HoOdRaT 2.0 The winter project lives...

[LRI]

New engine program for this year. Bigger holes, more squeeze, and more boost.

Tigging up the coolant ports on the heads as I went to copper head gaskets and top fuel rings. With ARP CA625 head studs, this should manage the 12.5:1 static compression and 40psi boost. The block is now completely hard-filled. No coolant passages remain.

Hoping for low 5-second 1/8 mile passes with an IRS rear end on a 10.5 wide slick. All steel car at 3400lbs. A tall order, but it'll be fun to try.


Softening chambers:

Softening chambers 2:

Chamber work done along with adding coolant entry/exit ports to front/rear of head.

New blower driver pulley. 65T on this one. This puts us +15%OD now.

 

[Californio]

NICE

 

[LRI]

Depreciating my neighborhood last evening around 9:30pm. Thankfully I live next to a bunch of seniors that are deaf as a post. Lol.

 

[MarinePMI]

Depreciating my neighborhood last evening around 9:30pm. Thankfully I live next to a bunch of seniors that are deaf as a post. Lol.

<chuckle> You've got too much time on your hands Chad.

 

[Duc]

How many GPM of coolant are you pushing thru the heads? Coolant to the heads Electric pump or driven?

Sounds awesome!!

edited for lack of reading comprehension!

 

[Average guy]

How well does the IRS handle the power.

 

[n2ishun]

I'd seriously consider another idler pulley (or 2) on that drive belt.....getting it's lots of slap in.
The way it is I would not expect belts to last very long at all.

 

[LRI]

How well does the IRS handle the power.

IRS setups are a bit of work, but we stumbled onto something last year.

According to the pages/forums I loiter on we made the top 5 list of all late model GTO's with a 1.230 60'. That' list is a mix of IRS and guys who have swapped to a solid axle.

We ran that # on a no prep track with a 10.5" radial.

Short of putting the car on a major, major diet, I think we hit the 60' ceiling already. Maybe if we ever get to a serious radial prepped track we can hit the teens. -maybe...

 

[LRI]

I'd seriously consider another idler pulley (or 2) on that drive belt.....getting it's lots of slap in.
The way it is I would not expect belts to last very long at all.

8mm cog belts flop around. Always have, always will. Where you get into trouble is when/if you put an idler on the "top" of the belt. If you bend em backwards they will fail.

 

[Average guy]

IRS setups are a bit of work, but we stumbled onto something last year.

According to the pages/forums I loiter on we made the top 5 list of all late model GTO's with a 1.230 60'. That' list is a mix of IRS and guys who have swapped to a solid axle.

We ran that # on a no prep track with a 10.5" radial.

Short of putting the car on a major, major diet, I think we hit the 60' ceiling already. Maybe if we ever get to a serious radial prepped track we can hit the teens. -maybe...

That’s straight gettin it with any setup let alone an IRS. I assume you are running at sturgis drag strip.

 

[LRI]

That’s straight gettin it with any setup let alone an IRS. I assume you are running at sturgis drag strip.

We stayed at Sturgis last year till late summer when we decided to go to a track by Sioux Falls. That's where we ran the quickest. Sturgis is a tough track. X2 when you have a new car that you are trying to learn.

This year we're hoping to get on the road more. Down in Nebraska, somewhere, there's a town that literally turns their Mainstreet into a track. They tried it last year and it was a big hit with folks so they are at it again. June 13th, I think, is the weekend they are running. Were working hard to make that one.

Eric and I (mostly Eric) pulled the whole top end off the car last night to retorque the heads. (solid copper gaskets have to be snugged up after a heat cycle due to annealing). All went well so we think we're finally ready to run again.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Bender]

454 LSX small block. Do it.

 

[Kadams1563]

Nice! And I’m over thinking my Heads, Cam, FBO, big stall and gears street truck is fast lol.

