Range Report Hornady 147 ELDM blowing up

[BytorJr]

@seansmd, New report


Well, I'm totally puzzled at this point. Go out to range twice in 2 days. Yesterday I had a few 147 ELDM's left, shot. 100 yards and who TF knows what the hell was happening. ON paper, but....... not where aimed, then it was where pointed, then not. I'm not talking 2" here, but 12-13" spread.

Back it up to 50 yards. Now into my 140gr ELDM. Slightly better but I fold up early as it got dark and range closed.

Today, I finished the 140's and they seemed to be nowhere near where I was shooting. I switched back to 147gr and moved target to 25 yards. 1" group. Not great, but at least it's going where scope says it should go. I move it out to 50 yards. Shoot at the middle of my poster board where I drew a circle of 1" diameter. WHERE THE F is the hole? Cannot find it. Shoot again...ahhh, there it is 14" down from the drawn circle. Shoot again, 5" over the circle. I know this isn't me. Not when every other gun I can, with correct ammo (I'll discount Aguilla 55g in a 223), group at least MOA with any rifle I own barely trying - at 100 yards and no rear bag (the table setup at the range sucks for rear bag). How can I take a 308 out, zero at 25, be 1-2 mils off at 100, sight in again at 100 in < 10 shots from unknown position and I've blown 60 rounds now and have no clue where these things go when launch...just somewhere in a poster-board sized target at random. BULLSHIT.

WTF...are they really going unstable at 50 yards?????? (not keyholed though)

Tomorrow, I'm going to make the time to take one box of 143gr ELD-X out there. If they group fine, then HORNADY is getting a call. I cannot afford to go shooting what is now 2 dollar a round ammo and it group like a fucking shotgun. If 143gr sucks, then Craddock is getting a call.
I'm starting at 25 yards, moving to 50. If I can get a group of 3 at 50, then I'll take to 100. After that, I'll take to 400 and see if I can hit a 12" plate.

Sadly, I'm not sure now if it's the barrel or the bullets. F'ing nuts.

This is souring my 6.5mm CM experience - totally.

 

[seansmd]

@seansmd, New report


Well, I'm totally puzzled at this point. Go out to range twice in 2 days. Yesterday I had a few 147 ELDM's left, shot. 100 yards and who TF knows what the hell was happening. ON paper, but....... not where aimed, then it was where pointed, then not. I'm not talking 2" here, but 12-13" spread.

Back it up to 50 yards. Now into my 140gr ELDM. Slightly better but I fold up early as it got dark and range closed.

Today, I finished the 140's and they seemed to be nowhere near where I was shooting. I switched back to 147gr and moved target to 25 yards. 1" group. Not great, but at least it's going where scope says it should go. I move it out to 50 yards. Shoot at the middle of my poster board where I drew a circle of 1" diameter. WHERE THE F is the hole? Cannot find it. Shoot again...ahhh, there it is 14" down from the drawn circle. Shoot again, 5" over the circle. I know this isn't me. Not when every other gun I can, with correct ammo (I'll discount Aguilla 55g in a 223), group at least MOA with any rifle I own barely trying - at 100 yards and no rear bag (the table setup at the range sucks for rear bag). How can I take a 308 out, zero at 25, be 1-2 mils off at 100, sight in again at 100 in < 10 shots from unknown position and I've blown 60 rounds now and have no clue where these things go when launch...just somewhere in a poster-board sized target at random. BULLSHIT.

WTF...are they really going unstable at 50 yards?????? (not keyholed though)

Tomorrow, I'm going to make the time to take one box of 143gr ELD-X out there. If they group fine, then HORNADY is getting a call. I cannot afford to go shooting what is now 2 dollar a round ammo and it group like a fucking shotgun. If 143gr sucks, then Craddock is getting a call.
I'm starting at 25 yards, moving to 50. If I can get a group of 3 at 50, then I'll take to 100. After that, I'll take to 400 and see if I can hit a 12" plate.

