Help with Shoulder Bumping

[FALex]

So, I have just been throwing the RCBS FL die into the press, turning it until it stops, then moving it in a quarter turn. I happened to mention to a friend how I always need to trim my brass after every firing, and he said I need to bump my shoulders only .001, and that I am probably bumping them back too much, which is causing me to need to trim (due to flow of brass, I suppose).

Anyhow, I just received the Hornady LnL Headspace Gauge kit. I am curious to know when do I take the measurements? I have some fired brass. Assuming I want to bump the shoulders back, where do I start? From my understanding of the process, please tell me if this is correct:

I place the gauge onto the caliber, zero it out, then put a case in there, get the measurement. Do the whole FL die routine, with the exception that I start with making very small (maybe 1/8 turn) and run the case through it, then check to see if it is -.001 of that first measurement?

Last question, if this process is correct, the need to bump the shoulder .001-.002 is the recommendation for bolt guns, only, correct? I also have an LRP-07 (semi), which I read needs .003-.005 bump. Just checking to see if that is true too.

I appreciate the help. I have been reloading for two years now, and I have not delved much into the more finite aspects of it, so I want to start refining my techniques.

 

[918v]

Can't help you with the headspace measuring thingy as it is unnecessary.

Put the die in your press and screw it down to touch the shell holder. Do not turn it in any more at this point. Size a case making sure you lubed the inside of the neck. Wipe the case and try to chamber it. If it chambers easily, back out the die 1/32 of a turn and size another case. The bolt should not be able to close on it or be real hard to close. Now turn in the die in teeny increments and sizing the case down until the bolt closes easily. That's your minimum setting. You don't need a tricky gauge. All you need is your brain.

 

[buildyourown]

I think you have it straight.. measure a fired case, or in my case, just starting out with loading 308 for an AR build of my own, I measured a few, some reloads and some fired factory cartridge cases to determine the fired headspace for my chamber, then subtract (.004-.005 is my choice) from that and set the f/l size die to just achieve that desired amount of shoulder bump. I also measure some factory loads to see how they measure out as below in the table.

I did my first round of once fired rounds that I obtained from another source and just bumped em the standard down til it touches and a 1/4 turn more. The results - (note, I just rezero a dial caliper, so the length of the headspace gage is not removed from my measurement, so the values are high, but all are relative to each other... )

3.625	PPU 168gr Match
3.625	PPU 145gr FMJBT
3.621	Rem 150gr CL
3.621	PMC Bronze 145gr FMJBT
3.624	FL resized Lee SB full camover on press
3.630	Once Fired Exterminator
3.625-3.626	Desired Setback of .004"

<tbody>
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I need to resize some rounds that have now been fired from my rifle (the Exterminator lol) and see if, in fact, with a 1/4 turn of camover, do I still get to 3.625 on the next go round.. if so, I will probably leave it set right there. Seems a little odd, as I have heard that doing the standard 1/4 turn will oversize your shoulder, but it does not really seem to be the case for my first experiments.

 

[buildyourown]

With a bolt gun, you can 'feel the bump', but with an autoloader, you really can't..

 

[bigedp51]

Can't help you with the headspace measuring thingy as it is unnecessary.

Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?

Below a Colt .223/5.56 Field gauge 1.4736

Below the Field gauge in the "calibrated" Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge.

Below a fired case from my AR15 carbine.

Below the same case after sizing and .003 shoulder bump.

Below a new unfired Federal XM193 cartridge

I was just playing around and put my Colt gauge in the Hornady gauge and noticed the actual field gauge measured minus .011 and then the light bulb came on. I loosened the set screw between the red and silver bodies of the Hornady gauge and placed a .011 feeler gauge between the two body halves and locked them down. The Hornady gauge is now calibrated and reads actual headspace and is no longer a comparator gauge.

918v, I do not understand your reluctance to use the Hornady gauge, I use a gauge to measure my tire pressure and I do not "ball Park" guess the pressure in the tire. On top of this with a semiauto the shoulder bump is more and getting the correct "readings" is essential for the proper shoulder bump. After over 46 years of reloading without this gauge I have now come out of the dark ages and "into the light" O ye of little faith.

I now use my Wilson case gauges for paper weights and pen holders.

 

[1J04]

You can use this same method on your Bolt Gun whether you're feeling the amount of resistance on the shoulder (hence "bump") on a case as you resize it, and you may use same method when seating bullets to the lands on cases to see how much "jump" your gun likes with whatever round. Read, Read, Read. Good questions like this are always important. Don't just apply a method, know why you're doing it first.

