.

For 500-1000rds a year, it'd be a little like using a sledgehammer as a fly swatter. The DIY drill/torch method ain't perfect, but it'll de-stress the necks enough to ward off much of the work hardening that occurs and will help keep brass from dying an early death.

 

[rady]

Weighted it all and decided to go with the AMP. Not having to mess around with the propane tanks is one reason.

 

[Defender3]

I had the same "itch" and was dying to scratch it with an AMP. I shoot a bit more, about 6,000rds a year and wanted to get the most out of my reloads. I looked hard at the AMP but made a decision to go with a Giraud instead. You're mileage will vary, but there were a couple factors that swayed me based on my use case:

Total Cost - The AMP requires differing pilots for each cartridge you may anneal and they add up. The Giraud requires a different feed carrier (wheel) for a small vs a large cartridge.

Auto load - Although the AMP can be autoloaded, there's an additional cost and the device seems to have growing pains. I didn't want to be sitting at the AMP and manually feeding cases. The Giraud has a large hopper you can load and at least be in the area doing other tasks while 300+ cases are processing. I annealed 5,000 cases over a 3-day weekend this winter and got lots of other stuff done at the same time, I couldn't do that with an AMP. The Giraud's hopper was also a reason I selected it over some other propane annealers.

Again, your situation will be different, and if you just do small loads at a time, you can negate the auto load concern. Good luck with the decision!

 

[308pirate]

If your objective is to precisely anneal after every shooting

99% of you people don't know shit from shinola about annealing in particular or heat treating and metallurgy in general.

It's fucking laughable to listen to ignoramuses like you make claims like this

Unless you are all testing for hardness, you're assuming that your process is in control but have no proof.

 

[OREGUN]

99% of you people don't know shit from shinola about annealing in particular or heat treating and metallurgy in general.

It's fucking laughable to listen to ignoramuses like you make claims like this

Unless you are all testing for hardness, you're assuming that your process is in control but have no proof.

I think the trouble is this:
When my car’s speedo says 70, I assume we are going 70.
When I set the microwave for 2 minutes, I assume it’s going to run for two minutes.
When my autotrickler says 30.2 grains, I assume that’s what we are getting.

When my AMP says to use code 152 for consistent, case-appropriate annealing, I assume that is correct and repeatable.

There’s a lot of assumptions there and you aren’t wrong about most people, myself included, not knowing shit about annealing or heat treating or metallurgy. However, that makes me even less interested in trying to asses the effectiveness, adjust the intensity, or otherwise manage an annealing system that relies on me to set a timing element, adjust a flame tip, manage gas levels, evaluate temperature, etc. That’s the value of the AMP, to me. Like so many other things that we all do, using machines that we don’t understand well enough to manually replicate, it’s a bit of an act of faith that the AMP will be more repeatable and consistent than I could be trying to do it myself even with a tool as slick as the Giraud.

 

[308pirate]

I think the trouble is this:
When my car’s speedo says 70, I assume we are going 70.
When I set the microwave for 2 minutes, I assume it’s going to run for two minutes.
When my autotrickler says 30.2 grains, I assume that’s what we are getting.

When my AMP says to use code 152 for consistent, case-appropriate annealing, I assume that is correct and repeatable.

There’s a lot of assumptions there and you aren’t wrong about most people, myself included, not knowing shit about annealing or heat treating or metallurgy. However, that makes me even less interested in trying to asses the effectiveness, adjust the intensity, or otherwise manage an annealing system that relies on me to set a timing element, adjust a flame tip, manage gas levels, evaluate temperature, etc. That’s the value of the AMP, to me. Like so many other things that we all do, using machines that we don’t understand well enough to manually replicate, it’s a bit of an act of faith that the AMP will be more repeatable and consistent than I could be trying to do it myself even with a tool as slick as the Giraud.

Your POV is fair and not something I have an issue with. You know that you really don't know how capable your system is, you just know that it's good enough and easier to use than other alternatives. Alternatives that may very well be more capable but not as user friendly.

