That’s the first time I can ever recall a manufacturer listing the material type and heat treat specs of what appears to be every part of their action.
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Hoplite Arms
- Thread starter THEIS
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That’s the first time I can ever recall a manufacturer listing the material type and heat treat specs of what appears to be every part of their action.
Sure seems like @THEIS is the manufacturer for Discerning Long Range Shooters. When you need it right the first time for forever, go with Hoplite.
Hi,
Well, I am not certain what other action and/or rifles manufacturers list and do not list but as I have said from the beginning of this thread I intend to break from what we as the industry see as the norm; whether that be in design, features, lead times, customer experience, transparency, direct to customer conversations, etc etc.
I can only make list of what Hoplite Arms utilizes and have no issues with putting those details public because I know that from the alloy chosen for each component, the heat treatment types/specs for each component, the details of each component, to the quality control of each component/sub-assembly/assembly...each and every thought process that goes into our product line is solid and with very good reason; although some reasons will not "line out" with industry norms.
I know some manufacturers list their receiver and bolt alloys along with their respective HRC numbers, but the devil is in the details....I am willing to lay out all the alloys and HRC specs along with what methods of heat treatment, etc etc. Because I have no desires to make anything that does not last a lifetime and our warranty backs that up....You break..we repair or replace!!!
Throughout various post in this thread I have even made part tolerances known on various components...That is because I know those tolerances stand for excellence and I will not stand for anything less.
We have purposely designed our receivers on the Kopis and Aspis to utilize most of the same parts...That is because tolerance stacking matters, the less we can stack, the better our products are. So each of them are designed, machined and treated with such tolerances to allow the interchangeability of various parts if need be. And it allows for more efficient production levels.
Sincerely,
Theis
Well, I am not certain what other action and/or rifles manufacturers list and do not list but as I have said from the beginning of this thread I intend to break from what we as the industry see as the norm; whether that be in design, features, lead times, customer experience, transparency, direct to customer conversations, etc etc.
I can only make list of what Hoplite Arms utilizes and have no issues with putting those details public because I know that from the alloy chosen for each component, the heat treatment types/specs for each component, the details of each component, to the quality control of each component/sub-assembly/assembly...each and every thought process that goes into our product line is solid and with very good reason; although some reasons will not "line out" with industry norms.
I know some manufacturers list their receiver and bolt alloys along with their respective HRC numbers, but the devil is in the details....I am willing to lay out all the alloys and HRC specs along with what methods of heat treatment, etc etc. Because I have no desires to make anything that does not last a lifetime and our warranty backs that up....You break..we repair or replace!!!
Throughout various post in this thread I have even made part tolerances known on various components...That is because I know those tolerances stand for excellence and I will not stand for anything less.
We have purposely designed our receivers on the Kopis and Aspis to utilize most of the same parts...That is because tolerance stacking matters, the less we can stack, the better our products are. So each of them are designed, machined and treated with such tolerances to allow the interchangeability of various parts if need be. And it allows for more efficient production levels.
Sincerely,
Theis
The more and more I see of your demi-god slaying uber-rifle the more I am impressed with your attention to detail and fore-thougt. My big concern is the more I see of it the higher the MSRP in my mind grows.
Correct, the enthusiasm will wane once prices come out. If you want quality, you have to pay for it. Could a company like AI survive if weren't for government contracts? I don't know. For most people, an RPR is probably the best value out there. And Ruger is still sucking wind financially. It's a tough business, especially in the US where people just want $200 AR's.
im done with trying to make a RPR or a 200$ dollar AR do things its not made to do.
i dont expect these to cost $10,000 but i sure as hell know the wont be $3500 either
for $3000 you get a decent action with decent components...AKA Ford Taurus
how many times have we/shooters been sold a list of goods to only find out:
well the trigger is upgradable
you can get a prefit barrel
you can replace the stock
buy a RRS rail and attach it
etc etc
add all that crap up and its not cheap anymore
and after all that you still MAY NOT have a nice weapon
and your still polishing a turd
how many RPR vs AI's threads were out
or how many DTA vs AI's threads were out
all people trying to match quality and specs of the industry leader (like them or not)
at the end of the day....they still all suck compare to the AI, TRG, Tac-Ops, high end Surgeon
but now you have a sunken cost of extra crap that you cant get you money back...maybe pennies on the dollar
look at a few of the threads on here in the trending section
each thread is about a action not performing to what the customer expected...
