Help me find a rifle with my requrements

[henschman]

I am on an ongoing quest to own the most capable battle rifle available. I am willing to spend the necessary dough to get what I want, within reasonable limits. I have some requirements that I'd like to see in a battle rifle, and I was wanting your input on what the most feasable way to put together such a rifle would be.

I really like the die-hard reliability of the gas piston designs like the M-14, and I love the long yet light profile barrel, low overall weight, and outstanding iron sights and sight radius that the M-14 offers. However, I also love the accuracy potential of the AR upper receiver design. I also love the ergonomics and drop-free mags that the AR design offers, and the ease of mounting optics and iron sights of a flat top (I have a TA-55A ACOG with the 7.62 BDC that I just love).

However, I have not been able to find something that would easily fit my bill.

The role I would like this rifle to fill would be use in the field under less than ideal conditions, sometimes seeing heavy use in between cleanings, maintained in the field, using primarily surplus ammo, being used primarily from sling-supported field positions, taking shots mostly in the 300-800 yard range.

I would like a rifle with the following features:

- 7.62x51 caliber
- Reliable gas-piston operation
- Reciprocating bolt handle
- AR-style upper receiver design, or something with similar accuracy potential
- At least a 20" chrome-lined barrel (22" would be preferable)with profile similar to GI M-14 barrel
- Overall unloaded weight of less than 10 lbs.
- Iron sight radius at least as long as a standard 20" barreled rifle-length AR
- Easy to mount optics like an ACOG
- Decent length handguards, similar in length to standard 20" barreled rifle-length AR handguards

So what do you think? What is the easiest/cheapest/most feasable way into a rifle that fits these criteria?

Feel free to argue with me on why my criteria are stupid, etc.

 

[TacBlade]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

You could build it? I have built several AR15's and just finished my first .308 build and it shoots great! You can spend as much or as less as you want and have exactly what you need!

 

[Strangedays]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

I would say buy an M1A since a M14 is something I doubt you can get your hands on. The EBR stock is great also for those rifles. I like the DPMS LR-308 rifles which sounds like it would fit what you want more just without the piston system. If you must have piston and keep it within a low budget buy a FAL. If you want everything that you asked for above then buy a POF.
JMHO

 

[henschman]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

The POF P308 does not have a reciprocating charging handle, and even the 20" barreled version has a carbine-length handguard and gas system, so it does not meet my sight radius and handguard length requirements... aside from just looking silly with that short little handguard and that long barrel sticking out of it. It does meet my weight requirement, though.

I had a DPMS LR-308C (their version with the 20" barrel), and it was way too heavy. It had a beast of a barrel under those handguards, in classic DPMS fashion. It was accurate, but did not have the kind of reliability I am looking for. It does not have a reciprocating bolt handle and a gas piston. I sold that rifle to buy my M1A.

The EBR stock for an M-14/M1A does add the accuracy I'm looking for and makes optics easier to mount, but it puts the rifle outside of my weight requirements. I have ordered an Vltor Modstock for my M1A (which has been on back order for about 3 months). It is my current favorite battle rifle design, though I am eagerly looking forward to someone coming out with one that surpasses it. Unfortunately I haven't seen it yet. You'd think we would have come up with something better since 1956.

With the Vltor Modstock, my M1A will meet all the requirements except for that it will not be capable of the type of accuracy that an AR-type rifle will. Not without glass bedding it, which I am not willing to do to my field rifle.

My current plan is to keep my M1A as my go-to battle rifle, with a healthy stock of spare GI parts to keep her running, but the purpose of this post is to see if anyone can recommend me something that does everything this rifle will in a more inherently accurate AR-type platform (which one would thingk should also be capable of being lighter weight, being that it is made out of aluminum, whereas an M1A is made out of steel). As I said, I have not found anything yet that fits the bill, but I am open to ideas.

 

[KillShot]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: henschman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...the purpose of this post is to see if anyone can recommend me something that does everything this rifle will in a more inherently accurate AR-type platform (which one would think should also be capable of being lighter weight, being that it is made out of aluminum, whereas an M1A is made out of steel). As I said, I have not found anything yet that fits the bill, but I am open to ideas.</div></div>

As the guy said previously, get a POF P-308. Problem solved.