My comment was directed at those who say "my X is the most accurate/consistent/capable/etc" with zero evidence of it to back it up.

 

[supercorndogs]

There is not really that much voodoo to case annealing with a torch, and not that much info you need to know. You don't need pliers{I have never known anyone who used pliers to check their annealing} and you don't need templaque, use this works, and is probably the simplest way I have seen to set up annealing time on your torch machine. You don't even have to turn out the lights, and it achieves the same results.

 

[Steel head]

I usually burn out one barrel a year and I can’t justify one.
I can anneal a case faster than I can throw a powder charge.

There is not really that much voodoo to case annealing with a torch, and not that much info you need to know. You don't need pliers{I have never known anyone who used pliers to check their annealing} and you don't need templaque, use this works, and is probably the simplest way I have seen to set up annealing time on your torch machine. You don't even have to turn out the lights, and it achieves the same results.

This video was a game changer for me.
Made annealing super simple, saved me a lot of money and has given me great results for quite a few years.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I use an annealeaz. Much more consistent than a drill and socket over a torch and I can also load it up and do other things like prep brass while it’s running. I’m sure it’s not AS consistent as an AMP, but it’s pretty Fricken good and have had no issues with it.

 

[Sig Marine]

Everyone has their reasons for annealing the way they do. While some methods are easier in some ways, they fall short in others.

This said, I've tested the different ways to anneal using a homemade annealer, an Annealeez, Bench Source, Giraud and AMP. My testing was not scientific other than taking readings on a chronograph for ES and SD. Rounds annealed with a torch were set-up using dummy cases and 750 degree Tempilaq inside the necks. Sample size for each machine was 10 rounds shot over a MagnetoSpeed using a Bartlein barreled 6.5x47. All rounds were annealed, sized, primed and loaded in the same reloading session to insure they were as close to identical as possible. They were shot on a morning where the ambient temperature from start to finish was less than 5 degrees thus atmospherics/enviromentals remained relatively constant throughout the test.

As for my results; my testing did not show any significant differences between annealing methods/machine. I fired two 5-shot groups for each machine, ten shots total. All of the groups ended up with ESs between 15-18 fps and SDs between 5-6; accuracy and group size on the target showed no discernible differences.

My take away from this was that it really doesn't make any difference how you anneal if you set the machine up properly. Ease of use/set-up, manual feed vs hopper, torch vs induction, etc. are considerations to weigh when deciding which annealer you want to purchase. My test showed me that the cost of an annealer has nothing to do with the end result.

 

[Barelstroker]

Weighted it all and decided to go with the AMP. Not having to mess around with the propane tanks is one reason.

If you've got the feathers, fly with the AMP.
Whatever you do, take no notice whatsoever of that Primal rights vid. There's not one piece of factual information in that vid. AMP use temps of around 1000 F & higher & obtain excellent results. Nothing is or can be burned out of the brass &, the colour of the flame off the case has no correlation with annealing.
Go with the AMP, & deal with people who have done the research.

 

[NiteQwill]

I don't like money but I do like my AMP.

With 2 brass holders, I can anneal 100 cases in 10 minutes.

 

[Texasflyer]

My annealer was free, i use a planted pot base 3/4 full of water on top of a water pump pulley, spin by hand and torch to proper Mississippi count. The water keep me from ever over annealing the case wall and acts as a heat sync, also cools them as knock each one over. I only load 20-40 rds at a time usually so this method makes the most sense for me.

 

[charliehorse27]

I’m using a Benchsource currently. Cost about $450. Takes about 5 minutes to get set up, but then cranks right through them. I use Tempilaq to make sure the right area is getting to temp, and the other areas staying safe.

 

[918v]

Everyone has their reasons for annealing the way they do. While some methods are easier in some ways, they fall short in others.

