Suppressors Help Me Choose My Next Can.

[mebgardner]

There are so many good choices, it's hard for me to choose. I'm now able to say the community has good choices, because we get really good data presented to us by well known and well regarded industry voices. But it can be overwhelming.

Instead of presenting my list of selected devices and asking you for help with a down select on the choices, instead allow me to present a use case and a set of pre-defined "desirements". I think that would help me pick up on something that I might have missed. That's happened recently.

I'm a retired engineer that fusses endlessly about The Details. I was a good engineer. It does not help when faced with so many good choices. I mention this because that experience has taught me that building machines is an exercise in compromise. Tradeoffs.

So, the use case is 30 cal rifle: 308 / 6.5 CM / 6.8 SPC / 300 AAC BLK / 7mm Rem Mag Maybe, but this would be the upper power limit. Not 338 level or above. Range 500-600 yards, no more. No PRS work, but precision is always a bonus. "Only Accurate Rifles Are Interesting", but I dont compete even casually. No Mag Dumps, I dont have access to that level of fun. At the lower end of that power range is the 300 BLK likely on an AR Pistol. This is the Suppressor sub forum, so of course Mouse Farts will be part of the use case. Will it see 556 use? Likely, but not primary. I figure a 30 cal can on a 556 rifle is a safe use case for the can, given the power range already mentioned. Concussion and Recoil Reduction at the range and hunting, and Home Defense indoors on a shorty AR. Thats a pretty broad power spectrum.

A "hard use", or FA rating, is desireable but only from the perspective of less things to remember about a barrel length, or shooting schedule, or things going Tango Uniform because I let it get too hot. Not likely, but also not out of the realm of possibility as my memory gets older. Hard use cans usually get a bigger BC designed into them, and that usually improves suppression performance and opens up the accessory selection some, too. So, thats a trade.

Ti cans are a difficult selection for me right now. I dont have any, and all I have are the YouTubes to judge by. Some Tubers speak to the Ti Sparking Effect. Some say all the cans exhibit this always for the can's lifetime, some say it's a temporary thing (being mostly over and gone after the 200 shot break in period), some say it never goes away. Some say the effect only appears when the can overheats, some say a Hybrid Steel / Ti is The Way. I have face to face discussions with behind the counter experts that I trust that tell me they have witnessed Ti cans ripped apart from abuse (outside schedule conditions). OK, Duh. I dont know what to believe. My Take on Ti cans currently is, I dont have to have this feature of Lightweight in the Tradeoff considerations, OR it can be relatively Low on the Desirements. My Bottom Line on Ti is, I Know I Dont Want to deal with Sparking during some of my Use.

Back Pressure: Im not convinced that High Flow cans are The Way forward. The Tubes I've seen demonstrating them look like there is still plenty of gas in the face while using them. There is likely a recoil and concussion reduction, and there is the feature that says No Rifle Gas Adjustment needed. Which would be good positives. All my stuff has adjustable gas, so this High Flow / Low Back Pressure becomes a Dont Care for the operating system conditions. They are noticably Noisier than other types. That I do care about. If you present a High Flow choice, it will be given equal consideration. I'm Listening.

Hub / Bravo Interface: This is Must Have. The can will not be mounted permanently, but mobile between firearms.

Modular: Pretty much a Dont Care to me. It means more seams that can fail, and O-Ring Maintenance. The plus side of course is, more adjustment choices on a single F4. Thats a pretty good trade.

Suppression: Job One, right? More is better. Of course.

Size: Ah the other side of the Suppression coin. You can play with Physics and try to tame it, but you must play the game. Smaller is better. I would put an outer limit on length at 6", for the can only. Thats a pretty long tube for the lower end of my power use case, with a mounting system in place. Some of these new all-steel designs are approaching Ti can weight, which is good. Weight is a Dont Care. Except if its made from Depleted Uranium. Then You Hump It. Diameter is a Dont Care. Rifle Sights now sit on top of big stilts these days, what with 55mm front objectives and 2" standoffs for AR sights.

User Servicable: Dont Care.

Removeable End Caps: Dont Care.

Dead Air: No Thanks at this time.

Cost: Dont Care. Not Gold Plated, OK?

So, what do you think? What cans should I be considering?

 

[Zak Smith]

6" isn't very long if you want a good level of suppression. Sub 6" is "K" can territory. From our lineup, I'd suggest the Magnus-S. Super strong, good suppression (slightly less than Ultra 9).

 

[Huckmeat]

I own a bunch.

The only cans I ever consider anymore are Thunderbeast. It's simply not worth the time, effort, and tax stamp for anything else. They sponsor shooting sports, have a top rated product, are transparent with their customers and have phenomenal customer service.

