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Advanced Marksmanship Heresy! Todd Hodnett says bubble level is essential!
- Thread starter Racer88
- Start date
As an Instructor they are great because you can walk by quickly and see whether they are straight or not,
Then you get to tell the shooter, they bought a $6 level in a $100 wrapper and can't use it correctly, because it's probably gonna be off.
Then you get to tell the shooter, they bought a $6 level in a $100 wrapper and can't use it correctly, because it's probably gonna be off.
I have not yet done a competition where I have been on the clock so I always use my bubble level for each shot. One thing I just realized is that I use it as a solution and not a training tool. AKA it is off, fix it. It is off, fix it etc. I think it is time to make an effort to note down when it is off, by how much, by which direction and what conditions happened prior to it being off to see if I can identify the reason for it being off. I suspect the problem is either the rifle is not set up properly for me or inconsistency in my positions.
I do notice it happening a lot less with the Atlas CAL since it is easier to lock the bipod down vs the old style Atlas where you can tension it but is difficult to fully lock down but I suspect this is just masking the problem and would not be a proper solution for any competition where you don't have tons of time to setup and shoot in prone.
I do notice it happening a lot less with the Atlas CAL since it is easier to lock the bipod down vs the old style Atlas where you can tension it but is difficult to fully lock down but I suspect this is just masking the problem and would not be a proper solution for any competition where you don't have tons of time to setup and shoot in prone.
Most of the time, you are not shooting far enough, off by enough to really matter.
I really think I am going to post the entire training video with Jeff so you can see what you look like when you have to fix every shot, it's silly, there is no way to be consistent fixing every shot because you are off that much. Think about how often you are taking your eyes off the target it's the same as lifting your head to run the bolt.
They are running some water for the cows this week, so the range is not really an option to show people until later, but you can see it. it's a neon sign, but the Level Sales People will never tell you because it will affect sales.
I really think I am going to post the entire training video with Jeff so you can see what you look like when you have to fix every shot, it's silly, there is no way to be consistent fixing every shot because you are off that much. Think about how often you are taking your eyes off the target it's the same as lifting your head to run the bolt.
They are running some water for the cows this week, so the range is not really an option to show people until later, but you can see it. it's a neon sign, but the Level Sales People will never tell you because it will affect sales.
I only really use a level on ELR rifles, where being off a bit will in fact cause a miss. For that, the electronic levels are about all that are accurate enough and obvious enough. In ELR, you are rarely on the clock to a point you can't perfect the setup. As Frank pointed out, we need to get the gun/scope/shooter sorted out in the first place, after which the device lets us compensate for less than perfect conditions. If the target is small and far, we need just take a glance to see we did actually setup correctly.
Why are you trying to exterminate that habit? When I first started and saw guys grabbing their scopes I was horrified by it. Now I DGAF and I do it too.
It was the "picking the rifle up and carrying it around by the scope" that freaked me out when I first saw it. I mean, its a precision optical instrument, not a carry handle. I'm not going to say I'm a convert, but I've employed that particular field-expedient carry handle more than I thought I ever would. How does this apply to the topic of bubble levels? Maybe it doesn't. Then again, there is a difference between theory and practice.
Maybe not all bubble levels are created equal. I have one someone gave me as a gift, and it's in a drawer somewhere. As I recall, you had to cant the gun at least 10 degrees either way to get it to move. I guess it's worth what I paid for it.
If you get to a stage or position where you need to hold out front because you can't hold from you optics, it's been practiced. It's another tool.
A few times we have had "no bags or accessories" stages. Those who have never practiced without a bag really show it, and suffer.
I use a level in this way. Get into position, setup correctly, fire, follow through, then look at my level. Am I good ? If not, where did I go wrong. Setup, see if I'm level, if not, break position and try again.
When I'm on the clock I don't need a level, as I've practiced getting into position square, I don't need it anymore. I treat them like a training aid, not a shooting aid.
Right or wrong, it works (worked) for me.
