Hold for heavy recoil

[Woolsocks]

Does a rifle with heavy recoil need to be held “tight” for accuracy? I generally find holding loosely gives me better accuracy with my .243 and .270. I often dont put my left hand on the forend at all.

Shooting my 28 nos and 300prc, I’ll usually hold the forend lightly with two fingers, or with my thumb under and two fingers laying on top of the barrel (which feels better, for some reason) See photos. Videos of me shooting show most of the recoil coming straight back, but the barrel does jump up an inch or so. Should I be holding tighter? I’m getting some fliers. Trying to see if the gun jumping up has anything to do with it.

 

[iceng]

Nope. Bad hold. BUT if it works... who am i to judge.

 

[MK20]

Your entire body position is sub optimal. I highly recommend you sign up for the online training here for a month and binge the video tutorials. They will help you a lot.

 

[DocRDS]

Relaying what I remember so take with grain of salt: Heavy Recoil requires more 'pressure' to hold the rifle. Also @MK20 is correct, those shooting benches are a crime against humanity. Get sqaure behind the rifle. Often with those benches I sit behind the the "T" and even lean over in a modified prone. Shooting benches make very bad form. Listen to "Everyday Sniper" podcast when they talk about Alaska Classes, benches come up frequently. They are NOT our friend!

 

[Haney]

Have you tried putting your hand on scope/front ring ? Looks light in the front and with the light weight rest I bet it's jumping quite a bit . You may find if you just lean into it a little more than usual you will shoot fine .

 

[Ronws]

I don't know a lot but I do know that prone is the most stable and accurate set-up with the body longitudinally in line with the rifle and the feet splayed outward. Any other position will bring less accuracy because of more chances to move. The worst is off-hand, though that might be the only shot if you jump a deer at less than 50 yards. Past that, don't even try. Start high and let gravity slowly bring you into the zone. But, 99 percent of the time, it is simply better to wait for the supported shot.

As for how to manage recoil, I prefer to put softer pads or slip-ons on. Or wear a shooter's pad. I can do that because I am not in the military where you get punished for padding. But I still press firmly against the shoulder.

It depends on what you are doing. When I hunt deer, there is just about no way to do prone. So, I use a tripod with a clamp. The clamp holds the rifle. When I am ready to shoot, I loosen it to allow free recoil. And the butt is against my shoulder, no rear bag. So, at the range, I can work with a short table, like the indoor ranges, because the butt will be against my shoulder, not on a rear bag. Although, I can brace the butt with my off hand.

 

[Woolsocks]

Good feedback on form. Yeah, I’ve usually shot prone out in a hayfield somewhere. Now that I’m in the suburbs I’m having to learn how to shoot at a range. Sounds like the tutorials on here are a good start.

Do you think the barrel jumping up has anything to do with the fliers? I’m wondering if others have experience fliers from lightweight sporter rifles in larger calibers that has been traced back to “needing to hang on tighter”, or if that’s not one of the variables I need to look at. Understood that most fliers are the nut behind the trigger, just trying to collect data here…

 

[Haney]

A bag/s of some kind may suit you much better than trying to turn a hunting rifle into a bench gun with a light hard front rest .

 

[kthomas]

I hate shooting from a bench, unless it's a modified prone position.

Benches are setup horribly for recoil management practices.

At ranges, I pretty much always shoot prone. Bipod front, back rear. You have to be really intentional with your rear bag technique when shooting with higher recoiling cartridges - you can get away with a lot with a BR cartridge or 6.5 Creedmoor. But that same technique can quickly humble you when going to the .30+ cals.

You have to "gorilla grip" the rear bag and the "ears" when shooting higher recoiling cartridges. @Enough Said has a great article/thread here on this, if you decide to go prone.

 

[Ronws]

@Woolsocks
Muzzle flip happens with every shot. As long as everything else is consistent, it is probably the least influential on a flier.

Which is why one of most challenging aspects is marksmanship consistency. Same position and rest every time, same squeeze every time.

