Rifle Scopes Hitting 3.8 mils right while sighting rifle - doesn't seem right *Update base install and not receiver now suspect*

Northernjets

Sergeant of the Hide
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Mar 5, 2017
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As the title says, I zeroed my rifle and new Razor gen II in today and this resulted in me needing to put in L3.8mils to pull the shot to my POA. This leaves me with only L4.2 mils until I hit the travel stop. Seems odd to me that it would be firing almost a foot off at 100meters from the mechanical zero. Should I be concerned, or just leave it as is? Wind was coming from almost dead on behind me, and the 3.8 mils stayed trued at 25m/27yds, 100m/109yds and 600m/656yds.

If it at all matters, the relevant specs:
Savage 10TR .308win, 24" barrel, 1:10
ATRS rings and rail
Vortex Razor gen II 4.5-27x65mm EBR-2C MRAD
I did not/do not have the tools to lap the rings, but they seemed alright. Everything was put together with a torque wrench, with appropriate cross torquing methods.
 
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Just took a look and they are engaged on the rail. When I first put them on I put some forward pressure on them with a finger as they were torqued to keep pressure against the the faces of the rail and cross "lug" of the rings. I can't seem to see anything glaring obvious to the naked eye, so it has me a little stumped.

sGJEdAm.jpg

9R3TKRL.jpg


 
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Damn, those are really good pics for illustration. I don't see anything there, rail interface looks good and spacing on rings looks pretty uniform. Someone else may spot something though.
I agree that almost 4mils to zero at 100 would at least have me scratching my head. The good news is that you're in the right place and someone much smarter than me will likely come along and solve the mystery in about 10 seconds of troubleshooting and we'll both learn something in the process. The really good news is that it's a Vortex, so worst case and something is jacked internally (unlikely) then they'll make it right.
 
Yeah, there's a lot of people on here that have forgotten more than I know, so fingers crossed someone has seen something like this before that isn't a horribly hard fix. The Vortex warranty is definitely a big +1 for why I have the Razor and gen I PST. I had the PST on the rifle before, but don't remember the corrections for the sight in being anything significant. Problem is, I also replaced the rail along with the rings and scope, so it's not as easy as localizing the issue to one thing that was changed...
 
Way back in the foggy recesses of my brain, back on the original Hide, I'm pretty sure I remember a similar thread but I of course can't remember what the solution was.
I love the troubleshooting threads. As much as any other topic they are what makes this place pure gold: In all of our shooting lives we may have a tiny handful of issues, and we learn by figuring them out and fixing them. Here we get the collective experience of everyone's issues and resulting fixes. It's like shooting for several lifetimes
 
One things to perhaps try, if you still have the PST mounted on the rings and have not changed the turret settings on the scope, is to re-mount the PST on the newly installed rail on the rifle. If the windage is way off it would seem to point to the new rail/alignment perhaps being the issue. If it remains zeroed I would confirm where the windage is set on the PST and see where the windage zero point lies relative to the center point.

With as many things as you changed at one time it may help you to isolate the potential issue. If you find yourself with about the same 3.8 mil offset then it may just be that you have had the misalignment issue all along and have just become aware of it. Fairly common for receiver mount screws to be drilled slightly misaligned. Good luck!
 
Just wondering, did you float the turrets after 3.8 mRad was dialed. If you did not float the turrets you may still be able to get the full adjustment out of it. Theres 14 mRads internally and 10 mRads on the turret. While it may be very uncommon for something like this to happen, the factory zero may have been off. I doubt it, but you may never know.
 
Did you check to see that the scope was close to optical zero before you put it on? I've seen/had scopes come from a sealed box that were not even close to being centered. Before you mount any scope place the objective flat against a mirror that has good light shinning on it. If the scope is centered you will see but one set of cross hairs. If you are seeing two sets, knob it until you only see one. That will put it close enough for gov work. Then mount it. If the bore sight/bullet hole is still way off at 25 then you have a mount/ring/base/base hole/ barrel clocking/or barrel to receiver issue.
 