This said, I've tested the different ways to anneal using a homemade annealer, an Annealeez, Bench Source, Giraud and AMP. My testing was not scientific other than taking readings on a chronograph for ES and SD. Rounds annealed with a torch were set-up using dummy cases and 750 degree Tempilaq inside the necks. Sample size for each machine was 10 rounds shot over a MagnetoSpeed using a Bartlein barreled 6.5x47. All rounds were annealed, sized, primed and loaded in the same reloading session to insure they were as close to identical as possible. They were shot on a morning where the ambient temperature from start to finish was less than 5 degrees thus atmospherics/enviromentals remained relatively constant throughout the test.

As for my results; my testing did not show any significant differences between annealing methods/machine. I fired two 5-shot groups for each machine, ten shots total. All of the groups ended up with ESs between 15-18 fps and SDs between 5-6; accuracy and group size on the target showed no discernible differences.

My take away from this was that it really doesn't make any difference how you anneal if you set the machine up properly. Ease of use/set-up, manual feed vs hopper, torch vs induction, etc. are considerations to weigh when deciding which annealer you want to purchase. My test showed me that the cost of an annealer has nothing to do with the end result.

Ok but in my experience and also of others on this site over annealing ruins accuracy. I guess it depends on the particular firearm. There are some rifles with tight chambers and certain very forgiving calibers where annealing might not make a difference. (Not too long ago there was a person on this site who posted his 6.5x47 load development pics and every single group was a cloverleaf) But how consistently and to what temperature you anneal certainly does matter in a factory rifle with a standard chamber in a popular caliber

 

[CK1.0]

Weighted it all and decided to go with the AMP. Not having to mess around with the propane tanks is one reason.

I didn't mention earlier: the AMP is kind of like a fancy scope or any other piece of top-tier kit in that it will retain it's value quite well, the cost of admission is just a little painful... if you find you just don't use it or need it, it probably won't lose a whole bunch on the secondary market.

One of the best things about the AMP is that while there are seemingly endless threads, theories, and arguments about annealing all over the shooting forums, you can take comfort in the fact that the nerds at AMP have already forgotten more than all us assholes will ever know about annealing... hard to put a price on that.

 

[918v]

you can take comfort in the fact that the nerds at AMP have already forgotten more than all us assholes will ever know about annealing... hard to put a price on that.

Bull shit

 

[Texasflyer]

Bull shit

Thats the pitch anyways lol.

 

[supercorndogs]

Step right up folks and see the largest midget in all the land! admission only two dollars, to see s sight that will change your life forever.

 

[308pirate]

you can take comfort in the fact that the nerds at AMP have already forgotten more than all us assholes will ever know about annealing..

That's not hard to do when the average knowledge level is zero.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Lots of opinions on annealing. Might as well throw in mine:

Torch + Drill : If you get decent at it, it will work fine. Harder to maintain consistency. Takes a little playing to get it set up right. Slowest of the bunch.
Homemade Rotator/Holder + Torch: A little easier to maintain consistency because some variables are removed, so a little easier to get decent at it. Takes a little playing to get it set up right. A little less slow.
Annealeez/Benchsource, etc.: Set up for better automation, so they make the process quicker. Takes a little playing to get it set up right.
Annie Annealer: No flame. About the same speed as the Benchsource if you build a few supporting pieces. Takes a little playing to get it set up right.
AMP: No flame. Press a button and anneal

Note that in none does it say more accurate. If you get decent at those that take a little practice, they will deliver similar results as those that don't.

For the longest time, I used a homemade rotator stand with two torches. I got pretty good at making it work well. But I got tired of using open flame in the house, as well as how long it was taking. I didn't want to spend for the AMP, so got an Annie. I've been pretty happy with it. It's consistent and is a little quicker than using a flame.

AMPs are nice. Two friends have them, and they are an easy button. But it doesn't take a whole lot to get one of the other methods set up and working well - and you'll spend roughly a third or less.

