How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

#51
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

Well...I don't know if anyone here has been to a highpower event, but if you watch, you will see some very spectacular results.

As far as I am concerned though, a rifle is accurate if the bullets go where I pointed them, and the performance is predictable from day to day. I had a rifle that would always send the 14th shot in my string high and right...but it did it consistently on that shot.
 
#52
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jv101</div><div class="ubbcode-body">kind of get what im asking at all?</div></div>I think your question has been answered: we're not saying it doesn't happen; we're saying that whether or not it can be done selectively, on occasion, is not the issue.

As the top competitive shooters, with top-flight gear, have proven time and time again: Shooting well is not about what you HAVE, it's about what you can DO with what you have.

Let's stop ignoring bad shots and poor groups while keeping the better ones as examples of how good a rifle we have. Instead, let's start paying attention to our bad shots and flyers in an attempt to spot - and fix - our errors.
 
#53
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jv101</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HA

well what i am kind of asking is 1/2 MOA at 100 yards isnt complete bull shit for a varmit style AR now is it?

i mean 1/2 MOA at 600+ yards seems like BS to me, is it possible? sure people can do it!

kind of get what im asking at all? </div></div>

Noone can tell you what your gun should be able to do, esp online.
Without being a prick, may I reference you to the bottom line of my signature?
 
#54
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HomeOnTheRange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a rifle that would always send the 14th shot in my string high and right...but it did it consistently on that shot.</div></div>Perhaps YOU were doing it consistently on that shot; not the rifle.

Otherwise, I would have one rifle that shoots a flyer every 174th shot and another that puts every sixty-fifth shot 1 MOA high - but something tells me that conclusion does not pass for good police work.
wink.gif
 
#55
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm really not a good one to ask, as the only group shooting I do is checking a load. I can't shoot groups for crap and don't really bother much. 3/4 minute at 100 is about the best it gets with me shooting really good rifles. I can get a great group every once in a while........

I prefer to shoot one round each at 3/4 inch dots at 100. If the rifle and I can hit them 75% of the time I consider it good to go.

1/2moa groups "all day long" are in my opinion internet bullshit.

</div></div>

You know, if i do my job. I will get .5MoA out of my Accuracy Speaks. And that no Internet BS. But i have to say again, IF I DO MY JOB ie thats to about the 500 yard mark slow fire
 
#56
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alaskaman 11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...will get .5MoA out of my Accuracy Speaks. And that no Internet BS. But i have to say again, IF I DO MY JOB ie thats to about the 500 yard mark slow fire</div></div>Roach, when he was at GAP, used to offer a 3/8 guarantee. Nobody I knew ever locked their rifle into a machine rest at 100, shot a 1/2" group, then sent the rifle back dissatisfied.
grin.gif


Post your best group, as long as it's a 500 yard 10 or 5 shot group that measures less than 2.6". I'll wait.
 
#57
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

Could be...Could Be.

I am by no means a .5MOA shooter though, maybe a 1MOA on a good day for a period of time. I is still learning, but I have come a long way from where I started. Should have seen how funny the whole right upper lip swolen like a grape from biting the back of my M1 Garand. I couldn't talk right for a day. Amazingly, I somehow kept it in the black.
 
#58
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

I was varyfing my load with MIL hash marks last week. Shot at 200, 265, 310, 365, and 410 (3-shot groups) with a Noveske barreled SPRish build. Using a bipod and rear rest it averaged .75 MOA. I was very pleased with the results. I feel that trigger pull, natural point of aim and follow through are more important with an AR.
 
#59
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

Understand the original posters problem. Add up the parts to build and SPR rifle and you can easily spend $2000.00 or more. Would you be satisfied with 1 MOA with a $2000.00 AR when you could spend 1/3 that with the same results? I wouldn't.

For the original poster, if you talked to the guys at Crane they would tell you that while they were tracking and keeping records testing/building SPR's, the average was 1 MOA w/ the Douglas SS barrel. That might make you feel better. It's a fact.

I've built both versions MK 12 MD 0 and MK 12 MD 1. Here's the MD 1:



 
#60
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crossgun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
18" Krieger 1x7.7 Heavy Barrel
</div></div>

Have You checked it?

Procedure is pretty easy:
Cast about 2.5 x caliber dia lead plug, tap it tight and pull it thru barrel.
 
#61
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

I have an 18" WOA barreled SPR. Last time out I finally found a load that will print well. I shot three 5-shot groups at 100 yds that were: .623", .723", .495". I had fired 5 groups, but messed up and put two 5-shot groups into the same target square. That was over MOA, but I don't even know if I used the same aim point since they were the first and fifth group fired.

I'll be going out again in a few weeks to try again and see if I can repeat.
 
#62
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

What was the load that would print well that you are referring to that would print well with your WOA barrel?

BTW all, WOA is 18-22 weeks on SPR barrel orders, and these are Match Grade Wilson 1/8 twist barrels.
 
#63
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

I had been shooting 24.0 and 24.5 gn Varget in Winchester brass for a while and couldn't get any better then about a .9" average.

I settled on a 77 SMK in Winchester brass with a CCI-400, 24.2 gn Varget, seated to mag length.
 
#65
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alaskaman 11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joker59</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dont know about yours but I can shoot mine out to 960 with no problems with open sight bone stock govt. model shoot 62 gr. at 3400fps </div></div>

I would like to see the load data on this, a 62 at 3400 fps?!? do the primers fall out of the pockets after you fire them, I have been loading 223 for the better part of ten years, I have tried almost every combo of powders there is. I have never got a 55 over 3300 in a 26inch rig. I would believe that with a 45 grain bullet, but not a 62. More likely you will get 2900 maybe 3000 out of them. </div></div>

I've gotten 3400fps from my AR15 16" Bushmaster upper, but this was shooting Black Hills Match Red Box 40gr V-MAX. I'd be really surprised if these numbers were from anything heavier than 40gr.
 
