Back in my “anything to build time” era, I flew “dawn patrol”, before my CFI schedule started, in an open cockpit home built. 3 gallons an hour so I could afford it, full snow-mobile outfit, including ski goggles, making tail-wheel-only marks in the snow on the closed runways. Goddamn I miss those mornings sometimes.
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Id love to fly, but I'm too tall and too poor.
My buddy and his daughter died several years ago headed to an air show in someone else's plane.
Fire in the cockpit was the story I heard and they think he nosed it in hard since they were burning. Also said he would have hit a neighborhood if he didn't.
He had a lot of cool toys, even did some time for hauling in the 70/80s
My buddy and his daughter died several years ago headed to an air show in someone else's plane.
Fire in the cockpit was the story I heard and they think he nosed it in hard since they were burning. Also said he would have hit a neighborhood if he didn't.
He had a lot of cool toys, even did some time for hauling in the 70/80s
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Experimental my grandpa designed. This photo was taken at Oshkosh in the early 70’s. Sadly, he had a carb jet clog and lost the engine on climb out, stalled and couldn’t recover. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/9342
My paps had his private license, twin and IFR rating. I used to go up right seat with him but never got into it my self. But if you gave me a check list on a 172, I know the basics.
Was supposed to also make you think of the other BLM as well. Meant to be funny. Figured they were air charts of some sort.
Doesnt even look like the prop on the TBM was scratched. IIRC there was a fatality.
Lack of ground guide was determined to be part of the cause.
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FAA Dangerously Ignores Its Own Guidelines - Clears Vaccinated Pilots to Fly Despite "Do Not Issue—Do Not Fly" Policy | The Gateway Pundit | by Julian Conradson
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has been exposed for flagrantly violating its own safety guidelines in order to push the experimental Covid-19 vaccine.
www.thegatewaypundit.com
A friend used to keep his A36 Bonanza in a hangar at KMGM where you weren't allowed to do any maintenance on your own aircraft (the company that owned the hangars did it all). After servicing it, they were towing it from the maintenance hangar back to its T-hangar and it came off the tow bar. Tug driver stopped and the plane crashed into the back of the tug. He got a new engine, prop and cowl because they wouldn't let him change his own oil.
Hey guys I'm in high school and I'm about to take my first flight lesson next week.
For those that know a lot, should I try to go to a university, or the CFI route?
What I mean is, will I be severely hampered in a career of aviation if I don't get a degree?
If I need a degree to advance would ROTC be a good option?
Thanks.
For those that know a lot, should I try to go to a university, or the CFI route?
What I mean is, will I be severely hampered in a career of aviation if I don't get a degree?
If I need a degree to advance would ROTC be a good option?
Thanks.
Yes, you are going to want a Bachelors degree to be competitive for a major/legacy airline job or most F500 corporate positions.
While attending an aviation university is not necessary, it does entitle you to Restricted ATP minimums of 1000 hours, whereas normal ATP requires 1500 hours total time. You'll definitely need to gain ratings, then build time...being a CFI is a great way to do that but there are also other opportunities such as right seat 135 cargo (great way to build multi-turbine experience). I'd then get a regional airline job with as little time as you can and fly as much as you can as young as you can.
Going military is a great option, but ONLY if your desire to serve is there. If its a means to the left seat of a widebody making $300/hr+, don't do it...you'll hate your life. The best gig in all of military aviation is ANG/AFRES...no active duty BS, hired as a pilot, combined with a regional job you check all the pertinent boxes on a major/legacy application.
Jake, it all depends on what you want to do A degree is helpful, but not technically required at most of the majors. I would recommend it though, as it will help you get the interview. There are also several Universities that have degree programs affiliated with airlines. One that I've heard good things about is North Dakota State, but there are others.
Now, as far as ROTC is concerned, do you want to go into the military? Understand that in the Air Force, it's 10 years AFTER the year at pilot training, and I'm pretty sure it's similar in the other branches. As a guy who retired from the AF and is now at the airlines, I don't recommend it at this time. We need too many pilots. All the majors will be hiring at breakneck for the foreseeable future, and in this business, seniority is life. The earlier you get on, the better life you will have long term in regards to pay, schedule, upgrades, pretty much everything.