Bullet Seating Depth Method - YouTube

 

[918v]

918v, I do not understand your reluctance to use the Hornady gauge, I use a gauge to measure my tire pressure and I do not "ball Park" guess the pressure in the tire. On top of this with a semiauto the shoulder bump is more and getting the correct "readings" is essential for the proper shoulder bump. After over 46 years of reloading without this gauge I have now come out of the dark ages and "into the light" O ye of little faith.

I now use my Wilson case gauges for paper weights and pen holders.

I am reluctant to use things that I don't need. I use a body die and a +.006" shell holder to bump my shoulder back. When I use a +.008" shell holder the bolt face drags on the case head. I don't need a gauge to tell me that.

On a semi-auto, I use a forward assist to close the bolt. Same deal, except I go with an additional .002" of clearance for a total of .004".

 

[OF&B]

I loaded with the braille method for a long time.

Since starting to actually measure the headspace I've found one die in my set that would bump the shoulder back 0.025" below SAAMI minimum and 4 that wouldn't bump enough. One needed 0.020 turned off it before it would bump at all. Most of mine bump the shoulder too much.

The die setting isn't fixed either. Different brass requires different settings and the same brass needs it turned down as it gets shot. After annealing, I've had the shoulder bump 0.008" more than it did before. The consistency of the bump goes way up after annealing.

I have a museum of the various gauges sold over the years, but the Hornady caliper kit is by far the most flexible, cost effective, and easy to use.

 

[1J04]

I loaded with the braille method for a long time.

Since starting to actually measure the headspace I've found one die in my set that would bump the shoulder back 0.025" below SAAMI minimum and 4 that wouldn't bump enough. One needed 0.020 turned off it before it would bump at all. Most of mine bump the shoulder too much.

The die setting isn't fixed either. Different brass requires different settings and the same brass needs it turned down as it gets shot. After annealing, I've had the shoulder bump 0.008" more than it did before. The consistency of the bump goes way up after annealing.

I have a museum of the various gauges sold over the years, but the Hornady caliper kit is by far the most flexible, cost effective, and easy to use.

The consistency of the "bump" can also be attributed to pausing a bit when throwing the handle to give tuff to tame brass a little more help in holding it's form. If ya run it through like a jack hammer it ain't gonna work so well regarding consistent tolerances. Wouldn't ya say?

 

[ZombieMonkey]

As has been said, use that Hornady gauge to measure the proper amount of setback. I loaded without one for several years going with the by feel method and thought I was doing a good job until I started having issues on a semi-auto gun. Started using that gauge and realized that while the by feel method was close, it definitely was not the best at accurately determining shoulder bump and in many cases I was setting the shoulder back too far.

You have the method down, that's exactly how it works. As far as the amount of bump goes, I keep it on the lower end with a .001 for bolt guns and .003 for the semi-autos. As long as everything chambers and extracts reliably then I don't set them back any more than that.

 

[918v]

Much of the inconsistency in the amount of bump is due to the slop in the press linkage. If the die is not bottomed out against the shell holder, the spring of the press frame and the slop in the linkage will induce inconsistent sizing. You can fiddle with the gauge, and mess with the die, but you won't stop it.

 

[FALex]

Ok, so I went out and gave it a go. My auto loader brass was 1.625, which I bumped back to 1.620. I seated a bullet and chambered the round in my JP LRP-07. It chambered and extracted. Does that mean I can do away with the Redding small base die? It's okay but doesn't touch the necks, so I had to then use my Neck die.

Could it be possible for the rounds to chamber but not extract after being fired?

I think I am taking this thread off course a bit, just curious if anyone knows about this.

 

[918v]

You won't know until you shoot them through a dirty rifle.

 

[FALex]

That's what I thought. Thank you much.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Much of the inconsistency in the amount of bump is due to the slop in the press linkage. If the die is not bottomed out against the shell holder, the spring of the press frame and the slop in the linkage will induce inconsistent sizing. You can fiddle with the gauge, and mess with the die, but you won't stop it.