That being said, here is the cause of error from most important to last.

1. shooter
2. ammo
3. rifle (and associated parts.)

I have watched so many people use a lead sled and still get fliers. This is because of differing velocities. Higher velocities can impact higher.

There is also theoretical barrel whip. Not just the rocking up of the rifle on recoil but the flex of the barrel.

Add to this that barrels might have a slight internal curve. If you could tell which way the curve was, you could account for that.

Also, even if you handload and measure carefully to match each slug to the same weight and each charge weight is just about matching, you can still get changes because mass distribution or center of mass difference. Essentially, this could give the slug a wobble that develops into something like a "dutch roll" and seems to vary the impact.

Another reason for a flier is shooter fatigue. And or flinching. Or booger flicking (flicking the finger off the trigger instead of holding it after the shot breaks.) Each person's body reacts to recoil differently. You could zero a rifle and it would not be zeroed for me. I would have to zero for myself. In addition, muscle and tissue and can change from impact to impact.

Jayden Quinlan on the Hornady podcast about group counts spoke about this. Guys tend to protect their investments by claiming a flier was their fault. "Dang it, that one was me."

His response is, okay, why is it you? Did you do anything different? Did the rifle fall or move from its position? Did you change to another brand and weight of ammo for the last shot? No? If you did everything right and consistent, then the system has another input of error.

Is muzzle flip contributing to your flier? I am willing to bet in my limited understanding that it might be a variability in ammo.

 

[Woolsocks]

@Woolsocks
Muzzle flip happens with every shot. As long as everything else is consistent, it is probably the least influential on a flier.

Which is why one of most challenging aspects is marksmanship consistency. Same position and rest every time, same squeeze every time.

That being said, here is the cause of error from most important to last.

1. shooter
2. ammo
3. rifle (and associated parts.)

I have watched so many people use a lead sled and still get fliers. This is because of differing velocities. Higher velocities can impact higher.

There is also theoretical barrel whip. Not just the rocking up of the rifle on recoil but the flex of the barrel.

Add to this that barrels might have a slight internal curve. If you could tell which way the curve was, you could account for that.

Also, even if you handload and measure carefully to match each slug to the same weight and each charge weight is just about matching, you can still get changes because mass distribution or center of mass difference. Essentially, this could give the slug a wobble that develops into something like a "dutch roll" and seems to vary the impact.

Another reason for a flier is shooter fatigue. And or flinching. Or booger flicking (flicking the finger off the trigger instead of holding it after the shot breaks.) Each person's body reacts to recoil differently. You could zero a rifle and it would not be zeroed for me. I would have to zero for myself. In addition, muscle and tissue and can change from impact to impact.

Jayden Quinlan on the Hornady podcast about group counts spoke about this. Guys tend to protect their investments by claiming a flier was their fault. "Dang it, that one was me."

His response is, okay, why is it you? Did you do anything different? Did the rifle fall or move from its position? Did you change to another brand and weight of ammo for the last shot? No? If you did everything right and consistent, then the system has another input of error.

Is muzzle flip contributing to your flier? I am willing to bet in my limited understanding that it might be a variability in ammo.

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! I’m about to do load development (first time reloading), and wanted to see if the barrel jump was something I needed to work on first.

Need to do more shooting, but so far I’m seeing my 28nos do some interesting things I’ve never seen with my .243 and .270. Nosler factory ammo shoots 6moa groups, then a random flier like 2 feet away. The ammo hand loaded by the rifle manufacturer shoots 1/2 moa groups with an occasional “flier” that’s maybe 1 moa away from the group (in each case the flier always feels “off” when it shoot, so it’s probably a flinch). I’ve never seen that much descepancy between ammo types in the old Remingtons and Brownings I used growing up. They would shoot pretty much anything - some ammo better than others, but it wasn’t drastic. Left me wondering if I was doing something horribly wrong that was throwing off my results, such as not holding tight enough.

