Hornady versus Berger
- Thread starter BurtGummer
- Start date
Watched a Berger hybrid blow up at an fclass match. One of the team shooters running 180 hybrids out of a juiced up 7mm. Only 1 blew up out of maybe 100 rounds. But looked like a fire cracker blowing up in the air. Went off about 100 yards out on the 1000 yard line
Worst part is it cost him 10 pts as it wasn’t a hit on target
Looked exactly like all the other pics/videos I’ve posted lol
I didn’t get any video of the ones yesterday because every stage is blind and you’re not allowed to watch the other competitors.
Here’s the ones blowing up at the NF ELR
As far as down range, here’s what it looks like at 100 yards if it actually makes it to the board. Wouldn’t group for shit then you get bananas In your target
I think it's barrel issues. Not necessarily any 1 thing wrong, but several minor things are adding up to destroy the jacket.
I've never had one blow up. I've shot a pile of 147 eld-m out of my 6.5 and they're supposed to always fall apart.
As long as they keep shooting half moa I'll save the $20/box. That's lots of extra shooting over the life of a barrel.
I would disagree. Factory hornady 6.5prc blowing in multiple of my barrels (all Bartlien 8.5twists) Swap to a different bullet and no poofs. Scoped the barrel and no issues. The jackets are too thin for the velocity they claim it can handle.
Every match I’ve been to in the last 2 months has had more than one person blowing up eldms and a-tips.
I’m also pissed because I was out $2k for a match because of blowing up factory hornady ammo and when I called to tell them about it they basically implied that I was the retard and didn’t want to even have a discussion. Customer service was non-existent.
Sounds like you were unprepared. I test before I get to the match, not during.
If you were shooting them you must have been ok with them before?
What is the difference between the Barlien and the other barrel/s. Twist , groove style, ect....? Just curious.
It's not in the barrel. Something else is going on.
I myself haven't had a single failure. The only one or two failures I've seen here has been from the barrel either physically having too many rounds on it and the throat of the barrel was getting really rough and it was time to pull it or too many rounds with a rough throat in conjunction with a lot of carbon build up.
The really high round count and carbon build up gave Dave a here a problem with his 6.5PRC (one of his PRS guns). He had me look at the barrel. Throat didn't look horrible to me even though it was rough but his barrel was heavily carbon fouled. I had him clean the barrel and we looked at it again. I said to give the barrel a really light lap to get the stubborn carbon build up out. He went to the next match and fired almost a 150 rounds with no bullet failures. Oh....the bullets he blew up....where not Hornady's. I'm not going to say who the bullet manufacturer was as in Dave's case it wasn't the bullet causing the problem. It was round count and carbon build up.
A shooter can have a combination of things going on...it could be the bullets themselves...it can be a combination of things causing the bullets to blow up and have nothing to do with the bullets fault.
Velocities, twist rate, round count, how the barrel is maintained (how often the barrel is being cleaned), damage from cleaning etc...
How the barrel was made is a factor at times. A tight bore barrel is going to amplify a bullet failure problem. That's why I'm not a fan of shooting a tight bore barrel. With good match type bullets a tight bore barrel isn't going to do anything special for you from a accuracy point of view and or barrel life but it will amplify issues with ammo and bullets etc...and can be part of the problem with bullet failure. Same goes for any damage to the barrel from when it was made, poor gunsmithing or damage from cleaning. If the lands get damaged...they will beat the bullet up more.
I've got bullets/ammo from both Hornady and Sierra where a customer was experiencing failures. The maker couldn't reproduce the results at times...sends us the bullets/ammo and we test it....and cannot get the bullets/ammo to fail at all.
Like I said in a earlier post...I myself have not had a single failure with a Hornady or Sierra. I have had Bergers blow up on me and proved it was with a particular lot of bullets. So yes the bullets can be a problem in itself.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
WTF are talking about?!?!
So let me get this straight.
Barrel - Bartlein 5R (Can't blame any other manufacturer like Hornady typacally likes to do. Especially about their grooves...)
