Highest BC bullet available?

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

John,

There are "nuances". Smaller calibers are relatively more difficult to stabilize... whatever method is used.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

I surmised that from the jacketed bullet world, but I was unclear if that was a process limitation that might be overcome with solids.

Thanks for the response.

John

 

[Country]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

I am also sus about any 1.25 BC G1 drag function.
The maximum BC of a G1 projectile is 1 .
So how can you predict a 1.25 BC using a G1 drag function it's bull shit.
This projectile in question would have a drag function of closer to G7 not G1 . However the G7 BC would be a figure like .2xx BC.
Not as impressive for the sales brochure as 1.25 is it .
However a lot more accuarte to calculatet a trajectory with when using the correct drag function.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Country,

All good points.

The G7 is not a good "fit" either. I plan on issuing tables using the projectile as it's <span style="font-style: italic">own</span> standard.

 

[Augustus]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Gentlemen, my statement about wanting to purchase a viable 375 bullet having a BC of 1.25 was not intended to be an insider joke. The only bullet I fired that had this kind of number was a ZA 431 gr. 7 cal. in length. The number came from a test in an 8 twist and appeared to be valid at 1020 yds with a MV of 2550. When they were pushed faster they became unstable. That particular prototype was not tested in the faster twist rates. The 7cal had a design change and saw limited testing from a 6.5 twist. They did become more stable at higher vel. from the 6.5 twist. The 400 gr. 6.5 cal prototype appeared to have a BC of 1.025 at 3050 fps MV over a range of 2560 yds, again the testing was limited due to having only a few of them.

Sooo, my request still stands. Anyone that has a 1.250 BC 375 cal projo that is ready for market, please OVERNITE them to me. Cost of shipping is not an issue. Also please include load data and what twist rate is needed to stabilize them at specified vel. I am not interested in a projo that cant be driven with stability at max vel. from the Chey-tac case. Anybody?????

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Augustus,

Give me a call

 

[groper]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?


At the end of the day, if we are looking at the highest BC bullets out there, what matters is the AVERAGE BC over a set distance. The muzzle velocity G1 BC quoted by nearly all the bullet manufacturers, serves no purpose to the shooter, only to sell bullets.

So when we are discussing a BC on this forum, as shooters ourselves, we generally like to discuss the "real world" or AVERAGE BC for that bullet because it carries some meaning and helps us hit what we aim at... Wouldnt you all agree?

So from this point forward, can we keep the rest of the discussion in this context please?

Now to the accuracy of quoting said BC... People make mistakes when they try to figure a real world BC. Its not an easy thing to do accurately and takes considerable expertise and equipment. Just because you figure a BC and your trajectory lines up using your derived BC, doesnt mean the BC is correct - small errors are almost always present and skew the results. The BC might be a tad too high and your velocity a tad low, but the trajectory still looks "close enough" for example.

The next problem is with the varying velocities... if we are talking G1 BC`s, then whoever shoots a said bullet the fastest, will show the highest AVERAGE G1 BC over a set distance. So again, the playing field is never level with everyone shooting bullets at different velocities. For these reasons, it would be much better to talk G7 BCs with less velocity dependence, as it levels the playing field considerably.

Lets remove the ambiguity and focus on transparency...
Now whats the highest BC bullet out there again? Not a simple question anymore is it...

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Groper,

Are you interested in putting some projectiles through a 10ft2 acoustic chronograph at the target?

I do not think your question is really that difficult to answer.

 

[TimResin]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Ok so I have been following this thread for a bit and reading along and trying to soak in as much info as possible but the one thing that makes it hard for me to learn more is the lack of Information. I mean I know websites cost money but seriously even a cheap website isn't that much for the perspective customers you might get. I have just gotten into the ELR game with a .338 Lapua and want to research and possibly buy solids to further my long range skills.

 

[C.K]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Why waist time on a Saab, book YUMA you'll get 2x the usable data. Why piss around moving the screen down range to find where the bullets go subsonic????? Get 5 guys(bullet manufactures) and go.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Hello Tim,

I appreciate that ferreting out information on this class of projectiles is difficult. The reason that you do not yet have a readily available, one stop, source for updates is that advancements have been very rapid. The time for a specialty website is near, but you are seeing the fruit of those efforts (finally).

With all the activity by manufacturers interested in this field of late, I trust that we will be able to provide a very accurate comparative evaluation of current projectiles. They should all be eager to subject their wares to objective analysis, and this will be made possible even without Ranger's involvement.

