Range Report How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

[McGuyver]

Hello all,

sorry if this is the wrong forum for this, I didn't see a forum listed for internal ballistics, so I posted here.

I have a rifle build in the works and I am considering a chambering in a 6.5mm caliber. Word I have received is that I should look for a cartridge that could accelerate a 140 grain 6.5mm bullet up to around 3000 fps(I'm told this is the best velocity for accuracy for this bullet). I've looked at .260 Reminton, 6.5X47mm Lapua, 6.5 Creedmoor, but they don't seem to be capable of safely being able to get that bullet past 2850 - 2900 fps. The 6.5X55mm Swede seems to have the additional case capacity, but is limited to a low 55(?)ksi max pressure (due to all the old Mausers out there) but my thinking was that if you were going to load this cartridge in a strong modern action, couldn't you safely load it higher, and get to the 3000 fps mark? So why hasn't this cartridge been considered for long range shooting applications? I admit that it requires a long action, and perhaps that, and the pressure limitations I mentioned could be the reason. I would be very interested to get your input on this question.

Thanks.

Edit: I've also considered 6.5-284 Norma, but I'm a little leary of all the claims on short barrel life associated with this chambering, though I'm not entirely clear on the reason. I've heard it has something to do with the hot load eroding the rifling near the throat, but I would think that would be an issue with any hot loaded cartridge...

 

[DocB]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

McGuyver,

Low pressure 6.5 x 55 loads are about 40k psi. Lapua has load data for a 6.5 x 55 in a modern action on their website.

HTH,
DocB

 

[McGuyver]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

Thanks for the reply DocB,

I was just going off a vague recollection of what I saw in Quickload for the Pmax. Nonetheless, I know it was noticeably less than a lot of modern cartridges in the 62+ ksi range.

So can you give me a link to the Lapua loading data page? I did a quick search but haven't found it yet. I'd be interested to see how they revised the numbers for modern rifles...

Edit: hold on, I think I found it:
http://www.lapua.com/en/products/reloading/vihtavuori-reloading-data/relodata/5/98

They list a Pmax of 380MPa ... which converts to ~55 ksi. I guess I had the pressure for modern rifles. Doesn't that still seem a bit low by modern comparison?

So... back to my original question: how bout 6.5X55 swede for long range? Pros? Cons?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

i can't say I recognize what you've been told about the 6.5 with LR capable projectiles and 3000fps being so superior.

My own experience suggests that 2800-2850 works quite respectably. I might even suspect higer velocities as contributing more toward copper fouling and earlier accuracy loss between cleanings.

My own venture into the LR environment has been limited to the .308 Win and the .260 Rem. While I consider each to be adequate to the task, I aslo consider that adequacy to be less than optimal. I have simlar feelings to yours about the 6.5-284.

I have been looking more closely of late at the .280 Rem, essentially a .30-'06 reduced in bore diameter to 7mm. I think it has a far more optimal degree of assertiveness at long distance, and consider the 7mm LR capble bullet choices to have come into their own over the past decade, along with better powders in the suitible burn rate niche. A think a 150gr projectile could be driven comfortably to around 2900fps, and remain clearly supersonic at 1Kyd. Standard 1:9" twists could probably accomodate bullet weights of at least 168gr, and should be as or more effective.

I think it's at least worth your consideration.

Greg

 

[CapDog]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

As it has already been said the 140's only need to really be pushed in the 2800's to do well. I have a 260AI and when I started pushing it hard up to the 3000 range I would get the odd flyer here and there. Probably do to pressure spikes. I backed off to 2900 and it is a much more consistent performer. I have 6.5x55's on old Mauser actions and on a modern Tikka and anywhere from 2700-2850 works.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

Why is that cartridge is not popular ? probably because there are "better" alternatives.

i saw a guy at a 1000y match shooting a 6.5 swede , he didn't do to well but he was using a slightly modified milsurp rifle. I imagine if you built that cartridge around a modern action it would be on par with most 6.5 chamberings. But i dont think you should , there wouldn't be to much load data floating around , it would be wiser to get something popular so you can find and compare load data. I doubt the majority of 6.5 swede reloaders push jlk bullets at all ( im talking about the mil-surp crowd).
I'd go with the 260 , or the 6.5x47 , the load process will go smoother. Especially if your using common barrel lengths.