This is very true!
Which is why I have the Redding shell holder sets for all of my rifle calibers, and some custom made by me shell holders that are shorter than standard. Shell holders are cheaper than dies, and dies CAN be all over the place. You have to work to a specific tolerance because out of a batch of 50 cases, all fired in the same rifle, the same number of times, with the same load, they will not all size to the "EXACT" SAME headspace.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Ok, so I went out and gave it a go. My auto loader brass was 1.625, which I bumped back to 1.620. I seated a bullet and chambered the round in my JP LRP-07. It chambered and extracted. Does that mean I can do away with the Redding small base die? It's okay but doesn't touch the necks, so I had to then use my Neck die.

Could it be possible for the rounds to chamber but not extract after being fired?

I think I am taking this thread off course a bit, just curious if anyone knows about this.

Only if they are under charged, or loaded with the wrong powder.

 

[jsthntn247]

I used a Hornady comparator to bump shoulders .0015. I was getting more case growth when I fired the gun than I thought I should be getting. Got a Whidden die that came with a bump gauge and found I was actually bumping shoulders back .007. The Hornady gauge was measuring off the wrong spot undoubetedly. My cases don't grow any more after resetting the die.

 

[FALex]

Only if they are under charged, or loaded with the wrong powder.

Perfect. I have a load that appears decent that I was able to successfully run when using the SB die, so hoping to keep that in conjunction with just using the FL die. This will save me some time on the front end

 

[FLIGHT762]

I used a Hornady comparator to bump shoulders .0015. I was getting more case growth when I fired the gun than I thought I should be getting. Got a Whidden die that came with a bump gauge and found I was actually bumping shoulders back .007. The Hornady gauge was measuring off the wrong spot undoubetedly. My cases don't grow any more after resetting the die.

I've had the opposite experience you had with my Hornady bump gauge. With the .400" insert for 308 Win., I get very consistent measurements.

When you say you got more case growth, do you mean in the length of growth in the .400" datum line on the case shoulder, or do you mean the length of the cases measured at the case mouth?

 

[jsthntn247]

I've had the opposite experience you had with my Hornady bump gauge. With the .400" insert for 308 Win., I get very consistent measurements.

When you say you got more case growth, do you mean in the length of growth in the .400" datum line on the case shoulder, or do you mean the length of the cases measured at the case mouth?

My measurements with the Hornady comparator were the same each time. What I'm saying is that the tool was not the right size and I wasn't measuring off the datum. I checked it with a gauge that was in spec and it showed I was bumping the shoulders too far which causes case growth. Have you ever checked the accuracy of your hornady tool with another head space gauge. Might be a little shocked if you do.

 

[fx77]

Another way to do this measurement is to measure off the shoulder of the case and use shims to set up the die

There is a video here:

Innovative Technologies - Reloading Equipment

 

[FLIGHT762]

My measurements with the Hornady comparator were the same each time. What I'm saying is that the tool was not the right size and I wasn't measuring off the datum. I checked it with a gauge that was in spec and it showed I was bumping the shoulders too far which causes case growth. Have you ever checked the accuracy of your hornady tool with another head space gauge. Might be a little shocked if you do.

Yes, I have checked the .400" insert with a 1.630" 308 Win. Go gauge. Because I have a .019" chamfer on the edge of my .400" insert, my insert reads 1.611" on the 1.630" Go gauge. It is easily explained in this thread:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...5-help-headspace-measurement.html#post2490582

In the thread, Suasponte has a chamfer of .016".

If get a reading of 1.611", that just tells me any brass that reads 1.611" is at SAAMI 1.630" minimum. Fired Brass on my tighter chambered rifles will measure 1.613-14". I just bump the brass to 1.612". Brass fired in my Factory Remington is 1.615", I bump those cases back to 1.613"-14" by using Redding competition shell holders to adjust the amount of bump I need.

If I want to convert the measurements to a SAAMI readable measurement, I just add .019" to the reading.

If you have the need to have a gauge that reads the exact SAAMI measurements, you can do that. I don't need to. The Hornady gauge works. I get very consistent readings. If I want to convert the readings I havre to the SAAMI spec., I just add .019".

I also have a Sinclair bump gauge set. The Sinclair 308 Win. insert reads 1.561" on a SAAMI 308 1.630" Go gauge. So I know if I'm at 1.561, I'm at SAAMI minimum.

These two bump gauges work well. The readings are based off of the brass fired in the Rifle. I actually prefer the Hornady gauge since I do get more consistent readings off of it.

Here's the Video Suasponte made explaining it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0lylBTf7Cw

 

[bcrich]

Just use an unfired unprimed 40 s&w case as a gauge to measure headspace.... And measuring shoulder bump. Simple & it works.

