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[JakeM]

Your welcome Jake…you will enjoy the profession no matter how you get there…fly safe]View attachment 7773240View attachment 7773285View attachment 7773239View attachment 7773241View attachment 7773286

Thanks man.

I appreciate all the advice I have received.

As far as the college thing, it has nothing to do with get rich quick or a lack of effort.
My first job was when I was 5 years old cutting grass with my dad during the summer. I earned my money and have had full time labor intensive jobs ever since I was 14. The thing with college is that I don't want to be pushed into a useless degree and have $100,000+ in debt with no clear way of paying it off after graduation. Being 19 years old and $100,000 in debt is no joke and I get the feeling that older people don't understand this. That plus college hates people like me ( white guys ).
@TacticalDillhole gave me some great advice, now I know that if I go to college I need to go for a mechanical engineering major.
After he said that I looked it up, and that is a way more flexible degree.

 

[DuneBoer]

MJ detection over National Forest. Lost engine. I wasn't the pilot thank god. Luckily made a turn and autoed to the road. No other clearing for miles. Everyone walked away.

 

[pmclaine]

Just guessing....Not a deer strike?

 

[rjacobs]

Just guessing....Not a deer strike?

Its SWA... anything is possible...

Had a human strike in Austin last year.

Austin PD Closes Case On Man Killed On Runway By Landing Southwest Jet

Investigators have closed the books on its inquiry into the death of a Dallas man on the runway at Austin Bergstrom Airport in May.

www.planeandpilotmag.com

 

[tnichols]

Just guessing....Not a deer strike?

This IS a deer strike...

 

[Jetson]

Just guessing....Not a deer strike?

No …just a lot of birds

 

[Jetson]

This IS a deer strike...View attachment 7773356

Ouch

 

[pmclaine]

This IS a deer strike...View attachment 7773356

"Get in the air, get in the air, get in the air.........damn it!"

 

[tnichols]

"Get in the air, get in the air, get in the air.........damn it!"

High speed (just prior to V1) abort. Those don’t always turn out well, but it was the correct decision. This was a buddy of mine back in 2012 departing KDBQ.

Had to edit this for clarity. I don’t recall if a Cheyenne has calculated V speeds or just a blue line speed, but, nevertheless, it’s kinda one in the same based on aircraft type.

 

[pmclaine]

High speed (just prior to V1) abort. Those don’t always turn out well, but it was the correct decision. This was a buddy of mine back in 2012 departing KDBQ.

Had to edit this for clarity. I don’t recall if a Cheyenne has calculated V speeds or just a blue line speed, but, nevertheless, it’s kinda one in the same based on aircraft type.

I don't understand all that pilot talk but I kind of figured there is a point where speed, length of runway left and braking ability determine you have only one option left and come what may you are destined for the heavens.

 

[sled_mack]

Thanks man.

I appreciate all the advice I have received.

As far as the college thing, it has nothing to do with get rich quick or a lack of effort.
My first job was when I was 5 years old cutting grass with my dad during the summer. I earned my money and have had full time labor intensive jobs ever since I was 14. The thing with college is that I don't want to be pushed into a useless degree and have $100,000+ in debt with no clear way of paying it off after graduation. Being 19 years old and $100,000 in debt is no joke and I get the feeling that older people don't understand this. That plus college hates people like me ( white guys ).
@TacticalDillhole gave me some great advice, now I know that if I go to college I need to go for a mechanical engineering major.
After he said that I looked it up, and that is a way more flexible degree.

I’m not a pilot, but I think you’re missing the point a little bit with respect to the degree you get.

I’m an electrical engineer. I can tell you the people I’ve worked with over the years that became engineers because they expected it to pay well. In general, getting through school was a chore for them because the course work didn’t interest them. About how I felt taking art history..... it didn’t get better for them after they got a job. It’s obvious to everyone when you’re just going through the motions every day to get a paycheck. You don’t enjoy the work, you don’t put in the effort, you just want to slide by. Management doesn’t want to go the paperwork to fire you so they give you shit projects. Your coworkers know you suck and don’t want to work with you.

So pick a degree you think you will actually enjoy. Do your research to be sure you can make money with that degree. But don’t set yourself up for a lifetime of hating your career.

And there are cost effective ways to get a degree. Check your local community college. Ours here had an aviation degree. So at minimum, you could get flight classes in while getting your degree credits.

You are ahead of a lot of your peers just by asking these questions. Keep asking questions. Most schools don’t require a specific major until after your second year. Start out math and science heavy, and you’ll have a wide choice of majors without making up credits.