If your looking for something unique you should do it. You didnt really say what your specific goals are other then long range shooting. If your not looking to shoot past 1000y , i bet you could settle for any velocity greater then 2600 fps and still shoot well. But if you hope to shoot your 6.5 at mile or so, i might want the extra velocity dispite group size , at that distance i would focus on ES/SD rather then group size.But if developing safe reloads is your priority i reccomend buying a pressure trace machine from RSI. I can't say the machine is for everyone.

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

 

[DocB]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

McGuyver,

Q1. Glad you found it.

Q2. No. Well, 6k psi delta for loads is very easily obtained by just primer and seating depth changes.

FYI... My load with 130 gr. Norma DiamondLine bullets runs about 2800 f/s. Shoots bugholes at 100, similar results to 1k at practice, but I've only shot one match and practice, then the changes I made during the match screwed things up for the match. Still well above the trans-sonic zone (1300f/s) at 1k. I've loaded them up to 3k f/s, but I rather have accuracy than velocity.

HTH,
DocB

 

[vharis19]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

I have a savage 110 LH action with a Brux 30" bbl. I am shooting the 6.5 X 55 swede at about 3000 fps using Reloader 17 and approx. 44 grains of powder with a smk 142grain bullet, I have no high pressure signs. Still working on Load development but getting better than 1/2 moa on 5 shot groups. I think that the cartridge is not as popular in the US because you need a long action and the "it wasn't invented here syndrome". It is regularly used in Europe for competition and it uses several grains less powder than the 6.5 X 284 so I expect better barrel life. Great cartridge lots of good brass including Lapua and Winchester, low recoil. Simo Häyhä the Finnish sniper, perhaps the best of all time used the cartridge in World war 2. I shot it in F class competition last year with good results. I expect better results this year, I am changing scopes from my 36X weaver to a Nightforce BR 8-32 with a mildot reticle.

Best regards,

Vharis 19

 

[lessthanfour]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

simo hayha used a mosin nagant which was chambered in a 7.62x54 or atleast i think, and all of his shots were close range. he could have done that with any calibre. i do agree that a 6.5x55 is great though

 

[Jerry m]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lessthanfour</div><div class="ubbcode-body">simo hayha used a mosin nagant which was chambered in a 7.62x54 or atleast i think, and all of his shots were close range. he could have done that with any calibre. i do agree that a 6.5x55 is great though </div></div>

He used a Model 28 Finish version of the Moisin-Nagsnt, and is said to have preferred iron sights, per <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">Sniping an Illustrated History</span></span> by Pat Farey & Mark Spicer.

Good luck

Jerry

 

[McGuyver]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

Thanks for all the good feedback guys. Mallard, that pressure trace set up looks interesting. Real world data based on strain gauge readings for load development. Link said it cost about the same as a decent scope, so I assume it's in the $1500- $2000 range. Might have to put that on my wish list.

So back to the question: if hitting the 3000 fps mark isn't that important, then let's look at this from a dfferent angle. Let me restate (or state them for the first time) my goals.

Requirements:
push a heavy ~140 grain 6.5 mm bullet to 2800+ fps. Needs to be accurate out to 1000 yards or more, and retain a modest amount of energy at that distant (not just a paper puncher) while having a manageable amount of recoil to preserve accuaracy.
Not limited to a short action, (the gun build I have this in mind for will have a Borden custom clone Remington 700 long action). Reloading components (Brass, bullets, primers, powder) need to be readily available for a reasonable price.
If brass is to be made by necking up or down from a parent case, then that brass should be readily available too for a reasonable price.
It would be good to have factory loaded ammo available too. I want reasonably good barrel life (don't want to be wearing barrels out after only 800 rounds). Cartridge can be for a long or short action, standard (.473") or magnum (.532") bolt face (the build I have in the works will be capable of all these configurations with at most a barrel, bolt and lower swap).

For background, I currently shoot .308 Win, and 300 WM. (these chamberings will also be fired from this gun with the above conversions made)

So guys, in your opinions what is the cartridge to fill these requirements?

After a cursory review, here are a few candidates as I see it.
(Not all of which meet all of the above criteria.)