oh but wait there is a fix or send it back or its ok it only happens sometimes
never mind the increased performance that @THEIS is targeting
which is worth its weight in gold, which no other action builder or company is producing (at least to my knowledge)
i dont expect these to cost $10,000 but i sure as hell know the wont be $3500 either
for $3000 you get a decent action with decent components...AKA Ford Taurus
how many times have we/shooters been sold a list of goods to only find out:
well the trigger is upgradable
you can get a prefit barrel
you can replace the stock
buy a RRS rail and attach it
etc etc
add all that crap up and its not cheap anymore
and after all that you still MAY NOT have a nice weapon
and your still polishing a turd
how many RPR vs AI's threads were out
or how many DTA vs AI's threads were out
all people trying to match quality and specs of the industry leader (like them or not)
at the end of the day....they still all suck compare to the AI, TRG, Tac-Ops, high end Surgeon
but now you have a sunken cost of extra crap that you cant get you money back...maybe pennies on the dollar
look at a few of the threads on here in the trending section
each thread is about a action not performing to what the customer expected...
oh but wait there is a fix or send it back or its ok it only happens sometimes
never mind the increased performance that @THEIS is targeting
which is worth its weight in gold, which no other action builder or company is producing (at least to my knowledge)
I concur with what you said. Especially about the increased performance that Theis is targeting.
I hope there is a market big enough for it. Companies like AI and Steyr do make rifles that hoplite is going to make and without the government contracts it doesn't seem like it's profitable. Looking forward to see what happens.
its actually the flip side
i remember reading a article with barrett
he said that his company cant survive on Mil alone
the civilian side pays the bills especially for new product R&D
why do you think AI started selling chassis and making their rifles available through a bunch of distributes
where it used to be Tac-Pro and thats it
there are alot more civilians that want AI's then all the snipers in all the worlds armies
Between 2013 and mid-2018, the Corps only produced 226 snipers.
Typically, there are an estimated 300 snipers in the Corps, Caylen Wojcik, a former Marine sniper, told Marine Corps Times in 2018.
Last year only 150 sergeants and below held the 0317 scout sniper MOS.
Mil market is very small, for this specialized stuff
i remember reading a article with barrett
he said that his company cant survive on Mil alone
the civilian side pays the bills especially for new product R&D
why do you think AI started selling chassis and making their rifles available through a bunch of distributes
where it used to be Tac-Pro and thats it
there are alot more civilians that want AI's then all the snipers in all the worlds armies
Between 2013 and mid-2018, the Corps only produced 226 snipers.
Typically, there are an estimated 300 snipers in the Corps, Caylen Wojcik, a former Marine sniper, told Marine Corps Times in 2018.
Last year only 150 sergeants and below held the 0317 scout sniper MOS.
Mil market is very small, for this specialized stuff
Hi,
Real quick, because I am actually preparing for meeting with BWA, lol.....
I have no problem going up against the market share of any company. I know exactly what my design does. I know exactly what my production cost are. I have absolutely no issue with getting raw goods. I have the systems in place because I have purposely chosen to not spend company time on preorders and such but rather eat the cost of getting everything final and in place BEFORE taking the very first order.
The biggest thing is... I KNOW EXACTLY where/what my market is,
I have been in the International Defense Industry since my days at the Original Cheytac back in 1998-2002.
I consult to DDTC on the International Defense Industry Cooperation Council and the Defense Advisory Trade Group....so I keep up with what manufacturers are being sourced from here, there, everywhere. AND who is buying what, who is looking for what, etc etc.
Any firearm company thinking they are going to survive on Mil contracts alone is like saying a firearm company can survive on PRS shooters alone...just doesn't happen.
In regards to cost..... @brianf is pretty much right on in regards to all the hoopla over cheap products, only to find out there are "issues", etc etc.
I have mentioned in the thread previously..I make no intentions to compete with the bargain market or the action market..... Luckily I knew that from the very beginning and not being blindsided by that realization.
Cost will be inline with AI, Surgeon, Etc Etc.....
Sincerely,
Theis
Real quick, because I am actually preparing for meeting with BWA, lol.....
I have no problem going up against the market share of any company. I know exactly what my design does. I know exactly what my production cost are. I have absolutely no issue with getting raw goods. I have the systems in place because I have purposely chosen to not spend company time on preorders and such but rather eat the cost of getting everything final and in place BEFORE taking the very first order.
The biggest thing is... I KNOW EXACTLY where/what my market is,
I have been in the International Defense Industry since my days at the Original Cheytac back in 1998-2002.I consult to DDTC on the International Defense Industry Cooperation Council and the Defense Advisory Trade Group....so I keep up with what manufacturers are being sourced from here, there, everywhere. AND who is buying what, who is looking for what, etc etc.
Any firearm company thinking they are going to survive on Mil contracts alone is like saying a firearm company can survive on PRS shooters alone...just doesn't happen.
