Brought it home this week. This thing is phenomenal so far. The noise is insane.
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Horse Power, Track Shit, Torque, Cubic Inches, Liters, Run What Ya Brung, Auto or Cycle
- Thread starter DarnYankeeUSMC
- Start date
Brought it home this week. This thing is phenomenal so far. The noise is insane.
I put close to 100mi on it in the last 24hr and I’ve got a big shit-eating grin on my face every time it breaks 4k rpm. I have two friends with 2023 GT4RS’s that are fully broken in and the howl from 8-9k is wild.
I decided to replace the stock 28-year-old rubber motor mounts before installing the new engine. Turns out that the mount-to-frame bolts can't be accessed without removing the lower control arms. Sure would have been nice to understand this when the control arms were out earlier in the build to receive new bushings. Oh well; at least the bolts were easy to break free.
Bring ‘em to Snowshoe next year for the Hillclimb event. It was a huge success this year. You can look at posted times on the website.
This one was especially badass. He drove over 30 hrs to participate and designed/invented this rotary engine for it is my understanding.
1966 VW Karmann Ghia Rotary
1966 VW Karmann Ghia Rotary
Very cool. Always fun to see two oddball things combined into one machine.
Great trip to Mid-Ohio a couple weeks ago...my second favorite track behind Barber.
Not too bad for a stock power 3800lb sedan (pretty sure DH scrubs helped)
Not too bad for a stock power 3800lb sedan (pretty sure DH scrubs helped)
Looks like a fun track & a great time! I'd love to get out there sometime... Have you had a chance to make it down here to VIR yet by chance?
Have not been to VIR...it is 8hr+ from home but high on my list along with Road America.
Outside shot I'll get to VIR for Fullsend Fallfest the weekend of 20 Sept...Racing 4 ALS is sold out end of Sept.
Outside shot I'll get to VIR for Fullsend Fallfest the weekend of 20 Sept...Racing 4 ALS is sold out end of Sept.
Awesome man, you'll love VIR it's an amazing track! A lot more technical than it appears for sure. Road America is on my bucket list along with COTA & Laguna Seca of course... Maybe one day lol
I've been wondering for a few years why they scrapped the GT350 in favor of the GT500. I think they went the wrong way.
The current Dark Horse is basically a GT350 with slightly less HP. A local shop has extensive track experience with both and I believe the Dark Horse was at least as fast as the GT350, maybe slightly faster.
I was just about ready to trade my 350 on a 500... Until I drove one. The DCT is an amazing transmission and they make brutal power, but to me it felt way heavier and didn't have the same "driver's connection" as the N/A 5.2/stick car that's several hundred pounds lighter. Ford Performance definitely got a lot of things right on these 350s & I would've loved to see them refine it further but I guess the horsepower race with the ZL1 & Hellcat was more important at the time
Everyone says they want a "pure" high-rev N/A driving experience, but when it comes time to open the checkbook, big forced-induction horsepower still wins.
It doesn't help that the pony car market continues to shrink, and slicing a smaller pie into more pieces doesn't work - especially when it involves bespoke engines and hefty licensing fees
The "issue" with Mustang 5.0/5.2 "in general" is the same with almost all 4 cam high reving motors... no torque and you have to rev the shit out of them to make power. Thats fine on the racetrack, but annoying on the street.
I bet less than 10% of GT350's have ever been on the track and thus they feel doggy on the street and thus the demand for a PD blower to really up the torque.
My 24 Mustang GT 6spd perf pack car with 3.73 rear end is a dog until you get the rev's up... would probably be even better with a 4.11 but the 3.73 was a deep as you can get from the factory.
I bet less than 10% of GT350's have ever been on the track and thus they feel doggy on the street and thus the demand for a PD blower to really up the torque.
My 24 Mustang GT 6spd perf pack car with 3.73 rear end is a dog until you get the rev's up... would probably be even better with a 4.11 but the 3.73 was a deep as you can get from the factory.
Coyotes and Voodoos do sound good when wound out, though...but especially the Coyote is obnoxious AF with headers and cutouts. Like "I hope this MFer blows sound" obnoxious AF.
God knows that's correct... Every year I've been to Mustang Week it's really old hearing all the straight piped Coyotes by the second or third day. And then they wonder why the cops are all up their asses lol
Not without the flat plane crank it's not. The engine sound is the star of the GT350 show.