Good luck and happy new year!

 

[_Windrider_]

I don't understand all that pilot talk but I kind of figured there is a point where speed, length of runway left and braking ability determine you have only one option left and come what may you are destined for the heavens.

Yes. V1 is the go no go speed. After v1 it’s generally safer to continue the takeoff than reject

 

[rjacobs]

I don't understand all that pilot talk but I kind of figured there is a point where speed, length of runway left and braking ability determine you have only one option left and come what may you are destined for the heavens.

Its called balanced field length...

Its not a SPEED per say, but a point on the field where the data says you can stop based on weight and environmental conditions. WE use a speed that is calculated based on acceleration rates at the weight you are. All that is gathered from both engineering data(what the airplane SHOULD do) as well as test data that test pilots gathered. There are also environmental impacts such as snow, ice, standing water, etc... that come into the equation. You would think they would only increase stopping distance due to lack of braking traction, but they actually can cause acceleration to be slower as well. We get a number for V1(takeoff decision speed) but there is a lot of calculation already done to come up with that number.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Ya'll keep talking about this v1 thing,,, whereas in the movies they keep talking about "MaxQ".

Happy New Year!

 

[vh20]

Hilarious timing - just now watching a Family Guy episode (while reading this) where Quagmire has his illegitimate daughter in the cockpit of an airliner he's flying, and offers her a chance to fly it. She's timid, so he says, "Come on, it's easy! You don't even need a college degree, which is a very scary, true fact."

 

[Barneybdb]

Probably a stupid question but is anyone else not getting notifications of replies to this topic? Still shows as watched for me .

 

[isofahunter]

Probably a stupid question but is anyone else not getting notifications of replies to this topic? Still shows as watched for me .

Not getting all notifications

i really rely on thread notifications, especially when someone posts on an older thread that I have an interest in. This really yields good information and often helps me learn something. I’ve recently noticed that I won’t get notifications on some threads, but I will on others. Thoughts?

www.snipershide.com

Thread on this topic..

 

[Barneybdb]

Not getting all notifications

i really rely on thread notifications, especially when someone posts on an older thread that I have an interest in. This really yields good information and often helps me learn something. I’ve recently noticed that I won’t get notifications on some threads, but I will on others. Thoughts?

www.snipershide.com

Thread on this topic..

Thanks mate, seems others are having the same problem but no resolution yet.

 

[Skunk]

Around Alpine, TX.

 

[pmclaine]

Around Alpine, TX.

Love the "ruin", does it have a name?

 

[SQ54]

I don't understand all that pilot talk but I kind of figured there is a point where speed, length of runway left and braking ability determine you have only one option left and come what may you are destined for the heavens.

Yes, even if you just lost an engine.

 

[Skunk]

Love the "ruin", does it have a name?

Don’t know. It’s a good ten miles north of town in a mountain valley. No roads approaching it. Definitely uninhabited for a long time.

I’m sure the family that owns the land knows it’s there. There are several ranches down there that are over 250k acres….

If it was mine, I would definitely scrape myself a dirt strip and live there.

 

[SQ54]

Its called balanced field length...

Its not a SPEED per say, but a point on the field where the data says you can stop based on weight and environmental conditions. WE use a speed that is calculated based on acceleration rates at the weight you are. All that is gathered from both engineering data(what the airplane SHOULD do) as well as test data that test pilots gathered. There are also environmental impacts such as snow, ice, standing water, etc... that come into the equation. You would think they would only increase stopping distance due to lack of braking traction, but they actually can cause acceleration to be slower as well. We get a number for V1(takeoff decision speed) but there is a lot of calculation already done to come up with that number.

Balanced field length has to fit into the runway available. You must be able to accelerate to V1 and stop on the remaining runway, or, continue the takeoff while climbing at V2 on one engine (assuming this is a two engine aircraft) and maintain a specified climb gradient. All parameters are required.

ETA: This applies to airplanes certified in the transport category (FAR part 25) only. Most general aviation airplanes certified under part 23 are not required to demonstrate any such abilities. Some manufacturers, like Beechcraft, give you the data on some models like the King Air turboprop. Some models, like the 300 and 350/360 are part 25 airplanes.

 

[pmclaine]

Don’t know. It’s a good ten miles north of town in a mountain valley. No roads approaching it. Definitely uninhabited for a long time.

I’m sure the family that owns the land knows it’s there. There are several ranches down there that are over 250k acres….

If it was mine, I would definitely scrape myself a dirt strip and live there.

You will need to memorize this

 

[Skunk]

You will need to memorize this

It seems you’re suggesting I move in and call it my own. Nobody else wants it, apparently. I should.