 

[neeley205]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

High accuracy and light weight usually only happen with the proper application of money in an AR. You may want to really consider the already suggested POF or possibly LMT. You seem to want the accuracy and length of a full size battle rifle (20+ barrel sight radius), but the weight of a short carbine. That's only going to be accomplished with a fairly thin barrel priofile. You may just want to contact a hide sponsor AR builder and talk to them so they can give you some realistic options in their sphere of availability. By asking on here like this your going to get mostly people wondering why your just not buying a LMT or POF. And I'm not sure why you specifically want a .308 bolt handle that reciprocates while firing. Guys that used to have to use those didn't call them "meat hammers" for no good reason. They are not well thought of by most people who use them. If your in an akward firing position and one catches your arm its not exactly going to help your situation. I'm am in NO WAY critisizing your criteria, just hope you find what your looking for.

 

[henschman]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nly205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">High accuracy and light weight usually only happen with the proper application of money in an AR. You may want to really consider the already suggested POF or possibly LMT. You seem to want the accuracy and length of a full size battle rifle (20+ barrel sight radius), but the weight of a short carbine. That's only going to be accomplished with a fairly thin barrel priofile. You may just want to contact a hide sponsor AR builder and talk to them so they can give you some realistic options in their sphere of availability. By asking on here like this your going to get mostly people wondering why your just not buying a LMT or POF. And I'm not sure why you specifically want a .308 bolt handle that reciprocates while firing. Guys that used to have to use those didn't call them "meat hammers" for no good reason. They are not well thought of by most people who use them. If your in an akward firing position and one catches your arm its not exactly going to help your situation. I'm am in NO WAY critisizing your criteria, just hope you find what your looking for. </div></div>

Hey, criticism of my criteria is exactly what I'm looking for... the factors I have listed are what I have come to value in a rifle through my shooting and marksmanship experience, but I welcome the opinions of other, possibly more experienced shooters who have different opinions. The reason I said that I want a reciprocating bolt handle is because it is easier to clear malfunctions when you can quickly apply direct mechanical force to the bolt in either direction. No half-assed forward assist, and no weak one-way T-handle... just slap that bolt forward, or rack it to the rear, whatever the situation may require. Reciprocating bolts are not thought of well by most who've used them? That's not been my experience. I've talked to a lot of gentlemen who saw combat with M-1s and M-14s, and every one of them I have talked to love those rifles. The ones I know who were in Nam and had to turn in their "meat hammer" M-14s for M-16s greatly preferred the former. Maybe it's more of a generational thing.

I put my max weight limit at 10 lbs., because a GI M-14 weighs 9.3 lbs., and that is with a 22" barrel. I don't want a rifle that weighs too much more than an M-14. I realize that to get the weight I want, I need a thinner-profile barrel. That is exactly what I want. M-14s with GI barrels will shoot 1 minute or less after they have been bedded and had the gas system unitized. I would think an AR that doesn't have to be bedded/unitized would be able to achieve similar results with a similar profile barrel.

I'm actually not too worried about barrel profile, because if I find a rifle that otherwise meets my criteria but has too heavy of a barrel, I can have the barrel turned down, or buy a custom after-market barrel.

The closest thing I've seen to what I want is the FN SCAR with the 20" barrel. It is actually a lightweight profile barrel, and the rifle is less than 9 lbs., which is amazing. It has gas piston operation and a reciprocating bolt handle. However, no matter what the barrel length is, it only comes with that stubby carbine handguard, and it is therefore stuck with a stubby carbine's sight radius, completely wasting all that barrel out there that a sight could be mounted to. Iron sights are extremely important to me.

The POF P308 has the same problem... no matter what the barrel length, it is only available with those short little handguards... though they appear to be slightly longer than the SCAR's. However, it has a a standard AR charging handle and forward assist setup instead of a reciprocating charging handle.

I guess I could mount a custom front sight tower out on the end of one of those barrels, but it might be more trouble that it's worth on a rifle that already costs over $2500.

