How accurate are M1s/M14s?

[Outerspace]

Sorry for the proliferation here, but I'm trying to get to the bottom of something.

Whenever I have been in an FAL discussion, the M1/M14 people come out of the woodwork and claim that their gun can shoot 1 moa without much problem.

In other discussions (such as the EBR/sniper thread), the AR people come out of the woodwork saying the M1/M14 is a 2.5 moa shooter.

So which is it?

I don't really have a dog in the fight, I just want a 308 DM gun that shoots good, functions good, and fits/handles good. I have a few problems with the AR platform, chronicled in another thread, so I am looking at other options.

It may seem like nitpicking/dead horse beating on my part but I plan on getting something in the next few months, and if the accuracy isn't that great on the M1/M14 then that makes the FAL more attractive. DS ones are pretty darn modular.

To sort of sum up, I'm sure most people have not read my other posts, so I'll reiterate some things so people don't have to ask.

The purpose of my DM gun is for hog hunting, backwoods bear self defense, and a 308 SHTF gun. So looking for something comfortable to carry and shoot, weight not being much of an issue. I'm a big, lean, muscular, strong guy who never understands why people are always fretting about heavy guns.

 

[rifleman1981]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

I have a national match m1a in a McMillan m3a stock with an arms #18 mount that will shoot a half moa at 100 yards all day long with a 168grn sierra matchking and 44grns of varget, an m1a is a very accurate and very effective battle weapon when it is set up correctly, a lot of the poor accuracy claims that haunt the m1a are due to springfields shitty scope mounting system, sadlick, a.r.m.s. and a few other companies make a rock solid mount to cure that problem, but an accurate ar10 is a lot cheaper to set up, as for me though, id go m1a every time if given the choice

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

With good ammo (FGMM or Winchester 168gr BTHP) my SA M1A Bush rifle will print right at 1 MOA for 5 rounds. Many other standard 150gr/168gr loads (Hornady Match, Georgia Arms, Winchester Power-Point, etc) will print around 2 MOA. The rifle hasn't had any accuracy mods performed, and in fact the trigger is both heavy and creepy, so there's definitely room for improvement.

 

[USMC0351Grunt]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

There are tens of 1,000's of dead guys that were shot by Marines that don't have any complaints.

 

[Remoah]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

and tens of thousands killed by the SLR's as well.

 

[gnfiter3]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

Get some of the M-1 guys to tell you if they have had any rod problems. That's suppose to be the most highly talked about mechanical problem. Interesting that a battle rifle would have that issue, but the M-14 didn't see a lot of combat action, compared to the M-1 and of course the AR-15/16 platform.

The press in the past has been, AR's are more accurate, out of the box than M1A's, and take less to keep the accuracy. I'm an AR platform guy, but that's a personal thing. You seem to have an issue with the AR so where does that put you in the hunt?

 

[Bearwalk]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

I'm a big proponent of owning both platforms. Then you can pick and choose for your flavor of SHTF.

That said, I have M14s that will only shoot 2+ MOA, but they are carbines set up for CQB. I also have M14s set up with match/high end components and careful handloads that will shoot about 1 MOA or slightly better.

In bear country though, I trust my Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 to do the job above all else.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

I have owned an AR15, an M1A, and an M1. I was issued and trained with the M-14 and M1. I carried an M-14 for my tour in Vietnam.

When mortgage payments demanded it, I sold some of my serice rifles.

I kept the M-1. It is accurate enough to do anything I need it to do.

Oprod issues are easy to deal with, just keep the loads within reason. My load uses commercial brass, WLR primer, 50.0gr of IMR-4064, and a good 150gr bullet. I would consider 48.0gr of IMR-4064 and a 175SMK to be a good, safe Garand LR load. Both of these loads are straight out of the NRA reprint dealing with the Garand.

Military accuracy standards are not very demanding. My Garand has been glass bedded and will shoot right around 1MOA with my handloads, using irons. For my purposes, that's excellent accuracy.

Greg

 

[Mike Petersen]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

We have built 5030 M14EBR-RIs so far to date and our average MOA is .89. This is with rack grade standard weight barrels but they are all MIL SPEC M14s. M1As due to the tolerance differences may or may not perform as well. Our rejection point is 1.5 MOA and we have only had to reject one rifle so far for exceeding that criteria.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

Outerspace, the M14EBR-RIs EBRbuilder is talking about here are the same rifles
being discussed in the post titled: <span style="font-weight: bold">Marksmen issued better M14 rifles in Afghanistan</span>.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EBRbuilder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have built 5030 M14EBR-RIs so far to date and our average MOA is .89. This is with rack grade standard weight barrels but they are all MIL SPEC M14s. M1As due to the tolerance differences may or may not perform as well. Our rejection point is 1.5 MOA and we have only had to reject one rifle so far for exceeding that criteria. </div></div>

It's clear that the M14/M1A can be very accurate.