It’s looking like I may lose my job for the same reason you lost yours. If so, I’m looking for aviation opportunities.

 

[rjacobs]

Balanced field length has to fit into the runway available. You must be able to accelerate to V1 and stop on the remaining runway, or, continue the takeoff while climbing at V2 on one engine (assuming this is a two engine aircraft) and maintain a specified climb gradient. All parameters are required.

ETA: This applies to airplanes certified in the transport category (FAR part 25) only. Most general aviation airplanes certified under part 23 are not required to demonstrate any such abilities. Some manufacturers, like Beechcraft, give you the data on some models like the King Air turboprop. Some models, like the 300 and 350/360 are part 25 airplanes.

im not sure what your point is...

Of course balanced field length has to fit into the runway available...

There isnt a single answer to WHAT that is though... its all based on weight, runway conditions, wind conditions, temperature, airport elevation, etc... which are ever changing.

Heavy weight, short runway, contaminated runway, tailwind, etc... V1 will be lower so your reject point is earlier allowing enough room to stop.

V2 is dependent on weight and flap settings, maybe temp and field elevation also, but mostly weight. Again a seemingly ever changing number.

 

[SQ54]

My point was to clarify what you said in your previous post.

also, a heavier weight or contaminated runway will both increase V1 and stopping distance. From your statements, it appears to me that you have poor grasp of what V1 actually is.

From the FAA website: V1 means the maximum speed in the takeoff at which the pilot must take the first action (e.g., apply brakes, reduce thrust, deploy speed brakes) to stop the airplane within the accelerate-stop distance. V1 also means the minimum speed in the takeoff, following a failure of the critical engine at VEF, at which the pilot can continue the takeoff and achieve the required height above the takeoff surface within the takeoff distance.

Weight, density altitude (field elevation and atmospheric conditions), runway conditions, slope and usable length, and wind component all affect the calculation required.

ETA: If the runway isn’t long enough, you either pick a different runway, wait until conditions improve, offload passengers and cargo, or cancel the flight.

 

[_Windrider_]

You guys getting all hyper technical. I was just trying to keep it generic.

 

[Skunk]

When I roadraced motorcycles, we had a saying, “when in doubt, gas it!” With airplanes, that doesn’t always apply…

 

[z987k]

Let me expound on this statement a little bit.

I wont claim it to be "entitlement"... I think the mindset of younger generation is changing.

The current(and probably last cycle too) people getting into flying arent cut from the same cloth/background as alot of us that have been in it for 20+ years. They didnt grow up in it. They dont have family in it. They have no connection to it. They see shit like was posted above that 130k pilots will be needed in the next decade. They also see the media spout off about making 800k dollars a year and only have to work 1 day a year...

They see it as a way to make money to support other stuff... thats it. I will say I THINK my 14 year old niece thats thinking of pursuing it is thinking along these lines. I dont think she has a LOVE of aviation like a lot of us have or at least had(I am in the had camp as this job has ruined it for me, but im also not looking for a different line of work), but she knows what kind of money there is in it(me and my old man are/were in it) and we basically tell her "its a means to support our hobbies and interests". Is that a bad thing, not really I dont think.

I think there are a lot of people in Jake's shoes, not only looking at this career path, but others also as simply ways to make good money... again not a bad thing. I believe they see the generation that is currently in their 20's that sit in their mom's basement playing video games and smoking weed and flipping burgers for a "living" and think "I dont want to become that" at least thats what my niece says. My niece is very interested and good in art, singing, playing instruments, etc... but she realizes "there aint no money in it"...so she is looking at "what can I do to make money to support my other stuff"... NOW she realizes college is a means to get there. There are lots of career fields like this now-days I think. Im not real sure where it leads these career fields to though... does it dumb down the professions(think doctor, lawyer, pilot, etc...) because people really dont give a fuck about "the job" just want to use it to make money or do people actually take their jobs seriously and kick ass in order to make even more money and have more shit to play with on their days off? I dont know the answer.

So is it entitlement to think "I better make 100k pretty quick" or is it being sold on something that isnt really true? maybe a little of both, but definitely a thought pattern that is different then older generations for sure.

The people that aren't in it for the passion are generally weeded out in the bad years. 2020 should have been a really bad year for pilots, except most were saved by a giant social(ist) program.
The suck that has been required to make it in the profession also weeds out those not in it for love instead of money. The next time 2008 happens the Regional new hire 50k bonuses and 75k salaries will be right back to 25k a year, and they'll stay there for 5-6 years to. Don't get hired by a major before the next downturn? Spend the next 10 years 8 legging it in an RJ for 50k a year.