Hub is an option. I use their CB brakes but I have a lot of hosts to adorn and have been at it a while.

 

[7mm]

If you get over the TI stuff, SiCo sycthe Ti is super short with a flat front cap and has been said to supress really well.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Dude there’s so many similar threads about the same thing.

Buy a TBAC can with the length and specs you like with the HUB mount and enjoy it.

 

[FuhQ]

TBAC Magnus-S .30 or Otter Creek Labs Hydrogen-S 7.62.

Both are Ti, and a hell of a lot tougher than those lying “behind the counter experts” you’ve talked to, that probably saw that shit on a YouTube torture/abuse video, and then claimed to have “seen it” in person.

I have learned most gun store employees don’t know shit, And if you go in there already researched, and know what you want, instead of letting some 20 year old Gen-Z douche dropout with a mullet, rapestache, and a flat bill hat tell you what is the best, you’ll end up much happier, than listening to them.

 

[Zak Smith]

Here's how durable the Magnus and Dominus lines are:


The only thing that would technically make the HUB version not "full auto" rated is that the HUB mount you screw in there will probably (or at least might) come loose.

 

[143lrsd]

https://silentrex.company.site/

I have several of their cans, some modular, some not. From 22LR to 50 BMG and all have been outstanding with no issues.

 

[mebgardner]

6" isn't very long if you want a good level of suppression. Sub 6" is "K" can territory. From our lineup, I'd suggest the Magnus-S. Super strong, good suppression (slightly less than Ultra 9).

Yup, you're right. But 6" plus the mount gets to be longer than 6. 7" can becomes longer than 7. It's a trade.

Thanks for the reccomendation. TBAC is highly thought of, and so recommended. I thank you for showing up on my thread and offering a selection. Thanks!

 

[D_TROS]

I own a bunch.

The only cans I ever consider anymore are Thunderbeast. It's simply not worth the time, effort, and tax stamp for anything else. They sponsor shooting sports, have a top rated product, are transparent with their customers and have phenomenal customer service.

Hub is an option. I use their CB brakes but I have a lot of hosts to adorn and have been at it a while.

this

and reccomend the ultra 9.

 

[Bluedog82]

I’ve been impressed with my Rex MG7K. One of the cheapest available, full auto rated, no barrel length restrictions, compact, and still sounds good on everything I’ve put through it. I had Ecco Machine upgrade mine to use Dead Air End caps.

 

[mebgardner]

If you get over the TI stuff, SiCo sycthe Ti is super short with a flat front cap and has been said to supress really well.

Tell me it's not going to spark for it's life, help me believe that, and I will consider it.

I think about the Ti and my use case. They tend to be expensive, but thats a Don't Care. They have a temperature envelope that must be managed, and that is Def a Care.

The sparking business I'm most sensitive to at night, and possibly prone in tall grass. Yes we have dry grass covered arroyo here in So. AZ.

A big bloom of sparks announcing "I'm Over Here" is Out. Make it from DU, then CNC carve it like plutonium. Charge me $5K. Fine.

Edit: That thought made me wonder if 3D printing of Plutonium is a thing yet?

 

[WindstormSCR]

Here's how durable the Magnus and Dominus lines are:


The only thing that would technically make the HUB version not "full auto" rated is that the HUB mount you screw in there will probably (or at least might) come loose.

and that's why they make rocksett!

ofc it's done with the assumption that the can isn't going to see any other attachment method for a very long time

 

[mebgardner]

TBAC Magnus-S .30 or Otter Creek Labs Hydrogen-S 7.62.

Both are Ti, and a hell of a lot tougher than those lying “behind the counter experts” you’ve talked to, that probably saw that shit on a YouTube torture/abuse video, and then claimed to have “seen it” in person.

I have learned most gun store employees don’t know shit, And if you go in there already researched, and know what you want, instead of letting some 20 year old Gen-Z douche dropout with a mullet, rapestache, and a flat bill hat tell you what is the best, you’ll end up much happier, than listening to them.

I understand this point of view. My go-to behind the counter lives the talk, and rocks the fun stuff. He's been very patient with me. Much like you folk!

Andrew at OCL has also been patient with me. He helped me while I was choosing for 9mm pistol, and his Lithium can won. Very nice! I'm thinking of waiting for his latest work, not yet released.

The Ti choices are still a tough sell to me. No one will say without doubt: "Sparking is done at X number of rounds." I'm being firm on this point.

Show me some non Ti choices, please.

 

[FuhQ]

I understand this point of view. My go-to behind the counter lives the talk, and rocks the fun stuff. He's been very patient with me. Much like you folk!

Andrew at OCL has also been patient with me. He helped me while I was choosing for 9mm pistol, and his Lithium can won. Very nice! I'm thinking of waiting for his latest work, not yet released.