All that is really left is for those, that have been so vocal on this site, to step up to the plate. I expect arrangements to be made within the next 3-4 months. This will fit nicely with Groper's public announcement of his release date.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Chad,

In a word... cost!

And, I might add, the LOMAH measures actual velocity, not where bullets go subsonic.

 

[C.K]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

I know what it does. Hence 100 times the data if you go Doppler route, and that system don't register shit after sub sonic velocity unless things have changed. And to "cost!" PLEASE,. Travel expenses, tickets,ammo,guns, to come shoot across a system that tells you what the bullets doing in a 10'x10'x6"box(a over-sized chronograph) that you hope works and doesn't go down. That Doppler doesn't sound so expensive.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Chad,

You are right about reading velocity in the subsonic range.

If you would be willing to take the initiative, and make arrangements for Yuma, I would be happy to have my fingerprints entirely off of the process. Are you interested?

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

There was a time when the first thread I looked at was the beyond 1,000 yards section. I have spent much more time in the FCSA forum to get my "fix". This thread is really disappointing me. I have no dog in this fight. Just would like to see a lot of new designs and new products that excite and amaze. So far there are 2 full pages of argument and personal attacks. This thread is now off my watched list.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Yes,

It is a shame Mechanic, especially given the non-personal nature of the subject matter. Sorry for your disappointment.

Chad,

I am advised by team members that Fall timing works best for this event, assuming you are interested in participating.

 

[groper]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Noel, its really isnt difficult and the LOMAH isnt really nessesary. Im with CK, its either YUMA or bust...

Failing that, if one pays very careful attention to the details, such as distances accurate to within 1 ft, air temp, and wind vector, one can derive a very accurate AVERAGE BC over whatever distance you want to average the BC over. It requires nothing more than a laptop computer, decent chronograph, a 2way radio and a good grasp of the maths inolved... You get an average BC result to within 1% accuracy.

It goes like this;
Take the laptop and microphone into the pits at a 1000yd rifle range, ziptie the mic to the paper target and measure the distance between the bullet hole and the mic when they come thru. Have the shooter key the 2way before they shoot, and measure the distance between both handsets and the mic and muzzle at each end. Using simple software such as audigy etc record the soundtrack along with the environmental conditions and muzzle velocities of each shot so you can correlate the 2 afterward and do this several times for each bullet to get a median average. You reverse calculate the BC from the time of flight between the muzzle blast and sonic crack of the bullet by anylyzing the spectograph of the soundtrack you recorded. You can clearly see down to 0.001sec resolution in the spectograph by looking at the fist wave peak of both the sonic crack and muzzle blast taking into account the distance delay from the mic to bullet and handset to muzzle, speed of sound per the air temp etc etc... ive done it and it works very well provided strict attention to the details is paid.

Otherwise, simply setup a second chronograph at 1000yds and sheild it with steel, and shoot thru that... why would you need a 10x10ft target? not hard to get a decent bullet thru a std skyscreen sized chrony at 1000yds...

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Groper,

Would you be making the trip personally, or having a someone here shoot for you?

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Noel,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Drop the prissy little victim crap, and step up.</div></div> You do like making statements without ground and grabbing them from desperately thin air. You have come a long way from leeching off Lutz to trying to leech off us after that. I would have nothing to do with anything you set up because it will be all preparation and no show. A waste of time. You have done this several times before so there is a learning curve here. In any case, who will pay for this extravaganza, you? You would be well advised to keep your schoolgirl comments to yourself and let real world manufacturers get on with the job without your yapping.

Why do you think I broke off email contact with you in 2008? I realised you were phishing, pretending to be interested in barrelmaking, while trying to gain the tech knowledge for bullet making.

Your methods leave much to be desired.

Augustus,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">none of them has a viable product that is ready for consumption by the general public.</div></div> Catch a wake up, GSC has been supplying specialised bullets for years and will work with anyone who has a specific need. However, if you have us develop a bullet for the purpose of copying it, expect to be cut off. We do not go around waving NDAs at everyone, we work in good faith and expect the same in return.

---------------------------------------

I will leave you all to your silly little mind games. If you have time for this, I don't.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Gerard,

All I really need to hear from you is that you are willing to show up. Enough of the prattle already.

 

[Augustus]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Mr. Scultz, the product I was refering to is a 1.250 BC 375 projectile. Do you have one, if so is it for sale. If the answer to these questions are yes, I have money and would like to purchase them. When can I expect delivery.