 

[LRI]

454 LSX small block. Do it.

There are issues with a blower/boost application on the 454 setups. The bore gets to be a wee bit thin. I have an LSX block in my yellow/street GTO. I built it as a 421 just to nod to the old days when Pontiac made the 421 SuperDuty. I went oversquare on that engine (4.1875" hole with a 3.825" stroke) and tossed a 3.0L Whipple blower onto it. The holes are good to around 20psi. Much north of that, you start playing with fire in terms of bore stability and the rings being able to do the work.

I have a Dart LS Next tall deck block and a billet center counterweight crank sitting on the floor at home. I'm slowly acquiring the parts to do another engine. Looking at a 408 cubic inch setup for that thing. This latest motor is a test mule (of sorts) to see if that is worth pursuing. (stupid compression and 50+psi boost being the criteria that were trying out for this year) Assuming it all works, we'll pour the coals into that one. -Aluminum long rod set up and a pair of cylinder heads with ports big enough to park a bus in. Dry sump it, yada, yada.

The engine in the car now is still using cathedral port heads. -something I find to be hysterically funny as most will agree it's not the desired pathway. I've got more time/money in the stupid things now than anyone would ever want to admit to, but they seemed to work pretty well last year before I killed them.
That engine was a 5.3L. I swapped Jesel rockers last year and had to pull the heads to clear the valve cover rails. I built that engine using Athena head gaskets. Finding replacements was impossible, and we were trying like hell to make a particular race. Out of desperation, I rolled the dice and threw some ghetto Fel Pros on it. We were pleasantly surprised to discover that it worked pretty darn well. Then greed took over. . .

We started leaning on it with more boost/timing, and at 22psi, it said "uncle" and sneezed the head gasket and "gas axed" the deck surface (see welded head photo). I had a pair of old Lingenfelter prepped 243 factory heads that I'd bought in 2007. We slapped them on and actually went faster.

Looking them over, I realized the chambers were much "softer" on the quench ring. The PRCs have massively thick deck surfaces, so there's plenty of meat to get creative. I made a model, and we increased the chamber volume by 7cc's and altered the angle on the quench pad to soften things up. The idea is that with big boost, the flame propagation needs to be slowed down a touch while avoiding dead spots for shit to loiter around in.

Make a fixture and get to work. . .

Down the rabbit hole we go. . . Next chore was to 86 the head's water passages for the copper head gasket/hoops upgrade. The last bright idea was to scuff the intake runners to try and take advantage of something I'd seen 25 years ago. While in the Marines, I moonlighted at a few different race engine shops in Southern California. My first job as a civilian was up in Pamona, working for Bill Craddock doing head work. A pair of Ken Sperling prepared SBC "alky heads" showed up one day for a valve job. (Ken is/was the founder of Airflow Research) The intake ports literally looked as though they'd been ported with a backhoe. They had huge cusps, facets, and divets along the entire length of the runner. They were hideous to look at compared to anything I'd ever seen before.

They also moved air like nobody's business. That car hauled ass. Years later, I was on a flight to Reno and random luck parked me next to a guy who designed wing surfaces for Lockheed. He noticed a book I was reading, and he's probably still regretting ever speaking to me. I worked him over good with questions about boundary layers, laminar air movement, etc. . . Apparently, Ken Sperling must have known this as well. . .

Remembering this, we attempted to emulate the same idea in these things. Long winters in S. Dakota, so we take advantage on the weekends.

 

[Bender]

There are issues with a blower/boost application on the 454 setups. The bore gets to be a wee bit thin. I have an LSX block in my yellow/street GTO. I built it as a 421 just to nod to the old days when Pontiac made the 421 SuperDuty. I went oversquare on that engine (4.1875" hole with a 3.825" stroke) and tossed a 3.0L Whipple blower onto it. The holes are good to around 20psi. Much north of that, you start playing with fire in terms of bore stability and the rings being able to do the work.