 

[elfster1234]

I wouldnt follow any of this information. Totally wrong.

Can't help you with the headspace measuring thingy as it is unnecessary.

Put the die in your press and screw it down to touch the shell holder. Do not turn it in any more at this point. Size a case making sure you lubed the inside of the neck. Wipe the case and try to chamber it. If it chambers easily, back out the die 1/32 of a turn and size another case. The bolt should not be able to close on it or be real hard to close. Now turn in the die in teeny increments and sizing the case down until the bolt closes easily. That's your minimum setting. You don't need a tricky gauge. All you need is your brain.

 

[elfster1234]

http://www.snipershide.com/[email protected]

So, I have just been throwing the RCBS FL die into the press, turning it until it stops, then moving it in a quarter turn. I happened to mention to a friend how I always need to trim my brass after every firing, and he said I need to bump my shoulders only .001, and that I am probably bumping them back too much, which is causing me to need to trim (due to flow of brass, I suppose).

Anyhow, I just received the Hornady LnL Headspace Gauge kit. I am curious to know when do I take the measurements? I have some fired brass. Assuming I want to bump the shoulders back, where do I start? From my understanding of the process, please tell me if this is correct:

I place the gauge onto the caliber, zero it out, then put a case in there, get the measurement. Do the whole FL die routine, with the exception that I start with making very small (maybe 1/8 turn) and run the case through it, then check to see if it is -.001 of that first measurement?

Last question, if this process is correct, the need to bump the shoulder .001-.002 is the recommendation for bolt guns, only, correct? I also have an LRP-07 (semi), which I read needs .003-.005 bump. Just checking to see if that is true too.

I appreciate the help. I have been reloading for two years now, and I have not delved much into the more finite aspects of it, so I want to start refining my techniques.

 

[FALex]

http://www.snipershide.com/[email protected]

Damn, Elf, wish'd I would have seen that before putting up my post! I like your brass drying method! I bumped my shoulder .005 for my LRP, and it chambered/extracted, so I think I am on the right track.

ETA - Dude, that post is rad. Funny shit..."Now it's time to trim that shit down." You typed that really well. It's not always entertaining - reading about reloading. That was great man.

 

[elfster1234]

no problem my friend! I'm glad you enjoyed it. If you can't learn how to reload from this thread, then you should send me all of your reloading equipment and rifles! LOL, JK!

Damn, Elf, wish'd I would have seen that before putting up my post! I like your brass drying method! I bumped my shoulder .005 for my LRP, and it chambered/extracted, so I think I am on the right track.

ETA - Dude, that post is rad. Funny shit..."Now it's time to trim that shit down." You typed that really well. It's not always entertaining - reading about reloading. That was great man.

 

[918v]

I wouldnt follow any of this information. Totally wrong.

That's because you don't understand what's going on.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

That's because you don't understand what's going on.

No, I'm with elfster on this as his loading process is spot on with where it should be.

 

[918v]

So which part of my process do you disagree with?

 

[elfster1234]

you cant honestly state this comment of yours without reading the link to my thread above.... you are pretty much just "winging it" with your reloading process.. mine is repeatable and can be adjusted as needed.... lol, and I talk as if it is "my" reloading process.... it isn't mine, but is IMO the correct way of reloading so you know for a fact what your bumped brass is & other reloading BS.


http://www.snipershide.com/[email protected]

That's because you don't understand what's going on.

 

[elfster1234]

and BTW....

usually, most people that use the correct way to reload with hornady headspace gauges will bump the following:


.001 to .003 for bolt actions

.003 to .005 for semi autos


consistency = accuracy!

and if you get something that works well, then you can repeat that method... not just "winging it" by feel..... you can't get a repeatable .001 or .002 or .003 bump for a bolt action by just "feel"... you will by using the correct tools.


Also, you will find that headspace will grow the more you fire the weapon! this is where using the correct tools will allow you to make your adjustments!


just read my thread and you will know what im talking about!




I hope this helps my friend!

Damn, Elf, wish'd I would have seen that before putting up my post! I like your brass drying method! I bumped my shoulder .005 for my LRP, and it chambered/extracted, so I think I am on the right track.

ETA - Dude, that post is rad. Funny shit..."Now it's time to trim that shit down." You typed that really well. It's not always entertaining - reading about reloading. That was great man.