I have no idea what you were referring to when you spoke of an NDA. I have not signed an NDA with anyone nor has anyone signed an NDA with me. I have not produced or had anyone else produce any projectiles of any description. My only involvement with solid projectiles has been to fire them and report what I observed. I have no interest in producing or marketing solid copper projectiles, I would like to shoot them and pass on what I learn from doing so. I really suspect that you do not have a 375 projectile that is ready for market that has the BC described, if you do put them on the open market where a variety of shooters can put them through their paces. Until then your numbers are meaningless.

 

[groper]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Noel i would come if i had faith in you turning up... unfortunately i do not --> http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/future-h-t-b-c-test-shoot-52391/

Having heard this before, i wouldnt put myself out unless it was timed somewhere around my next trip to the states for more productive reasons...

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Groper,

Is your issue with Saab then?

It would seem Yuma should take care of that concern.

 

[groper]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Yuma would be much more worthwhile exercise, at least we could learn a bit more about the aerodynamic coefficients and flight yaw angles unobtainable any other way, not just the BC... i think you and GSC would benfit greatly from this and finally sort out your dynamic stability issues... im curious, any idea on what this would cost?

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am not interested in a projo that cant be driven with stability at max vel. from the Chey-tac case. </div></div>


Terry your above quote is quiet possibly the best sentence that has been injected into this thread in a long time. It is second only to the quote below.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C.K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This beyond 1000 yards sub forum truely is turning into the the biggest joke on this web site. Frank or one of the mods should put a disclaimer behind the sub title "for entertainment purposes only". This tread is a good example of the reasons nobody posts up any good info anymore. </div></div>


Now how about we make this an informative post once again by having you "bullet mfg" provide us readers the following information. (While we wait for Yuma results lol)

1. Weight of your 375 projectile?
2. What the min and max MV that projectile is designed to be stable within?
3. What is your MV?
4. What powder you used to get said MV and stability?
5. What length barrel used to get said MV and stability?
6. What twist rate use to get said MV and stability?
6. What is the transonic distance of your projectile when using your twist, length, powder, etc?
7. What distances has that said stability been tested to?
8. Does projectile transition to subsonic good or poorly?
9. Is there any stability issues at close distances?
10.Is there any stability issues at any distances?
11.Does the BC of your projo when used with your twist rate degrade, remain same, or improve when manipulated within your min/max MV stability range?
12.Do you need to change the twist rates to achieve proper stabilty when using said projectile at the lower and upper end within your min/max MV range?
13.Show pictures of said rifle(s) that conducted the above test?
14.Provide information on shooter(s) that conducted the above test?
15.Provide environmental conditions that were present at each testing?
16.What were all the variations noticed when testing at each "extreme" environmental condition?
17.Cost per 100 projectiles?
18.Shipping terms (next day, 2 day, ground, etc)


NOTICE I did not ask the following

1. BC
2. Case used

By you guys taking the time and answering the above questions number by number (Instead of ya yaw'ing back and forth) it makes this thread a "non entertainment" but brings back an "information shop" that people are trying to get. The questions are simple and to the point so no need to waste readers times by attempting to side step any of the questions by asking a different question or bringing up some other thought/comment, etc. Its just straight forward answers guys.

Thanks

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Groper,

I think that I know the course this exchange will take, but here goes:

- Saab is not considered reliable by either you, or Gerard, so that is a non-starter.

- Yuma (not my idea) has significant costs, and inconvenience, associated. Both you, and Gerard, will choke on that.

Let's look at a suggestion made earlier that avoids both of these pitfalls.

Bryan Litz has, in the past, made his services available. I know the costs, and they are reasonable... Any takers?


Later,

Your suggestion leaves us with the "new system" hype that you are already acquainted with.

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Later,

Your suggestion leaves us with the "new system" hype that you are already acquainted with. </div></div>

Noel..leaving "new systems" out of it. The mfg should let us readers know the answers to the questions so that everyone has the information needed to make their own decisions as to which mfg to go with and what specs to build rifle for. Without having to sipher thru the argueing, correct?

Thanks

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Later,

I am not going to stake a claim on a BC that is not independently verified. We are looking for objective information, correct?

 

[jrob300]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are looking for objective information, correct? </div></div>

If the list Later requested above (I can snip it for you if you want) is NOT objective, what is? Even if you can answer 95% of the questions, at least the interested parties here would have SOMETHING to hold in their hands.

John

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Later,

I am not going to stake a claim on a BC that is not independently verified. We are looking for objective information, correct?</div></div>

Exactly, hence I did not ask for any mfg to give a BC number, I even noted that BC was not asked.

