Horizontal Stringing

[goober]

Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let just clear one thing up, I am really not pissed at all, I find it a bit sad, and even more comical because I know in his circle he considers himself a bit of an expert.

If you look back to my original reply,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Movement during Dry Fire is generally considered a function of NPA... in fact Dry Fire is the fine tune adjustment for NPA after the Gross Adjustment.

Now, you may see this movement but, and it is possible it is related somewhat to the movement of the pin, but I am betting your NPA is just as much of the issue. If you have never used this movement to diagnose issues in NPA, or even Trigger Control, then you may feel it is from something else. But that movement seen in Dry Fire can usually be removed by a slight adjustment in your position. That is something we have seen.

The Human body has a pre-Flinch reaction to recoil, the act of Dry Firing is enough to induce the reaction. (Especially with guys shooting magnum calibers who flinch more than others) The body relaxes for a micro second during recoil as a safety mechanism to protect itself. By changing the firing pin to a lighter one you maybe changing the characteristic enough to stop the body from this pre-flinch reaction, the strike is no longer heavy enough is my guess.

But I have seen movement, but I have also seen a way to fix it, it's by adjusting your NPA to a better position, as Dry Fire is a test of NPA</div></div>

it was every bit as genuine as anyone else's, but read how he said,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also as soon as I seen that you had posted I knew where this was going.</div></div>

He also stated he wanted <span style="font-style: italic">unbiased</span> responses, you have to understand what he meant here, he basically wanted less than knowledgeable people to come on and agree with him. You see, the original post didn't get my attention at all, and even though I had read it, I moved on. His claims are what got my attention. Now, normally I would have let it go, but knowing how he a resident ELR expert, self proclaimed of course, his response here was very telling to me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All I know is that when I replaced the firing pins in two different rifles the movement went away. I seriously doubt the NPA was changed for three different shooters by a different firing pin. Both of these rifles are rock steady now from bags or bipods. There is zero movement during dry fire from either of these rifles verified by multiple shooters.</div></div>

See, this was his response to my quoted response above. This told me he had no idea what myself or Sterling was saying. He had no real understanding of the fundamentals which isn't uncommon for people who have been shooting a long time but never bothered to get educated on the subject. Because they have shot a long time, they can generally overcome this by learning to hit things without really knowing why, it just happens. Sure it forms opinions and hypothesis on the subject, like his answer in regards to "physics". Now I took physics in high school and admit I wasn't a stand out student in the class, but I am pretty sure he is missing the mass part of the equation.

Anyway, I knew at this point he was being disingenuous (<span style="font-style: italic"> August, that means less than sincere</span>) and I am sure he means it when he said he didn't like me or the fact I focus on the fundamentals more than anything else. I do. Why is this, because it <span style="font-style: italic">(read: me)</span> threatens his mystique among his minions. I am well aware the Line of the <span style="font-style: italic">"I hate lowlight fan club"</span> runs deep through the center of Oklahoma, and it doesn't surprise me he is a member. You can't fool people into thinking you're something your not if people like me come along and contradict and expose you. So giving me a wide berth is usually pretty smart for these guys.

But seriously, no hate, no anger, I feel it is a public service to show people that there is no voodoo to this, and changes like described will not fix the original problem. Let's face, doesn't take a physicist to see the original poster is lacking some basic knowledge regarding the fundamentals, even he understands that, including that the use of a 300WM is not the best learning tool. But that is his rifle, and he wants to use it. Hey I get it, which is why I never weighed in on his post. Claiming a firing pin fix for this gentlemen is worth weighing in on though, no new shooter should be given that advice.

I am sure I earned a place on the front porches all over Oklahoma for this thread, and not in a positive way. Heck his local penny saver will probably run a headline: <span style="font-style: italic">"Evil Leprechaun attack Local Hero"</span>. I accept that, won't be the first time, won't be the last time, and trust me, the line is very long and distinguished of those who hate me, so Augustus won't be alone. Plenty of company in this club... </div></div>not kissing ass here but Frank other than you being a Evil Leprechaun your an excellent moderator and very reasonable to boot considering the abuse some toss you .its a shame to see things go where this has gone with Augustus and i for one enjoy immensely reading about his ELR stuff

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

I would like to make an observation of this thread: Frank knows his stuff, and has proven this time and time again. However, Augustus has stumbled upon something he believes is true, yet is unwilling to accept an experienced man's testing of his theories. And instead of replying in kind to LL's posts, he gets upset and defensive in an unbecoming manner.