In regards to cost..... @brianf is pretty much right on in regards to all the hoopla over cheap products, only to find out there are "issues", etc etc.
I have mentioned in the thread previously..I make no intentions to compete with the bargain market or the action market..... Luckily I knew that from the very beginning and not being blindsided by that realization.
Cost will be inline with AI, Surgeon, Etc Etc.....
Sincerely,
Theis
Not sure, I was actually looking for the queens snipers because they use AI and I remember being amazed that they only had like 200 or less.
And that was the whole mil not just one service.
I could be wrong but it was small
Hi,
Scheduling Malta trip for right around first of October for visit to the ammunition facility ?
I really should have learned how to fly some shit.....lol, commercial flying sucks.
Sincerely,
Theis
I’m not questioning Caylen as he is probably more right than I am since he actually was a scout sniper. However, it’s one of those numbers that can easily get lost seeing as it’s a secondary MOS and many people who claim to be “snipers” are actually just DM’s and have never attended the actual sniper course at the school house. FWIW, I believe they are considering making it a primary MOS at some point but I have zero actual fact on that. But prior to 06 at least, the MOS was still 8541 not sure when the transition started or finished so the numbers can be off
Hi,
The joys of all the programming complete ?
Now time to get busy!!!
Sincerely,
Theis
The joys of all the programming complete ?
Now time to get busy!!!
Sincerely,
Theis
If someone were to say want to have a spare complete bolt with firing pin assembly, boltface etc., will those be available for purchase?
Hi,
Good News: Absolutely
Bad News: Spare complete bolt assemblies will be after the first batch of full rifles are built.
We have several different machine manufacturers we use but the exact one in the image is a Haas UMC-750 5 Axis.
Sincerely,
Theis
Thought it looked like a Haas. Trunion shape and color. Seen them on the NYCCNC YouTube channel (he is a great machining resource). I used to run a couple Ec1600's.
Hi,
EC 1600s are fantastic!!! Could machine an entire chassis as a single piece using it
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
Trigger guards in the works for the KMW Sentinel crowd, lol.
Sincerely,
Theis
Trigger guards in the works for the KMW Sentinel crowd, lol.
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
LOLOL that is why says "In the Works", lolol........Inspection, Inspection, Inspection.......it is what separates products and companies
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
LOLOL that is why says "In the Works", lolol........Inspection, Inspection, Inspection.......it is what separates products and companies
Sincerely,
Theis
you should actually add "inspection to proper spec, inspection to proper spec..."
if thats what you mean
i bet a lot of people inspect parts but do they have tight enough specs
and how many do they inspect out of a batch
devils in the details as usual
to bad about the pic though..im a chassis guy lol
Hi,
So clearly I need to learn some video editing because I seem to be having technical difficulties, lolol...
Sincerely,
Theis
So clearly I need to learn some video editing because I seem to be having technical difficulties, lolol...
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
No worries...chassis images and videos will be forthcoming over the next few weeks
Funny you mention "Devils in the details".....to illustrate that in regards to the rear trigger guard pieces in middle stages of completion.
1. We are press forming the screw threads in that piece instead of cutting the threads. This is not a process done very much in the firearms industry but it is done very often in the aerospace industry since it creates stronger threads that are harder to strip when paired with the correct screw alloy.
2. Inspection is not only "tight enough specs" but just the overall assurance that things should not have to be reworked. Inspection processes for Hoplite Arms really come down to this--Take the time to ensure it is right the first time because you get no second chances at a first impression.
No employee will stay on the floor or office that does not wake up and go to sleep with that mindset.
3. The old saying of study 2 hours for every 1 hour of class kind of goes with small batch manufacturing hell bent on best quality in the industry.....
2 hours of inspection and quality control for every 1 hour machining
Sincerely,
Theis
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isn't that why we buy AIs?from a birds eye view i dont think you have a great business model
this thing seems like its going to last forever...
i guess you not banking on the spare parts market paying the bills
He might just put the hurt on a lot of other custom rifle makers who have been getting away for too long with not caring about customer service.
Imagine actually getting what you order in a fast manner, and when they tell you you will get it. As well as having real customer service & someone actually able to give you the details. Add to that making everything perfect when it goes out the door. Plus the rifles are rated for higher pressures than everybody else's.
There is a lot of companies that fall down on most of that and may find their customers all heading over to see @THEIS
Imagine actually getting what you order in a fast manner, and when they tell you you will get it. As well as having real customer service & someone actually able to give you the details. Add to that making everything perfect when it goes out the door. Plus the rifles are rated for higher pressures than everybody else's.