Twst Rate - 1:8 Twist (Can't blame it on Twist, as their minimum recommended for the 147 ELD-M is a 1:8)
Ammo - Can't blame it on reloads as its their Factory ammo
But, @hic28 was unprepared....Right........
I bought 1,000 rounds of factory ammo, same lot. Shot it at the 2019 NF ELR with no issues. 200 rounds of messing around and getting dope situated. Cleaned it, then shot the match, 150 rounds and took the barrel off and cleaned it and put it in the safe. No pops that I noticed up to this point.
shot the 2020 NF ELR with factory 300prc. Went the following weekend to the SH cup with the 6.5prc barrel and the same lot factory hornady ammo. First 2x 5round groups were horrible and I thought it just needed some fouling after a cleaning but 10 rounds was quite a bit. Then started noticing no impacts on target every few rounds and started filming them exploding.
what else could have been done to prepare?
Frank Green. I did not for a moment think the problem was your barrel. The mention of the bullets working in another brand tweaked my interest.
So you bought this ammo last year and it shot fine in testing and competition. This year you shot the same ammo you bought last year and it failed for you when using the exact same equipment. From your description the only difference is that you pulled the barrel and then reinstalled it.
Are you sure there wasn’t some minute difference in how the barrel was reinstalled or some wear to the action/bolt. Not trying to be snarky but everyone misses things from time to time.
First paragraph - yes
second - I’m sure the barrels were installed correctly. Barrel was on an AXMC. The reason I know it wasn’t an installation error is I came home and hand loaded some Berger’s that shot amazing, no growth in brass or anything out of the ordinary.
Wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone show up to a match with new ammo. He didn't mention shooting it prior to the match.
Shoot it before the match after reinstalling the barrel?
Seems odd there were no issues until you switched barrels. Get a borescope down it? I'd be interested to know if you just happened to start to develop fire cracking, as several have noted issues develop 25-50% into the life of the barrel.
I had 153 ATips blow up during a match, 5 out of 50 never made it to the target. I switched to the Berger 153.5 LR hybrids, same barrel and never had a problem.
Didn't take it wrong/bad at all.
I did note you saying that you went to different bullets and no issues.
I'm scratching my head!
You have like 20 or 30 bullets you could send me? I'll run them thru my gun or guns if you like and will see what happens.
Later, Frank
The Hornady 147 gr 6.5 ELDMs shoot great out of my Savage, and I’ve never had one explode. That said, I do see variation in ogive between lots of bullets, because I need to adjust seating depth between boxes to hold consistent base to ogive length. I’ve only heard good things about Berger consistency, but haven’t used their 6.5 bullets yet.
Frank Green you are a stand up guy. My 1st post was to question hic28 said: as I misread his statement. I thought he said different 'brand barrel' worked same bullet, not different brand bullets worked same brand barrel. I am sorry for the confusion but, I love your response to a problem.
That puts bullet rpm at 278,400rpm. Which should be o.k. but as you approach the upper 200k's and I draw a hard line in the sand at 300k....bullet failure is going to happen. It's just a matter of time.
What I would be curious to know about the shooter in UTAH...how many rounds on the barrel? How often being cleaned? How was the barrel made? Number of grooves in the barrel?
There are more variables that come into play.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
PS...Todd here in the shop has a 6.5PRC and has had no bullet failures of any kind. I/Todd even ran almost a 100 rounds thru his gun I got from Hornady for testing that the ammo/box where suppose to be having bullet failures....we didn't experience a single failure. These where 147's in box ammo. His barrel is a 7.25 twist. So that puts bullet RPM at roughly 288k out of his gun.
My 6.5 saum,bartlein 5r 7.5 twist blows up 147's and 150 smk's @2950 fps. Berger 153.5 just hammer at 1 mile. It's the bullets.
400 rounds on barrel. 28" heavy palma.
400 rounds on barrel. 28" heavy palma.
I actually just shoot whatever I can get my hands on; Lapua Scenars, Nosler, Hornady, Sierra, Berger.
I remember shooting several matches with Accubonds, because it was all I could get.
It's nice when you have a half inch or better group with your preferred bullet.
But when you have a match coming up and you only have X bullet because there is nothing else availiable you shoot what you can get.