The Ti choices are still a tough sell to me. No one will say without doubt: "Sparking is done at X number of rounds." I'm being firm on this point.

Show me some non Ti choices, please.

Talk to Andrew about the sparking and the Hydrogen series cans. I think you’ll like his answer. Mine don’t spark to my knowledge, or on any videos I’ve taken, even on big sparking. Usually that’s only when you get them above a certain temp, that you shouldn’t be getting a Ti can up to. A lot of the spark debate is kind of the blind leading the blind (personal opinion).

I’ve been on both sides of that gun counter, and I promise you, neither side will leave you much faith in humanity, especially your average hunter.

 

[Mr. F]

There are so many good choices, it's hard for me to choose. I'm now able to say the community has good choices, because we get really good data presented to us by well known and well regarded industry voices. But it can be overwhelming.

Instead of presenting my list of selected devices and asking you for help with a down select on the choices, instead allow me to present a use case and a set of pre-defined "desirements". I think that would help me pick up on something that I might have missed. That's happened recently.

I'm a retired engineer that fusses endlessly about The Details. I was a good engineer. It does not help when faced with so many good choices. I mention this because that experience has taught me that building machines is an exercise in compromise. Tradeoffs.

So, the use case is 30 cal rifle: 308 / 6.5 CM / 6.8 SPC / 300 AAC BLK / 7mm Rem Mag Maybe, but this would be the upper power limit. Not 338 level or above. Range 500-600 yards, no more. No PRS work, but precision is always a bonus. "Only Accurate Rifles Are Interesting", but I dont compete even casually. No Mag Dumps, I dont have access to that level of fun. At the lower end of that power range is the 300 BLK likely on an AR Pistol. This is the Suppressor sub forum, so of course Mouse Farts will be part of the use case. Will it see 556 use? Likely, but not primary. I figure a 30 cal can on a 556 rifle is a safe use case for the can, given the power range already mentioned. Concussion and Recoil Reduction at the range and hunting, and Home Defense indoors on a shorty AR. Thats a pretty broad power spectrum.

A "hard use", or FA rating, is desireable but only from the perspective of less things to remember about a barrel length, or shooting schedule, or things going Tango Uniform because I let it get too hot. Not likely, but also not out of the realm of possibility as my memory gets older. Hard use cans usually get a bigger BC designed into them, and that usually improves suppression performance and opens up the accessory selection some, too. So, thats a trade.

Ti cans are a difficult selection for me right now. I dont have any, and all I have are the YouTubes to judge by. Some Tubers speak to the Ti Sparking Effect. Some say all the cans exhibit this always for the can's lifetime, some say it's a temporary thing (being mostly over and gone after the 200 shot break in period), some say it never goes away. Some say the effect only appears when the can overheats, some say a Hybrid Steel / Ti is The Way. I have face to face discussions with behind the counter experts that I trust that tell me they have witnessed Ti cans ripped apart from abuse (outside schedule conditions). OK, Duh. I dont know what to believe. My Take on Ti cans currently is, I dont have to have this feature of Lightweight in the Tradeoff considerations, OR it can be relatively Low on the Desirements. My Bottom Line on Ti is, I Know I Dont Want to deal with Sparking during some of my Use.

Back Pressure: Im not convinced that High Flow cans are The Way forward. The Tubes I've seen demonstrating them look like there is still plenty of gas in the face while using them. There is likely a recoil and concussion reduction, and there is the feature that says No Rifle Gas Adjustment needed. Which would be good positives. All my stuff has adjustable gas, so this High Flow / Low Back Pressure becomes a Dont Care for the operating system conditions. They are noticably Noisier than other types. That I do care about. If you present a High Flow choice, it will be given equal consideration. I'm Listening.

Hub / Bravo Interface: This is Must Have. The can will not be mounted permanently, but mobile between firearms.

Modular: Pretty much a Dont Care to me. It means more seams that can fail, and O-Ring Maintenance. The plus side of course is, more adjustment choices on a single F4. Thats a pretty good trade.

Suppression: Job One, right? More is better. Of course.

Size: Ah the other side of the Suppression coin. You can play with Physics and try to tame it, but you must play the game. Smaller is better. I would put an outer limit on length at 6", for the can only. Thats a pretty long tube for the lower end of my power use case, with a mounting system in place. Some of these new all-steel designs are approaching Ti can weight, which is good. Weight is a Dont Care. Except if its made from Depleted Uranium. Then You Hump It. Diameter is a Dont Care. Rifle Sights now sit on top of big stilts these days, what with 55mm front objectives and 2" standoffs for AR sights.

User Servicable: Dont Care.

Removeable End Caps: Dont Care.

Dead Air: No Thanks at this time.