 

[918v]

you cant honestly state this comment of yours without reading the link to my thread above.... you are pretty much just "winging it" with your reloading process.. mine is repeatable and can be adjusted as needed.... lol, and I talk as if it is "my" reloading process.... it isn't mine, but is IMO the correct way of reloading so you know for a fact what your bumped brass is & other reloading BS.

The only way to bump the shoulder precisely and with confidence is to anneal and bottom out the die against the shell holder. Otherwise the linkage of the press and the springing of the frame will introduce a variance. All the gauges in the world won't fix it.

Unless you are prepared to do that, you are just winging it too.

 

[elfster1234]

not an issue with me... and usually im over camming my press just a tad also to get my required correct & consistent shoulder bump.... it is mostly based upon the screw in depth of the die and having a consistent pull of the ram press handle.... every single press is different and is just the nature of the beast with my hornady LNL press.

my hornady headspace gauge will show a slightly different measurement from the next person's headspace gauge.... all the headspace gauge is doing is making sure you bump the FIRED BRASS OUT OF YOUR RIFLE back a set amount..... if each pc of brass ejected out of my rifle has a measurement of 1.458 99% of the time and I bump it back .004 to 1.454, then I know each pc is perfectly bump and is tuned to that particular rifle.... that's it! and once my brass is resized & the die is locked into position and it says it has been bumped .004 from my fired brass, and the next pc of resized brass is bumped .004, and the next pc of resized brass is bumped .004, and blah blah blah... then you're GTG... next, yes your method you sated might work with a bolt action with feel, BUT how the hell do you do the same with a semi-auto?? there is no "feel of the bolt" with a semi-auto!!! once again, you just keep digging your hole deeper..... yes, annealing is nice and all, but if each PC of brass you measure with your headspace gauge is perfectly bumped from your fired brass, then everything you just stated is a moot issue..... so no, I'm not winging it...


as for your example, how do you know on one round of reloading you're bumping the brass .001,,,,, and on the next round of reloading you're bumping the brass .008??? you would never know that .007 difference by just going by "feel"... it is damn near paper thin but can make a difference between having 1.25 or 1moa groups.... consistency is both accuracy and repeatability. besides the fact of not being able to "feel the bolt" with semi-autos issue stated above...

by following these methods.... not only will you improve accuracy, but it also improved the life of your brass!! also, so you're not just guessing.

I have a friend that was doing the very same method as you (going by feel) and had no clue of the methods I was talking about.. Once I showed him what to do, we measured some of his fired AR semi-auto brass and he was ONLY bumping the shoulder back .001!!! that might work with a bolt action, but is NOT safe or recommended for semi-auto rifles!!!

im sorry my friend, but the more you talk and post and more you just dig your reloading hole.

The only way to bump the shoulder precisely and with confidence is to anneal and bottom out the die against the shell holder. Otherwise the linkage of the press and the springing of the frame will introduce a variance. All the gauges in the world won't fix it.

Unless you are prepared to do that, you are just winging it too.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Like Elfster has stated, my issue with your reloading process is that you are doing yours without any verifiable measurements and are using "feel" to set something up. We are talking about measurements in the thousandths, unless you are telling me that you are a human micrometer, that's simply not possible. Bottoming out your die on the shell holder in most cases is going to lead you to overworking your brass. I've measured my consistency in shoulder bumping and it's all +/- 0.0005 using the same methods Elfster, myself, and many others advocate in many of the threads that come up regarding this topic. I've employed these methods on my Hornady LNL AP, my Dillon 650, and my Redding Big Boss II. These methods are repeatable and reliable, "feel" is not.

 

[bigedp51]

Can't help you with the headspace measuring thingy as it is unnecessary.

You don't need a tricky gauge. All you need is your brain.

Wizard of Oz

Dorothy: How do you talk if you don't have a brain?

Scarecrow: Well, some people without brains do an awful lot of talking don't they?

918v, let us know when the Wizard of Oz gives you a new brain, just follow the yellow brick road.

 

[elfster1234]

this is spot on and couldn't be stated any better myself.

Like Elfster has stated, my issue with your reloading process is that you are doing yours without any verifiable measurements and are using "feel" to set something up. We are talking about measurements in the thousandths, unless you are telling me that you are a human micrometer, that's simply not possible. Bottoming out your die on the shell holder in most cases is going to lead you to overworking your brass. I've measured my consistency in shoulder bumping and it's all +/- 0.0005 using the same methods Elfster, myself, and many others advocate in many of the threads that come up regarding this topic. I've employed these methods on my Hornady LNL AP, my Dillon 650, and my Redding Big Boss II. These methods are repeatable and reliable, "feel" is not.