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Did you check to see that the scope was close to optical zero before you put it on? I've seen/had scopes come from a sealed box that were not even close to being centered. Before you mount any scope place the objective flat against a mirror that has good light shinning on it. If the scope is centered you will see but one set of cross hairs. If you are seeing two sets, knob it until you only see one. That will put it close enough for gov work. Then mount it. If the bore sight/bullet hole is still way off at 25 then you have a mount/ring/base/base hole/ barrel clocking/or barrel to receiver issue.

I've never heard that method before. Have you found some that are in the turret travel center but off on the optical center?
 
Questions:
  1. is this a new rifle?
  2. new chassis?
  3. if not, did the prior scope require a similar offset?
Trying to establish whether the mechanical offset could be attributed to rifle/assembly, itself.
There is a possibility that your scope is fine, but the barrel is not square, or somehow being pressured by the chassis. Or, the base rail mounting holes are off center...

just looking at it it from another angle, hope ya get it lined out!
 
This maybe a stupid observation on my part, but you do know to zero the scope you keep the main turret on 0 and move the internal turret to adjust zero. The reason I ask is because I see in the pic that you have the main turret on 3.8 mils. I guess you can move the main turret to see where zero needs to be then set it back to zero and then move the internal turret accordingly. Is that your method to set zero? If so you are missing one of the features of the Razor Gen 2 in that you can zero the scope anywhere/exactly where it needs to be and aren't limited to .10mils clicks.
 
As soon as I saw it was a Savage I had a pretty good bet on what is causing your issue. Savage is notorious for not drilling the scope rail mounting holes properly on their actions. This is not the first time I have heard about this happening with a Savage rifle....It happens all the time..If you didn't have a quality scope like the Vortex Razor with a good amount of internal adjustment you might not be able to zero it at all...Ray
 
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One things to perhaps try, if you still have the PST mounted on the rings and have not changed the turret settings on the scope, is to re-mount the PST on the newly installed rail on the rifle. If the windage is way off it would seem to point to the new rail/alignment perhaps being the issue. If it remains zeroed I would confirm where the windage is set on the PST and see where the windage zero point lies relative to the center point.

With as many things as you changed at one time it may help you to isolate the potential issue. If you find yourself with about the same 3.8 mil offset then it may just be that you have had the misalignment issue all along and have just become aware of it. Fairly common for receiver mount screws to be drilled slightly misaligned. Good luck!

The PST is now on another rifle that has been sighted in, and that sight in had no notable issues from what I remember. I don't recall needing too much for windage adjustments on the PST. 3.8 mils would have been around 13 MOA, which is more than a full turret rotation on the PST gen I.


Just wondering, did you float the turrets after 3.8 mRad was dialed. If you did not float the turrets you may still be able to get the full adjustment out of it. Theres 14 mRads internally and 10 mRads on the turret. While it may be very uncommon for something like this to happen, the factory zero may have been off. I doubt it, but you may never know.

What do you mean by "floating the turrets"? Does this mean going to both stops with the internal adjustment and then back to the center of internal adjustment?

Did you check to see that the scope was close to optical zero before you put it on? I've seen/had scopes come from a sealed box that were not even close to being centered. Before you mount any scope place the objective flat against a mirror that has good light shinning on it. If the scope is centered you will see but one set of cross hairs. If you are seeing two sets, knob it until you only see one. That will put it close enough for gov work. Then mount it. If the bore sight/bullet hole is still way off at 25 then you have a mount/ring/base/base hole/ barrel clocking/or barrel to receiver issue.

A little confused by this. I place a portable mirror near the objective and shone a light from the side onto the mirror and saw only one crosshair. Not entirely sure if I did it right however.



Questions:
  1. is this a new rifle?
  2. new chassis?
  3. if not, did the prior scope require a similar offset?



Trying to establish whether the mechanical offset could be attributed to rifle/assembly, itself.
There is a possibility that your scope is fine, but the barrel is not square, or somehow being pressured by the chassis. Or, the base rail mounting holes are off center...

just looking at it it from another angle, hope ya get it lined out!