Cost: Dont Care. Not Gold Plated, OK?

So, what do you think? What cans should I be considering?

If you re detailed oriented, look no further.

THEOREM-L

A 30 caliber suppressor made out of 100% titanium that is designed to have peak performance and look incredible.

abelcousa.com

 

[mebgardner]

6" isn't very long if you want a good level of suppression. Sub 6" is "K" can territory. From our lineup, I'd suggest the Magnus-S. Super strong, good suppression (slightly less than Ultra 9).

Talk to me about what I could expect for Sparks, for the Magnus-S. Please set my expectation at the can's rated temperature or below. That is, assume I will not exceed it's rated temperature profile. Use a 308 power level. Assume we're talking about after break-in, say 200 rds. Is that fair?

 

[mebgardner]

If you get over the TI stuff, SiCo sycthe Ti is super short with a flat front cap and has been said to supress really well.

I have been on the phone with SiCo support. They told me it would continue to spark after the break in period. I assumed they were talking about the can being kept below its rated temperature profile. They said it would never go away. At that point, I was done with this choice.

Convince me otherwise. I'm being stubborn and vocal about this point, because I'm trying to be transparent about that I have a very low tolerance for this "feature". If I keep my end up, then If it sparks, I'm Out.

 

[Zak Smith]

Talk to me about what I could expect for Sparks, for the Magnus-S. Please set my expectation at the can's rated temperature or below. That is, assume I will not exceed it's rated temperature profile. Use a 308 power level. Assume we're talking about after break-in, say 200 rds. Is that fair?

Longer barrels have minimal sparking, but you might still see a couple "streaks" if you do a time exposure. Sparking is highly dependent upon type of ammo (ie, powder type) and barrel length (shorter SBR's being worse).

 

[mebgardner]

Mine don’t spark to my knowledge, or on any videos I’ve taken, ""even on big sparking.""

Uh, sorry. I did not follow this too well.

Usually that’s only when you get them above a certain temp, that you shouldn’t be getting a Ti can up to. A lot of the spark debate is kind of the blind leading the blind (personal opinion).

"Blind leading the Blind..." That's Funny! We're talking about Sound, and I keep going on about Light! I agree about it being personal opinion, it is kinda relative.

I keep harping on this point, because when it's bad, it appears to be Really Bad. It's a literal shower out the muzzle end of the can. Flash Hiders are ineffective against it, they dont cover it.

Genuinely, I dont feel that I need to have a Ti can. I get that most new stack designs are being made in Ti. It's likely because the paying customers want lighter stuff to hump around. I find it incredible that a baffle can be implemented in the stuff, it's incredibly difficult to machine.

What I really want is Quiet, and Strong. If I can have those features, without the sparking, and the only way to be assured that it does not spark is to use Steel, then OK so be that I'll get a Steel unit.

But, you're indicating that I should continue to pay attention to Ti because I can "have it all". It's Quiet (relatively, there's that Physics thing again), it's Strong, and It Wont Spark Much if at all (after break-in period, and kept within operating regime.) I think I'm also reading, maybe between the lines a bit, that this experience of seeing sparking is not your experience. Sparking is not occurring for you / to you. So, I got to be blunt a little, and I hope we have enough water here between us for it to pass. I know you have a voice of authority here, I'm keenly sensitive to that fact. Tell me you also have a voice of experience with these new designs, implemented in Ti, spanning more than one product. Say authoritively that I should not concern myself because these recommended choices will not exhibit much sparking, when approaching their high temp end of their operating regime.

Be my leading light. I'm listening.

 

[mebgardner]

Longer barrels have minimal sparking, but you might still see a couple "streaks" if you do a time exposure. Sparking is highly dependent upon type of ammo (ie, powder type) and barrel length (shorter SBR's being worse).

Thank You for your candor. Would a Steel blast baffle / first baffle mitigate any, most, or all of this?

I certainly appreciate your time, and your patience with me. You have the experience I'm looking to learn from.

 

[mebgardner]

Here's how durable the Magnus and Dominus lines are:


The only thing that would technically make the HUB version not "full auto" rated is that the HUB mount you screw in there will probably (or at least might) come loose.

Would have really liked to see the camera looking "into" the room, not out the major bright window. the rifle back into the room some too, so we could see the flash or sparks effect against a dark wall. I have No Doubt this is a strong, quiet can. None.

 

[Zak Smith]

We did some testing around that and I can't exactly remember the result; however, I think the conclusion was you couldn't just do the first baffle or two. The problem is you can't weld ti to steel so you end up invalidating the strongest and most efficient construction that way.

We recently did testing for bolt guns and concluded that even with high ISO timed exposures that captured the entire event, reasonably long barrel lengths (18-20+) and medium size cans (ie, Magnus-S) basically had no sparking when using quality ammo.