There is a lot of companies that fall down on most of that and may find their customers all heading over to see @THEIS
im the first one to say it
im prob known as the "buy a AI guy" on the hide
first thing i say on every expensive custom thread
but this seems to be a different animal which is why ive made room in my safe
hell ill take on time/ accurate expected receipt date never mind fast
i really think CS will be important on this type of rifle
its not a run of the mill r700 drop in
with the presumed/apparent higher quality and innovation (from the build sheet and specs posted) my gut says @THEIS will get laryngitis trying to explain how and why
He's spending time up front explaining the how and why. Of course he's having a lot of faith in everyone's reading comprehension skills.
i know its not your first day on the hide
but maybe you havnt been reading some of the threads and replies lately
i dont think comprehension is a strong point around here ?
Hi,
Well hopefully comprehension is more advanced than we may think, lol....especially when I get long winded on explanations of this vs that or the why vs why not of certain things but luckily my fingers cannot get laryngitis lol AND I truly believe the customer base Hoplite Arms is going after is further advanced and technical than we could ever give them credit for.
A company can have the best product in the world but if the potential customer does not ENJOY the customer experience they will never make it to the customer destination aka PURCHASE, then the company will fall eventually.
Having seen it over and over with International Business Development ventures.....Guys come in with fantastic proof of concepts, great business plans but have absolutely no clue as to what a Customer Journey plan is. This will be one of the biggest differences/separators of our company/products compared to some others.
Edited To Add: And back to topic, lol
Sincerely,
Theis
Well hopefully comprehension is more advanced than we may think, lol....especially when I get long winded on explanations of this vs that or the why vs why not of certain things but luckily my fingers cannot get laryngitis lol AND I truly believe the customer base Hoplite Arms is going after is further advanced and technical than we could ever give them credit for.
A company can have the best product in the world but if the potential customer does not ENJOY the customer experience they will never make it to the customer destination aka PURCHASE, then the company will fall eventually.
Having seen it over and over with International Business Development ventures.....Guys come in with fantastic proof of concepts, great business plans but have absolutely no clue as to what a Customer Journey plan is. This will be one of the biggest differences/separators of our company/products compared to some others.
Edited To Add: And back to topic, lol
Sincerely,
Theis
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Hi,
Progression continues and everything is still on schedule for mid to end of November...
In the spirit of continuing the behind the scenes views....today is all about tool path for the chassis systems.
Sincerely,
Theis
Progression continues and everything is still on schedule for mid to end of November...
In the spirit of continuing the behind the scenes views....today is all about tool path for the chassis systems.
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
QC QC QC...did we say QC....
Time for breech cylinders (After Operation 1) to take a trip to the laser measurement room.
Sincerely,
Theis
QC QC QC...did we say QC....
Time for breech cylinders (After Operation 1) to take a trip to the laser measurement room.
Sincerely,
Theis
vote for biggest tease thread of 2019. this guy right here.
Hi,
LOLOL, Ironically I have not made mention of half the stuff that we have in the pipeline.
Only have mentioned what has gone into full production after all T&E has been completed or that I know for sure is going into full production with time permitting.
Several other things either have not made it to T&E yet or has not finished T&E or some things we are still putting pencil to paper to justify whether it is worth it or not, LOLOL.
Sincerely,
Theis
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Hi,
Devil is in the details,
We are cutting our chassis magazine well to have a .063 radius to allow for smooth operations of magazine insertion/extraction without too much binding or too much slop.
They joys of 5 axis machines really shine with cutting chassis ?
Sincerely,
Theis
Devil is in the details,
We are cutting our chassis magazine well to have a .063 radius to allow for smooth operations of magazine insertion/extraction without too much binding or too much slop.
They joys of 5 axis machines really shine with cutting chassis ?
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
So, no new product pictures or data in this post, lol.
So, no new technical package information in this post either,
But since @b6graham pretty much called me a stripper the other day, lololol...
Figured now is great time to announce 2 new Dancers within the Hoplite Arms organization, so without further delay...
Sincerely,
Theis
So, no new product pictures or data in this post, lol.
So, no new technical package information in this post either,
But since @b6graham pretty much called me a stripper the other day, lololol...
Figured now is great time to announce 2 new Dancers within the Hoplite Arms organization, so without further delay...
I introduce you to
AND
Sincerely,
Theis
there are now strippers and rifles all on the same thread...
Long live Hoplite thread, the new and improved Motivational Pic Thread
do we get a test and evaluate if we buy a rifle, or is that for pre orders only...
Long live Hoplite thread, the new and improved Motivational Pic Thread
do we get a test and evaluate if we buy a rifle, or is that for pre orders only...
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