Thanks

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

John,

Manufacturers answering a question is not the same as "objectivity"... as has been learned many times over.

Someone was announcing a "4K system", with great confidence, to be available last year (in the shout box) not too many months ago.

If the objective is "real world" information, this is one of the best means to obtain comparative data. It may be more "entertaining" to speculate, and the written format is much better suited to that. It comes down to preference.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Later,

The balance of your questions are completely compatible with an independently field verified scenario.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Like I said before, I'm sure there has been a lot of water under the bridge between all of you that makes you leery, but numbers in front of a list of questions has a *LOT* more credibility to me than a claim in the shoutbox.

I would venture to say that anyone who answered that list would be taken more seriously than those who dance around questions.

If we're agreed that value is only to be given to objective data, then 99.9% of the banter in these threads could go away. Correct?

If someone has a tested and viable projectile they should be able to answer engineering-type questions, *UNLESS* they're worried about giving away the store. I can respect that. If that is the case would you mind checking back with us when you're prepared to release objective data?

John

 

[Augustus]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Gentlemen
I am not a manufacturer; however, I believe I am the only person on the planet that has the firsthand information required to answer LATERS LIST: ( In the case of the 375 ZAs )

1. 400 gr.
2. 2500-3050 fps
3. 3050
4. US 869, 152 gr. Dont use this load on any projo w/o working up to it!!!!
5. 30 in.
6A.Tested in two barrels, 1-8 and 13 to 6.5 gain
6B Transonic distance not determined
7. Max distance tested was 2560 yds, still demonstrated a sonic crack at this distance, I connot tell you what its velocity was at this point, only that it had a loud distinct crack as it passed overhead.
9. None
10. From the 6.5 twist no, from the 8 twist yes.
11. Yes, the 8 twist works fine up to 2600 or so, after that it requires the 6.5 twist to stabilise it to max vel.
12. Yes, see above.
13. I dont post pics, I will E-mail anyone interested a photo and you may post it if you like.
14. I am just a dumbass hillbllly who likes to shoot and will be having a lot of time to do so as I will be completing my 25 th year with the Oklahoma Highway Patrol on the 28th of this month. Ive about enjoyed all of it I can stand and will be retiring soon. As of the28th I will be on the 2-10-12 plan: You make me mad twice before 10 Ill be gone by 12.
15. The testing was done at 600 ft, Temps were 80-90 deg.
16. I dont know
17. I dont know

This info is for a 400 gr, 6.5 cal in length. There were other prototypes that the above info does not apply to. I would have to do this list over for each version as every one of them acted a little different. Hope this helps, also I will be shooting a 350 gr, a 385 gr, and a 400gr 375 from a different manufacturer next week. After the resulte have been compiled I will post the data if the suplier wishes. If he wants to sit on the info I will honor his wishes.

 

[ranger1183]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Condensed into the "easy to read" format

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am not interested in a projo that cant be driven with stability at max vel. from the Chey-tac case. </div></div>


Terry your above quote is quiet possibly the best sentence that has been injected into this thread in a long time. It is second only to the quote below.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C.K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This beyond 1000 yards sub forum truely is turning into the the biggest joke on this web site. Frank or one of the mods should put a disclaimer behind the sub title "for entertainment purposes only". This tread is a good example of the reasons nobody posts up any good info anymore. </div></div>


Now how about we make this an informative post once again by having you "bullet mfg" provide us readers the following information. (While we wait for Yuma results lol)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Gentlemen
I am not a manufacturer; however, I believe I am the only person on the planet that has the firsthand information required to answer LATERS LIST: ( In the case of the 375 ZAs )</div></div>



1. Weight of your 375 projectile?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. 400 gr.</div></div>

2. What the min and max MV that projectile is designed to be stable within?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2. 2500-3050 fps</div></div>

3. What is your MV?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3. 3050</div></div>

4. What powder you used to get said MV and stability?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">4. US 869, 152 gr. Dont use this load on any projo w/o working up to it!!!!</div></div>

5. What length barrel used to get said MV and stability?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5. 30 in.</div></div>

6. What twist rate use to get said MV and stability?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6A.Tested in two barrels, 1-8 and 13 to 6.5 gain</div></div>

6. What is the transonic distance of your projectile when using your twist, length, powder,
etc?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6B Transonic distance not determined</div></div>

7. What distances has that said stability been tested to?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">7. Max distance tested was 2560 yds, still demonstrated a sonic crack at this distance, I connot tell you what its velocity was at this point, only that it had a loud distinct crack as it passed overhead.</div></div>