View attachment 7877193

I have a Dart LS Next tall deck block and a billet center counterweight crank sitting on the floor at home. I'm slowly acquiring the parts to do another engine. Looking at a 408 cubic inch setup for that thing. This latest motor is a test mule (of sorts) to see if that is worth pursuing. (stupid compression and 50+psi boost being the criteria that were trying out for this year) Assuming it all works, we'll pour the coals into that one. -Aluminum long rod set up and a pair of cylinder heads with ports big enough to park a bus in. Dry sump it, yada, yada.

The engine in the car now is still using cathedral port heads. -something I find to be hysterically funny as most will agree it's not the desired pathway. I've got more time/money in the stupid things now than anyone would ever want to admit to, but they seemed to work pretty well last year before I killed them.
That engine was a 5.3L. I swapped Jesel rockers last year and had to pull the heads to clear the valve cover rails. I built that engine using Athena head gaskets. Finding replacements was impossible, and we were trying like hell to make a particular race. Out of desperation, I rolled the dice and threw some ghetto Fel Pros on it. We were pleasantly surprised to discover that it worked pretty darn well. Then greed took over. . .

We started leaning on it with more boost/timing, and at 22psi, it said "uncle" and sneezed the head gasket and "gas axed" the deck surface (see welded head photo). I had a pair of old Lingenfelter prepped 243 factory heads that I'd bought in 2007. We slapped them on and actually went faster.

View attachment 7877194

Looking them over, I realized the chambers were much "softer" on the quench ring. The PRCs have massively thick deck surfaces, so there's plenty of meat to get creative. I made a model, and we increased the chamber volume by 7cc's and altered the angle on the quench pad to soften things up. The idea is that with big boost, the flame propagation needs to be slowed down a touch while avoiding dead spots for shit to loiter around in.

Make a fixture and get to work. . .

View attachment 7877197

Down the rabbit hole we go. . . Next chore was to 86 the head's water passages for the copper head gasket/hoops upgrade. The last bright idea was to scuff the intake runners to try and take advantage of something I'd seen 25 years ago. While in the Marines, I moonlighted at a few different race engine shops in Southern California. My first job as a civilian was up in Pamona, working for Bill Craddock doing head work. A pair of Ken Sperling prepared SBC "alky heads" showed up one day for a valve job. (Ken is/was the founder of Airflow Research) The intake ports literally looked as though they'd been ported with a backhoe. They had huge cusps, facets, and divets along the entire length of the runner. They were hideous to look at compared to anything I'd ever seen before.

They also moved air like nobody's business. That car hauled ass.

Remembering this, we attempted to emulate the same idea in these things. Long winters in S. Dakota, so we take advantage on the weekends.

I love how you just casually mentioned 20 psi as passé’ LMFAO!

I love your work, both your Rifles and these “mild” small blocks!

 

[Bender]

Further comments, I’ve heard of runners being too clean/smooth, in high flow, the laminar flow as it turns sharp angles the fuel that is heavier than the air will stick to the walls and not be homogeneous mixture, the rougher sides make the air tumble at the edge slightly disrupting laminar flow thus keeping mixture and air tumbling as it enters the chamber. This might mean more in carbureted applications for obvious reasons, but I would guess with port or even direct injection that it wouldn’t hurt anything either. I know Suzuki made swirl port heads just for this reason in the GSXR 1100-1200 block, which some may know as the “Chevy small block” in the motorcycle performance world. I also read where flame propagation in large bore big blocks were slow enough at times to have the flame kernel/front to cause detonation issues, a more tumbled mixture or higher octane was needed to mitigate this. I use to have an old 1970 Lincoln with a HO 460. It had 10.5:1 pistons from the factory, it HAD to have premium 91 octane or better, and not just average no name 91, it had to be Sinclair, Shell, Chevron or it sounded like it was full of marbles. It burned oil but would melt rear tires in the posi five link rear end with just slamming the four barrel open, no brakes needed, even with the tall 2.80 rear end. I’ve tire smoked out entire intersections with that big block, plenty of tickets. Ahh, to be 20 again.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

IRS = DeDion?