It's just that we haven't had what's normally an every 10 years or so event since 2008, and everyone seems to think recessions and furloughs are a thing of the past, never to happen again.
The guys that got out in 08' because there was no money in it, which was true, didn't come back. Same in 01. Same, and quite justified for more or less the entire 80s.
People forget recall's can take up to a decade. The 0's average really really bad.

I recommend this career to no one that is mostly in it for the money. Sure, it might happen, it happened for me. Statistically it wont. And if you can't put up with a lot of crap along the way you'll never get there.

 

[SQ54]

If you are in it only for the money you are one of these guys and I don’t want to fly with you because you will never learn to fly an airplane.

 

[_Windrider_]

If you are in it only for the money you are one of these guys and I don’t want to fly with you because you will never learn to fly an airplane.

I got into this for snorting cocaine off the asses of hot flight attendants in the lower kitchen of an L1011 while flying to Amsterdam. What a fuckin lie. I will
Never forgive my uncle for all this stories.

 

[pmclaine]

It seems you’re suggesting I move in and call it my own. Nobody else wants it, apparently. I should.

It’s looking like I may lose my job for the same reason you lost yours. If so, I’m looking for aviation opportunities.

The owner would be smart to let you build your strip and make that place "Skunks Redoubt".

 

[BoilerUP]

Below V1: FUCKING STOP
At or above V1: FUCKING GO*


*rare Kobayashi Maru situation where it’ll never make VR on the runway where the PIC earns the big bucks

 

[SQ54]

Below V1: FUCKING STOP
At or above V1: FUCKING GO*


*rare Kobayashi Maru situation where it’ll never make VR on the runway where the PIC earns the big bucks

Wrong! Not that simple.

 

[BoilerUP]

Wrong! Not that simple.

It kinda is, at least in real world operations.

My next Ted Talk will discuss FlightSafety performance “lessons” where People calculate second segment to the top of the LINDZ in Aspen…

 

[SQ54]

It kinda is, at least in real world operations.

My next Ted Talk will discuss FlightSafety performance “lessons” where People calculate second segment to the top of the LINDZ in Aspen…

Yeah, done it several hundred times.

 

[_Windrider_]

Wrong! Not that simple.

I challenge you to stand in front of an accident board and explain why you aborted above v1. I’ll wait.

 

[HayStax]

Getting my PPL after waiting 20 yrs to make it happen. I’ve had lots of conversations about the best way to get into aviation. No money when you’re young and no time when you’re old. Both my CFIs started careers in aviation after retiring from more lucrative careers. One just got hired at a regional, one happy to fly for fun in retirement. My BIL retired from the AF and never wants to fly again, go figure. I think it’s a brutal career path and “paying your dues” sure can take a toll on other facets of life. Lots of YouTube vids on the airline career path choices. I think you’d make more money as a electrician or plumber honestly.

Everything is easier when you are young. My advice is to get a degree in a field you enjoy and pursue ratings on the side as you can afford. If you love to fly, then focus on that career path once you have a seen both sides of the coin.

Just my 2 cents - good luck!

 

[rjacobs]

Here's what happens when you abort not only after V1, but AFTER VR

TWA Flight 843 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

NOW, that Captain likely saved every life on that airplane and the FA's did a FANTASTIC job of getting everybody out in under 90 seconds I think it was.

 

[BoilerUP]

I challenge you to stand in front of an accident board and explain why you aborted above v1. I’ll wait.

Ameristar DC9 in YIP
UPS MD11 in ICN

Both rejects above V1, both determined by investigators to have been the “correct” decision.

That’s why I put the asterisk there…Cappy earns the big bucks in those very rare situations.

 

[SQ54]

I challenge you to stand in front of an accident board and explain why you aborted above v1. I’ll wait.

I did not advocate that, or any other action. Your statement is inappropriate.

@BoilerUP can stand up for himself and defend his statement if he wants. However, what I said was that the process is not that simple, which it is not, and using his definition would get you fired by me before you killed yourself and passengers and destroyed my airplane! And trust me, I have no problem firing an ignorant prima donna!

 

[SQ54]

Ameristar DC9 in YIP
UPS MD11 in ICN

Both rejects above V1, both determined by investigators to have been the “correct” decision.

That’s why I put the asterisk there…Cappy earns the big bucks in those very rare situations.

The ops manual spells out the proper procedure, but it does not prohibit using best judgement as you rightly point out.