8. Does projectile transition to subsonic good or poorly?

9. Is there any stability issues at close distances?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9. None</div></div>

10.Is there any stability issues at any distances?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">10. From the 6.5 twist no, from the 8 twist yes.</div></div>

11.Does the BC of your projo when used with your twist rate degrade, remain same, or improve
when manipulated within your min/max MV stability range?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">11. Yes, the 8 twist works fine up to 2600 or so, after that it requires the 6.5 twist to stabilise it to max vel.</div></div>

12.Do you need to change the twist rates to achieve proper stabilty when using said
projectile at the lower and upper end within your min/max MV range?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">12. Yes, see above.</div></div>

13.Show pictures of said rifle(s) that conducted the above test?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">13. I dont post pics, I will E-mail anyone interested a photo and you may post it if you like.</div></div>

14.Provide information on shooter(s) that conducted the above test?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">14. I am just a dumbass hillbllly who likes to shoot and will be having a lot of time to do so as I will be completing my 25 th year with the Oklahoma Highway Patrol on the 28th of this month. Ive about enjoyed all of it I can stand and will be retiring soon. As of the28th I will be on the 2-10-12 plan: You make me mad twice before 10 Ill be gone by 12.</div></div>

15.Provide environmental conditions that were present at each testing?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">15. The testing was done at 600 ft, Temps were 80-90 deg.</div></div>

16.What were all the variations noticed when testing at each "extreme" environmental
condition?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">16. I dont know</div></div>

17.Cost per 100 projectiles?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">17. I dont know</div></div>

18.Shipping terms (next day, 2 day, ground, etc)



NOTICE I did not ask the following

1. BC
2. Case used

By you guys taking the time and answering the above questions number by number (Instead of ya yaw'ing back and forth) it makes this thread a "non entertainment" but brings back an "information shop" that people are trying to get. The questions are simple and to the point so no need to waste readers times by attempting to side step any of the questions by asking a different question or bringing up some other thought/comment, etc. Its just straight forward answers guys.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This info is for a 400 gr, 6.5 cal in length. There were other prototypes that the above info does not apply to. I would have to do this list over for each version as every one of them acted a little different. Hope this helps, also I will be shooting a 350 gr, a 385 gr, and a 400gr 375 from a different manufacturer next week. After the resulte have been compiled I will post the data if the suplier wishes. If he wants to sit on the info I will honor his wishes.</div></div>

Thanks </div></div>

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

John,

Yes there has been alot of water under the bridge, and the projectile Augustus is describing was posted a very long time ago (by me). It is not the version to be released to the public, nor is it the version offered for comparison against other manufacturers products.

"Transparency" has not reduced rancor, nor has it brought clarity in the past. I recall someone else saying that recently.

The topic of this thread is "Highest BC bullet available". I am focusing on that topic narrowly for good reason. If I was posting under "New 4K System", my comments, and responses, would be different. The way to demonstrate this particular <span style="font-style: italic">subsystem</span> is precisely as I have suggested... to the lead of Ranger incidentally.

If you want "real world" information, that is the most efficient means to acquire it... and without all of the garbage cluttering up the discourse. I will simply leave it at that.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Nothing draws a crowd like a crowd, and...

Nothing draws a bigger crowd like a fight.

You guys are like wrestling, lots of fancy moves, techno babble, and positioning, but underneath it all, well I hear a lot, mostly from you, but it's a lot. I'm sure you each impress someone in your own small way.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The topic of this thread is "Highest BC bullet <span style="font-weight: bold">available</span>". I am focusing on that topic narrowly for good reason. </div></div>

Noel,

I appreciate your explanations and rationale (though, I may not necessarily agree with all of it...

)

I personally have no dog in this fight, at this time, but am watching with interest because if there is an aspect of shooting that interests me, it's ELR. I'm still exploring the limits of conventional jacketed projectiles and am finding them to me much further than conventional wisdom would seem to indicate. I plan to exhaust that path before turning to esoteric (read: expensive) solutions. But I like to be informed of the future...

"<span style="font-weight: bold">Available</span>" is a bit subjective, perhaps part of the problem, but I would argue that there is a VERY real opportunity here for someone and would only be able to be met by someone with something <span style="font-weight: bold">available</span>:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my request still stands. Anyone that has a 1.250 BC 375 cal projo that is ready for market, please OVERNITE them to me. Cost of shipping is not an issue. Also please include load data and what twist rate is needed to stabilize them at specified vel. I am not interested in a projo that cant be driven with stability at max vel. from the Chey-tac case. Anybody????? </div></div>

I think at the end of the day, this is what *really* matters to the majority of those of us who contribute in this sub-forum. Yes, we're interested in what's coming, but the bottom line for most of us is: "Who has something I can buy and shoot?" To me, that defines <span style="font-weight: bold">available</span>.