Preaching to the choir man. Every time I drive some big high hp car I expect it to be a wild experience. I always end up preferring to get back into some low power flyweight instead. I'm also starting to dislike forced induction in my old age. I paid for all the rpm's, I want a reason to need to use all of them.
Porsche GT3 cars seem to sell well. At the hypercar end of things all the newest most exotic things are high revving NA engines with presumably no low end power. T50, Tourbillon, Nilu, 12Cilindri etc.
I don't know, if 400ft lbs from 3-6k isn't enough for street driving then I guess I've been doing street driving wrong all this time.
2013 M3. Last year NA. Redlines 8300. It was fun in the hillclimb event just driving the hell out of it all wound out!
I think I am going to fall down the rabbit hole and install a MK60E5 ABS unit in my Miata. Got an ABS unit and a yaw sensor coming from ebay. Need to build a wiring harness, but thats like $250 worth of parts and wire. Wheel speed sensors are about 30 bucks a piece. Tone rings are magnetic, not tooth based, but they are available also for like maybe 30 bucks a piece.
I dont "think" I care about the ABS functionality, but when I do the LS swap I can use the MK60E5 unit to output either CAN or it has 5v outputs for each wheel speed sensor for traction control. The Haltech Rebel LS will work with either and does traction control as a % of wheel slip and you can reduce timing, fuel or ignition cut. I was concerned it only had the ability to possibly close the throttle body which in a track car is not ideal coming out of a corner.
I dont "think" I care about the ABS functionality, but when I do the LS swap I can use the MK60E5 unit to output either CAN or it has 5v outputs for each wheel speed sensor for traction control. The Haltech Rebel LS will work with either and does traction control as a % of wheel slip and you can reduce timing, fuel or ignition cut. I was concerned it only had the ability to possibly close the throttle body which in a track car is not ideal coming out of a corner.
I don't mind a motor that requires some revs. The whole point of running a manual gearbox is to make such a thing happen when I want it to happen. The V6 in my commuter car has a big torque hole at 2k. I can either lug it and complain, or drop a gear or two.
The overall gearing thing is frustrating, considering that wide-ratio-spread 6-speed gearboxes have been in common use for the last 30 years. A 3.73 final drive combined with a 3.25 1st gear is IMO too shallow for an engine with an 8200 RPM redline, especially with the 28" tall tires of modern cars. Ford needs to give that thing some 4.56s and then use a taller 6th gear if necessary to calm it down at highway speeds.
The one thing ABS does that I cannot is independently control a wheel that has been unloaded by corner. I'm not sure that's as important on your Miata as it is on some of the solid-axle high-CoG junk that I've driven, but maybe there's still some marginal benefit.
A word of caution on traction control - the typical method of adjusting engine output torque is to retard the timing, since this is nearly instantaneous and quite predictable. Done properly, it feels like magic - you can simply mat the throttle near the apex and let the ECU feed in more torque as the steering wheel is unwound. As a bonus, it sounds really cool.
The downside? Retarding the timing puts a bunch of extra heat into the combustion chamber and exhaust. It's enough to scorch ceramic header coating, eat plugs, burn exhaust valves and seats, and beat up the piston crown. Use it sparingly and don't "lean" on it every corner. Or go ahead and do that, but expect it to occasionally hurt parts.
Yeah or 9-10 speed trannys w/ DCT
Those are cool, but overkill. The Coyote produces decent torque in a range of 3000-7000 RPM. That'll work fine with the first four gears of something like a T56/TR6060, and the final two gears simply drop the revs enough for relaxing on a highway.
On my ZL1, I usually skip around. 1-3-5 works great on the usual suburban and rural two-lanes. More ratios would just get annoying.
I do like the ratio spread of something like the Tremec DCT in the Z06. There are no compromises required with that many options.
I dont know exactly how the MK60 works with its more advanced functions when its not hooked up to the full BMW ECU. I have read that it will do ABS, brake force distribution, and "some" of its more advance functions. One guy says you can dive into a corner under braking still and it will do some magic to keep you from death...
As far as traction control methodology, the Rebel will do % based on wheel slip and can do timing retard as well as pull fuel or a combo of both from what I have been reading. I am not a tuner so that stuff is foreign to me. The guy I think I am going to have tune my car is a road race guy and is currently building a vette with a Rebel LS and a MK60E5 unit. I believe its his first go at it. He told me to stop by later this fall when he has the car done and we can chat. So having a tuner thats experienced with both systems will be a plus.