Been to both places multiple times (taxpayer funded). Great quality of training on both, and I have not a bad word to say about either instructor. Took a lot of wind work out of Todd’s courses, and a ton of practical and positional work from Jacob. Strongly suggest to all to seek multiple instructors and classes.
As to the issue of the bubble level- if the piece of gear is not consistently used to marked benefit- its useless. In PRS matches I never used one, nor shooting National Matches at Perry with irons. Seemed to do just fine. Anything that takes me out of the scope costs time and position. Think that Sig’s internal electronic system is about the most viable Ive seen- though yet to use it. Like most accessories that are brought forth they offset a minor tolerance, and cost money that by and large maybe better spent on ammunition and good training. Bringing it back- if you use it correctly and consistently then it can reduce some variables in calling wind.
Honestly @lowlight bring ups a good point in coaching new shooters - with a quick glance at the bubble while diagnosing fundamentals.
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I have levels on my rifles. Mostly for eliminating variables while sighting in or verifying data. I just don't bother taking them off once they're on.
Once I'm shooting "for real", the bubble level isn't even looked at. No reason to break my position on the rifle.
I don't think they're necessary 95% of the time. But shooting from uneven ground, to a target on uneven ground with no horizon visible, I can see their value. I live in East Texas though so luckily that's not a huge issue for me.
Once I'm shooting "for real", the bubble level isn't even looked at. No reason to break my position on the rifle.
I don't think they're necessary 95% of the time. But shooting from uneven ground, to a target on uneven ground with no horizon visible, I can see their value. I live in East Texas though so luckily that's not a huge issue for me.
I just RO'ed a PRS match out here in Parma, ID two weekends ago. We had the "long range" stage. The majority of times I would look to see if the shooter's indicator was level and it would not be.
Then, you have these indicators with the flashing LED lights...holy shit, talk about a distraction. I wouldn't know whether to chamber and shoot the round or have an epileptic seizure.
On the second day, the target was at 950ish. I noticed one dude was hitting well and his bubble was jammed all the way into the corner of his level.
Then, you have these indicators with the flashing LED lights...holy shit, talk about a distraction. I wouldn't know whether to chamber and shoot the round or have an epileptic seizure.
On the second day, the target was at 950ish. I noticed one dude was hitting well and his bubble was jammed all the way into the corner of his level.
If I were to use a level a lot, I’d probably use the electronic level.
I’d much rather pay $200 for something *hopefully* much more precise than a $60 bubble in a vial.
At that range it’s not a big issue.
I was lobbing some shots at 2300 a few days ago and it was noticeable there.
Just because it is electronic doesn't make it better. Look at all the scales targeted at reloaders.
I feel like it is an easy test to just send a group down with it level then send a group down with it all the way to both sides and see how much it actually moved the POI.
I tend to agree on elec, a level that clamps to the scope will suffice for most, lightweight, out of the way, simple tool if wanted or needed.
I am at a loss as why someone would say not needed, to them yes, it may be, but if a guy wants a learning aid, and can decipher if it actually helps, let him buy the damn thing.
In the whole spectrum of this game, a bubble costs 60 bucks or less. JFC, we buy stocks that range from 900-1800, arca rails, bags and more bags, searching for the vega of bags, a SAP cigarette holder velcro'd to the stock. In the grand scheme of all the shit we buy in the perception of perfection, cost of a level is miniscule.
To anyone asking if it is needed, how can someone else tell you if it is or not, buy the thing, run your own tests, then next go on the same question, you can be the authority on whether someone else needs one or not.
I’m operating under the assumption the send it can actually measure down to .2 degrees as advertised. I haven’t tested it. But I’d imagine by now if it wasn’t capable, people would be calling it out every time it’s mentioned. Lots of assumptions though.
The videos I’ve seen of it seem to indicate it’s very precise in comparison to some incredibly expensive tools I’ve used in construction.
I’ve found the level Hodnett sells to be excellent and it should be for that price.
Thankfully I got mine for free because a good friend of mine is a friend of his.