John

 

[jasonk]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

jrob300 focuses on the most important aspect of all bullets.....the highest BC bullets in the world do me no good if they are unobtanium.

 

[Extremist458]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Answers in order of posts.

Noel, I agee with you, we shall meet at the range. But until then, please refrain from insulting us any more, and that includes your little snide remarks. Or wait, maybe you will run from me again when you see me at the range like you did at the shot show...

Emouse, really? Because he miss-spelled a word, on a forum, you are going to say his bullets don't fly? How about the countless bullets he has sold over the past 18 years?

groper, um, what mistakes? You should pay attention and you might see that you completely missed something...the speed. I quote 3400fps in that video because that is all we though Mike would get from his 20/50, but HE reported back 3600, so the B.C. is as quoted, in relation to velocity. But why do you really have to be so condisending? You made a mistake and went overboard. I quote velocity per both, and they are relavent...you should hold your toung until you shoot them...just a thought.

ranger1183, unfortunately there is some history, and I have shared a little from time to time, but I have actually held back quite a bit. I'll just let it go for now, but I can tell you it's substantial...it would take a while to write.

groper, I heard from someone we'll be shooting against eachother, as per an invite (a guy named Oscar ring a bell?) Looking forward to it. You as well Noel.

Augustus, The bullets are finished, and for sale. These are not test subjects (other then the one noted). And we made the first of these bullets many months ago. I do agree with you, hence why we list 3 B.C.'s @ 3 velocities...and they have been tested. We do have bullets for you to shoot, anytime you are ready.

jrob300, sorry, but there is a lot of history. I don't want to fight in public, but this is where the fight keeps getting picked. One thing I can assure you, I do care, and that is why I could not stand for this type of garbage. I will tell you that this even included having the ATF called on us, MY NAVY CARREER QUESTIONED AND DISHONORED!, a good Christian brother of mine being missled and now doesn't speak to me, and even GS's customers being called and harrased and questioned...so I'm sorry you had to read all this...I'll will learn to let it go.

Noel, again...we have had a number of our bullets go down range, with better accuracy then the compitition, and they were from an 8 twist from 2700-3200fps, and shood be good up to 3500. In fact, the 414 will work in anything from an 8-9.2 twist, but don't know about any faster twists. Thank you.

Country, Yes, we agree, but we have to deal with market. Every company lists G1, so we go with it. Yes, it's not right, but it's for comparison. When Gerard gets a chance, he'll list G7, when he can pull himself out of 16+ hour days to actually take a breath. And since GS is the only company who makes a bullet much over G1 1 (like 750 A-Max or Barnes 800 who are just over 1 in G1), then we have to deal with most of the customers browsing or skimming over, not even looking into it until they have something to go by. Sorry, but what else should we do?

Noel, good point, let the projectiles do the talking (no sarcasm).

groper, agreed. We will list the avarage as well, but one has to generate that based off the velocity they are shooting it. So, we could answer that question if a customer gave us data.

Later, I will post data in the am. I just got back from a nice long drill with my unit and am looking forward to spending the evening with my lovely wife. So, will Post "Later"!

Noel, just FYI, Jon's 14.5, although much too big to be a small-arm, is ebbing on 5000m, and Anzio's 20/50 is a 4000m system...and who knows what Later will have in a very usable platform!

jasonk, agreed. Bullets listed are available and are GTG, along with the other 200+ bullets GS makes, with the exception of the 375 450, pending tests.

 

[Augustus]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

458, Im interested in the 414, how much do they cost and when can you ship?

 

[groper]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
groper, um, what mistakes? You should pay attention and you might see that you completely missed something...the speed. I quote 3400fps in that video because that is all we though Mike would get from his 20/50, but HE reported back 3600, so the B.C. is as quoted, in relation to velocity. But why do you really have to be so condisending? You made a mistake and went overboard. I quote velocity per both, and they are relavent...you should hold your toung until you shoot them...just a thought.

groper, I heard from someone we'll be shooting against eachother, as per an invite (a guy named Oscar ring a bell?) Looking forward to it. You as well Noel.

groper, agreed. We will list the avarage as well, but one has to generate that based off the velocity they are shooting it. So, we could answer that question if a customer gave us data.