Switch to shit-tier M193 from a 14.5" and there will be sparks everywhere.

 

[Zak Smith]

As a follow-up, if there's a specific test or combination you'd like us to do a timed exposure of, we can probably fit it into the range/test schedule.

 

[mebgardner]

As a follow-up, if there's a specific test or combination you'd like us to do a timed exposure of, we can probably fit it into the range/test schedule.

Wow. That is a tremendous offer. I will belly navel contemplate a bit, see if I can come up with something constructive. Thank You!

 

[mebgardner]

We did some testing around that and I can't exactly remember the result; however, I think the conclusion was you couldn't just do the first baffle or two. The problem is you can't weld ti to steel so you end up invalidating the strongest and most efficient construction that way.

We recently did testing for bolt guns and concluded that even with high ISO timed exposures that captured the entire event, reasonably long barrel lengths (18-20+) and medium size cans (ie, Magnus-S) basically had no sparking when using quality ammo.

Switch to shit-tier M193 from a 14.5" and there will be sparks everywhere.

This is what I needed to read. To clarify, the "sparks everywhere" scenario have the sparks occurring from the Ti elements reacting with the stuff that makes the Ti react. Hot gas, burning powder, etc. That is, the sparks are occurring mainly from reacting Ti, and not the other stuff. Yes?

 

[Zak Smith]

I'll see if we have data on that. My interpretation is that either it's the powder itself or some aspect of the powder-burning result from "worse" ammo makes the ti spark more. Normally those small spark trails would be subsumed by the rest of the muzzle blast flash and you wouldn't see them. Using good ammo (e.g. Mk318 or Hornady SBR) there a lot less.

FWIW, I've never seen any ti sparking (ie, K can on a MK18) under nods when I'm the shooter, only if I'm a third party directly observing another shooter. About the only guns I've seen sparks or flash in the nods from the shooter POV is a comped pistol.

But like I said, a test with objective data is much better than 2 people's subjective opinions, and these things do vary quite a bit depending on factors besides just which suppressor

 

[kthomas]

Abel Co Theorem or TBAC Magnus.

If you're in Tucson, you can shoot my Abel Co Biscuit (it's a steel can) if you want.

 

[FuhQ]

Based on my experiences, what you want doesn't really exist. To elaborate on what Zak was saying, I have seen plenty of sparks flying out of my Sandman-S cans (stainless steel w/ inconel baffles) on my 14.5" M4 with shitty Tula steel case ammo, and definitely on my 7.5" 5.56 pistol. The 7.5" still shoots a nice flame every few rounds from the unburnt powder. But I was under the impression we were talking about high-quality handloads in longer barrel (20+") bolt-action rifles using decent powder.

In other words, it has more to do with the ammo and barrel length, than what the can is made from. Ti may have some very slight sparks after "break-in", but I've never heard of anyone starting a brush fire from sparks from a Ti can after taking a few shots...

Also, my area of experience is not limited to one brand/product. I have 13 suppressors, from 4 different manufactures with many different models, made from different materials (Ti, Ti & Stainless, stainless, Stainless & Inconel, and stainless & aluminum), ranging from .22LR up to .300 RUM/Norma, and pistol cartridges. I'm not trying to say I'm some sort of expert, because I'm not. I'm just saying I have much more experience than just one model of the OCL suppressors.

I'm done after this post, I think you're chasing nonexistent rabbits down an infinite black hole. I just wanted to make this post to try to help elaborate on what Zak was saying about how it's more the gun, cartridge, barrel length and powder/ammo you use that makes the most difference...Not the material the can is made from.

 

[mebgardner]

I'll see if we have data on that.

Thank You.

My interpretation is that either it's the powder itself or some aspect of the powder-burning result from "worse" ammo makes the ti spark more. Normally those small spark trails would be subsumed by the rest of the muzzle blast flash and you wouldn't see them. Using good ammo (e.g. Mk318 or Hornady SBR) there a lot less.

This is news. I expected the suppressor to absorb almost all the muzzle blast flash in SBR barrel lengths (appropriate length to caliber). I had an expectation formed recently that Ti residue showing as sparking was unmanaged by the generator (the can), and not manageable by a flash hider device or the suppressor. So, this expectation on my part, has now changed.

FWIW, I've never seen any ti sparking (ie, K can on a MK18) under nods when I'm the shooter, only if I'm a third party directly observing another shooter. About the only guns I've seen sparks or flash in the nods from the shooter POV is a comped pistol.

Good to know!

... these things do vary quite a bit depending on factors besides just which suppressor

Yes, understood.