Not a new rifle,
Newer chassis but has been to the range a few times before the new scope set up,
I honestly cannot for the life of me remember if the previous scope needed this much. I have it mounted on a Norinco M305 now, and don't recall having to use much to set it on zero. Having said that, I find the PST has a more difficult windage knob to read and a lot easier to get lost in how much total input has been added.

The MDT chassis has loads of room between it and the chassis and I haven't removed it from the chassis since I first installed it over 100 rounds ago. I'm having a hard time suspecting the scope as I saw all of two complains on the razor when I was doing my homework before purchasing. Everything else seemed to work as advertised too, and the tracking seemed repeatable (didn't do a formal track test but with all the turret moving I did yesterday, seemed to always return to where I needed it).

I'd yank off the current rings,throw XTR Signatures aboard,mechanically center windage and dump the remainder into inclination.

Nothing to it.

Trying to avoid dropping more money into this thing at the moment. The scope took majority of my fun money for the next while.


This maybe a stupid observation on my part, but you do know to zero the scope you keep the main turret on 0 and move the internal turret to adjust zero. The reason I ask is because I see in the pic that you have the main turret on 3.8 mils. I guess you can move the main turret to see where zero needs to be then set it back to zero and then move the internal turret accordingly. Is that your method to set zero? If so you are missing one of the features of the Razor Gen 2 in that you can zero the scope anywhere/exactly where it needs to be and aren't limited to .10mils clicks.

Yes, I am aware of the zero method method. I had forgotten my tool at the other firing bay, so I just used my turrets to zero and then set the internal zero once I got back to the other bay. Didn't touch my windage for most of the day as I was a little bothered by the 3.8 mils and was dwelling on it, but it is set now. As a side note, the method they use is super easy, and quite fast. Much better than the CRS shim system from the first gen PST.


As soon as I saw it was a Savage I had a pretty good bet on what is causing your issue. Savage is notorious for not drilling the scope rail mounting holes properly on their actions. This is not the first time I have heard about this happening with a Savage rifle....It happens all the time..If you didn't have a quality scope like the Vortex Razor with a good amount of internal adjustment you might not be able to zero it at all...Ray

I have read reports of that before, and there were a couple reports when the rifle was first released a few years ago. Problem is, it isn't a new rifle and I don't recall ever needing this much windage adjustment to pull it to the center.




At this point, I'm thinking either the receiver/rail or the rings are the suspects. Would taking a straight edge like a ruler or tape measure and placing it flush along the rail work for showing any offset from being missdrilled?
 
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+1

Learning a lot from this thread. The rail interface was my first thought and Pell had a great suggestion.

I totally misread what Pell wrote (still haven't had my daily coffee yet). I think I'll probably try out what he said. Only issue is I'll have to re zero, but I think I'll notice a 13 moa correction if it's the base/bore alignment. Really hoping it's not the holes in the receiver. At the very least, I'll probably take my scope off later today and do a quick look over on the rail without the optics on top.
 
As soon as I saw it was a Savage I had a pretty good bet on what is causing your issue. Savage is notorious for not drilling the scope rail mounting holes properly on their actions. This is not the first time I have heard about this happening with a Savage rifle....It happens all the time..If you didn't have a quality scope like the Vortex Razor with a good amount of internal adjustment you might not be able to zero it at all...Ray

This is most likely or...have you checked your barrel nut to be sure it's tight? Mine never backed off however I'd bet one way or another your scope rail isn't lining up with your barrel. Scope rail threads or barrel threads aren't aligned with each other.
 
I totally misread what Pell wrote (still haven't had my daily coffee yet). I think I'll probably try out what he said. Only issue is I'll have to re zero, but I think I'll notice a 13 moa correction if it's the base/bore alignment. Really hoping it's not the holes in the receiver. At the very least, I'll probably take my scope off later today and do a quick look over on the rail without the optics on top.

Write down and email yourself the scope corrections/dialing between guns. Using the Vortex "infinite" adjustment, I can get pretty much perfect zero or within .1 mil if I use the data. Always use torque wrenches and slide your mount all the way forward of course. This is primarily using the same mount (scope stays in the mount).

If moving the optic between mounts, you can get close, but have to measure/record the optic distances in relation to the specific rifle as there is a great deal of fore/aft movement possibilities.
 