 

[918v]

Wizard of Oz

Dorothy: How do you talk if you don't have a brain?

Scarecrow: Well, some people without brains do an awful lot of talking don't they?

918v, let us know when the Wizard of Oz gives you a new brain, just follow the yellow brick road.

Go away troll.

 

[918v]

Like Elfster has stated, my issue with your reloading process is that you are doing yours without any verifiable measurements and are using "feel" to set something up. We are talking about measurements in the thousandths, unless you are telling me that you are a human micrometer, that's simply not possible. Bottoming out your die on the shell holder in most cases is going to lead you to overworking your brass. I've measured my consistency in shoulder bumping and it's all +/- 0.0005 using the same methods Elfster, myself, and many others advocate in many of the threads that come up regarding this topic. I've employed these methods on my Hornady LNL AP, my Dillon 650, and my Redding Big Boss II. These methods are repeatable and reliable, "feel" is not.

Bottoming out the die against the shell holder is not going to lead to overworking the brass if you use the right shell holder, i.e. a Redding Competition one.

Going by feel is inconsistent only when you are numb. If you can feel the bolt face drag on the case head you have zero clearance. You don't need a gauge for that.

Adjusting the die down in small increments until the drag goes away is just as good as whatever you two are proposing.

 

[elfster1234]

honestly 918v... we are not trying to beat up on ya..... just trying to show you the light and help you and others out with some really good information... that's all... If I was you, I'd open your ears and keep your mouth shut. if you don't use the info, then keep on reloading by "feel". This way, you're only a danger to yourself.... but please, don't be on the fire line next to me when you reload ammo for your semi-auto by feel with absolutely no headspace on your reloaded brass.. I can only watch someone MORTAR and PULL THE CHARGING HANDLE with stuck brass in the chamber once or twice until I get the F#CK up and move far far away. It's only a matter of time when that shit blows up in your face. Be smart, be safe.

Go away troll.

 

[elfster1234]

ok... explain how you do this with a semi-auto then when you can't go by feel... jesus dude.

Bottoming out the die against the shell holder is not going to lead to overworking the brass if you use the right shell holder, i.e. a Redding Competition one.

Going by feel is inconsistent only when you are numb. If you can feel the bolt face drag on the case head you have zero clearance. You don't need a gauge for that.

Adjusting the die down in small increments until the drag goes away is just as good as whatever you two are proposing.

 

[918v]

honestly 918v... we are not trying to beat up on ya..... just trying to show you the light and help you and others out with some really good information... that's all... If I was you, I'd open your ears and keep your mouth shut. if you don't use the info, then keep on reloading by "feel". This way, you're only a danger to yourself.... but please, don't be on the fire line next to me when you reload ammo for your semi-auto by feel with absolutely no headspace on your reloaded brass.. I can only watch someone MORTAR and PULL THE CHARGING HANDLE with stuck brass in the chamber once or twice until I get the F#CK up and move far far away. It's only a matter of time when that shit blows up in your face. Be smart, be safe.

I think you should really think about what I'm writing because you are stuck on this gauge thing. If a die manufacturer sells a die set with instructions to screw the die down to touch the shell holder and that is perfectly safe, how is what I'm proposing unsafe? My process is just as safe as yours, just as precise, and SAFER than what the die manufacturer recommends.

 

[elfster1234]

ill put it this way for those new on the HIDE looking for solid information...

read what 918v stated above

and read what I've stated with damn near the rest of people stated above

and make up your own mind of which to follow.... im sure most of you will make the right choice. don't always believe what you read on the net... that even goes for the information posted by myself... regardless, use your brain!

Bottoming out the die against the shell holder is not going to lead to overworking the brass if you use the right shell holder, i.e. a Redding Competition one.

Going by feel is inconsistent only when you are numb. If you can feel the bolt face drag on the case head you have zero clearance. You don't need a gauge for that.

Adjusting the die down in small increments until the drag goes away is just as good as whatever you two are proposing.

 

[elfster1234]

im sorry 918v.. there is no helping you... you're stuck in a mind hole that you can not get out of. ive already invested wayyy too much of my typing skills and time responding to you.. LOL!