.260 Reminton
6.5X47mm Lapua
6.5 Creedmoor
6.5-284 Norma
6.5X55mm Swede
6.5-06 A square
.25-06 Remington?
.264 Win Mag
6.5 Remington Mag

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

Some folks do well with the 6.5-'06, I consider it borderline overbore for match shooting, and even more so for the .25-'06. This is why I like the .280 Rem for that case capacity.

With the 6.5mm I've been using the .260 and I really like it, but also think the 6.5 would do better with more case capacity. The 6.5-284 probably has more than I'd like, and the 6.5x55 should work better.

But the ones I've seen at 1Kyd F Class didn't seem to perform like I expected. Might have been the shooters. No chambering will work out there unless you work with the wind properly.

Greg

 

[CapDog]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

Of all the requirements you listed both the .260Rem and the 6.5x55 will fit the bill.

Quality Lapua brass is available. They aren't barrel burners and factory ammo can be found, although it maybe a little harder to find the 6.5x55.

 

[steve123]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

My vote is 6.5x47L.

Run the numbers for wind at 1000Y and you'll see that +150 fps won't make any discernible difference.

IMO there are advantages to the PPC sized flash hole that is drilled not punched, small rifle primer, efficient case size dimensions. Any cartridge that has a Lapua headstamp on it is a plus in my book.

IMO, there is no stronger brass made. Lasts seemingly forever. Also with reasonable pressures you'll get decent barrel life.

I had a 6.5-284 once. The barrel lasted 1200 rounds to 1 MOA accuracy including a set back.

If you want more advantage in the wind then it's time to consider 7mm/180's or 30 cal/230's.

 

[Jerry m]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

Most have an action an fit a cartridge to their need, but here go some of MHO:
.260 Remington - Was the last build I did for F class on a short action standard boltface. It was a no brainer after Lapua brass became available. It wasn't a bad choice with Winchester brand 7mm-08 necked down.
6.5X47mm Lapua
6.5 Creedmoor - something to consider if you do not reload or can get someone to buy you ammunition.
6.5-284 Norma
6.5X55mm Swede
6.5-06 A square - I had a 'regular' 6.5-06 Kreiger barrel on a long action that was fantastic. Shot out the barrel and rechambered to .30-06. While not a mistake, I am going to build another 6.5-06 on that action.
.25-06 Remington?
.264 Win Mag
6.5 Remington Mag - Build a 6.5 Rem Mag on a 40X with a magnum bolt face. I am really enjoying this rifle. Shot it last time at a F class without much load development and the results were impressive.

Pick your poison and shoot. Any of these will burn out a barrel quickly enough, some faster than others.

Good luck

Jerry

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

I say go with the Swede, but I am bias. My hand loads only pushing at 2720MV and theres more room to push them faster. I just want this rifle to last for ever. Here's my Swede-

 

[McGuyver]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

Thanks for the input guys.

Well nuts, I'm not any closer to making a decision than I was when I started. Guess that's what you get when you start with too many options.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

McGuyver,

Sad to say somebody planted the "need for speed" bug in your head. You can get 3k out of the .260, 6.5 Creedmoor, or the 6.5x47. But you are going to pay the price in too quick of barrel erosion at that speed. As you already noted, same with the 6.5-.284

The big problem here is bore diameter vs. bullet weight. For that weight in that diameter to get that speed, you are going to burn barrels out no matter what cartridge you pick.

That said, most everyone I know is going with the .260, 6.5 Creedmoor, or 6.5x47 in a long barrel to help with velocity. The long barrel equates to free horsepower. So I suggest you get a 28" or 30" barrel.

The reason I would go with one of the three mentioned above over the 6.5x55 is the taper in the Swede's case. What happens is when there is too much taper, to get to the upper end of pressures, the case walls won't 'grip' the chamber and the case wants to put the full pressure on the bolt. The bolt can handle it, the case head won't take it too well. Loose primer cups, difficult to slide in and out of the shellholder during reloading stages are just the two most glaring problems with trying to get a little more velocity out of this round. I love loading and shooting this round. But, what you mentioned in your first post is exactly why you don't want this round.

My suggestion, is accept what will happen if you keep trying to go 3k with a 140 gr. bullet in a 6.5 chambering. Back your loads down to 2800-2850 and have a long barrel life and exceptional accuracy while doing that. Those bullets have plenty of BC to get you out there competitively at those speeds with no problem.