Sadly, I'm not sure now if it's the barrel or the bullets. F'ing nuts.

This is souring my 6.5mm CM experience - totally.

I would verify that your action screws and scope mounting are torqued properly. At 100 I had keyhole and some completely coming apart, sounds like you have something else going on.

 

[BytorJr]

I would verify that your action screws and scope mounting are torqued properly. At 100 I had keyhole and some completely coming apart, sounds like you have something else going on.

ERA-TAC mount to rail, 10 newton-meters checked. 18-20 lb-ft rings, checked. (twice, I fell for that the first time). I've checked mount/rings now before and after coming back..no change. I admit it sounds like a scope issue. The only reason I have discounted it is because at 25 yards is close to spot on.

AR-10 platform. Not sure what else to check. It' pretty tight between upper and lower. The only other thing I can think of is just to take the brake off and see if that's screwing it up. No evidence it's hitting the brake, but just to make sure I'll let the gun go naked in public. Maybe I need to tune the gas block better. I have no idea...never seen any thing like this other than on a buddies 30 Carbine which was the rear sight not being dovetailed properly (non-GI).

 

[seansmd]

ERA-TAC mount to rail, 10 newton-meters checked. 18-20 lb-ft rings, checked. (twice, I fell for that the first time). I've checked mount/rings now before and after coming back..no change. I admit it sounds like a scope issue. The only reason I have discounted it is because at 25 yards is close to spot on.

AR-10 platform. Not sure what else to check. It' pretty tight between upper and lower. The only other thing I can think of is just to take the brake off and see if that's screwing it up. No evidence it's hitting the brake, but just to make sure I'll let the gun go naked in public. Maybe I need to tune the gas block better. I have no idea...never seen any thing like this other than on a buddies 30 Carbine which was the rear sight not being dovetailed properly (non-GI).

Good idea on the brake, I didn't realize it's a gasser.

I assume that once you are on at 100, you adjusted the scope to zero the turrets?
If so did you dial up a bunch and back down, same with windage to ensure the scope is returning to zero?

My question here is you didn't say it when you went to 400 you dialed or held the elevation change.

 

[BytorJr]

Good idea on the brake, I didn't realize it's a gasser.

I assume that once you are on at 100, you adjusted the scope to zero the turrets?
If so did you dial up a bunch and back down, same with windage to ensure the scope is returning to zero?

My question here is you didn't say it when you went to 400 you dialed or held the elevation change.

I held elevation @ my 2 parlays into 400 yards a 2-3 weeks ago. I didn't make it to the range today. Saturday is usually the "do everything errand day." I took the scope back off, Wheeler Laser Zero'd in back yard, re-torqued, re-lasered, and will head to the very, very long distance section of my range, 25 yards, and see what happens. I also took the brake off and it's clean as a whistle, but that doesn't mean it's not screwing around with things. I managed to do some other gunsmithing today too, but not well . Damn AR ejector!!! I guess I'll order the tool. 2020...the year of optics, tools, and COVID.

Hopefully tomorrow I'll be back with great news.

 

[vh20]

I held elevation @ my 2 parlays into 400 yards a 2-3 weeks ago. I didn't make it to the range today. Saturday is usually the "do everything errand day." I took the scope back off, Wheeler Laser Zero'd in back yard, re-torqued, re-lasered, and will head to the very, very long distance section of my range, 25 yards, and see what happens. I also took the brake off and it's clean as a whistle, but that doesn't mean it's not screwing around with things. I managed to do some other gunsmithing today too, but not well . Damn AR ejector!!! I guess I'll order the tool. 2020...the year of optics, tools, and COVID.

Hopefully tomorrow I'll be back with great news.

Sounds like scope or barrel issue. I've had some problems with the 147s destabilizing out around 1300, but I've shot literally thousands of the 140s with not a single issue. The best/quickest thing I could recommend is to swap out the scope with another one and try again. It's rare for a rifle to shoot THAT bad!