 

[_Windrider_]

I did not advocate that, or any other action. Your statement is inappropriate.

@BoilerUP can stand up for himself and defend his statement if he wants. However, what I said was that the process is not that simple, which it is not, and using his definition would get you fired by me before you killed yourself and passengers and destroyed my airplane! And trust me, I have no problem firing an ignorant prima donna!

No your right it’s not. Perhaps I was a bit snippy. But you are to have a go mentality. If you reject above v1. U better be right. That’s all I’ll say.

 

[SQ54]

No your right it’s not. Perhaps I was a bit snippy. But you are to have a go mentality. If you reject above v1. U better be right. That’s all I’ll say.

Yes, you had better be right. But it works the other way as well. If you stop below V1 you had better be right.

 

[_Windrider_]

Yes, you had better be right. But it works the other way as well. If you stop you had better be right.

We strongly discourage high speed regime rejects. Unless safety of flight is at question or there is a big red master warning going off it’s better to go. Obviously the further you are in the high speed regime the more this is at play. We just try not to list reasons why a reject above v1 is smart. Obviously we can all conjure up scenarios. We don’t want any preconceived notions. You have to have a go mentality. i can tell you this no pilot at my airline has ever passed a check ride and rejected above v1. For any reason. Ever. It would be an automatic event failure. Hopefully you didn’t burn your repeat already.

 

[rjacobs]

My airlines "80 to v1" reject policy officially is "engine fire, failure, predictive windshear or aircraft unable to fly".

So if you hit Vr and pull back and nothing happens...you are well within your right and company policy to reject...and use the 1000ft clearway to stop the aircraft. But basically "we going flying past V1" is the standard... Been that way at all 4 airlines I have been at.

My old man that did this job for almost 40 years told me a technique he used where at the V1 call he straightened his fingers so he could push the throttles further forward if needed, but couldnt pull them back without a VERY conscious thought process.

My last airline flying 747, high speed rejects were a REAL hairy maneuver... if you didnt catch every brake on fire, you would likely melt every fuse plug.

 

[rjacobs]

But it works the other way as well. If you stop below V1 you had better be right.

I can ALMOST GUARANTEE at my airline if you reject, no matter the reason, if you can articulate why you rejected, at any point below V1, you will get a pass. Even if you admit to completely fucking up and rejecting because you mis-interpreted something.

BUT there is a reason in most airplanes master caution, warnings, and other aural and visual alerts have a period of time where they are inhibited so that you dont accidentally reject for something thats not critical.

The "surprise" factor comes into play with a lot of rejects... "I saw a master caution light so I rejected"...it was for something dumb...

 

[SQ54]

I can ALMOST GUARANTEE at my airline if you reject, no matter the reason, if you can articulate why you rejected, at any point below V1, you will get a pass. Even if you admit to completely fucking up and rejecting because you mis-interpreted something.

BUT there is a reason in most airplanes master caution, warnings, and other aural and visual alerts have a period of time where they are inhibited so that you dont accidentally reject for something thats not critical.

The "surprise" factor comes into play with a lot of rejects... "I saw a master caution light so I rejected"...it was for something dumb...

Yes, I’m thinking of a “dumb” reject on a contaminated runway, i.e. you had better be right because it isn’t going to be pretty.

And, just to be clear, I flew corporate jets under 91 and 135. If I had dinged one I would have been standing in front of the prez because I was the DO.

 

[rjacobs]

Yes, I’m thinking of a “dumb” reject on a contaminated runway, i.e. you had better be right because it isn’t going to be pretty.

What wouldnt be pretty? A reject below V1 on a contaminated runway? Please explain....

Because in the 121 world all that is calculated in and a reject at V1 will provide positive stopping margin as long as you account for the runway conditions correctly. Obviously if you tell it you have a dry runway and its actually covered in snow, bad things will happen, but I have never once flown with anybody who attempted that shit. Most people are hyper vigiliant in those conditions.

I can go into the ACARS and select 6 different levels of RCC's(0-6)... at the lower ones I can tell it what is actually on the runway in some cases(clutter 1/4" dry, wet, standing water, engine anti ice turned on, wind shear, etc...). I would have to look up all the factors we can plug in. On top of that, lets say a reverser is MEL'd or auto brakes are MEL'd, there is then additional additive on top for that stuff.

All those things, again as long as everything you choose is appropriate, has to give a positive stopping margin in those conditions...because the FAR's demand it...

Again going back to the balanced field length post. V1 is simply reduced to account for all of that stuff to still give a positive stopping margin. And if it cant, you take weight off the airplane until you can achieve such.