Augustus, How do you expect to get people on your side if you represent yourself this way? LL is going out of his way to prove your theory either right or wrong, shouldn't you be happy about that? You're not providing any proof to your theory and I assume it's because you cannot support your claims. Hell if you're right you have successfully made an increadible observation that needs to be exploited, but I fear this is not the case with two VERY well respected professional gunsmiths supporting the opposite of your claims with years of proof that you're wrong. This is why I feel you have gotten so defensive and downright rude, because you know you're wrong and have no support. But, that's just my opinion, as an outsider looking in.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Horizontal Stringing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> wnroscoe, if you bag your rifle in and trip the trigger w/o holding the rifle do you see movement in the position of the reticle on the target when dry fired.</div></div>

Depends on the rifle. My 6BR / 6 Dasher, no. I suspect other high end custom receivers would be the same way. My 260 on a Remington 700 with PTG bolt, no the OEM other Remington’s, yes.

The problem is the firing pin tip and or the cocking piece. If either hits the bolt body when fired it will cause a slight vibration that can translate to a slight reticle jump or movement. For me, the movement is always straight up but ever so slightly.

Dry fire your rifle and watch the bolt handle. My signature receiver handles don’t move, the OEM 700's do move.

This is entirely different then what LL is talking about. He's simply stating that most of the discussed movement is shooter induced and not fire control induced. Big difference.

 

[RFtinkerer]

Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hamr56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try adding some pressure to the forend especially if shooting from a bipod. You can do this by putting your non-shooting hand onto the forend preferably by the checkering. Pull the rifle tight into your shoulder to help mitigate the recoil. I have done this on a couple of magnum rifles and it has really tightened up the groups. </div></div>

I've heard to relax your muscles, I would think pulling the rifle butt into your shoulder would add tension and shaking muscles. Is that not correct? I may try it anyway...

 

[RFtinkerer]

Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">*snip* Let's face, doesn't take a physicist to see the original poster is lacking some basic knowledge regarding the fundamentals, even he understands that, including that the use of a 300WM is not the best learning tool. But that is his rifle, and he wants to use it. Hey I get it, which is why I never weighed in on his post. *snip*</div></div>

I certainly understand I lack knowledge, and perhaps it was unwise to immediately step in from a 22 LR to 300 WM, but my goal was to have a rifle fits my desires from limited marksmanship to hunting deer/elk or whatever fits my fancy. I would like to be decent enough with *this* rifle, and won't give up on that idea after ONE poor showing. Give me 10 tries with bad results and maybe I'll rethink my position. I'm not going for the uber sniper award. Strive for mediocrity, that's my motto.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

You are at a crossroads. What's important to good shooting has been brought to your attention. It appears you were not familiar with these ideas and have yet to decide whether or not you care to embrace them. As I mentioned before, to become a really good shot, requires not only the knowledge for what's important, but the discipline to undertake a meaningful practice schedule which will assure progress. Without a highly qualified mentor to guide you I doubt you will reach your destination, if the destination is to become a better than average marksman. This stuff just does not happen through osmosis; and, the average marksman is no marksman at all. The question is always how important it is to you. Some folks are happy just to be able to hit targets close enough and big enough that they can be hit intuitively, without need for any understanding for where the barrel is actually pointed. I hope you're not one of those "marksmen" as if you are this thread has been a waste of words.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RFtinkerer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hamr56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try adding some pressure to the forend especially if shooting from a bipod. You can do this by putting your non-shooting hand onto the forend preferably by the checkering. Pull the rifle tight into your shoulder to help mitigate the recoil. I have done this on a couple of magnum rifles and it has really tightened up the groups. </div></div>

I've heard to relax your muscles, I would think pulling the rifle butt into your shoulder would add tension and shaking muscles. Is that not correct? I may try it anyway...</div></div>

Only enough pressure to maintain control of the rifle is what you want.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are at a crossroads. What's important to good shooting has been brought to your attention. It appears you were not familiar with these ideas and have yet to decide whether or not you care to embrace them. As I mentioned before, to become a really good shot, requires not only the knowledge for what's important, but the discipline to undertake a meaningful practice schedule which will assure progress. Without a highly qualified mentor to guide you I doubt you will reach your destination, if the destination is to become a better than average marksman. This stuff just does not happen through osmosis; and, the average marksman is no marksman at all. The question is always how important it is to you. Some folks are happy just to be able to hit targets close enough and big enough that they can be hit intuitively, without need for any understanding for where the barrel is actually pointed. I hope you're not one of those "marksmen" as if you are this thread has been a waste of words.</div></div>


Sage advice here,

This makes this thread worth reading, especially for those hoping to glean some insight on what it takes to move beyond "average" .