 

[BytorJr]

I probably need to move this to a new thread, but I went to range between work meetings today. More puzzled than ever. 22 rounds wasted. I attempted a re-zero of my scope after "zeroing" with the Wheeler Laser in back yard. At 50 yards I was quite high. However, I managed to get it close to where I thought zero should be. I was consistently getting flyers. Every now and then 2 would lay within 0.35" of each other. I moved to 143 gr and thought...okay...that seems better. 2 in same hole. 3rd shot...high and outside. 4th shot, low and a bit less out. I'm using a bag in front and back. So I don't think this is me. After that string of 4 where I had 2 in same hole, 3&4 completely off, I ejected the remaining round....Low and Behold. Round is really scratched up and gouged. I decide to put one more in magazine and chamber, dechamber. Again, scratched up.

I came home, disassembled AR-10 platform, put round in chamber manually (no bolt) - pulled out, put in, turned around....about 5 times. Nothing, no scratches. So my new theory is at least for now, it's not the bullets; but does seem to be either something in the barrel or the chambering/dechambering process. I eliminated the brake from the equation as most were shot without, and 4-5 were shot with - no significant deviation. I'm wondering, since it's an adjustable gas block if I need to dial it to put less gas on the bolt.

Tonight, I'll take the firing pin out and see what happens by just cycling a round, then extracting by hand.

 

[CNC-Dude]

Just a thought! But have you re-checked the torque on the barrel nut...?

 

[BytorJr]

Just a thought! But have you re-checked the torque on the barrel nut...?

Good suggestion. I'll have to figure out how to take the handguard off and find my wrench. Aero handguard so it should be easy to take that off. But that would explain a lot of why it was great day one, and now is all over the place.

 

[BytorJr]

I haven't begun this new task; but I must say, I'm done with these "boutique" builders. The fact I waited close to a year for the upper and now it's massively under performing from what I can tell is really disheartening. I've looked down the bore with a bright flashlight and nothing obvious sticks out. If removing the handguard and verifying the torque doesn't work, then I'm out of places to look. If I could get it to a good gunsmith (I've heard they exist) then maybe he could sort it out. However, I've blown more ammo than it should ever take to get any firearm sorted out. Next purchase will be a Tikka, screw it. Next post will be in semi-auto forum unless my bullets actually start going poof...then again, I'd have to know where they are supposed to hit.

 

[danatkins]

So got bit by the 147 boom today had a doe dead to rights at 120 and the bullet exploded about 30 yards out. Factory ammo.

 

[Steel head]

So got bit by the 147 boom today had a doe dead to rights at 120 and the bullet exploded about 30 yards out. Factory ammo.

It was bound to happen with the 147 and 180’s.

 

[BytorJr]

Well, by mistake I ordered some 120gr Hornady. I've blown a small fortune trying to figure out WTF is wrong with my new 6.5. 1 in 7.5 twist. At 25 and even 50 yards it looks like it's a shooter with 147. At around 100 it falls to pieces. 175 it's AWFUL. I've contacted maker...as we know they said "carbon ring" - wasn't any carbon ring after my last 1 hour of cleaning damn thing.

So, lot's of people said change scope. Did that. Zero'd a bit better today and went to 100 yards. nothing spectacular (maybe 1.5/2MOA!!!). So, instead of blowing my "precious" 147's I stuck in the 120s. FREAKING LASER at 100. 0.75 MOA including my ooopsie.

Now I'm even more confused. Is it the bullet or the gun? Headspace? Twist rate (I'd have thought 120gr would have been more problematic @ 1/7.5)?

I have 200 rounds of 140 coming in that I'll try next. Or should I just call the folks that made upper with Bartlein blank? Well known here...but I'm not getting a warm fuzzy on backing their product at this point...carbon ring...yeah......right.