Fuel and spark cuts are normally associated with rev limiters or other cases where you want to simply make the engine torque go away (fuel in particular is an all-or-nothing proposition; having some but not all of it can be really, really bad). I would try to avoid these events mid-corner because they can be abrupt.
Spark retard works beautifully up to a point, and then it's time to either manage the boost (in a forced induction application) or close the throttle. Trying to determine where these techniques being and end is an art form. You'll definitely need a good tuner to make this stuff work on a track, but it's magical when working properly. It just takes some time to learn how to pin the throttle and trust the computer. Also, going back to a more primitive setup will be challenging once these new habits are formed.
Most of it is black magic to me, but I have been chatting with the Haltech Rebel guys on the facebook group and they say the traction control works really well, but does take a "creep up on it" type of approach.
It sounds like you can dial back the fuel or whatever in conjunction with pulling timing so that you dont run into the "to hot" situation you were describing above... Again black magic for me, but the guy I think I am going to have tune it is a road race guy exclusively and will have a bunch of time learning to tune the exact ECU/ABS I am going to be running so I think it will be pretty solid.
The other guy I have chatted with about tuning it is a high HP drag/street race/mile event tuner... I trust he can tune road course specific builds as well, but who knows.
Fuck me with all this fagot bullshit in this thread.
Home built kit car. You don't need much push when you're 1600 lbs. Titled, registered, insured and street legal.
West prototype
1100 cc Kawasaki 900#
2nd fastest time in the hillclimb
1100 cc Kawasaki 900#
2nd fastest time in the hillclimb
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What kind are you considering? OE Eaton TVS units and their derivatives (Magnuson, Edelbrock, etc.) are typically robust and not too difficult to rebuild if needed. They won't always reveal bearing issues with just a spin by hand, however; I've got an LSA unit on the shelf in my shop that feels fine on the bench but squeals like a pig at idle.
The centrifugal units can be a bit more finicky due to their internal gearbox and tight rotor/housing clearances. If it's not completely trashed, the manufacturer or service centers will rebuild them for several hundred dollars + shipping costs (which can be significant).
Assuming that the blower itself isn't a problem, the other risk is not receiving all the various bits required to mount and drive it off the crankshaft. This stuff can seem simple and then suddenly you're spending a few grand on balancers, idlers, brackets, water pumps, fuel rails, intercooler lids, etc.
No, I was saying that homemade white buggy looks like Kirkland brand Ariel Atom
No, I was saying that homemade white buggy looks like Kirkland brand Ariel Atom
Those guys are built about 20 minutes up the road from me... They used to be on the grounds of VIR but they moved to a bigger facility in the next town. Definitely cool machines!
EDIT: it seems the more I read on studs the common consensus is at least 1-2 threads protrusion from the nut so that tells me the shortest stud is out as my math tells me it will be at least 1 thread down inside the nut. Still open to others opinions.
Here's a question for the more educated/experienced on the topic... I've never messed with studs before.
Building an aluminum Ford 8.8 IRS for my Miata.
Doing what I can to keep any case flex under control so I am putting studs in the carrier caps. ARP makes them and they are only like 35-40 bucks so just an off the shelf part.
The 8.8 stud is 3.125 in length and I was TOLD this is to short for the aluminum case as the caps are different.
I was TOLD that I needed the 9" H case studs which are 3.400 in length.
There is also the regular 9" version which is 3.250 in length.
Well this was what I ended up with with the 3.400 length stud.
Now I didnt torque the stud into the case as I wanted to be able to return them if needed, but I cant imagine I get anything more than 1/4 turn as torque on a stud is only like 10 ft. lbs. And of COURSE the battery on my caliper was dead so I need to grab a battery later. I used a micrometer to eyeball it and its at least .250 long. Nut is also not torqued onto the stud(which would make stud protrusion even worse). So I may end up 1/4 turn further in, but then when torquing simply regain that same 1/4 turn giving me essentially nothing.
Here is the rear cover I will be using(ford performance cobra 8.8)... I dont have one on hand to actually measure for clearance. Just from looking at the picture I ASSUME I have enough clearance for at least the nut sticking out past the case. The caps stick out past the case as it is.
So with these 3.400 being obviously to long. My estimate is .250 to long. Do I go down to a 3.250 stud and have .100 estimated protrusion from the nut? Or do a I go down to a 3.125 and have the stud down in the nut a little bit(estimate .025)?
The other thing i have seen people mention is there is enough hole at the bottom that you can run a bottoming tap another ~1 turns in the hole which I think would eat up ~.07 of my extra .100 length and thus give me only .030 protrusion which is almost nothing.