One interesting thing I’ve noticed with the 28nos. When shooting the 6moa ammo the recoil feels weird. It’s hard to describe, but it’s similar to the feel my bow gives me when it’s out of tune, like it keeps vibrating longer than it should or jerks in an unexpected direction. It’s impossible to describe, you just feel like something is off. The 1/2moa ammo feels “right”, more of a solid “whump” with straight-back recoil and nothing unexpected. Or maybe it’s all in my head. Anybody else “feeling“ a difference when your barrel doesn’t like a load, or maybe I just need to take off my tin foil hat?

Here’s what I do know about the handloaded ammo from the manufacturer that “feels” good and shoots well.
1. It’s fairly “hot” (muzzle velocity corresponds with the top end of the reloading chart)
2. It’s seated .03 further out than the factory ammo the gun doesn’t like.
3. It’s a different bullet type (acubond in the manufacturer’s ammo vs ABLR/Eldx/ballistic tips the factory ammo that performs poorly)

Fascinating stuff..

 

[Hickswr]

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! I’m about to do load development (first time reloading), and wanted to see if the barrel jump was something I needed to work on first.

Need to do more shooting, but so far I’m seeing my 28nos do some interesting things I’ve never seen with my .243 and .270. Nosler factory ammo shoots 6moa groups, then a random flier like 2 feet away. The ammo hand loaded by the rifle manufacturer shoots 1/2 moa groups with an occasional “flier” that’s maybe 1 moa away from the group (in each case the flier always feels “off” when it shoot, so it’s probably a flinch). I’ve never seen that much descepancy between ammo types in the old Remingtons and Brownings I used growing up. They would shoot pretty much anything - some ammo better than others, but it wasn’t drastic. Left me wondering if I was doing something horribly wrong that was throwing off my results, such as not holding tight enough.

One interesting thing I’ve noticed with the 28nos. When shooting the 6moa ammo the recoil feels weird. It’s hard to describe, but it’s similar to the feel my bow gives me when it’s out of tune, like it keeps vibrating longer than it should or jerks in an unexpected direction. It’s impossible to describe, you just feel like something is off. The 1/2moa ammo feels “right”, more of a solid “whump” with straight-back recoil and nothing unexpected. Or maybe it’s all in my head. Anybody else “feeling“ a difference when your barrel doesn’t like a load, or maybe I just need to take off my tin foil hat?

Here’s what I do know about the handloaded ammo from the manufacturer that “feels” good and shoots well.
1. It’s fairly “hot” (muzzle velocity corresponds with the top end of the reloading chart)
2. It’s seated .03 further out than the factory ammo the gun doesn’t like.
3. It’s a different bullet type (acubond in the manufacturer’s ammo vs ABLR/Eldx/ballistic tips the factory ammo that performs poorly)

Fascinating stuff..

Dude- 6MOA and a 2’ flier??? There’s SERIOUS issues at play here.

 

[Woolsocks]

Dude- 6MOA and a 2’ flier??? There’s SERIOUS issues at play here.

Hence me wondering if my hold is totally wrong or something.

But the ammo hand-loaded by the manufacturer shoots 1/2moa.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Hence me wondering if my hold is totally wrong or something.

But the ammo hand-loaded by the manufacturer shoots 1/2moa.

I'd start checking for torques on all screws and the barrel, plus damage to crown and scope.

Switch scopes if all the current torques are good, see if you still have the problem.

 

[Enough Said]

Does a rifle with heavy recoil need to be held “tight” for accuracy? I generally find holding loosely gives me better accuracy with my .243 and .270. I often dont put my left hand on the forend at all.

Shooting my 28 nos and 300prc, I’ll usually hold the forend lightly with two fingers, or with my thumb under and two fingers laying on top of the barrel (which feels better, for some reason) See photos. Videos of me shooting show most of the recoil coming straight back, but the barrel does jump up an inch or so. Should I be holding tighter? I’m getting some fliers. Trying to see if the gun jumping up has anything to do with it.