The only positive is trigger time...albeit very pricey.

 

[sharac]

Well now it started more often here two by at least three shooters. I for one started new batch of bullets bought last year and there seems to be a pattern of 1-2/10 simply not registering at target (shotmarker). It might have been an issue beforehand but we were shooting mostly steel so anything not making it to the steel was discounted as a shooter error/miss. What is funny is that some bullets arrive at target (800m) at wierd angle of °15 (this is something shotmarker warns you about as angles beyond 20 are not recorded). And while i was shooting guys watching alerted me that sound on the round that didn't make it to the target has a different pop kinda like muffled double pop not classic supersonic bullet crack - but due to terrain being grassy there was no visible fragmentation/splashes of bullet coming apart.
The funnier part was some of the shots fired from my rifle had a first 20m a trace behind them (see wwII fighter footage of their cannons firing and smoke traces) - not all just some shots, but they did make it to the target and within expected group at expected speed. Since i wasn't loading with flour, cocain or any other white powder and my RS60 powder is black and never left anything but a cloud of smoke it was obviously something that was on/off the bullet. Could it be vapor due to tumbling, pieces of jacket -> AOA or like fighter aircraft wing tips or leading edges while pulling Gs in humid environment? But the shots were within 1.6moa group i shot.

To note a colleagues shot that didn't make it to the target also did not register on labradar...

PS: After checking angle was due to sensor orientation (poor) of one of the frames other frame was ok.

 

[Lowlight]

The Lead,

The bullet blows up then the jacket hits the ground,

We had them blowing up close in too, we filmed it, was on FB with that video, it's in Slo-Mo too, you can see it cavitate and break apart

 

[seansmd]

Mine on a100y target was zero'ing the rifle someone happened to be on glass identified the first shot lower left circle, second shot he said what did you do? You can see the fragments in the angle from the POA to the impact on the t-post.

 

[Baron23]

Aaaand, still according to Hornady it never happens, right?

 

[acourvil]

No, actually what Hornady says is that it is your fault. You are spinning the bullet too fast, or your barrel is too dirty or too worn. .

 

[Josh1978]

The Lead,

The bullet blows up then the jacket hits the ground,

View attachment 7631882

We had them blowing up close in too, we filmed it, was on FB with that video, it's in Slo-Mo too, you can see it cavitate and break apart

You don’t by chance have a link to that video do you?

 

[BCX]

Simply solution to this problem,,,,,, is shoot Berger's! Problem solved.

 

[seansmd]

They replaced all my ammo, mine was all eldm 6.5prc, 8 , 4groove

 

[st1650]

So it does that even at 6.5 creedmoor velocity ? What about the 143 Eld-X ? Do they have the same issues ?

 

[Average guy]

So it does that even at 6.5 creedmoor velocity ? What about the 143 Eld-X ? Do they have the same issues ?

I sent a 147 through a 100 yard target sideways out of my creedmoor. It was running 2750-2800.

 

[st1650]

I sent a 147 through a 100 yard target sideways out of my creedmoor. It was running 2750-2800.

Thats crazy .. and still seems like it's been an on-going issue for a while. I have mostly Berger 140s and Scenar 123 on hand for reloading but I bough a case of factory 143 ELD-X for the next hunting season ... maybe should go with something else like the Fed Fusion 140 ...

 

[Lowlight]

Here is one,

 

[Baron23]

Here is one,

HI Frank -in that vid it looks like the bullet fragments is what caused that splash of dirt....right?

Didn't you have another vid from lower behind the shooter that showed the bullet blowing up into a white cloud in mid-air.....or am I hallucinating again! haha

And only from a cool barrel....do you think that perhaps the bore was a bit tight when cold and damaged the jacket which would go away when the barrel warmed up and expanded a bit? Yeah, prob just speculation but wow.....this is still going on, yeah?