 

[Scott E White]

Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are at a crossroads. What's important to good shooting has been brought to your attention. It appears you were not familiar with these ideas and have yet to decide whether or not you care to embrace them. As I mentioned before, to become a really good shot, requires not only the knowledge for what's important, but the discipline to undertake a meaningful practice schedule which will assure progress. Without a highly qualified mentor to guide you I doubt you will reach your destination, if the destination is to become a better than average marksman. This stuff just does not happen through osmosis; and, the average marksman is no marksman at all. The question is always how important it is to you. Some folks are happy just to be able to hit targets close enough and big enough that they can be hit intuitively, without need for any understanding for where the barrel is actually pointed. I hope you're not one of those "marksmen" as if you are this thread has been a waste of words. </div></div>

I don't post much. Visit the boards here almost daily, read a lot. Listen to all the advice, absorb what I can, try following some, discount lots of the other. Read through and chuckle at many of the pissing matches which develop, and move on.
It's advice like these words, above, that keep me coming back.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

I don't have any sage advice, but I'll suggest this...

Start with the online training here. Then a lot more practice with your 22LR. Then go back to center fire.

On the path your on now, I'd bet you burn out the barrel on the 300WM before you get it truely figured out. Personally, I'd get a .308 or .223 for some practice and a transition to the 300wm.

I started with the online training when it first opened. Since then, I'm a few bricks of ammo thru my 22 and over 3k rounds thru my .308. And countless hours of dryfire at home. And I still learn more every time I'm at the range. Sterling is right - without a local mentor progress will be slow. It's not impossible, but it is slow.

Good luck what ever you decide. Let us know how you make out.

 

[gknittel]

Re: Horizontal Stringing

I've the same issue with the reticle moving when dry firing my 2 Remington M700 rifles.
Also, the bolt handles of both rifles moves alot when the pin is released.

Once I became aware of this "issue" one of the troubleshooting technique I tryed was leaving the rifle resting on the sandbags, without tripod or magazine... just the rifle, scope and bolt. I applied slight pressure on the trigger while looking through the scope without touching the rifle... and the reticle moved.

I'm not even close to be experienced shooter but I feel in the middle of Lowlights arguments and wnroscoes and Augustus'.

After seing the bolt handle moving this much on my rifles, it is hard to believe the reticle won't move.
Also, the sand inside the sandbags getting tighter and filling the possible voids left between the sand kernels.

It's very interesting to me.
I will try to post a video so you can see what I'm talking about. It's hard to me to explain such a specific behavior in a foreign language.

Thanks to all

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Horizontal Stringing

I am not going to revisit this, as Augustus suggested you are free to draw your own conclusions based on your observations. However, I will add...

The rifle I used in that reticle video above was 700P bought on the Hide, GAP changed the stock and barrel and not much else. it has a a stock firing assembly. If I leave the rifle alone and 'pop" the trigger free recoil style the bolt handle pops up just enough to see. So the bolt handle does move.

Does this mean I can't get the reticle to not move ? Nope, when I am behind the rifle, following though with the fundamentals the reticle does not move even a fraction of the width. So is the issue the movement you see without support or the movement you don't see with support.

Draw your own conclusions, but people have been shooting 700s for a very long time with stock receivers and custom barrels and getting outstanding accuracy from them. Usually when they don't there is a clear path back to the shooter.

But I again, your observations will definitely trump mine, simply because I am not there, and you are not here to see it any other way.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: Horizontal Stringing

Am I to understand that if I drive my rifle correctly while dry firing, the reticle will not move when the "shot breaks"?

Thanks,
-Chris

 

[SPAK]

Re: Horizontal Stringing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I to understand that if I drive my rifle correctly while dry firing, the reticle will not move when the "shot breaks"?