View attachment 8378465View attachment 8378464

In the photos above, youdon't have your body behind the rifle, accepting and dissipating recoil straight back. You are bladed because of the design of the bench, which should be square in the back allowing you to be straight behind the rifle.

The butt stock should be in your shoulder, not on your deltoid - but again, that bench design is suffering you.
Your rifle is being allowed to recoil high and likely right also because of the position.

Rear support is weak. The rifle is merely resting, not being controlled as with a proper rear bag.

My attached photo shows a shooter properly behind the rifle on a square bench last summer at our course in Nebraska.

--- Taylor

 

[Woolsocks]

In the photos above, youdon't have your body behind the rifle, accepting and dissipating recoil straight back. You are bladed because of the design of the bench, which should be square in the back allowing you to be straight behind the rifle.

The butt stock should be in your shoulder, not on your deltoid - but again, that bench design is suffering you.
Your rifle is being allowed to recoil high and likely right also because of the position.

Rear support is weak. The rifle is merely resting, not being controlled as with a proper rear bag.

My attached photo shows a shooter properly behind the rifle on a square bench last summer at our course in Nebraska.

--- Taylor

Ah, so maybe the weird feeling recoil is a result of the shooting position. I’m not actually feeling wonky barrel harmonics…

In any case, seems like folks agree that the barrel kicking up isn’t going to cause fliers. I guess the bullet is gone by then…

 

[Enough Said]

Ah, so maybe the weird feeling recoil is a result of the shooting position. I’m not actually feeling wonky barrel harmonics…

In any case, seems like folks agree that the barrel kicking up isn’t going to cause fliers. I guess the bullet is gone by then…

There are a dozen errors a shooter can make between the release of the firing pin and the projectile leaving the barrel and each of them or a combination of all can cause an errant shot.

Fundamentals are essential.

Hope you get it all worked out.

Taylor

 

[vh20]

In the photos above, youdon't have your body behind the rifle, accepting and dissipating recoil straight back. You are bladed because of the design of the bench, which should be square in the back allowing you to be straight behind the rifle.

The butt stock should be in your shoulder, not on your deltoid - but again, that bench design is suffering you.
Your rifle is being allowed to recoil high and likely right also because of the position.

Rear support is weak. The rifle is merely resting, not being controlled as with a proper rear bag.

My attached photo shows a shooter properly behind the rifle on a square bench last summer at our course in Nebraska.

--- Taylor

OP - The above is the answer to your question. Get a GOOD bipod, a good rear bag, put your rifle in the middle of your bench so that your body is behind the “T”, which will allow you to get your shoulders SQUARE to the rifle, and your body in “modified prone” (hips well behind shoulders). Recoil will always take the path of least resistance, and so will exploit any weakness in your position. If you aren’t square, where do you expect the stock is going to go ( and the muzzle going the opposite direction).

 

[st1650]

Relaying what I remember so take with grain of salt: Heavy Recoil requires more 'pressure' to hold the rifle. Also @MK20 is correct, those shooting benches are a crime against humanity. Get sqaure behind the rifle. Often with those benches I sit behind the the "T" and even lean over in a modified prone. Shooting benches make very bad form. Listen to "Everyday Sniper" podcast when they talk about Alaska Classes, benches come up frequently. They are NOT our friend!

I do the same thing, sit behind the T. It's especially more noticeable with a high recoil/light weight rifle.
Anyone can get away with anything with a 20lbs 6BR with a 4 port brake.

 

[308pirate]

Your entire body position is sub optimal. I highly recommend you sign up for the online training here for a month and binge the video tutorials. They will help you a lot.

I'm surprised he hasn't smashed his eye socket yet

 

[308pirate]

I’m not actually feeling wonky barrel harmonics

Ummmm........barrel vibrations happen far too fast and are of a magnitude far too small for a human to feel them.