Just know that a flight slot isnt guaranteed. its extremely competitive and if you dont get one you are still obligated to your service contract whatever that may be, That's why the desire to serve has to be there.
Not to nitpick but I think University of North Dakota may be the university you are thinking of. I'm not a pilot but have a few friends who have graduated from University of North Dakota (not NDSU) that have obtained commercial pilot jobs. The aviation and aerospace programs are well regarded at UND.
There are a ton of schools out there. I went to a small Community college to got my Ratings and degree. My family was Blue collar and I did it on my own dime. I took longer than most because of it. After 30 years and many different jobs, 91, 91K, 135, 121 etc I can say that the degree helps. But, timing is everything. Up cycles and down cycles are constant. I finished my ratings during a down cycle. At the time folks were paying 10k to get a job. Just be sure you really want to do it. Theres gonna be lean times. There's gonna be 3am reports, commuting, living out of a suit case, eating cold food cause everthing's closed when your done with your day. Furloughs, cut backs etc. But, There are awesome times too, great folks from many different backrounds and experiences. Its an awesome job if you can find the one that suits you. Like my Dad told me. If you get outa bed in the morning and still feel good about going to work that day then you picked the right job.
The next coming years should be an up cycle for people going into it as lots of pilots are about to retire.
I was told by someone from fedex that they will lose 35% of their pilots in the next 5 years due to retirement.
It's not just fedex though. I believe that 130,000 pilots will be needed in North America alone, in the next 10 years.
The problem for me is that college is just to outrageous unless I can make 100,000+ per year soon after I graduate.
You are fortunate to have discovered your aviation interest early. I wish i would have. Good luck to you and keep pushing for success.
There’s a LOT of people, like most of them, that aren’t making $100k soon after graduation. Going zero time to a multi-commercial and CFI-AIM will cost you more than many bachelor degrees these days.
You’re going to make relative peanuts as a CFI or regional FO, and likely won’t be $75k or more until upgrading to Captain on an RJ. Debt management is paramount, but these costs are an investment IN YOUR FUTURE and the earlier you get pointed in a direction the faster that investment is recouped.
Perhaps a readjustment of expectations is in order…
You’d likely have no issues getting hired without a degree at a regional airline or perhaps a low-cost pax or ACMI cargo carrier where one can still have a good career. If you want to be eligible for the “Big Six” of Delta, United, American, Southwest, FedEx and UPS you’re gonna need a degree. That’s not that college graduates are any better than non-graduates, they aren’t, but it is used as an HR discriminator for hiring.
You’re going to make relative peanuts as a CFI or regional FO, and likely won’t be $75k or more until upgrading to Captain on an RJ. Debt management is paramount, but these costs are an investment IN YOUR FUTURE and the earlier you get pointed in a direction the faster that investment is recouped.
Perhaps a readjustment of expectations is in order…
You’d likely have no issues getting hired without a degree at a regional airline or perhaps a low-cost pax or ACMI cargo carrier where one can still have a good career. If you want to be eligible for the “Big Six” of Delta, United, American, Southwest, FedEx and UPS you’re gonna need a degree. That’s not that college graduates are any better than non-graduates, they aren’t, but it is used as an HR discriminator for hiring.
Another thing to consider with college. You don't need a degree in aviation for the airlines. Have a degree or interest outside aviation. Ratings are ratings. They all are the same no matter where or how you get them. But, I have seen many coworkers face adversity when the unexpected medical issue pops up and your medical is gone or at risk. Thats where the military helps. You will have something for healhthcare or income if you make it a career. So many freinds were caught off guard when they had a medical issue. I say this as I have been out for a year. I am fortunate that my employer has an awesome healthcare/benefits package and I have been able to make ends meet. Just things to consider as you choose your path.
Not really true though...
Delta: required
Southwest: preferred(this generally means required)
AA: not listed... required from an off the street hire from everything I know. I think they dont list it due to their regional flow through programs and I dont know if their regionals(envoy, psa, piedmont) require them.
United: preferred(again, this means required from what I know)
Fedex: required
UPS: preferred(again, this means required)
From what I know all the airlines that say "preferred" really mean required for 99% of those out there... BUT they like to keep the door open for: their buddies, their kids, minorities, etc... so they say "preferred"... but if you are a white dude and your old man isnt a check airmen, your pale white ass better have a 4 year degree...