This is most likely or...have you checked your barrel nut to be sure it's tight? Mine never backed off however I'd bet one way or another your scope rail isn't lining up with your barrel. Scope rail threads or barrel threads aren't aligned with each other.

I don't have a wrench for the barrel nut, but it is definitely more than finger tight. Using a straight edge and calipers, the holes in the base seem to be lined up fine. A little tricky checking the bore to base threads though. Don't have a drywall square and the only object I have that should be somewhat straight is my tape measure, but I can hardly call that anything close to a calibrated instrument. Might see how straight my cleaning rod is and try laying that down in the center of the rail.

Write down and email yourself the scope corrections/dialing between guns. Using the Vortex "infinite" adjustment, I can get pretty much perfect zero or within .1 mil if I use the data. Always use torque wrenches and slide your mount all the way forward of course. This is primarily using the same mount (scope stays in the mount).

If moving the optic between mounts, you can get close, but have to measure/record the optic distances in relation to the specific rifle as there is a great deal of fore/aft movement possibilities.


That is already the standard practice that I use. Scopes are usually a long term install for me. Don't have enough rifles to justify swapping scopes around.
 
So I pulled out the cleaning rods, leveled my rifle and laid the rod in the groove of the base. Both rods are definitely biased towards the left hand side of the rifle as per the pictures. Just to removed any doubts from a bent cleaning rod, I rotated the rods and the silver one stayed in the same spot throughout. Carbon fiber rod has a slight bend, but still stayed biased to the center and left hand side. Again, I do not think it is the rail at this point, as the screw hole to edge measurements stayed consistent and the screws seem to be perfectly well inline (also not an el cheapo off the shelf rail). I personally find this really annoying, but given what I've heard about the hit or miss warranty up in Canada, the fact the rifle shoots quite well, and I'm in no way getting into competitive shooting any time soon, I might just live with it until I get a new rifle or eventually get an adjustable base or rings as previously mentioned. Thoughts and opinions on that route?

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Somebody at a match was telling me a week ago that his gun wasn't shooting straight and it was driving him nuts. Like the person above, it turned out to be his barrel was loose.

It happens.


Rifles shoot loose...they do not shoot tight.

Hint.


I think it's more of a base screw holes issue than a loose barrel issue. Like I said, don't have a barrel nut wrench to do a true torque check, but the nut is definitely more than hand tight and I feel no movement in the barrel. Rifle groups under moa, except it happens to be 3.8 mils to the right. At this point, with the results I shared on the previous page, I'm pretty sure it's the holes that were drilled angled towards the left, which would point the barrel to the right when the scope is centered.
 
Yup I was going to say the base holes as that is a common issue in Remingtons and why people get them opened to 8-40s. Once you used the correct zeroing method by using the center inner dial how many mils of travel do you have right and left from zero when dialing the knob?
 
Yup I was going to say the base holes as that is a common issue in Remingtons and why people get them opened to 8-40s. Once you used the correct zeroing method by using the center inner dial how many mils of travel do you have right and left from zero when dialing the knob?

I have 7 mils right and 3.6 left. I essentially lose half of my total left travel.
 
I have 7 mils right and 3.6 left. I essentially lose half of my total left travel.

If above is true and your scope has a total of 10.6 mils of windage then your optical center should give 5.3 mils left/right adjustment in a perfect world. As is, it appears your windage zero falls about 1.7 mils off of the optical center. While not perfect, this should still give you very usable performance if you normally hold for wind.

In other words, don't over worry this. Mount it, shoot it, and enjoy your rifle and scope.
 
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If above is true and your scope has a total of 10.6 mils of windage then your optical center should give 5.3 mils left/right adjustment in a perfect world. As is, it appears your windage zero falls about 1.7 mils off of the optical center. While not perfect, this should still give you very usable performance if you normally hold for wind.

In other words, don't over worry this. Mount it, shoot it, and enjoy your rifle and scope.

Sorry, I should clarify that total adjustment for the Razor gen II is actually 7 mils either way for a total of 14 before any internal adjustments are made. With my adjustment to the internal zero, I now only have 3.6 mils of travel to pull the shot left. I still retain the full 7 mil travel to the right.