The UnEven ground excuses crack me up,
We live in a world with gravity, everything on Earth learns to operate within the laws of gravity. Even plants grow up straight(ish) regardless if they grow on the side of the mountain.
We have 4 levels in our head to help us move, to walk. We can follow a tightrope, balance on a beam, rub our head and pat our stomachs while standing on one foot, all because of the levels in our heads.
How do you not "FEEL" it is off, how do you not know you are canted? If the rifle is set up for the shooter, your body should feel it. If I move the seats in your car while you are a work, everyone would know. If I changed the orientation of one mirror, you will know. Same with shooting
A level is only pointing out a problem with the rifle set up, or your level of education on the subject. It's not fixing anything, its just pointing it out.
Who shoots looting at the horizon, what horizon is visible when focused in at 100-yard target, the majority of my targets have no horizon behind it, the land slopes up.
Where is the horizon in this image ?
If I can shoot this target why would any other be different ?
I dont' get the excuses made to say you can't do it , when you consider levels are relatively new tool.
We live in a world with gravity, everything on Earth learns to operate within the laws of gravity. Even plants grow up straight(ish) regardless if they grow on the side of the mountain.
We have 4 levels in our head to help us move, to walk. We can follow a tightrope, balance on a beam, rub our head and pat our stomachs while standing on one foot, all because of the levels in our heads.
How do you not "FEEL" it is off, how do you not know you are canted? If the rifle is set up for the shooter, your body should feel it. If I move the seats in your car while you are a work, everyone would know. If I changed the orientation of one mirror, you will know. Same with shooting
A level is only pointing out a problem with the rifle set up, or your level of education on the subject. It's not fixing anything, its just pointing it out.
Who shoots looting at the horizon, what horizon is visible when focused in at 100-yard target, the majority of my targets have no horizon behind it, the land slopes up.
Where is the horizon in this image ?
If I can shoot this target why would any other be different ?
I dont' get the excuses made to say you can't do it , when you consider levels are relatively new tool.
I was wondering the same thing about horizon. I never see it when shooting.
Damn sure don’t see it when I’m inside dry firing.
Damn sure don’t see it when I’m inside dry firing.
From a long term instructor and competitor view (who used an iron sight level in Palma and 1000 yard Perry matches), ok, I've used one, a lot.
Since it was on the bottom of the front sight, it didnt cause me to do more than focus on the front sight a millisecond in the process of fundamentals fundamentals fundamentals bang... 10 @3oclock.
Repeat, X at 3oclock. Adjust for wind, repeat, pinwheel x, pinwheel x,
Oh shit, where did the 8 at 3clock come from. I missed the wind change looking at the level and sights... did it a couple of times.
When I put the level on the side of the scope, sticking out beside the eyepiece, besides breaking it off putting it in the truck, plastic piece of shit......
Then put the level above the scope, I found moving my head away from the scope picture caused more time lag and tiny loss of npa and position, the head movement was enough to break my concentration on fundamentals fundamentals fundamentals bang. I shot worse trying to be sure the rifle was level.
AND I've seen what every instructor has seen walking behind the shooters, bubble off to the side. And instructors have photographed me a half bubble off.
David Tubb, created an offset sight set so he could fit the rifle canted exactly to him. And set the sights to that cant zeroed and won several national championships.
He learned that system and made it work for him.
Pay attention. Tubb made a system work for him that is insane to me.
You can teach yourself to shoot a system. Professional sports people will tell you 3500 to 5000 repetitions to get something in there. I found that true.
Using a level to fit a rifle to you with someone helping you is very valuable. Absolutely. Will vote for that every time.
Me, trying to use a level 1200 and under, distracts me, and I shoot worse. The four levels born in my head have served me well, letting me focus on npa, sight picture, no scope shadow, squeeze, bang, and shoot well enough to stay high master in Perry stuff and crossfire my way out of first place into second in a major world Sniper competition. And stay in the top 5 for right at 10 years.
An add on level was useless to me during those 10 years, the 50-75,000 repetitions overrode looking at the level. I do still have that scope level, back in the package. A survivor of my past. I look at it every time I go to the reloading bench. I'm not mad at it or anything.