Thanks,
-Chris </div></div>

When done correctly, during live fire you shouldn't lose your target in the field of view when the shot breaks. When I do everything correctly meaning applying the fundamentals consistently I can see my shots appear at 100 yards and my reticle stays right on target. I can't do this everytime, but I strive to...

Dry firing, the same thing applies. If I see any movement when I dry fire, my position or my application of the fundamentals is not correct. When done correctly, my reticle does not move when dry firing.

If you haven't done so already, sign up for the online training. Nothing will replace live instruction, but the online training is WELL worth the money. The lessons cover the fundamentals of marksmanship and a whole lot more.

 

[RFtinkerer]

Re: Horizontal Stringing

Wow. MUCH better results, thanks everyone!

Aside from dry firing and a little more practice with the 22, the thing I did today was ditch the 100 yard bench rest range. That's NOT what I like, nor what I purchased the rifle to do. So I drove west until I hit a large blank farm area with some rolling hills. I don't know if I'll get in trouble for this, but it's what I did.

Being an engineer, I changed one variable at a time. I kept the 100 yard distance (actually 127 from the range finder, I drove the estimated distances and shot laying down in the back of my car) and set up a target on the side of the road in front of a hill. The variable I changed was shooting prone, but I still fired with my left hand on the rear bag under the rifle, and off a bipod. The rifle recoiled UP, instead of sideways, several inches, and the stringing changed from horizontal to vertical, again 2-3 inches. Interesting.

Next, I held the rifle's forestock with my left arm, applying pressure. That did it! The rifle jumped way less, and the stringing disappeared. I had my first <1 MOA group, sweet. But again, I didn't buy the 300 WM rifle to shoot close range...that's what the 22 is for.

I backed up to 300 yards (297 on the RF), and dialed 1 mil correction. Dead center, ~2 inch group, nice. Excited, I backed up more to shoot 570 yards away. The group broke up at this point, about 8 inches and 4 inches low center (incorrect BC used on Shooter, but I just wanted to see if I could hit the paper.)

Not bad for a newb. I'll keep shooting until I get better, and in different positions. Hopefully I don't get in any trouble shooting off the road, but the Kansas City area just does not have good ranges. Deer within 5-600 yards of me should fear for their lives this November, though.

And I'll probably shoot 1000 yards next time, just to see if I can get on the paper again.

 

[Situation Normal]

Re: Horizontal Stringing

RFt, thanks for posting the follow up. I've been following this thread and it's nice to hear that you are moving in the right direction. I'm in a similiar boat having getting a Browning A bolt in 308. Not the ideal long range shooter, but I'm trying.

 

[RFtinkerer]

Re: Horizontal Stringing

New update for those playing along at home:

I purchased the on-line training material here, figuring it could help. Although I was able to group somewhat well with the rifle now, I wasn't satisfied with the fact I was holding the forestock of the 300 WM rifle when I was holding the rear bag on my 22 and getting great groups. I know I can get more accurate by supporting the rear bag; less shakiness transferred to the rifle.

I went through much of the training on-line here, especially focusing on the fundamentals, and today went out and applied it. Perhaps the biggest difference I made was loading the bipod, but now I had my left hand on the rear bag and was holding on target much more steadily. First thing I found out I had to rezero, up and to the right about half a mil each. After that, I shot my best group yet, almost down to a half-inch group. Next group wasn't so good, unfortunately, I strung a shot about an inch high, then pushed more forward into the bipod and hit low. I'm seeing a pattern: How much I load the bipod affects my stringing, as well as maintaining as much sight picture as possible. I am NOT yet able to hold the sight picture like shown on the video--perhaps more evidence I should have bought a lighter recoiling rifle, or get a better muzzle brake. The one that came with the rifle doesn't do that much for me, IMO. I went to 300 and then 500 yards, and got decent groups, but both of those centered about a minute high. Not sure if it was loading incorrectly or the ballistics were off. Probably the former.

So, I need to work on loading the bipod more correctly, or at least consistently, and holding my sight picture when banging away with this thing. Calls for more shooting, aw shucks.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Horizontal Stringing

Possible causes of horizontal dispersion are: high vertical position, movement of right elbow, jerking the trigger, high right shoulder, no stability of position, varying head pressure, change in sight picture, and/or failure to maintain eye sight alignment. This list is of concern to a right eye dominant shooter, shooting from the right shoulder.