Even if u have a degree they will take the minority over the white guy any day.
College isnt a problem... and most repayment can be done on a means based scale anyway...
Regionals are giving 50k+ dollar signing bonus's as long as you stay like 1 year... thats half your college if you are smart about how you go about college, flying and dont fuck off constantly.
I have 2 degrees in aviation... I dont recommend them. If anything happens with my career I am completely fucked. Covid showed me this. My fallback if I lose my medical is the generous loss of license and long term disability insurance my company offers... however if I had been furloughed from Covid(or insert any number of other things that fucks this industry every 6-8 years) I would have been fucked with a capital F....
i do recommend going to a school that HAS aviation as well as some other degree field you are interested in. There are lots that you might not even know about. SLU(st. louis university), Perdue, UCM(university central missouri) and I am sure a ton of others.
You can do flying on the side and generally get credit for it under your electives. For a lot of degrees electives are like 32 hours which is about 1 years worth of school.
The other path is going to a place like All ATP's and plunking down 100k for your ratings through CFI, then they hire you to teach. You can then build time this way. They(All ATP's) have hiring programs with MOST regionals and some regionals have flow through to their major partners. So in theory you could get hired at a regional and then flow through to a major and sneak in without a college degree... YMMV.
If I go to college I will go for an engineering degree, preferably aero space engineering.
A buddy of mine was furloughed during the Great Recession...his aviation degree and professional experience got him a store manager position at Starbucks, who absolutely ate up the decisionmaking and leadership aspect of this profession. He was there about 3 months before getting hired in a F100 corporate flight department.
Nowadays, the biggest benefit of a four year aviation degree is R-ATP which wasn't a factor 15-20 years ago. That can make a YUGE difference in seniority and career progression. Of course that's isn't necessary...a degree in finance or accounting or engineering or __________ combined with attending ATP can get you there all the same.
Biggest factor IMO is get in, hustle, fly your ass off, work as much as possible while attending to your classes and get the fuck out with the degree ASAP.
I graduated in 4.5 years with a degree, 1000+ hours of which 650+ was dual given, 100+ multi-engine, experience in turboprops and a light jet, and went right into a regional job. Bust ass, move up career ladder, got a brass ring airline job in early 30s and was a widebody captain before exiting my mid-30s. Timing and circumstances play HUGE roles, but putting in the work beforehand positions you to be 'lucky'.
Nowadays, the biggest benefit of a four year aviation degree is R-ATP which wasn't a factor 15-20 years ago. That can make a YUGE difference in seniority and career progression. Of course that's isn't necessary...a degree in finance or accounting or engineering or __________ combined with attending ATP can get you there all the same.
Biggest factor IMO is get in, hustle, fly your ass off, work as much as possible while attending to your classes and get the fuck out with the degree ASAP.
I graduated in 4.5 years with a degree, 1000+ hours of which 650+ was dual given, 100+ multi-engine, experience in turboprops and a light jet, and went right into a regional job. Bust ass, move up career ladder, got a brass ring airline job in early 30s and was a widebody captain before exiting my mid-30s. Timing and circumstances play HUGE roles, but putting in the work beforehand positions you to be 'lucky'.
that was my major, if i had to do it all over again i would pick something else. if you really want to do engineering, do mechanical or something else. the only beenfit of aerospace (and the benefit is negligible) is if you were ever to somehow get involved in being a test pilot. but even then mechanical engineering would be a plus. the point being here is that its a great degree when times are good, but aviation is cyclical. when the airlines are down and laying people off, the manufacturers arent building and designing as many airplanes. that degree isnt very useful. do something you can fall back on when the inevitable down cycle happens.
Jake:
Read Boilerups and Rjacobs response again. It is spot on. Try getting hired without a degree at a major airline. You might get lucky. But if I’m doing the hiring and all things being relatively equal, the guy with the degree is going to get the nod. I just finished 31 years with a major airline. I had friends on the pilot side of the hiring committee, and guys without a degree weren’t usually hired, unless you were a minority transvestite….maybe.