 

[DP425]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMC0351Grunt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are tens of 1,000's of dead guys that were shot by Marines that don't have any complaints. </div></div>

Just Marines?

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With good ammo (FGMM or Winchester 168gr BTHP) my SA M1A Bush rifle will print right at 1 MOA for 5 rounds. Many other standard 150gr/168gr loads (Hornady Match, Georgia Arms, Winchester Power-Point, etc) will print around 2 MOA. The rifle hasn't had any accuracy mods performed, and in fact the trigger is both heavy and creepy, so there's definitely room for improvement. </div></div>

Those old Bush rifles a sweet.

 

[NoExpert]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

It's going to depend on a few things... First, who you buy from, current SA Inc. rifles are luck of the draw. You may get a shooter, you may get a warranty case (this applies to all their models). Second, if you buy a custom built rifle such as an LRB or one from SEI it'll depend on how much you want to pay and the parts that go into it. Third, how you want it setup to suit your personal needs will also affect accuracy (not everyone is comfortable with a match rifle).

H2O MAN has a hard on for SEI built rifles and Sage stocks and can probably tell you more about them than most people out there (Lee Emerson/Different may have an edge on him but it'd be close).

If I wasn't in CA I'd probably have a Sage stock, but being in CA I value a detachable magazine over a pistol grip (and the CA compliant Sage stock makes me throw up in my mouth).

If I give my rifle good ammo and do my part it'll hold MOA or better all day. Surplus ammo and shooting rapid... 1.5 to 2 MOA.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

Go to the FAL FEST 2011 if you want to see for yourself.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoExpert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

H2O MAN has a hard on for SEI built rifles and Sage stocks and can probably tell you more about them than most people out there (Lee Emerson/Different may have an edge on him but it'd be close).</div></div>

I probably know more about the SAGE chassis system and SEI builds than most, but Lee is the M14/M1A guru.

 

[AFMarksman]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go to the FAL FEST 2011 if you want to see for yourself. </div></div>

When and where is the FAL Fest?

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AFMarksman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go to the FAL FEST 2011 if you want to see for yourself. </div></div>

When and where is the FAL Fest?

</div></div>

NRA Whittington Center; generally the Friday/Saturday/Sunday prior to the Memorial Day weekend.

Check the FAL Files web site for details.

 

[Prairie Dog Dundee]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

Top photo M1A NM Super Sniper 3-9 500 yards. Second photo fired with LMT MWS Super Sniper 3-9. Yellow target 500 yards, 5 rounds 3.75. White target 300 yards rapid fire. Paper target 100 yards. Bottom photo the rifles. My old FAl could not come close to matching the accuracy of either of these.




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[gnfiter3]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

Greg reminds me of what we Army guys say about artillery. He, "Lends Dignity to what would otherwise be, a vulgar brawl." Thanks for the insight on that operating rod issue.

Now Greg, is it true or not, M1A's require more to make them shoot as well as an AR platform and require more to keep them running accurately?

 

[cal50]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

Own both and love both~

Both rifles are great battle rifles and I give the advantage to the FAL for pure battle rifle. The M14 is similar to the 1911 platform. Its great as is but CAN be built into a multi role weapon with greater accuracy potential more easily than a FAL.
Its no secret how to properly set up a M14 to shoot accurately. You can dump a lot of money into it to make it work and requires small re-tuning along the way to maintain that level of accuracy.

I have a Para FAL and its on par accuracy wise with my M1A. Now my Garand in .308 with a Krieger barrel is another story...

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

The answer (in general) is 'yes' to both, but that still doesn't cause me to favor the AR's.

With the AR's I think the critical issue is barrels. With the M14/M1A, I think it's about bedding (and maybe scope mounts, but I don't consider a scope to be a proper sight for a service rifle).

Bedding isn't applicable with AR's, and critical with the M1/M1A/M14. Loads are equally important, whichever the platform.

Greg

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

Most modern M14 stocks do an excellent job of addressing bedding the action and the mounting of optics.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

I'm going to have to disagee with the ideal that the M14/M1A takes a lot of "tuning" to keep them up to par.

If set up right, in the NM configeration, they last. The problem is people taking them out of the stocks. My M1A was converted to a Super Match in the late 70s, early 80s by Gene Barnett (Barnett barrels).

I shot it pretty hard since then. I shot out a couple barrels and stretched out some slings, other then that there has been zero problems of it holding up.