 

[supercorndogs]

Are people trying to run their torches as low as they can, as far way from the case as they can? I had turn my torch down some the other day in set up because I was torching 223 brass faster than the machine could spit them out. Move that torch in, turn it up, get the hot part on the case, 3-4 seconds, and a case is done. I have a big 24x36 aluminum doe tray that catches the brass as it comes out of the machine. I do worry about a tiny gas flame in my house though. So much so, that every time I leave my house, I go tun off all the pilot lights.

 

[Snuby642]

If all your shooting is 1000 rounds of mixed calibers a year I would think about buying quality factory rounds.

Take care of the brass and sell it.

There are also brass annealing services that might be an option.
Imho

 

[Kaveman44]

I heard from a lot of top shooters that it was the best, it was at a price where I wouldn’t go broke getting it so I did. Nothing in this sport is really cheap, but with the AMP I don’t have to question if I’m doing it right!

 

[Rocketmandb]

Are people trying to run their torches as low as they can, as far way from the case as they can? I had turn my torch down some the other day in set up because I was torching 223 brass faster than the machine could spit them out. Move that torch in, turn it up, get the hot part on the case, 3-4 seconds, and a case is done. I have a big 24x36 aluminum doe tray that catches the brass as it comes out of the machine. I do worry about a tiny gas flame in my house though. So much so, that every time I leave my house, I go tun off all the pilot lights.

I'm assuming you're talking about the Benchsource. I've always preferred to pull torches back (regardless of device) because if it takes more time to get cases hot, you have more ability to fine tune the amount of heat being applied. I helped a friend with a Benchsource set his up for the first time, and we finagled it to take more like 7 seconds on his 338 cases than the ~3 if the flames are up close. Does it take longer? Of course. But if you're not doing hundreds of cases at a pop, the extra time really isn't meaningful.

 

[rady]

And the debate goes on. I have no problem with that at all. If I'm a dumb ass/douche bag for buying an AMP then so be it. After all, this is the hide and I like the debates................like the one on gouging and the land mine I stepped on there. Ruffled a few there.

I look at this as a newbie to reloading and how I approach things that I'm new at. I try to get the best and what will give me the least amount of grief. Nothing wrong with the homebrew stuff and propane, but it's not the route I chose.

I also look at a purchase and if I can sell it down the road. Who knows, maybe I won't like the AMP and put it up for sale.

 

[Ledzep]

In my personal experience with the AMP,

- It will anneal your necks fairly consistently every time with the same settings
- Sometimes the posted settings are a little hot-- Anneals the necks softer than factory new
- Annealed vs. virgin or 1x fired ES/SD numbers are indistinguishable. AMP annealing will not magically produce better ES than factory annealing lol.
- Annealed vs. 3+x fired ES/SD numbers are slightly better
- Annealed necks will last much longer without cracking. (3-5x or more) Basically the cases' failure mode becomes case head separation as the brass flows instead of split necks.

I would say if you're doing a bunch of small batches of cases at different times, the AMP makes some sense because IME it has been pretty consistent that way. The setup-to-setup consistency is what (in my head, if not in reality) kind of makes me leery of the torch setups. That said, I typically run my cases in 500-1000ct. batches that stay segregated so I really wouldn't mind it either way. Some of the torch setups are cheaper and cycle autonomously, which is nice. The only reason I care is because I've tested various 'degrees' of annealing and found it to affect MV. Not terribly, but it can account for a 10-20fps change in long-term average MV; softer necks causing lower MV avg. Mixing batches (if they're different) could result in worse ES/SD spreads in the overall picture.

 

[Rocketmandb]

like the one on gouging and the land mine I stepped on there. Ruffled a few there.

Let's carry it on here

I look at this as a newbie to reloading and how I approach things that I'm new at. I try to get the best and what will give me the least amount of grief. Nothing wrong with the homebrew stuff and propane, but it's not the route I chose.