As Boiler up said, maybe a readjustment of expectations is in order. College is a capital investment. Just like a business owner who takes his earnings and puts them back in the business, instead of buying a new car or whatever. That investment will allow him to make much more money in the future to buy lots of cars or whatever.
Your statement “The problem for me is that college is just to outrageous unless I can make 100,000+ per year soon after I graduate,” sounds a little entitled to me. When I started flying for a living I was happy to have my job. Of course I was looking for the next stepping stone to bigger and better equipment AKA more pay. The job pays what the market allows and you move up as time and experience dictate. I’ve been fortunate. I have always got a bigger and better job as circumstances dictated, and was never furloughed or with out a job.
Try to enjoy the journey along the way to the destination.
Read Boilerups and Rjacobs response again. It is spot on. Try getting hired without a degree at a major airline. You might get lucky. But if I’m doing the hiring and all things being relatively equal, the guy with the degree is going to get the nod. I just finished 31 years with a major airline. I had friends on the pilot side of the hiring committee, and guys without a degree weren’t usually hired, unless you were a minority transvestite….maybe.
As Boiler up said, maybe a readjustment of expectations is in order. College is a capital investment. Just like a business owner who takes his earnings and puts them back in the business, instead of buying a new car or whatever. That investment will allow him to make much more money in the future to buy lots of cars or whatever.
Your statement “The problem for me is that college is just to outrageous unless I can make 100,000+ per year soon after I graduate,” sounds a little entitled to me. When I started flying for a living I was happy to have my job. Of course I was looking for the next stepping stone to bigger and better equipment AKA more pay. The job pays what the market allows and you move up as time and experience dictate. I’ve been fortunate. I have always got a bigger and better job as circumstances dictated, and was never furloughed or with out a job.
Try to enjoy the journey along the way to the destination.
Let me expound on this statement a little bit.
I wont claim it to be "entitlement"... I think the mindset of younger generation is changing.
The current(and probably last cycle too) people getting into flying arent cut from the same cloth/background as alot of us that have been in it for 20+ years. They didnt grow up in it. They dont have family in it. They have no connection to it. They see shit like was posted above that 130k pilots will be needed in the next decade. They also see the media spout off about making 800k dollars a year and only have to work 1 day a year...
They see it as a way to make money to support other stuff... thats it. I will say I THINK my 14 year old niece thats thinking of pursuing it is thinking along these lines. I dont think she has a LOVE of aviation like a lot of us have or at least had(I am in the had camp as this job has ruined it for me, but im also not looking for a different line of work), but she knows what kind of money there is in it(me and my old man are/were in it) and we basically tell her "its a means to support our hobbies and interests". Is that a bad thing, not really I dont think.
I think there are a lot of people in Jake's shoes, not only looking at this career path, but others also as simply ways to make good money... again not a bad thing. I believe they see the generation that is currently in their 20's that sit in their mom's basement playing video games and smoking weed and flipping burgers for a "living" and think "I dont want to become that" at least thats what my niece says. My niece is very interested and good in art, singing, playing instruments, etc... but she realizes "there aint no money in it"...so she is looking at "what can I do to make money to support my other stuff"... NOW she realizes college is a means to get there. There are lots of career fields like this now-days I think. Im not real sure where it leads these career fields to though... does it dumb down the professions(think doctor, lawyer, pilot, etc...) because people really dont give a fuck about "the job" just want to use it to make money or do people actually take their jobs seriously and kick ass in order to make even more money and have more shit to play with on their days off? I dont know the answer.
So is it entitlement to think "I better make 100k pretty quick" or is it being sold on something that isnt really true? maybe a little of both, but definitely a thought pattern that is different then older generations for sure.
Your welcome Jake…you will enjoy the profession no matter how you get there…fly safe]
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I have literally never landed that way in OAK....
Landed on the east side once... what a royal pain in the ass to get to the terminal.
I flew out west a lot so I got to do it occasionally in the winter months. Been on the east side a few times also. As you say it is a bit of a drive to the terminal.
Good post….I enjoyed flying…it was fun until it wasn’t. I’m thankful for what I had, but don’t miss it. I would tell the guys and gaIs I worked with, my philosophy was “I go to work and have fun, and then go home and have more fun. So what the fuck….let’s go shoot a PRS match…now that’s fun.
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