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Now, take this tangent for what you've paid for it, but we're essentially talking about 'shark-skin' effect with regards to fluid dynamics, right?

The concept being (something like) the texture of the surface of the sharks skin being bumpy and 'sticky' is what holds/traps micro-spheres of water that only move a 'little bit' so that the next layer of water flows essentially unrestricted therefore movement in the water is 'smooth and efficient'?

IIRC, there is SO much more to it, but that's the 'jist of it, no?

 

[LRI]

Further comments, I’ve heard of runners being too clean/smooth, in high flow, the laminar flow as it turns sharp angles the fuel that is heavier than the air will stick to the walls and not be homogeneous mixture, the rougher sides make the air tumble at the edge slightly disrupting laminar flow thus keeping mixture and air tumbling as it enters the chamber. This might mean more in carbureted applications for obvious reasons, but I would guess with port or even direct injection that it wouldn’t hurt anything either. I know Suzuki made swirl port heads just for this reason in the GSXR 1100-1200 block, which some may know as the “Chevy small block” in the motorcycle performance world. I also read where flame propitiation in large bore big blocks were slow enough at times to have the flame kernel/front to cause detonation issues, a more tumbled mixture or higher octane was needed to mitigate this. I use to have an old 1970 Lincoln with a HO 460. It had 10.5:1 pistons from the factory, it HAD to have premium 91 octane or better, and not just average no name 91, it had to be Sinclair, Shell, Chevron or it sounded like it was full of marbles. It burned oil but would melt rear tires in the posi five link rear end with just slamming the four barrel open, no brakes needed, even with the tall 2.80 rear end. I’ve tire smoked out entire intersections with that big block, plenty of tickets. Ahh, to be 20 again.

A little different subject, but sort of along the same lines:

A guy named Darren Morgan has forgotten more about this stuff than the entire planet will ever know. He's a big advocate for valve angles/jobs that use a razor-sharp transition from one face to another on both the valve and seats. On a flow bench it'll lie to you all day by suggesting that airflow potential is reduced. The dyno, however, tells a very different story.

The truth lies in that the sharp transitions serve as "launch pads" to reintroduce fuel that has fallen out of suspension and rivers along the runner/bowls. When it encounters one of these facets, it flings itself back into the air stream. You see it immediately because fueling curves adjust accordingly. (meaning the trims clean up a bit as your not so "fat" on the curves since the fuel is actually working instead of just pissing around the inside of the intake tract/combustion chamber)

Injected motors see somewhat less of this since we're squirting a big ol spit wad of alky more or less right at the intake valve. One thing we do play with is the injector timing. I advocate for getting the fuel shot at the valve reasonably because the combustion and exhaust stroke get the intake valve nice and hot. My thoughts are if the fuel sees the heat, it has a better chance of flashing to vapor, and that makes power. -Atomization is a term conjured up by car magazines and the internet.

Vapor is what makes a piston move with authority. Fortunately, Holley Dominator ECU software has a whole series of tables that tackle this so it is pretty easy to mess around with. You basically plug in your cam card data and go from there.

The one thing that sends all of this to shit is stuff like Formula One and Sprint car engines. They all seem to make the best power by introducing fuel as far up the intake tract as possible. Who knows? Fun to chat about regardless.

 

[Bender]

A little different subject, but sort of along the same lines:

A guy named Darren Morgan has forgotten more about this stuff than the entire planet will ever know. He's a big advocate for valve angles/jobs that use a razor-sharp transition from one face to another on both the valve and seats. On a flow bench it'll lie to you all day by suggesting that airflow potential is reduced. The dyno, however, tells a very different story.