So no

 

[45-90]

I never shoot off a bench, these days, and haven't shot off a bench in any competition since Nixon...quit the rifle club cause they offer nothing I'm interested in.
So I can't answer any benchrest questions.
I shoot prone, on my belly, so I tend to hard hold to get better groups, and get on it, to spot my own hits..don't need a spotter...even with an unbreaked 308 back
in the day, the cartridge of choice... then.
Can't spot your own hits?.. Just increase the range to the target.
Shoot the 300 and 50BMG with brakes, but still in the prone...

 

[FimRire RongLifle]

Getting behind the bench as pics above show will let you practice at one of those suboptimal range ergonomics. Sitting and using that concrete shelf that's dying to be a prone position might be an option if they allow it for some rifle yoga.
The bright side it's barricade shooting in a sense as long as you don't sit at those awful things.
Id ditch the front rest also it's one less trip to the car and go bipod and rear bag to make the best out of the location.
I do wish many of America's trapped in the 1960-1970 benchest ranges would consider a 25-50% revamp by tearing out every other bench. Even though most are 100-200 yard it still allows for something and rimfire.
What's the bullet weights of the 6moa ammo? It would take an abject failure to stabilize generally to produce that by too heavy for twist and by a very large margin. Are you sure it's not 26 nosler being fired from a 28 rifle? Parent case is same and since we've all likely seen the 6 creed in a 6.5 move that's a possible experience.

 

[308pirate]

I do wish many of America's trapped in the 1960-1970 benchest ranges would consider a 25-50% revamp by tearing out every other bench.

The only thing fudder than shooting rifles from benchrests is shooting pistols from same.

 

[Woolsocks]

Getting behind the bench as pics above show will let you practice at one of those suboptimal range ergonomics. Sitting and using that concrete shelf that's dying to be a prone position might be an option if they allow it for some rifle yoga.
The bright side it's barricade shooting in a sense as long as you don't sit at those awful things.
Id ditch the front rest also it's one less trip to the car and go bipod and rear bag to make the best out of the location.
I do wish many of America's trapped in the 1960-1970 benchest ranges would consider a 25-50% revamp by tearing out every other bench. Even though most are 100-200 yard it still allows for something and rimfire.
What's the bullet weights of the 6moa ammo? It would take an abject failure to stabilize generally to produce that by too heavy for twist and by a very large margin. Are you sure it's not 26 nosler being fired from a 28 rifle? Parent case is same and since we've all likely seen the 6 creed in a 6.5 move that's a possible experience.

Replying back to the 6MOA question. Despite some admonitions to not worry about jump to the lands until I get other things sorted out, I did the “loctite method” and found something interesting. If my measurement was accurate, the lands are .120 forward of a standard SAAMI-length factory load. Thats 1/8” of jump. I’d imagine that would do odd things. The curious thing is that some ammo actually made the jump and shot very accurately..

I have an OAL guage and cartridge on the way from hornady to confirm. Meanwhile I’m scratching my head trying to figure out why a barrel straight from the factory to me would be cut that deep. Not a terrible thing, actually helps avoid compressed loads which are annoyingly common in this caliber. It’s just weird that nobody told me. If the OAL gauge tells me the same story, I’m calling the factory to have a chat with whoever cut the chamber.

 

[JHoman]

I shoot a Fierce Carbon Rogue 22" in 300WM, I'm currently handloading a 185 Berger VLD Hunter in it. I had trouble getting it to group, called Berger and they advised me to move out to .050 jump and move out from there. They said the VLD's needed to jump in some rifles. I'm now shooting 1/2" MOA at 100 yards with a .100 jump. Blows my mind. As far as holding it for recoil, I have a EC tuner break on it and shoot off bipods with rear bag off the bench. I still have a lot to learn about body positioning & the recoil is really not that bad.

 

[smoothy8500]

Meanwhile I’m scratching my head trying to figure out why a barrel straight from the factory to me would be cut that deep.

Yeah, maybe their engineers learned that from Remington's lawyers in the 1980's.....Regardless, most (of course not all) modern projectiles as mentioned above are quite jump tolerant.