I remember an F-Class match where one of the competitors shot Nosler partitions.
I remember shooting several matches with Accubonds, because it was all I could get.
It's nice when you have a half inch or better group with your preferred bullet.
But when you have a match coming up and you only have X bullet because there is nothing else availiable you shoot what you can get.
I remember an F-Class match where one of the competitors shot Nosler partitions.
im not sure if he is on this forum but from what he told me he did load dev then came to the match. Less than 100 rounds on the barrel prior to coming to the match. Barrel was a proof carbon 7.5 twist. He didn’t mention length but it Looked to be about 24 inches.
The other thing I'll throw in here as well....I've measured other brands of barrels and the bores/grooves have been undersize. This will add to any issues the bullets might have as well.
You got guys saying "it's the bullets" and guys saying "It's the barrels" and it's just not that simple. It's both, and more.
I've seen barrels that blew up 147's, that simply changing the lot of bullets fixed it. I've seen barrels that blew 147's, 150 smk, and 140 Berger hybrids. I've seen barrels develop the jacket shredding from brand new to 4000 rounds in. I've seen barrels that blow 150 SMK's and not 147 ELDMs... I've fed the same lot of bullets that blow up in a guy's 6.5 creedmoor into a 6.5 PRC and had no issues.
It's a combination of load, heat, barrel, condition, bullet, etc.
Not all barrels are made the same, even barrels that shoot well still sometimes have (impressive) variation in dimensions, erosion does not happen uniformly, fouling is not harmless...
I've seen barrels that blew up 147's, that simply changing the lot of bullets fixed it. I've seen barrels that blew 147's, 150 smk, and 140 Berger hybrids. I've seen barrels develop the jacket shredding from brand new to 4000 rounds in. I've seen barrels that blow 150 SMK's and not 147 ELDMs... I've fed the same lot of bullets that blow up in a guy's 6.5 creedmoor into a 6.5 PRC and had no issues.
It's a combination of load, heat, barrel, condition, bullet, etc.
Not all barrels are made the same, even barrels that shoot well still sometimes have (impressive) variation in dimensions, erosion does not happen uniformly, fouling is not harmless...
Well, based on how shitty hornadys customer service was to me when I called. I’m gonna blame the bullet. I’ve got a bunch of bartliens currently in a pile and a bunch more on rifles and more waiting for chambering and never had issues with those matched with Berger’s.
I buy a ton of hornady factory ammo and when they start blowing up it’s my fault and I’m the idiot. Maybe I just got a CS guy having a shitty day but when more and more people get the same reaction it kinda says something.
@Frank Green is putting ideas out there and offering to test and help figure out what the issue is. For that reason alone I’ll continue to buy his barrels. As for hornady rifle bullets, I’ve moved on even if it means paying more money.
I buy a ton of hornady factory ammo and when they start blowing up it’s my fault and I’m the idiot. Maybe I just got a CS guy having a shitty day but when more and more people get the same reaction it kinda says something.
@Frank Green is putting ideas out there and offering to test and help figure out what the issue is. For that reason alone I’ll continue to buy his barrels. As for hornady rifle bullets, I’ve moved on even if it means paying more money.
Same here. I've had what I would describe as poor and unacceptable results overall with Hornady A-Tips and even some of the 75's I was shooting out of a .223.
What I've seen is that the A-Tips shoot exceptionally well out of a brand new barrel, but when the barrel develops some fire cracking (or general wear) in the throat or rifling, the A-Tips (specifically) will not fly predictably. I could name you some very high-ranking shooters in the PRS with the exact same experience, so this is not an isolated incident. I guess you don't get a 6mm 110 grain bullet with a .310 BC unless it's pushing the razor's edge of aerodynamic performance. The tradeoff seems to be predictability of the bullet over the life of the barrel.
I've tested everything with regard to cleaning, seating depth/load adjustment that we can think of, but the only 100% cure for them seems to be a new barrel. Otherwise, they "work", but not at the accuracy level you'd expect from a highly-touted product.
Once I exhaust my supply of them, I won't be buying them again.