 

[jwb47]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

just buy an m1 garand you can get them in 7.62 they have a self ejecting magazine and you can use them for a rifle , boat paddle , wall breaching device or simply use them to club your enemy to death.

 

[Mr blasty]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

Pistons aren't everything. You can extend the sight radius by adding a sight to the end of the barrel. There are a few shooting competitors out there who do this. What about the LWRC R.E.P.R.? As far as being able to force a round into the chamber, WHY? If it wont go theirs probably a reason.

 

[splean]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

It sounds like your current M1A configuration fits the bill. Instead of buying something new you can get more ammo. Good luck.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

repr and your done....lwrc

 

[KillShot]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RUTGERS95</div><div class="ubbcode-body">repr and your done....lwrc </div></div>

As someone else said in another topic, get an LWRC if you don't mind being raped.

 

[Balzac72]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

You know a reciprocating bolt is a NEGATIVE feature, right? It's one more thing to snag, pull your rifle out of battery or prevent the action from cycling in non ideal conditions.

Anyway, with that said, an FAL from DSA, REPR from LWRC or a POF rifle fit your bill. If you'd go with an 18" rifle, I'd suggest a Keltec RFB, but it's not something I'd put irons on. Too short of a sight radius.

If I could, I'd jump all over a REPR. But I decided to get the ACR first. I figured that if there's another ban, the ACR is a bit rarer and would command a higher price due purely to scarcity.

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

Modifying your current M1A seems to be the cheapest option at this particular point given your specified requirements. You might do better changing out that stuff then going for a whole new rifle. I can see where you are coming from though with the weight. Thats why I decided to use my engineering know how to build my own stock to my own requirements.

 

[1stIDvet]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

SCAR 17? It has a lot of options your asking for.

-Reciprocating bolt handle
-7.26x51 caliber
-Light weight
-Similar to Ar style
-Easy to mount optics

 

[henschman]

Re: Help me find a rifle with my requrements

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HKTackDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know a reciprocating bolt is a NEGATIVE feature, right? It's one more thing to snag, pull your rifle out of battery or prevent the action from cycling in non ideal conditions.

Anyway, with that said, an FAL from DSA, REPR from LWRC or a POF rifle fit your bill. If you'd go with an 18" rifle, I'd suggest a Keltec RFB, but it's not something I'd put irons on. Too short of a sight radius.

If I could, I'd jump all over a REPR. But I decided to get the ACR first. I figured that if there's another ban, the ACR is a bit rarer and would command a higher price due purely to scarcity. </div></div>

I don't think a reciprocating bolt would come out of battery too much easier than a T-handle would. I have never heard of any complaints about this happening in the field. I have only heard this complaint on internet forums. As for not cycling, I assume you mean firing it with the charging handle side of the rifle on the ground or something. I think shooting an AR-type rifle in this kind of situation would be just about as likely to produce a misfeed, just for having the ejection port against the ground. Even if it could possibly cause a problem in this limited, rather unlikely situation, the advantage you would get from being able to easily clear ordinary misfeeds would more than make up for it I would think.

As for the REPR, it has a side charging handle, but it is non-reciprocating. Also, the 20" version is over my weight requirements. It does come with a heavy profile barrel, so it could possibly be made light enough by getting the barrel turned down though. Also, the 20" comes with the heavier PRS stock, which I am not a big fan of... if you got it with the E-mod stock that the carbine version comes with, it might shave off some weight. I do like the full-length modular handguards. However, paying over 3 grand and then having to get custom barrel work done doesn't sound like fun.

I guess the REPR and the SCAR Heavy are the closest to my requirements. The REPR just doesn't come with a reciprocating bolt handle and an acceptable length/weight barrel, and the SCAR doesn't have long enough handguards/sight radius.

I think I will be best served by keeping my M1A, and doing some mods to improve accuracy as best I can, like adding a unitized gas system. The money I save over one of these expensive AR designs can be invested in extra GI parts.

It is looking like even after all these years, for a pure battle rifle, the old M-14 can't be beat. Pretty amazing.