In shooting the 375 to a mile and 2500, I dont use a level. Watching the wind and splash is way more important to me at that game. The now 100,000+ repetitions have gotten along well with the four levels in my head, and I'm solidly in the F. Galli class/school on that.
Anybody who uses a level to fit the rifle and identify details to fix, is smart, using a tool to remove a variable that hides in the white noise. Good on those who use a level to get to the point fit and feel are natural so their focus can be directed to the next step the shooter needs to master.
I have watched some of the students come from the mentioned classes to different ranges and seen the disconnect from the known conditions of a week of instruction to an unknown range and shoot horribly, then ask themselves if what they learned at class a, b, and c was right for them.
Sometimes I can help them transition what they learned at different classes to the new different ranges we go to, and find a working comfort zone. The newer guys struggle a bit more until they get the fit, feel, and repetition experience into their comfort zone, and get more into the externals that bite them past 600.
All that comes with time, exposure, experience, and successes to grow on.
If a mounted level can help a shooter build a comfort zone (a correct comfort zone), by all means use it.
If it distracts from fundamentals, it's not your friend.
VR.
Since it was on the bottom of the front sight, it didnt cause me to do more than focus on the front sight a millisecond in the process of fundamentals fundamentals fundamentals bang... 10 @3oclock.
Repeat, X at 3oclock. Adjust for wind, repeat, pinwheel x, pinwheel x,
Oh shit, where did the 8 at 3clock come from. I missed the wind change looking at the level and sights... did it a couple of times.
When I put the level on the side of the scope, sticking out beside the eyepiece, besides breaking it off putting it in the truck, plastic piece of shit......
Then put the level above the scope, I found moving my head away from the scope picture caused more time lag and tiny loss of npa and position, the head movement was enough to break my concentration on fundamentals fundamentals fundamentals bang. I shot worse trying to be sure the rifle was level.
AND I've seen what every instructor has seen walking behind the shooters, bubble off to the side. And instructors have photographed me a half bubble off.
David Tubb, created an offset sight set so he could fit the rifle canted exactly to him. And set the sights to that cant zeroed and won several national championships.
He learned that system and made it work for him.
Pay attention. Tubb made a system work for him that is insane to me.
You can teach yourself to shoot a system. Professional sports people will tell you 3500 to 5000 repetitions to get something in there. I found that true.
Using a level to fit a rifle to you with someone helping you is very valuable. Absolutely. Will vote for that every time.
Me, trying to use a level 1200 and under, distracts me, and I shoot worse. The four levels born in my head have served me well, letting me focus on npa, sight picture, no scope shadow, squeeze, bang, and shoot well enough to stay high master in Perry stuff and crossfire my way out of first place into second in a major world Sniper competition. And stay in the top 5 for right at 10 years.
An add on level was useless to me during those 10 years, the 50-75,000 repetitions overrode looking at the level. I do still have that scope level, back in the package. A survivor of my past. I look at it every time I go to the reloading bench. I'm not mad at it or anything.
In shooting the 375 to a mile and 2500, I dont use a level. Watching the wind and splash is way more important to me at that game. The now 100,000+ repetitions have gotten along well with the four levels in my head, and I'm solidly in the F. Galli class/school on that.
Anybody who uses a level to fit the rifle and identify details to fix, is smart, using a tool to remove a variable that hides in the white noise. Good on those who use a level to get to the point fit and feel are natural so their focus can be directed to the next step the shooter needs to master.
I have watched some of the students come from the mentioned classes to different ranges and seen the disconnect from the known conditions of a week of instruction to an unknown range and shoot horribly, then ask themselves if what they learned at class a, b, and c was right for them.
Sometimes I can help them transition what they learned at different classes to the new different ranges we go to, and find a working comfort zone. The newer guys struggle a bit more until they get the fit, feel, and repetition experience into their comfort zone, and get more into the externals that bite them past 600.
All that comes with time, exposure, experience, and successes to grow on.