Looking at Trasol and BallisticsARC, if there's a 15mph travelling perfectly left to right of me, I should still be alright up until ~700m/765yds with corrections made with only the turret. Max range near me is 600M, but I would like to stretch it further one day as there is a mile long range about 4-5 hours from me. I'll live with it for now, as I'm at least a year or so away from feeling confident enough for anything over the 600M around here anyway.
 
With a sound platform and just a smidge of sense,the bullet goes where the crosshairs are when the shot breaks.

If you could miss a milk jug at 600yds...you'd rate a Handicapped Parking placard.

I'm fairly new to shooting in general (~3 years of actual trigger time and ownership) and only shot over 200 yards for the first time yesterday, and also first time using MRAD instead of MOA. Believe it or not, not everyone is raised up around guns. I hit the target consistently after some adjustments (ballistics calculation was a little off with my inputted data), but it was a freebie easy day with the wind coming directly from behind me. I would prefer to learn judging wind and distances better before stretching out farther. Rome wasn't built in a day and I don't have infinite time and sums of money to throw at ammo down a range 5 hours from me if I have no idea how to call wind.
 
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As I said in an earlier post and your pictures pretty much prove it. Your scope base is not square with your action and barrrel due to the holes in the action being drilled slightly to the left. Your scope will compensate for the misalignment. If the rifle shoots good you can just live with it. I realize we are not talking about a 4k custom, but that being said that type of shoddy workmanship is still unacceptable....Ray
 
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As I said in an earlier post and your pictures pretty much prove it. Your scope base is not square with your action and barrrel due to the holes in the action being drilled slightly to the left. Your scope will compensate for the misalignment. If the rifle shoots good you can just live with it. I realize we are not talking about a 4k custom, but that being said that type of shoddy workmanship is still unacceptable....Ray

Well I can definitely live with it for the time being. It's more of a trainer rifle for me and it touches the farthest targets at my range right now with no issues anyway. Is it something that could be repaired by upsizing to 8-40 screws as mentioned by Rob01, or something that needs to have a base custom fitted to the rifle? I was considering having the rifle eventually re-barelled in a 6.5mm cartridge later down the road, but with this issue, unless it's a relative cheap fix, I think I'll save my pennies for a new rifle down the road.

Funny you mentioned shoddy workmanship. I was talking with a friend the other day and we found it amusing that a $600 rifle is considered a budget starter gun. Not too many hobbies out there where $600 is considered going in cheap outside of motorized hobbies. Definitely not happy with the offset though. Pretty bad when you consider my Norinco M305 from some workshop in China is almost bang on with the optics and a blackfeather mount. Having said that, the rifle is a decent shooter, and the biggest limiting factor is myself. Prone off a bipod at 100M/109yards, I can ring out 5 shot ~0.5-0.75 moa groups all day with 42.5 grains of N140 behind a 168gr Amax.
 
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Well I can definitely live with it for the time being. It's more of a trainer rifle for me and it touches the farthest targets at my range right now with no issues anyway. Is it something that could be repaired by upsizing to 8-40 screws as mentioned by Rob01, or something that needs to have a base custom fitted to the rifle? I was considering having the rifle eventually re-barelled in a 6.5mm cartridge later down the road, but with this issue, unless it's a relative cheap fix, I think I'll save my pennies for a new rifle down the road.

Funny you mentioned shoddy workmanship. I was talking with a friend the other day and we found it amusing that a $600 rifle is considered a budget starter gun. Not too many hobbies out there where $600 is considered going in cheap outside of motorized hobbies. Definitely not happy with the offset though. Pretty bad when you consider my Norinco M305 from some workshop in China is almost bang on with the optics and a blackfeather mount. Having said that, the rifle is a decent shooter, and the biggest limiting factor is myself. Prone off a bipod at 100M/109yards, I can ring out 5 shot ~0.5-0.75 moa groups all day with 42.5 grains of N140 behind a 168gr Amax.