 

[tlg308]

Really like the Abel Co Theorem L. The machine quality is insane. Check out the TBAC silencer summit data (really well put together). The Theorem was 2nd in at ear numbers..

 

[carbonbased]

OP, all your sparking talk makes me think you are watching rounds being shot through 3D printed cans on YT.

Why? Because they spark a fair bit and it is said they will spark less as the little debris left over from printing burns off.

Now, I haven’t shot at night but I’ve never seen a spark coming out of my non-3D printed titanium can.

If you want the most flash suppression, something like a Surefire RC2 (standard SS construction) or possibly the 3D printed RC3 (after the detritus has burned off) might be the ticket. Jury is out on the RC3, but the track record is good.

This guy has some nice examples at night:

https://m.youtube.com/@RooftopDefense/videos

Look for the “Suppressor Stuff” titles. I believe all his cans are brand new, so that’ll skew things a bit for the 3D printed cans (more sparks).

Make sure to watch Ep.1 too.

 

[carbonbased]

Oh yeah, the Knight's Armament 556QDC/CRS-PRT also seemed to test out well in the flash suppression test in the above link.

 

[Cypress87]

If you want the bleeding edge in bending the laws of physics to your will…you should wait till the 29th of February for the CAT JL….id go titanium but that’s just me.

 

[mebgardner]

Abel Co Theorem or TBAC Magnus.

If you're in Tucson, you can shoot my Abel Co Biscuit (it's a steel can) if you want.

This is a very kind and generous offer. I hope to see you at the Tucson Mountain Park range. I hope to be there tomorrow.

 

[AznTactical]

I bought my 5th suppressor in December. Cost was #1 factor closely followed by weight and suppression level. I wanted up to .30 cal, direct thread and removable end caps. Length and diameter was NOT critical to me.
I used TB's Summit test and sorted .30 cal cans shooting .308 from quietest to loudest sorted by SE DB which is Shooter's Ear db ratings. It lead me to Diligent Defense's Enticer LTi. https://thunderbeastarms.com/sound/summit2023/

 

[mebgardner]

OP, all your sparking talk makes me think you are watching rounds being shot through 3D printed cans on YT.

Why? Because they spark a fair bit and it is said they will spark less as the little debris left over from printing burns off.

I dont know enough about that new build process (3D Printing) to speak authoritatively about it, to know if that is indeed the case with that build process compared to Tubeless / Welded. Sounds Reasonable.

Now, I haven’t shot at night but I’ve never seen a spark coming out of my non-3D printed titanium can.

If you want the most flash suppression, something like a Surefire RC2 (standard SS construction) or possibly the 3D printed RC3 (after the detritus has burned off) might be the ticket. Jury is out on the RC3, but the track record is good.

This guy has some nice examples at night:

https://m.youtube.com/@RooftopDefense/videos

Look for the “Suppressor Stuff” titles. I believe all his cans are brand new, so that’ll skew things a bit for the 3D printed cans (more sparks).

Make sure to watch Ep.1 too.

Before I enquired here, I searched for examples of my downselected choices being fired under nods, or just screwing around at night. Most all of the example YTubes I watched were in daytime, and the camera used at an angle that masks the spark effect. Not Intentionally, just not in a manner that would have made someone paying attention say "A-Ha! There Be Sparks!". Camera behind shooter, off at an angle. Bright background at muzzle. So, I looked. Sparks hide well in daytime. There were a couple YTs taken at night, showing the comparative flash fireball of various suppressor and barrel lengths. But not filmed in a manner that would have highlighted the spark effect. From a distance downrange, looking towards shooter. A few pixels in size (compared to frame size). They were demonstrations of relative flash suppression.

The point is, I did not see anything casual or comprehensive, specifically regarding the effect I wanted to know more about. That's when I decided I needed professional help. (Lord, do I need help!).

Zac from TBAC has been very kind and patient with me. Andrew at OCL has been as well. The learning ladder for these new Ti cans is steep, Im an old dog learning new tricks.

 

[hlee]

I don’t think it’s been mentioned- then again I just skimmed the thread- but the YHM R2 is a good budget option. Stainless steel construction. 13 oz, though it is ~7” long. 300 RUM rated. Full auto rated. Street price of ~$700 including mount, hub adapter, and assembly tools.

 

[mebgardner]

Based on my experiences, what you want doesn't really exist. To elaborate on what Zak was saying, I have seen plenty of sparks flying out of my Sandman-S cans (stainless steel w/ inconel baffles) on my 14.5" M4 with shitty Tula steel case ammo, and definitely on my 7.5" 5.56 pistol. The 7.5" still shoots a nice flame every few rounds from the unburnt powder. But I was under the impression we were talking about high-quality handloads in longer barrel (20+") bolt-action rifles using decent powder.