</div></div>

Average G7 coefficient is what matters, and how accurate do you think a customers ballistic testing is going to be?

I have no issue with you personally Anthony, i simply wished you would keep your information objective, unambiguous and transparent. Quoting a G1 BC for an 1100grain projectile based on a muzzle velocity of 3600fps is very deceiving to say the least, dishonest perhaps not we wait and see, deceiving most definately.

You say you quote the G1 BC for comparison to other bullets, but how many people can hope to gain any sort of comparison from such extreme caveats? Its no different to saying my .375cal projectile has a G1 BC of 1.802 (which is actually quite accurate)... it doesnt mean anything when i put the caveat of 5000fps on it tho does it? Im sure a 20mm or simnilar case necked down to .375cal and a ridiculously long barrel could easily crack 5000fps, so its actually doable but does that mean i have something worth talking about and is this the BC i should be quoting for everyone to compare my bullets by? Hell no... So whats the real reason behind putting the information in such bizarre context? Why dont you simply admit, that you use this forum for shamelessly hyping your product?

I stand by my initial comments, and will continue to keep you honest or at least put things in perspective - if you cant do this yourself in future.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

What the fuck is it with this particular crowd? The same people slinging the same old shit and accusations at each other. Every time there's a thread like this it, down the crapper it goes...and all of this in front of potential customers? Fuck. Me. Dead.

My fault for reading it in the hope of picking some gems out of the excrement..

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

I <span style="font-style: italic">think</span> that since these bullets are intended for long or ultra long range use, and out of existing weapons, the BC (G1, G7 or whatever, clearly stated) should be based at least on TOF for 1000 yds, and corrected for longer ranges. It should be clearly stated if the BC is based on TOF measure from firing tests, or theoretical.

And of course the shooting platform and muzzle velocity should be reality based, most of these bullets are going to be shot out of existing rifles.

If a special twist, rifling specs, or chambering are required for a specific bullet design (so you have to build a very special gun to use these bullets) it should be said clearly.

Hell, Sierra has been providing 3 to 5 G1 BC for their bullets for the last 20 years or more, and based on firing tests, not calculations. Not perfect since they just reduce the muzzle velocity and test in a relatively short range, but much better than guessing.

And of course, a bullet with an exceptional high BC but that is very finicky and not too accurate at long range would not be worth the effort.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Well Groper, I think Anthony has made it very clear that he does consider it "productive" to end this nonsense. You will be receiving an invitation from a well known web publication soon... perhaps on this thread. I hope you find time in your busy schedule to accept it.


Anthony,

Let me extend an olive leaf, and assure you that I have had no part in any ATF activity against you, or GSC. I think that I know the identity of the good Christian friend that you are alluding to. If we are thinking about the same person, might I make a suggestion that you find out from him directly what his issues are. He is a difficult man to get ahold of, and that may be the problem you are experiencing.


Tiro Fijo,

It has been some time, but I do enjoy your comments. To your questions:

- Yes, these projectiles can be fired from existing actions.
- You do have to build a special rifle, and optimum performance comes from a complete system (not available in the immediate future).
- The projectile is accurate.
- 1,000 yard TOF data is better than nothing, but 2,000+ yards are necessary for the real advantages to manifest.


John,

I agree that "available" does have a somewhat subjective meaning. I am working on reducing that subjectivity. There is much more that is going on than is visible.

 

[Augustus]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Groper, I agree that G1 BC leaves something to be desired when predicting drop over long distances where there is a drastic change in MV. With that being said, I also believe it does not take expensive equipment to take several projos of different designs and compare them objectively. I believe firing several designs from the same rifle across two chronographs at the muzzle and using distances past 1500 yds will yield information that can be used to place the designs in order of highest to lowest BC. I also believe a G1 BC can be derived from this info that can be plugged into a ballistic program which will allow the user to have a usable firing solution. Everyone knows each system will have to be tweaked to obtain perfect firing solutions throughout the trajectory.

Even though this method is not perfect, it is very usful in comparing similar projos of different design.

 

[Extremist458]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Augustus, they are $68 a box, you can send your order in to ([email protected]).

groper, impressive once again. G7 is not what matters...it might be closer, but "Profiling" only works for the "average" bullet, and none listed here are, so it's closer, but still not correct. All we can offer is a comparative number, and I said we will give G7 if that's what you want, but it's still a computer number and it's not precise, only shooting them will give you what you need. And Ballistic testing? No, I'm saying they should provide the MV, range and cartridge and/or such to get and exact number, but then again, it's an average. What's funny is you say that the customer isn't going to be accurate in his ballistic testing, yet you say everyone needs to give that customer the precise data for them to use so they can be perfect...how about they shoot them and sight the rifle in? It's simple: if you like them, buy them; if not, then don't.

and then you attack again...if you don't like that data, go to the 1033, which is a real-world BMG bullet. That 1100 was made for Mike @ Anzio's big 20/50...we've got nothing to do with that speed, it's what Mike gives us. Not deceiving, just giving a comparison. So lay off, and do not call me dishonest again.