 

[seansmd]

That puff 30 yards out maybe farther, is in the air

 

[Lowlight]

there are two puffs,

A white one in the air, then immediately a brown one in the ground,

If you slide the player in SloMo you can see it cavitate and then break apart, it's a game to find the sweet spot in order to see it the best

 

[lash]

Thats crazy .. and still seems like it's been an on-going issue for a while. I have mostly Berger 140s and Scenar 123 on hand for reloading but I bough a case of factory 143 ELD-X for the next hunting season ... maybe should go with something else like the Fed Fusion 140 ...

The times that I’ve been able to witness this were all from 6.5 Creedmoor shooting Hornady factory ammo. Two different guys, unrelated, shooting 143s with success for an hour or so and then moving to the 147s. Strangely to me, their bullets went poof much farther out than a couple hundred yards. They would get some hits and then...nothing, no splash, no indication at all that a bullet was fired unless you happened to be spotting and saw the brief poof.

I personally have not seen that with the 143s, though that is not proof positive for anything.

And fwiw, Scenar 136s work great for hunting anything you were planning on using 140s for.

 

[st1650]

The times that I’ve been able to witness this were all from 6.5 Creedmoor shooting Hornady factory ammo. Two different guys, unrelated, shooting 143s with success for an hour or so and then moving to the 147s. Strangely to me, their bullets went poof much farther out than a couple hundred yards. They would get some hits and then...nothing, no splash, no indication at all that a bullet was fired unless you happened to be spotting and saw the brief poof.

I personally have not seen that with the 143s, though that is not proof positive for anything.

And fwiw, Scenar 136s work great for hunting anything you were planning on using 140s for.

Any major differences between the scenar-L 136 and the 139 ? I can get both for about the same price. And would the Scenar do better than Berger 140 - 26409 ? This would be for deer hunting in the 150-300 yards range. I don’t know much about hunting with match bullets, in the past I’ve hunted with 308 and 300BLK and always used Barnes TTSX or Fed Fusion. I thought the 143 ELD-X would be a nice hybrid accurate hunting load but reading other people experience, seems the bullet really doesn’t hold up together that great. I know it’s just deer and not elk but I really don’t want to loose an animal due to a bullet underperforming.

 

[lash]

Any major differences between the scenar-L 136 and the 139 ? I can get both for about the same price. And would the Scenar do better than Berger 140 - 26409 ? This would be for deer hunting in the 150-300 yards range. I don’t know much about hunting with match bullets, in the past I’ve hunted with 308 and 300BLK and always used Barnes TTSX or Fed Fusion. I thought the 143 ELD-X would be a nice hybrid accurate hunting load but reading other people experience, seems the bullet really doesn’t hold up together that great. I know it’s just deer and not elk but I really don’t want to loose an animal due to a bullet underperforming.

Well, I’m no industry guy, but my understanding is that the 136 are given a further refining and other than that are a 139 at the start. I do know that that the 136s I’ve used are extremely consistent and while they may not actually be tipped, the quality and consistency of the tips, the oal and the ogive are so good that I cannot separate them dimensionally.

As to their ability as a hunting bullet, ask @psinclair about the amount of all kinds of game he has taken or guided in the taking with the .260 using 136 Scenar Ls.

 

[DJL2]

I guess I need to burn my 147s for brass when I get a chance. I've got a new 20" 6.5 CM, so they might even hold together...we'll see. I've got some 130 TMK I've been running...but, the aerodynamics on those leave a lot to be desired and I haven't found them easy to tune (I think I've got about a .006" seating depth window...just to try and get them running about as well as Hornady 140 BTHP AG stuff).

 

[sharac]

Something like that on the video from my rifle but much closer to the barrel and the weirdest thing fucking lead dripping bullet made it into the group @800m must tell the rest of the guys to move all 9s to 10 or X .

 

[Steel head]

You think the 147 blow up a lot?
They’re chumps compared to the 180eldm blow ups!