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

The 6.5x55 AI will put you at 2950 or 3000.

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?


I've been firmly curious about how a good 6.5 Rem Mag would do and it keeps coming up a good performer every time I compare ballistics on paper. You could build it on your mag action, having a switch-barrel with only a coupla tools.
The case is the right length to allow a long bullet loading. This would work well in a long action rifle. The AI/clone magazines should work well.
The case is belted. Therefore I believe the case has needed structural integrity. I've had a lot of recent experience with belted cases and I like loading shooting them. The 6.5RM case has sufficient capacity to propel a heavy bullet fast enough. I think 6.5RM would be hot.

 

[999yards]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

Your accuracy will come from a good barrel.

The 6.5x47, 6.5-284 and the 6.5-06 are solid 1000yd Bench Rest performers.

Nothing wrong with the Swede either.

The other posters are correct about the speed. You don't need 3000fps for the high bc 6.5's

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

I used to look at the paper and dream my dreams about how less time of flight equated to less concern about drift.

If winds were predictable or even reliably visible, this would all make better sense, but this is not the case.

Unless you can make reliable wind calls, there is only an off chance that less TOF will come to your rescue. What it <span style="font-style: italic">will</span> do, every time (and this does not show on the paper), is wither the bore's throat excessively.

Excessively? What's that, you say? Simple, any throat wear that can't be reliably related to accuracy is excessive.

The comment was made that extra bore length equates to free horsepower. True, but it can be alternatively employed to turn down the wick and still get an <span style="font-style: italic">adequate</span> velocity.

Adequate velocity, <span style="font-style: italic">that's</span> the key here. Whatever the velocity, the winds will be the same, and it's wind skill, and not velocity, that will put them into the X. And <span style="font-style: italic">adequate</span> velocity will ensure it does it on, and on, and on, and....

This is why I have stuck with the .260, despite my conviction that more case capacity might help. Mostly, it will help ensure my bore goes South sooner, so that's why I'm still shooting the .260. There are no guarantees that more capacity will buy me any more points on the target.

IMHO the 6.5x55 is an improvement on the .260, but my investment has already been made.

Greg

 

[CoCaDoRi]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

Don't over look the 6.5-06. Easily get you to 3000 fps. I've accomplished this with Bergers, SMK's and the Scenars. All with no pressure signs and could go more if needed. However, at 3K they all one holed.

Barrel life is better than the 6.5X284 because of the long neck of the 06 parent case.

The brass is easily formed simply take 25-06 brass and run it through the die.

Your gonna need a LA anyway so why not go the 6.5-06 route

I shot the 6.5X284 in 1K br comps and I now have the 6.5-06.. it is easily becoming my "go to" and favorite cartridge!

2 groups at 500 meters. 1, 4 shot and 1, 5 shot. this is with my mediocre load of RL22 and the 142 smk at 3000 fps.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

Greg,

I'll agree with you in the respect that the volume of the 6.5x55 allows a bit more slow powder to be used. Therefore, giving a bit more, natural power.

But, my problem with it has been it's just too prone to flattening the butts of cases trying to get the little extra oomph to the next accuracy node. So, down I go to the next lower one. Generally speaking about 2850-2900 with 125-130 gr. bullets in my rifle is max speed. 2800-2850 is generally more accurate. Keep in mind those aren't the 140-142's, they are the lighter ones.

 

[CoCaDoRi]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

To be honest. The rifle I posted above was going to be a Swede...
Then came the realization that 2950-3000 fps wasn't going to happen without some challenges. The 6.5-06 easily gets there.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

Please keep us posted.

Meanwhile, I'll see if I can get the .280 Rem project off the back burner and maybe we can all see how this stuff compares.

Best fortune.

Greg

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please keep us posted.

Meanwhile, I'll see if I can get the .280 Rem project off the back burner and maybe we can all see how this stuff compares.

Best fortune.

Greg </div></div>

The .280 Rem will smoke it.

 

[JWV]

Re: How about 6.5X55mm Swede?

The swede is awesome! I just sold all my Lapua brass and dies for the one I was building. Just fell into a 6.5 blank and am now really pissed I sold all that shit! They are very accurate and can push the 140's at excellent speed. Also, they are some of Lapua's cheapest brass available.