I think you should really think about what I'm writing because you are stuck on this gauge thing. If a die manufacturer sells a die set with instructions to screw the die down to touch the shell holder and that is perfectly safe, how is what I'm proposing unsafe? My process is just as safe as yours, just as precise, and SAFER than what the die manufacturer recommends.

 

[918v]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Everyone, read the instructions that come with your dies. Once you understand the concept of headspace and shoulder adjustment, and you learn the mechanical limitations of your press, you'll see what I say is true.

 

[elfster1234]

I'd do everything 918v just stated here other than be smart about it while using a headspace gauge and tune your reloads to your rifle for improved accuracy while increasing the lifespan of your brass. Other than that, 918v is about 1/2 correct

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Everyone, read the instructions that come with your dies. Once you understand the concept of headspace and shoulder adjustment, and you learn the mechanical limitations of your press, you'll see what I say is true.

 

[Bradu]

I pretty much just follow the manufacturers instructions since I load for multiple rifles. I have checked with headspace gauges and it ended up pretty close to what factory brass was measured at. I know I am probably overworking brass but I can grab a box of ammo and shoot it through multiple rifles. Elfster, what do you think places like Southwest ammo do in their reloading service for sizing brass?

 

[elfster1234]

im not southwest ammo..... im elfster1234 ammo... I don't get anywhere near the sub-moa all day long results with my rifles unless I'm rocking my own reloads.

I pretty much just follow the manufacturers instructions since I load for multiple rifles. I have checked with headspace gauges and it ended up pretty close to what factory brass was measured at. I know I am probably overworking brass but I can grab a box of ammo and shoot it through multiple rifles. Elfster, what do you think places like Southwest ammo do in their reloading service for sizing brass?

 

[FLIGHT762]

I wasn't going to get into this, but I'll explain why I use bump gauges. I've been reloading for 40 years. I reload for 15+ rifle calibers and have multiple rifles in the same caliber.

Many years ago, I started using the Wilson type drop in gauges because I was getting cases stuck in rifle chambers. The Wilson gauges got me in the ballpark, but when reloading for precision rifles, they leave a little to be desired. I know you can use a caliper on the gauges to get more precise readings, but I found them difficult to use that way and used the feel method.

If you own one rifle, you can do the old method of trial and error that 918v likes to use. It will work, but you still don't know exactly where you are.

I use the Hornady and Sinclair bump gauges. When used with a set of digital or good dial calipers, they will show you exactly where you are down to the .001". for the 15+ calibers I reload for, These gauges will work on them all.

In my calibers that I have multiple rifles, all I have to do to change the shoulder bump for a particular rifle I have measured and noted (all of my rifles have binder notebooks for references) the fired case shoulder measurements on is use either a Redding competition shell holder or a Skip's die shim to adjust the amount of shoulder bump for that particular rifle. It works quite fast and the numbers are there looking at you in the face. Quick, easy and precise. Today, If I get a sticky case, all I have to do is put the case in the gauge and the numbers will be there.

Just using the die manufacturer's recommendation of touching the shell holder and then some is nonsense. Over the years, I had a 6MM Remington and a 338 Winchester magnum that got case head separations after 3 firings by using that method. Decades later, I now understand the chambers in these two rifles were a little generous and I was oversizing the brass and it failed after a few firings.

I have over 30 rifles I reload ammunition for. The Hornady bump gauge cost me about $30.00 years ago. Today, it costs about $45.00, to me that is money well spent to have a gauge set that works on all of my calibers.

For me the whole reason to use gauges is to avoid a stuck, loaded case in the chamber and have to beat on the bolt handle or Mortar an AR to get the case out also not to over work my brass and avoid case failures. I've done all of the above over the decades and it pisses me off when it happens. Gauges help me identify any issues.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you reload for more than one Rifle, It's really fucking stupid not to use some sort of gauge with so many relative inexpensive gauges out on the market.

Another reloader said something which I believe is very true:

"Reloading without mics, gauges and chrono's is like flying without navigation gear. You spend a good portion of the time not knowing where you are."

 

[Bradu]

I have no problems getting sub moa out of my rifles with the other method mentioned above either. I don't shoot of sandbags like some people so I can't tell the difference between your method and my method lol. My point is simply because it's not your way doesn't mean it's wrong. Look at factory ammo people use for matches, it's not headspaced for one particular chamber and people win with it so that tells me it doesn't matter. Yeah my brass might be overworked but I don't give a shit since the primer pocket will most likely go first.