In other words, it has more to do with the ammo and barrel length, than what the can is made from. Ti may have some very slight sparks after "break-in", but I've never heard of anyone starting a brush fire from sparks from a Ti can after taking a few shots...

Also, my area of experience is not limited to one brand/product. I have 13 suppressors, from 4 different manufactures with many different models, made from different materials (Ti, Ti & Stainless, stainless, Stainless & Inconel, and stainless & aluminum), ranging from .22LR up to .300 RUM/Norma, and pistol cartridges. I'm not trying to say I'm some sort of expert, because I'm not. I'm just saying I have much more experience than just one model of the OCL suppressors.

I'm done after this post, I think you're chasing nonexistent rabbits down an infinite black hole. I just wanted to make this post to try to help elaborate on what Zak was saying about how it's more the gun, cartridge, barrel length and powder/ammo you use that makes the most difference...Not the material the can is made from.

This is very helpful. I appreciate you, and the time you have taken for me. This chasing the non-existent rabbit has happened before, I get so wrapped in detail that I first full stop, then try to fight back out of the mess I have made. It happens.

I have a handful of these things, but none in Ti. Bought over the years. Now converting to HUB / Bravo.

Tell you what, dont leave just yet. Let me ask a favor. Zak has generously opened the door to a possible experiment that would quantify the spark effect, if I read the offer right. Help me design the experiment. You're the perfect guy for me to ask for this help. What say you, are you interested in knowing more about it? We might get industry support if we come up with some useful method. Questions like "Are 3D cans more susceptible to this effect?"

My expectations of a Ti can are now better refined in this regard. You have helped me, and I'm thankful. Thats my bottom line.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

From a company/manufacturer stance, you are the type of customer they'd rather just avoid. If Zak does help you in any way, past what he already has in this thread, he's a better man than most.

 

[Zak Smith]

I offered to shoot a few combinations of gun/can/ammo and take timed exposures the next time we're doing it.

 

[mebgardner]

I offered to shoot a few combinations of gun/can/ammo and take timed exposures the next time we're doing it.

OK. How about short videos instead of snap shot time exposures?

Bring the muzzle into the room, shooting out a window. Camera POV looking from front of muzzle back to shooter. 45 - 60 deg angle from line of fire (mid to well off center, but not direct side view). Camera should be directed at an interior wall somewhat darkened or at least no direct sunlight on it (so the camera will record the flash). Pick a distance that seems safe and appropriate from muzzle end.

Use an SBR, appropriate to whatever ammo you choose. Use dirty to clean burning ammo. Use a firing schedule you deem appropriate. Pick a methodology that you believe will highlight how little sparking is present, relative to fireball.

Use mid tier size cans. Not K, not Ultra. S or L seems mid size. I think K will show all fireball, and Ultra / Long Magnus will show little to no fireball.

Use TBAC Ti cans. This is an ad for TBAC, after all. Use cans that are after break in period. If you have a same model, same length series of can that are in different stages of life cycle, that would be best, I think. If not, shoot what you brung and describe what it is.

Use your judgment about can temperature reigme. What do you want to show? Sparking under / during hard use, or during hunting use schedule? A relatively hot can, or something well below schedule threshold?

I think that's all I come up with. The amount of material videoed, and what you choose to show is of course up to you. I'm thinking it's going to show results that are exactly what you folks have been telling me to expect. In any case, I think we can all learn something and make it well known that TBAC cans are the best in this regard. Someone like me questioning new designs, new materials and new build methods, can be reassured. Right?

Thank You Very Much for this consideration, Zac. You may choose to not do this, or scale it to something smaller, some level of effort you had in mind. This is just me thinking out loud, in public.

My bottom line is, Thank You for all you do here.

 

[mebgardner]

From a company/manufacturer stance, you are the type of customer they'd rather just avoid. If Zak does help you in any way, past what he already has in this thread, he's a better man than most.

I know. You're right on all counts.

However, I am also willing to give back too.

I can program fluid dynamics algorithms. Im an advanced programmer, and I understand newtonian physics. That's what this science is, the study of air pumps and fluid dynamics. These devices can be thought of as a 2 stroke air pumps (an engine) on the exhaust stroke. Or, a 4 cycle engine on the exhaust stroke. Said another way, there are lots of well designed, mature algorithms that can be useful to model the next gen stacks. Possibly optimized under AI control conducting the Monte Carlo test regime for the stack optimization.

In other words, I'm not useless here.