 

[db2000]

The Lead,

The bullet blows up then the jacket hits the ground,

View attachment 7631882

We had them blowing up close in too, we filmed it, was on FB with that video, it's in Slo-Mo too, you can see it cavitate and break apart

The worst part about it is, when I called the rep acted like they didn’t know anything about it. It was insulting after I’ve praised other products from them.
Offered to replace any bullets I had left but not the missing ones from the partial box...many of which exploded.

 

[264win]

The worst part about it is, when I called the rep acted like they didn’t know anything about it. It was insulting after I’ve praised other products from them.
Offered to replace any bullets I had left but not the missing ones from the partial box...many of which exploded.

This is what I find most damming. Anyone with a 3 digit IQ is well aware that the problem is the bullets. But they continue to pretend ignorance.
It’s a shame since the vast majority of hornady products are good quality for their price point.

 

[JMGlasgow]

They should have just stuck with the Amax. I never had any issues with them in any caliber or weight.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

So just so I’m all caught up, the company that invented melting A-Max followed it up with Exploding LDM round? ELDM?

 

[264win]

So just so I’m all caught up, the company that invented melting A-Max followed it up with Exploding LDM round? ELDM?

Yup, you nailed it

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Yup, you nailed it

Sorry it took me a while to get caught up.

 

[sharac]

Yesterday's session with little more temperature sure did wonders for group sizes @805 meters. Basically 0 moa as when barrel heated up Hornady kept exploding. On cold barrel (920mb, 20°C 41.5gr RS60, 260rem, 72.2mmCOAL, 2850fps) ammo worked fine and i got cold bore off, another shot as a follow up, 30minutes pause and string of 12. I made it to around 6 and then disappearing bullet act started again and again (surely like 10 exploded in the row). Tried my ammo in friends rifle (same barrel - Lothar 7" twist SS, same reamer but sako receiver instead of tikka) 2 for 2 Houdini. Friends 147 performed better but one loads x47 lapua a bit slower and another 260 like 50fps lower. Big puff of smoke 30m from the barrel is all that remains of ELDM crap.

I will try again on the cold barrel and try to reduce charge to a like 40ish (2750-2800) to see if it makes any difference.

 

[seansmd]

Yeah when mine were going poof I was in the desert and it was pretty hot. That night I threw a couple of boxes of ammo in the cooler, and tried again first thing in the morning, same shit within 5 rounds, poof!

 

[Steel head]

So just so I’m all caught up, the company that invented melting A-Max followed it up with Exploding LDM round? ELDM?

Don’t forget the premium A-tip that has a habit of pulling a Houdini as well!

 

[Zane1844]

I shot like 350rds of these without issue in my Bergara.

I have 60rds left to try in my 26” Bartlein.

Because of all these reports, I won’t be buying more.

 

[264win]

I hope the message Hornady receives from this is that we demand they fix the problem.

Until then I am going to keep sharing this with as many people as possible.
If enough of us do the same I think we can get some results.

 

[danatkins]

So have we gotten anywhere

 

[Biscuits]

Just saw this thread. I bought a chunk of 147 6.5CM factory ammo (well a chunk by European standards). I used about 10 rounds zeroing it at 100 and 200, then used about 50 rounds at varying distances up to 1150 metres.

Are the blow ups still happening? I could probably live with an occasional blow up as the 147s seem very good; I hit that 1150 metre, 1MoA target on the second shot with the first only just a miss. Tikka T3x TAC 1 in 8 twist, they aren't coming out that fast, 2600fps in a new rifle/ new barrel.

 

[Baron23]

So have we gotten anywhere

Yeah, we’ve gotten to Berger’s. Lol

 

[danatkins]

Or in my case 140 eldms and 135 atips

 

[Biscuits]

Or in my case 140 eldms and 135 atips

Have you compared the 140 ELDMs with the 147s (or 147s which haven't blown up) for ELR?