Do Burris sig z rings and forget about the screws. As for $600.00 being a cheap hobby intro, don't get into Ham Radio, Machine tools, or Wood working. Not of those hobby's are cheap but my kids say they are glad I did as when I'm gone their inheritance will convert back to something they can use, LOL
 
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Pretty sure it's an easy fix for a GS. It's an unfortunate hassle but far from something that would keep me from buying another Savage. In a world full of +$1k factory rifles and semi and full customs ranging from $2k-$6k, that rifle seems like a bargain for a good shooting rifle. Don't listen to the Savage haters. I only own 1 Savage but it's a terrific shooter producing regular sub .4moa groups and some .2s & .3s when I do my part. Still working on loads to get consistent groups in the .3s. A little issue here or there with a relatively inexpensive MASS produced rifle is no big deal, imo. Take it in, get it fixed and love your rifle! Sure cheaper than spending $4k on a custom rifle that shoots about the same.


Keep in mind, lots of guys are shooting R700s that are more expensive and the owners (me included) swapped out the trigger before shot #1 was fired, because Remington triggers suck. You don't hear about 'shoddy workmanship' in that case - it's just par for the course. I'll be surprised if it costs you as much as one of my Jewells costs to get those screw holes fixed.
 
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This all seems like fairly good advice. I'll stick with how the rifle is for now. If I notice it impacting what I'm currently doing, I'll try adjustable rings first. If that doesn't tickle my fancy, I'll try the gunsmith route once I've gotten bored of .308win and feel like rebarrelling to 6.5cm, lapua or .260. Might as well make the trip worth it as there aren't any gunsmiths near my area. This all assuming I don't just buy a new rifle down the road.

The thing I liked about the Savage was low starting costs for a precision rig. This is my first and so far only bolt action rifle, so I don't regret buying it. Is it an annoying problem? Yes. Has it been my only problem? Yep. I really can't get angry considering these things go for around 650 CAD on sale up here. Having said that, the aftermarket world seems a lot more Remington footprint friendly and no one ever said I had to stop with just one rifle ;)
 
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Give savage a call and see what they have to say about it,you have a quality scope that needs to be optically centered to get to get the full range of adjustment that you payed good money for. for that reason. why sell yourself short by a poor quality control of the rile your mounting the scope on to begin with.
 
Right now, the biggest issue at hand is the fact that the warranty is only good for a year from date of purchase (according to their website). I bought the rifle almost 2-3 years ago if memory serves me right. The issue was a lot less obvious with the PST I had previously put on the rifle. Then the rifle sat in the safe for a year as I was bouncing around the country for training. Fast forward to Friday, and it was the first time I've been out with the Razor. I have also heard some bad things about the approved warranty/repair center in Canada. I suppose it would do no harm to give them a ring though.
 
It wouldn't hurt to give them a call, see what they have to say and go from there. then you can make the next decision on how to go about fixing the problem if you see it warrants an adjustment or repair by a smith.
 
Had a bit of an "Aha!" moment this afternoon. Removed the scope base and put my original 0 MOA EGW on. It seemed to center nicely. Okay. Weird. I put the ATRS rail back on backwards. No change, still pointing to the left. That's when I noticed that the base comes with standard Torx screws with no countersink (self centering we'll say). Tried the countersunk screws from the torx rail and it seemed to center better. Removed those screws, but the ATRS rail back on in the correct direction with the 2 front screws put on first. I noticed that the rail has some play left and right before the screws are torqued down. Did the same test I did yesterday with my cleaning rod and low and behold it looks centered now. Put the rear screws in and it seems to want to pull the front of the rail towards the left. This was all without the official torques. Will see what happens if I snug the front screws, then rear and final torque front to back. Hopefully it stays lined up.
 
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So the scope base seems to be more or less lined up now, at least close enough that it shouldn't require 3.8 mils unless something else is in fact wrong. This is one hell of a learning experience to say the least. Won't be able to test the rifle out until the coming weekend, but fingers crossed this solves the problem for me.

A little hard to see at the muzzle, but in the "after" shot, the flat for the wrench on the muzzle brake is showing up fairly even on either side.

Before and after realigning
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