I can get both other lengths to try, but I would like to avoid needing to do that if I can as returning them is a pain.
Here's a question for the more educated/experienced on the topic... I've never messed with studs before.
Building an aluminum Ford 8.8 IRS for my Miata.
Doing what I can to keep any case flex under control so I am putting studs in the carrier caps. ARP makes them and they are only like 35-40 bucks so just an off the shelf part.
The 8.8 stud is 3.125 in length and I was TOLD this is to short for the aluminum case as the caps are different.
I was TOLD that I needed the 9" H case studs which are 3.400 in length.
There is also the regular 9" version which is 3.250 in length.
Well this was what I ended up with with the 3.400 length stud.
Now I didnt torque the stud into the case as I wanted to be able to return them if needed, but I cant imagine I get anything more than 1/4 turn as torque on a stud is only like 10 ft. lbs. And of COURSE the battery on my caliper was dead so I need to grab a battery later. I used a micrometer to eyeball it and its at least .250 long. Nut is also not torqued onto the stud(which would make stud protrusion even worse). So I may end up 1/4 turn further in, but then when torquing simply regain that same 1/4 turn giving me essentially nothing.
Here is the rear cover I will be using(ford performance cobra 8.8)... I dont have one on hand to actually measure for clearance. Just from looking at the picture I ASSUME I have enough clearance for at least the nut sticking out past the case. The caps stick out past the case as it is.
So with these 3.400 being obviously to long. My estimate is .250 to long. Do I go down to a 3.250 stud and have .100 estimated protrusion from the nut? Or do a I go down to a 3.125 and have the stud down in the nut a little bit(estimate .025)?
The other thing i have seen people mention is there is enough hole at the bottom that you can run a bottoming tap another ~1 turns in the hole which I think would eat up ~.07 of my extra .100 length and thus give me only .030 protrusion which is almost nothing.
I can get both other lengths to try, but I would like to avoid needing to do that if I can as returning them is a pain.
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Oh, gotcha. Yeah, they’re definitely not as polished as an Atom. But they’re also not as priceyNo, I was saying that homemade white buggy looks like Kirkland brand Ariel Atom
Yes, Goblin. One of our supervisors was looking pretty hard at them a few years ago. I’ve looked into them, Ariel, & Exocet quite a bit too. All of these kit cars look so fun
I don't have any familiarity with that brand. I'd start with a call to the US service center and ask how much it'd be for an inspection and teardown/rebuild.
Boosting an S65 sounds awesome - looking forward to hearing how this goes.
On spark ignition engines, normally we run *more* fuel if we're trying to bring down EGTs and protect downstream components. (Those coming from diesel engines will say WTF and argue that things work in the opposite way.) A full fuel cut will simple turn off the cylinder(s). I can imagine an aftermarket ECU dropping single cylinders in this way to manage torque; it has the potential to be obnoxiously loud, and I'd worry about that cylinder getting a whiff of air/fuel mixture from reversion through the intake manifold and going momentary lean. Something to discuss with your tuner.
The drag race crowd has a ton of experience with traction control, but a lot of what they do is based on a combination of time and events since they're able to fairly accurately predict how the car moves off the line and responds to additional power. Obviously road racing is different. I'm not saying that the drag car tuner can't figure this out - they tend to be pretty smart dudes. Much will have to do with what information you can give the ECU - wheel speed, steering angle, ride height at each of the four corners, lateral and longitudinal acceleration, yaw rate, tire temperature, etc. all play a role in developing a robust approach. My experience on the OE side is that a lot of things happen via "feed forward" mechanisms where torque demand is predicted based upon the above inputs, and then there's just a bit of adjustment based upon feedback from actual measurements of wheelspin.
The Rebel is a bit "dumbed down" from the higher end Haltech stuff. While I will have a yaw sensor, from what I know the Rebel doesnt have any functionality for it. All it can do is limit power on a wheel slip % basis. I havent looked through the software for it, but I should probably download it in my tuning laptop and look through it.
I think the guy who does the road course builds and is building a car with the Mk60 and Rebel currently will probably be the better guy to tune the combo. Ill be at a lower HP level than his current build and my car will be lighter, but he should at least know the basics better... AND he's at the track I go to a lot so I could likely pop in and have him adjust things or he could ride around with me or drive the car to get the traction control(and other) tuning dialed in. I think most of the guys with shops at the track can go out anytime they want for testing customer car.