If a mounted level can help a shooter build a comfort zone (a correct comfort zone), by all means use it.
If it distracts from fundamentals, it's not your friend.
VR.
Sure, I would think that's rather obvious. However, that does not stop every single rifle at those matches from having levels on them, and those rifles are generally not shooting past 1000 that often.
My 260 that covers my 1500 and under currently doesn’t have an level and I don’t feel I need one on it
Years of running a level did teach me I tend to roll counter clockwise and now I’ve kinda trained myself to maintain close to plumb.
Why can’t you set up at 2300 take 10 seconds, look at the rifle orientation then tighten the bipod, you can see if the rifle is rolled If you stand behind it.
why do you need at level for 2300 vs any other range , ELR is very slow fire, what is the root cause of your can’t that you need the level to identify it?
why do you need at level for 2300 vs any other range , ELR is very slow fire, what is the root cause of your can’t that you need the level to identify it?
I don’t.
It’s on there because it’s convenient, it’s easy to see.
If I looked over the top of my turret I could probably get it just as plumb and lock down my bipod.
With the level I don’t even have to be perfectly Behind my rifle when getting it close.
In no way am I saying the level is a necessity because it is not
If you have a level on the rifle, walk up, use it to adjust the bipod and then address the rifle to shoot, I have no issue with that, as you said a good visual.
My thinking is you were shooting with it,
I can see using it to set up the rifle to the target in an ELR situation, tighten everything down based on it, its the back and forth, shooting, check level, shooting, check level that is the issue
My thinking is you were shooting with it,
I can see using it to set up the rifle to the target in an ELR situation, tighten everything down based on it, its the back and forth, shooting, check level, shooting, check level that is the issue
I have a cheap Wheeler scope bubble level I bought many years ago, however, I stuff a stack of feeler gauges under the flat between the bottom of my scopes, against the picatinny mount to level mine and it works great. I've verified level with this method using the bubble.
@lowlight I'm going to play the devils-advocate card here.
Not everyone has the experience you (or other) shooters have. Not everyone has the honed skills required.
You have 4 levels in your head. Can you walk a tight-rope and not fall off ? It's a learned skill. You first have to learn the skill.
The exact same goes for shooting. Body position, trigger control, etc. Learning rifle cant and "internal level" is a skill. Can you juggle ? It is a learned skill. A shooter has to learn it.
A bubble level is a training aid. They are training wheels. You still need to learn.
Walk before you run. Learn before you shoot.
Not everyone has the experience you (or other) shooters have. Not everyone has the honed skills required.
You have 4 levels in your head. Can you walk a tight-rope and not fall off ? It's a learned skill. You first have to learn the skill.
The exact same goes for shooting. Body position, trigger control, etc. Learning rifle cant and "internal level" is a skill. Can you juggle ? It is a learned skill. A shooter has to learn it.
A bubble level is a training aid. They are training wheels. You still need to learn.
Walk before you run. Learn before you shoot.
I do not use one much during the day but shooting coyotes at night when there is little to no moon out it is easy to have a fair amount of cant if you care not careful. Especially in hill country. I realize that is a small sample of usage, but it can be an issue. I have been doing it a while, so I am comfortable about being in the right place but I have taken guys with me whom I have noticed get canted bad when the horizon disappears.
D
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Where I shoot out to 2400 yards the way the terrain is, it makes a fairly severe optical illusion. My eyes and everything I can "feel" tells me I'm level but I'm always canted about 2 degrees right.
At any of my other spots, I can shoot out to a mile or more without it.
If you buy one, make sure it's a good one. The one I have laying in my desk drawer isn't worth spit.