Hype our product, really? I responded to what was being "assumed" and guessed about our bullets...it's the title of the thread? Notice I don't post on here much at all, and never on my own accord about GS bullets? Whatever man.

Keeping me honest, what? You are really odd...can't wait to shoot against you.

Priest, sorry man, was actually trying to show these people what GS has done in the past 8 years and ended up having to defend. Meant you and no one else any trouble.

TiroFijo, again we agree, but one would have to shoot every different rifle on the market to get that specific data. So what we offer is to do the most of the work and give you that data, if the customer provides data for us to work with. We can give TOF only in the cartridges we have seen them shot out off, and those with the rifles are not set up to do so. What we have so far is a few rifles that are getting exceptional accuracy at long ranges and giving us data in return. This is why we haven't posted specific data on the website yet. We can only offer what we have so far. When the shop is up and running here, we will be more then happy to give our specific scenario with my rifle. You don't need a special system, just a faster twist rate. We make bullets for just about every twist rate out there as well, but just the extreme B.C. bullets are listed here.

Noel...how can I end it if you just keep insulting and speaking out against us? You are derogatory and I just don't like it...and the shenanigans you pulled have more then upset me; I am more then in the right to say as little as I have.

As to the ATF...you are lying. You called up Jon, a customer of ours and a good friend of mine, and explained to him that I was about to get arrested and put away for a long time by the ATF for ITAR violations, and that he had to cut all ties with me and GS to save him from investigation...then you insisted he sign an NDA and pay you the $3000 you needed for the license to make Destructive Device bullets for him...with a B.C. of 3.0! Wow, and we are off?

As for Mr. Sloan, I do know precisely what happened. You played off his fear of the unidentified 20mm case, which by the way is pure harmless, and gave him the same rhetoric about the ITAR violation and ATF and selling to known terrorist organizations (as you yourself even told me over the phone). You even got information from him, to include Jon's personal history and contact info. I know because I spoke with him and his wife...we were supposed to have dinner at the show, but he was too afraid of becoming involved in all this litigation and "smoke and mirrors" and afraid of losing his job...Noel, he was a friend to me when I needed one, and you not only cut his communication with me and turned him away from GS, but also upset him.

This cost me considerably. Sloan told Armstrong, and he was my boss at Crane, where I work in a TS facility...my chain of command got notified and I had to get JAG and my CO involved, just to prove I was not in the wrong...not to mention phone calls with the State Dept. and ATF. I am now in the process of renewing my security clearance and TS qualification. Yup, I am a little miffed about that one.

Noel, you are not a friend of mine, but we must remain at peace. So be it. I hope you all the best with your bullets (please note I have not insulted your bullets, since I have not shot them). God bless.

 

[Extremist458]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

P.S. I am still serving my country and would like to remain that way. I do not "work" for GS Custom bullets; it is my wife's company and I have extensive experience with them, as I have been shooting them for a decade now and have built a few firearms around their bullets. I help with techical assistance because Gerard is in South Africa, and is way to busy to take phone calls and answer all these e-mails, forum posts and questions. I help because I want to, not because it makes me any money...but now it has cost me to deal with the likes of those against GS; I don't take lightly to these sort of things. Never the less, what goes around, comes around. Just wanted to let ya'll know.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

I don't know if it is more amusing or more disappointing to read these things. One thing I have issue with is everyone fighting and then blaming the other guy for the continued fight.

Each of you have a choice to partake in the interwebz arguments or not. I can't tell you how many times over the past couple of years where I typed a long drawn out response that I wrote in an emtional state, then with my cursor hovering over the 'submit' button, I have decided this wasn't the place for that, and instead decided to refresh the forum main page instead. This may be a good practice for most of the post that end up in these 'beyond' threads.

You each have a choice to continue partaking in this, and there is really no honor in most of these posts, even when you feel you have to in order to defend your honor...

When in doubt... DON'T 'SUBMIT'

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: Highest BC bullet available?

Anthony,

Gaslight has a point.

As an aside, have your accuser give me a call.