The truth lies in that the sharp transitions serve as "launch pads" to reintroduce fuel that has fallen out of suspension and rivers along the runner/bowls. When it encounters one of these facets, it flings itself back into the air stream. You see it immediately because fueling curves adjust accordingly. (meaning the trims clean up a bit as your not so "fat" on the curves since the fuel is actually working instead of just pissing around the inside of the intake tract/combustion chamber)

Injected motors see somewhat less of this since we're squirting a big ol spit wad of alky more or less right at the intake valve. One thing we do play with is the injector timing. I advocate for getting the fuel shot at the valve reasonably because the combustion and exhaust stroke get the intake valve nice and hot. My thoughts are if the fuel sees the heat, it has a better chance of flashing to vapor, and that makes power. -Atomization is a term conjured up by car magazines and the internet.

Vapor is what makes a piston move with authority. Fortunately, Holley Dominator ECU software has a whole series of tables that tackle this so it is pretty easy to mess around with. You basically plug in your cam card data and go from there.

The one thing that sends all of this to shit is stuff like Formula One and Sprint car engines. They all seem to make the best power by introducing fuel as far up the intake tract as possible. Who knows? Fun to chat about regardless.

That makes perfect sense with the sharp edges, there’s actually a scientific term, it’s where a fluid follows/attaches to a curve instead of separating from what it’s flowing on. It’s called the Coanda Effect. It’s literally how air sticks to airplane wings to make them fly, you get too sharp of an approach angle and the air detaches from the wing and you get stall conditions. With a liquid you see it when you try to pour something out of a poorly designed pitcher or a coffee cup and it dribbles down the face making a mess. The sharp edge is what forces the detachment. In a pitcher you want a very sharp edge to pour nicely.

Direct injection is cool, as in amazing, but it also cools the incoming air with the liquid to vapor flash you mentioned. It’s a great idea because now you can increase compression ratio without fear of detonation, but it has a downside, now the back of the valve isn’t getting cooled and rinsed of preventing coking. Ford in 2018 made the 5.0 both port and direct injection to overcome this. The cool part is now Mustang kids have two sets of injection to play with, they love boost.

I do love the LS platform though, so much more compact and simple with one camshaft where it belongs as opposed to four of them on top making a 5.0 physically the size of a big block. I did see Ford tucked tail on the new 7.3 “Godzilla” gas motor and put the cam back where it should have been. The GM 8.1 made the same Tq as the new Ford motor 22 years ago LOL. I don’t watch porn, I watch engine videos and read old school magazines with guys that got their hands dirty. I just live vicariously though, I don’t have big boy money or a place to build stuff. Good times though.

 

[Bender]

Now, take this tangent for what you've paid for it, but we're essentially talking about 'shark-skin' effect with regards to fluid dynamics, right?

The concept being (something like) the texture of the surface of the sharks skin being bumpy and 'sticky' is what holds/traps micro-spheres of water that only move a 'little bit' so that the next layer of water flows essentially unrestricted therefore movement in the water is 'smooth and efficient'?

IIRC, there is SO much more to it, but that's the 'jist of it, no?

Kinda maybe, I need to read up on it. I do know that boats have been using vents near the water line to suck in a layer of air attached to the hull, they call it stepped hull, the thin layer of bubbles reduce friction and increase efficiency. Sometimes that can be a bad thing, some early designs were stable in a straight line, but in a turn, that friction that the rear of the boat relies on is now gone, allowing the boat to literally spin out mid turn, on a 100mph+ race boat? Deadly. But engineers and experimentation had made them much more safe in the past 20 years.

 

[LRI]

Update for 2023:

Last year was over before it really even started. The weather was garbage for May, so we lost the entire month. June rolls around, and we finally get to run. On the first night out, we got 3 passes on the new motor. The 3rd pass killed the crank. Both keyways sheared on the snout, and the damn thing cannibalized itself. Slapped in a spare after a rebalance, and off we go for August.