And nothing wrong with it at all - if you don't mind spending the $$, and it gives you peace of mind, then go for it. The AMP is a very fine piece of equipment. I think some of the more vitriolic responses you're seeing here stem from the fact that people make claims that if you want things like "true consistency" and "optimize accuracy" (not just in this thread, mind you) then you need to go with an AMP. That is simply not true. By far, the most consistent annealing I got was with my own design of a rotating flame annealing stand with the flames set for about a 10-12 second annealing period per case. I can even make a fact-based argument as to why it even could be slightly more consistent than an AMP in certain circumstances (but I'm not going to). Now, it took practice to get there, while the AMP is an easy button (and faster).

I also look at a purchase and if I can sell it down the road. Who knows, maybe I won't like the AMP and put it up for sale.

I seriously doubt that will be the case. Now, if you need the down payment for that new BMW...

 

[sheepdog697]

At the quantity you shoot absolutely not...

 

[Rocketmandb]

I'm also looking at bullet seating with and arbor press as an added part of my reloading process.

This got missed in all the hubbub. I'm a huge fan of arbor presses for bullet seating (with a force gauge/pack). I've found you get slightly better concentricity (there will be arguments as to whether that matters - let's not go there). The main thing is that the force gauge allows you to:

1) Fine tune your reloading process and see what effects different elements of your process have - this is huge. I have another thread going where I just started publishing the effects of forgoing different things. I'll be doing a fair number of tests and posting them there.

2) Cull out rounds that take a lot more (or less) force to seat bullets into.

Mandrel Musings

When I first got my K&M arbor press for seating, I was somewhat surprised at the spread of the values of force required to seat bullets. Knowing that neck tension plays a significant role in ES/SD, I started doing various things to try to bring seating force in line. I had been doing most my...

www.snipershide.com

 

[rady]

This got missed in all the hubbub. I'm a huge fan of arbor presses for bullet seating (with a force gauge/pack). I've found you get slightly better concentricity (there will be arguments as to whether that matters - let's not go there). The main thing is that the force gauge allows you to:

1) Fine tune your reloading process and see what effects different elements of your process have - this is huge. I have another thread going where I just started publishing the effects of forgoing different things. I'll be doing a fair number of tests and posting them there.

2) Cull out rounds that take a lot more (or less) force to seat bullets into.

Mandrel Musings

When I first got my K&M arbor press for seating, I was somewhat surprised at the spread of the values of force required to seat bullets. Knowing that neck tension plays a significant role in ES/SD, I started doing various things to try to bring seating force in line. I had been doing most my...

www.snipershide.com

Yeah, the gouging topic really got heated up with Orkan and I............Called me a troll, and I guess it was an opportunity to talk about his primer seater. Seemed to take it personal for something that really didn't matter too much to me. Gouging is one of those things in life that is rather nebulous. Ya just know it when you see it. But enough on that, I was still a Hide virgin at the time.

I have been following your post on mandrel musings and that's what kinda got me started on the arbor press. I think one of the big mistakes I made in the beginning was using ss pins when cleaning brass in a tumbler. I didn't think it was going to be a problem and I loved the shinny brass, but now I believe that it messes with the necks as others have pointed out. Not sure if graphite helps or not with that situation. Curious to see what readings I get on ss brass verses new, verses 2-3x fired.

Thanks for your write ups. They really help for newbies like myself. Reloading becomes a fetish with trying to get es's down and groups tight. My wife likes hitting the steel and can't understand why I want to get sooo technical. She may have a point, but it's all part of the journey for me.

 

[davethedog]

I had an annealeeze and a torch before that. Maybe some people can do it quicker than I can, but getting the flame set up right at the right location for each caliber takes some fiddling. Modifying the torch to accept bigger bottles and regulators takes more fiddling and money. To top it all off, I don't want to use flames inside my house both for air quality and safety reasons. My amp sits on the shelf and I can plug it in, screw in the right pilot, and bang out 100 cases very quickly with more consistency than I could otherwise. I do it all in the comfort of my own home and not out in the garage.

 

[supercorndogs]

Air quality and safety concerns. OMG Walley.