More excuses,
99% don’t have the training or education to execute the fundamentals let alone understand how to use a level. Sure it’s a training tool, explain it to me then because it’s opposite of how the average person attempts to use them
I have documented this until my face turned blue and you still don’t get
you think levels are sights to align, check the reticle, check the level, all while you’re slapping the trigger and pulling the rifle over with the bolt.
one day some one will admit they just want to hang another widget on the side of their rifles. It’s like all the flat landers that put angle cosine indicators on their rifles, they want another widget to Align.
you can’t learn trigger control but you’ll learn how to set up you rifle staring at level, super geniuses doing the same thing every time expecting a different result. How many guys have been saved by seeing the can’t in the level, over and over. What did they learn, how did it train them. Oh look I’m canted, whew, level saved me, oh look, I’m canted, whew the level saved me, oh look I’m canted , oh look I’m canted.
99% don’t have the training or education to execute the fundamentals let alone understand how to use a level. Sure it’s a training tool, explain it to me then because it’s opposite of how the average person attempts to use them
I have documented this until my face turned blue and you still don’t get
you think levels are sights to align, check the reticle, check the level, all while you’re slapping the trigger and pulling the rifle over with the bolt.
one day some one will admit they just want to hang another widget on the side of their rifles. It’s like all the flat landers that put angle cosine indicators on their rifles, they want another widget to Align.
you can’t learn trigger control but you’ll learn how to set up you rifle staring at level, super geniuses doing the same thing every time expecting a different result. How many guys have been saved by seeing the can’t in the level, over and over. What did they learn, how did it train them. Oh look I’m canted, whew, level saved me, oh look, I’m canted, whew the level saved me, oh look I’m canted , oh look I’m canted.
Sounds like Frank is saying while you're looking at your thermometer, you're walking into a fire.
The level that Hodnett makes and sells is curved which makes it more sensitive to cant and therefore more accurate
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where does a cant come from ?
Most of the levels are very inaccurate to start, the bubbles are not sensitive to get the degree of accuracy in which people need to sweat
Most of the levels are very inaccurate to start, the bubbles are not sensitive to get the degree of accuracy in which people need to sweat
It registers 1deg. Unless you have a physical impairment or ailment, your vestibular sense should be able to get you down to 0.3 deg or so.
Perhaps, if you have a visual reference, but even then, I dont think .3 deg is realistic
You explained exactly what I was trying to, in under half the words. Thank you.
In my belligerent state, I was (am) trying to agree with, and reenforce many people's points here.
I'm just bad at it.
This thread got my attention. So with the level only being a patch to a problem I’m guessing the proper way to set up the scope would be a big level and plump x at 100 yds and if your body automatically cants the rifle you need to accept that as normal and A line the scope to the leveled x with the Normal cant Correct?
Yes unless you can work the cant out via another method. Doesn’t have to necessarily have to be at a hundred yards. Could use a laser level or old fashioned plumb line.
Heh....years ago I was shooting some 600yd stuff in Indiana...There isn't a tree in sight...much less a hill. I'd never seen a cosine indicator in the wild....I asked what they were...and they explained to me how I could use it......I looked at the corn fields stretching out for miles in all directions...and just didn't get it.....I still don't 'get it'.
Wait, did it twice up here in AK, including this week.
Student was shooting, had a bit of right, running a level, hitting close targets not far ones as well, asked me to shoot his gun, immediately I said, reticle is off. Almost 2 Degrees, but he was running a level, which can and will given the opportunity lie to you. So we corrected it based on MY EYE and problem solved.
You will see this again,
Student was shooting, had a bit of right, running a level, hitting close targets not far ones as well, asked me to shoot his gun, immediately I said, reticle is off. Almost 2 Degrees, but he was running a level, which can and will given the opportunity lie to you. So we corrected it based on MY EYE and problem solved.
You will see this again,
I have verified with a sent it electronic level that I can get within .8 deg 100% and .6deg about 80% of the time without needing a level.
.2 and .4 deg I was less successful leveling by “feel.”
So, take that for what it’s worth.
.2 and .4 deg I was less successful leveling by “feel.”
So, take that for what it’s worth.
I will definitely be taking the levels off my scopes before my lowlight class I’m September. 
. I’m serious.
. I’m serious.
Just tell frank that Todd said it’s essential.I will definitely be taking the levels off my scopes before my lowlight class I’m September.