When I was running the AK NG Rifle team, I refused to allow any of my shooters to remove the action from the stock. We had a NM Armor for that if it was deamed necessary, therefore we didnt have any problems.

A couple years ago, the NRA had an article about the M21s in Vietnam. These rifles held up better, and spent less time in the maintance shops then the Marine's M-40.

The orginal STEEL mounts used on the 60-70 era M21s held up pretty dern good. I dont recall ever loosing a zero taking my scope/mount off the rifle and putting it back on again.

If the (wood) stock is set up right, it holds up just as well as any of the plactic stocks you find today.

Granted, lots of people like the Tacti-cool stuff today, but its cosmetics more then anything else. I've shoot mine in some pretty heavy rainstorms and had water pouring out of of the stock but it held its zero. In fact using the same amnmo, my zero hasnt changed since Gene Barrnett put the gun together some 30 years ago.

I have nothing against the ARs. I'll admit, that with someone else, my White Oak AR Service rifle witll out shoot my Super Match. I can't do it but thats probably because my M1A has a 30+ year head start, meaning I'm use to it.

But to answer the orginal question, they are accurate, and they are reliable.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to have to disagee with the ideal that the M14/M1A takes a lot of "tuning" to keep them up to par.</div></div>

That is one of those internet urban legends that has a life of it's own.

 

[Tactical]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

All the accuracy issues I had with M14s came from bedding issues. The original bedding compound was Micro Bed and that stuff wore out in a couple of months. Steel bed lasted several years.

With that said I bolted an Old Shot to Poop Super Match whos bedding had gone and rifle was only shooting 1-1.5 moa into a JAE stock several years ago. It went down to honest all day .75 moa rifle, with many groups in .50 range in the JAE Stock. That stock grabs the legs of the M14 rec and holds by torque so its repeatable. Now that stock was a Scope only set up. I hear the generation two JAE's are great for scopes and iron sights but I have never seen them, so n o first hand knowledge.

I have handled the Sage but never used one so no idea what that stock does.

The main issue for accuracy in a M14 is the way the rifle is held in the stock. If that can be fixed like JAE has it works very well. I know Smith has done alot of work getting stocks to work better but no first hand experience with them.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I have handled the Sage but never used one so no idea what that stock does.</div></div>

The SAGE gives you repeatable tension bedding and it semi free floats the barrel ahead of the proprietary op rod guide block. It also properly aligns the gas port and makes the gas system repeatably tight. SAGE accomplishes this with less moving parts and with less of a weight penalty when compared with the JAE.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All the accuracy issues I had with M14s came from bedding issues. The original bedding compound was Micro Bed and that stuff wore out in a couple of months. Steel bed lasted several years.</div></div>

I had the same ideal, though I never had a glass job fail. I dug into my 50 cal de-armor gear and came out with some nickle powder that I mix with the glass. Seams to eliminate the "pure glass" problems.

 

[marduk185]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

as someone whos tried all of the usual suspects id answer your question like this...
if your gonna scope it go m1a or ar10. if its gonna wear irons or a dot sight totally recommend FAL.
just know goin into it that m1a accuracy seems to be luck of the draw. ive had loaded's do 1 moa out of the box and seen highly accurized m1a's that couldnt do 2moa. sort of hit and miss. find a good shooter and youre golden.

 

[cal50]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

My only complaint with a stock M1A is the standard weight wood stock. Its damn thin by the mag well. I had a nice looking walnut standard weight stock that had a hair line crack in that area new out of the box. Since I planned on putting my action in a McMillan stock I gave the wood stock a firm tap on the butt side ways and it opened the crack right up. IMHO the standard weight wood stocks are firewood. As to bedding, the later receivers like the double lugged help give a larger bedding surface and should hold up better. Mine is a standard receiver in the McMillan and zero issues with Marine Tex bedding. The only maintenance needed might be a "skim bed" from round count. Once you unitize the gas system (NM mod) and do the other NM mods your good to go.

 

[Lajon1s]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

If you want accuracy you can just use a GI fiberglass stock and that is better than bedding it and cheaper most of the time. you can remove it for cleaning as much as you like. Shim or unitize the gas system and a trigger job you are good. If you want to go all a match grade barrel.

 

[NRAShooter]

Re: How accurate are M1s/M14s?

I am dating myself, but the old NM standard M14 was 4 inchs at 600 yards with M852 Lake City ammo. I've had McMillan or custom walnut stocked stocked, no lug, single and double lugged, Barnett, Kreiger, Hart, and Schneider barreled M1A/M14 rifles all shoot. Still have a bunch of those rifles which I am someday going to sell as I never shoot them.