We made three passes that night and broke it again. The autopsy showed that we split the block on the #4 main. It cracked right at the seam from the cap to the cam tunnel, then started its way up the other side, stopping just before where the cap installs. Further diagnosis revealed the cause. The weather had changed. Density Altitude dropped a bunch, and the attempt was made to capitalize. All it took was a 3% change to fatten the fuel a bit to take advantage of the weather change. Fluids don't compress so well, and the bent rod, broken block, and bent wrist pin revealed that we'd locked up #7.

But, before that, we hauled serious ass. It was the quickest pass we'd ever made. I don't have the slip in front of me, but it dipped into the 5.40's and went over 130mph. (8th mile) Earlier that spring we put the car on scales and got out the tape measures and camber gauges to work on the rear-end setup. It paid off in spades as our 60' times on an IRS rear end were better than many of the fat tire, solid axle cars there that night.

So, I had the remainder of the summer to lick my scabs and start over. New engine time...

LS7 based 427:

• Dart tall deck LS Next block with extended skirted lower cylinders
• Billet Callies Magnum crank
• CID LS7 heads
• Jesel belt drive conversion
• Dry sump oiling
• Jesel valve train
• Titanium intake valves
• Inconel exhaust valves
• Oliver rods
• Diamond billet pistons
• MSD Pro 600 ignition
• Whipple 8.3L supercharger
• A bunch of home made shit

First up: Altering the block for the Jesel Belt drive conversion. This is a bell you cannot unring as the machine work removes any/all hopes of ever running a factory oil pump.

Next, pan rails. The Dart blocks do not have the extended skirts that hang below the crankshaft centerline. However, the front/rear covers are still OEM style, and they do, so it's a little more work to get an oil pan to fit. What complicates the problem is the car. A 2005 GTO has a challenging steering rack setup that gets in the way of stuff.

Dart sells rails that hang 2" below the pan rail of the block. These align flush with the front/rear engine covers. My original plan was to buy a single block of aluminum and machine the rails/pan from a single piece. The cost of that compelled me to find a more affordable alternative. A 22" x 11" x 5" piece of 6061 would have cost me almost $1,700 for the material. Solving it with three parts saved me almost 75%.

With that complete, oil pan development comes next... Designing the pan proved interesting. Ted from ARC once told me once that it takes two weeks to develop a good idea. Well, I'm a dipshit, so it takes me around four months. Because of cost, I modeled the initial piece in plastic. A friend has a stockpile of high-density plastic used for partitions in public restrooms. While it machines really nice, I'm not in any hurry to ever use it again inside of any of my machines because it's about like taking a 10lb block of shredded mozzarella cheese and dumping it inside. It sucks ass to clean up.

My initial idea was to tuck the pan as close to the rotating assembly as possible. The idea was to minimize the crankcase volume, and I figured that two scavenge ports at 30+ inches of vacuum will handle the rest. Some further discussion gave me the incentive to rethink this. I believe the "rev2" version is better.

Now we wait. I have to bore/hone the lifter bores next. Still debating on the tool package for that.

Fun stuff.

 

[LeftyJason]

That plastic can't be as bad as some stuff we ran at a previous job. Don't remember what it was. Either way machine wasn't set up for dusty materials.

Edit: typo

 

[MarinePMI]

That plastic can't be as bad as some stuff we ran at a previous job. Don't remember what it was. Either way machine wasn't set up for dusty materials. View attachment 8069295
View attachment 8069296
Edit: typo

Geez man, you done got white cheeto dust all over everything!

 

[LeftyJason]

Geez man, you done got white cheeto dust all over everything!

Place before that was graphite molds for PDC oil bits. They were at least set up for the dust. Now days I grind inconel for turbine jet engines under oil. Everything can get messy in some way.

 

[JoshPutman]

Man, you need to check this shit out! It'll put you over the top on performance. No one will be able to touch you at the track.