 

[mebgardner]

I'm going to try to reinforce my case here. Call out my BS as you see it. Here's the scenario:

I'm an an armorer with purse string in a command structure. A decision maker for purchases. I'm trying to decide if this new material should be considered for procurement. New materials. New manufacturing processes. New designs. It feels like all the balls are in the air. I'm trying to decide if there is a threat to my troops during the time these new materials are generating sparks. The cans are already under blankets for lowered detection by enemy thermal. Thermal Bloom from fireball is studied and fairly well known. Now there's this new thing, sparks. Will it be detectable or possibly additive to the fireball, thought to be well controlled by the can? Who do I turn to to find out?

How do you like me now?

 

[Zak Smith]

That's a little dramatic. Titanium cans have been around for at least 20 years, so they aren't exactly new. The military lab and/or procurement guys typically have their own flash testing protocols that aren't made public. There is more going on around this topic that it's not my place to disclose.

 

[mebgardner]

Yeah, I took a risk.

But those other ideas, that's genuine. If you're not using fluid dynamics algorithms to assist advancing your designs, you're leaving powerful tools on the table. It's highly likely AI can be used to help narrow the scope of the optimization job via performing the Monte Carlo testing in a more efficient manner. That's not drama, that's for real. I genuinely hope that helps you. Hire the kid from college to help sort it out.

 

[Zak Smith]

Welcome to like a decade ago.

 

[Cypress87]

Yeah, I took a risk.

But those other ideas, that's genuine. If you're not using fluid dynamics algorithms to assist advancing your designs, you're leaving powerful tools on the table. It's highly likely AI can be used to help narrow the scope of the optimization job via performing the Monte Carlo testing in a more efficient manner. That's not drama, that's for real. I genuinely hope that helps you. Hire the kid from college to help sort it out.

People are doing that…3d printing crazy internal geometry, designed by AI, to mitigate blast propagation. They even have it specified for the round itself, meaning the internal geometry is going to be different for .308, than 5.56 for the most efficient design…so a one size fits all silencer is taking all that r&d and chunking it in the garbage bin, might as well buy a plain ole form1 kit and drill some holes.

 

[mebgardner]

Here's how durable the Magnus and Dominus lines are:


The only thing that would technically make the HUB version not "full auto" rated is that the HUB mount you screw in there will probably (or at least might) come loose.

Zac, I do not see a thermal thermometer in the frame during these test procedures. At the mag dump point, when that section is completed and the can is visibly glowing. What do you estimate the surface temperature of the can to be? Also, can you estimate the time between major test sections? That is, the cooling off time, what would that have been approximately? If it is applicable, please comment on the actual temperatures reached during the testing .vs the firing schedule of the can, for those test operations. I'm desiring to know if the can was treated to excursions past its written firing schedule limits. At the time of the testing, do you know at what point in the life span of the can it was at? Was it 1K rounds into its life? 10K rounds into it?

It is a durable piece of kit, no question. These questions speak to that aspect of it.

Thanks.

 

[LeftyJason]

OK. How about short videos instead of snap shot time exposures?

Bring the muzzle into the room, shooting out a window. Camera POV looking from front of muzzle back to shooter. 45 - 60 deg angle from line of fire (mid to well off center, but not direct side view). Camera should be directed at an interior wall somewhat darkened or at least no direct sunlight on it (so the camera will record the flash). Pick a distance that seems safe and appropriate from muzzle end.

Use an SBR, appropriate to whatever ammo you choose. Use dirty to clean burning ammo. Use a firing schedule you deem appropriate. Pick a methodology that you believe will highlight how little sparking is present, relative to fireball.

Use mid tier size cans. Not K, not Ultra. S or L seems mid size. I think K will show all fireball, and Ultra / Long Magnus will show little to no fireball.

Use TBAC Ti cans. This is an ad for TBAC, after all. Use cans that are after break in period. If you have a same model, same length series of can that are in different stages of life cycle, that would be best, I think. If not, shoot what you brung and describe what it is.

Use your judgment about can temperature reigme. What do you want to show? Sparking under / during hard use, or during hunting use schedule? A relatively hot can, or something well below schedule threshold?

I think that's all I come up with. The amount of material videoed, and what you choose to show is of course up to you. I'm thinking it's going to show results that are exactly what you folks have been telling me to expect. In any case, I think we can all learn something and make it well known that TBAC cans are the best in this regard. Someone like me questioning new designs, new materials and new build methods, can be reassured. Right?

Thank You Very Much for this consideration, Zac. You may choose to not do this, or scale it to something smaller, some level of effort you had in mind. This is just me thinking out loud, in public.

My bottom line is, Thank You for all you do here.

Video frame refresh rate is why he said timed exposures. Ever seen videos of somebody shooting full auto and seen some fireballs on some shots and not others? Why is that? Because that fireball was in between what could be caught. If you do a timed exposure you can catch everything that happens. If there is a spark timed longer exposures will catch it. No hiding with that.

Some examples from the internet with flowing water.

Also look up light painting photography.