#66
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

I've gotten 3400fps from my AR15 16" Bushmaster upper, but this was shooting Black Hills Match Red Box 40gr V-MAX. I'd be really surprised if these numbers were from anything heavier than 40gr


yep, i can do that too, you might be able to get them a bit hotter, but there is no way a 60 gr pill is going 3400 fps (unless its was stuffed into a 22-250. :0P
 
#68
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

Hey all, first post here!

I find my SPR to shoot about .7 MOA (at 100yd) pretty regularly, and .5 MOA on occasion, and with a load it really likes. Now, this is in hands of a better shooter, and when i had better glass on it.
 
#69
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What was wrong with the mod0 that made them change to the mod1? Are they both as accurate or is one more accurate than the other?</div></div>

Think it had something to do with a maintenance/service easier or had some advantage with KAC FF over PRI. KAC FF also lightened the rifle by about a 1.0 lb. No reports I've heard of any differences in accuracy. Heavier for a precision rifle can be an advantage, and personally having owned both the handling characteristics of the PRI version (i.e., Mod 0 to me are better -- it just feels better.

Now for the original poster (OP) I just reviewed an old article entitled "The Accurate AR by some AR guru, and here's an excerpt:"

"The Tube, The Twist. Assuming no glaring errors were committed in the construction of the rifle, if your AR-15 doesn't shoot well, it's the barrel....I expect my competition AR-15s to group under five inches at 600 yards, around two at 300 and under one at 200 and that's prone with optical assistance."

OP,I'd say in general if the bullets don't go where you want them you could have:

1) Mechanical problem
2) Operator problem
3) Ammunition problem
4) Force of Nature problem (i.e., wind)

Sometimes it's one of the 4, other times it's several in combination. Noone on this board can tell you what the problem is, only what it could be. Your options with your rifle are:

1) Sell it
2) Live with it
3) Continue to troubleshoot the problem yourself
4) Send it to have it evaluated by a reputable builder
 
#70
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

Thanks. This is exactly what I was wanting to know. I've been wanting to build a clone, but have been having a hard time deciding whether to go with the Mod 0 or Mod 1. This helps a lot.
 
#72
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MedCpt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What was the load that would print well that you are referring to that would print well with your WOA barrel?

BTW all, WOA is 18-22 weeks on SPR barrel orders, and these are Match Grade Wilson 1/8 twist barrels. </div></div>


WOA SPR 18" barrels are 1 in 7" twist! I ordered mine from Rainer and had it in a week, luck I guess???
 
#73
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

The chamber makes a difference, if you're running a .223 or .223 Wylde chamber with .223 Match ammunition, you're going to see better accuracy than shooting .223 Match in a 5.56 chamber. This is a fact, you're creating a "hot dog down a hallway" scenario with the .223 in a 5.56 chamber.

Initial testing with my Shilen 1:8" SPR barrelled build is showing accuracy potential around .75"@100.

Keep in mind also, a lot of the best shooting from bolt guns is with tight chambers and/or neck-sized brass, neither of which are friendly to the reliability of an AR-based gun.

3/4 MOA should not be out of the question, I know of one builder who builds 1/4" AR's consistently, it has to do with how the uppper is built, and cannot be done by simply sticking on a barrel out of a catalog.

-matt
 
#74
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

Last thing you want to do is "slug the barrel".

DO NOT screw around driving or pulling anything more than a cleaning rod through your barrel

I would try another float tube, install it with a known torque value, and not lean on it with a cheater bar.

Factory "match" ammunition is second-best. You have $5k in your rifle, you ought to be handloading your ammo. Try some 69gr and 77gr Nosler and Sierra bullets, IF you can find any! If for some reason you have a military/5.56mm chamber; you are getting Excellent results!

You got the best trigger made. Are you sure it is breaking at 3lbs or whatever you expect? Got a recording trigger-pull gauge to check?

I don't get the heavy scope, and stock on an AR-15?

If you are shooting off sandbags, the quadrail forend is not a good choice. The best forend for a bench-rested AR-15 or 10, is probably the Badger Stabilizer handguard. Smooth and flat on the bottom, nothing to grab a bag or resist/bind the rifle in recoil.

If you can find some different weight match bullets, give them a try. With a kinetic bullet puller and a seating die, you could try different oal for your ammo, or make Mexican-Match. M-M is pulling the bullet and subbing another of similar bullet weight. You can substitute a 77gr Sierra or Nosler for a 75gr Hornady, but try reseating your 75gr to 2.255" or as long as your mags will take and still feed reliably.

You really need to be handloading before giving up on your rifle.
 
#75
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swamper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Last thing you want to do is "slug the barrel".

DO NOT screw around driving or pulling anything more than a cleaning rod through your barrel
</div></div>

Can you please explain, how lead casting would harm barrel?
 
#76
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

Took may AR out today and shot her at 300 yards with some black hills 68gr match. Granted its not a SPR, but still, got 2.7" 5 shot group at 300 yards, which can probably be tightened up a bit with a better shooter!!

glad i spend the extra $$$ on some match ammo!
 
#77
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

Yes CMONROE, I stand corrected 18" 1:7 twist on WOA Armament SPR Barrels, not 1:8.

I heard however that the actual SPR 1:8 twist prototype barrels actually shot a little better though than the 1:7 twist which they finally settled on, don't know any more details on that (i.e., ammo).
 
#78
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

sprgxr4.jpg

By tman300wm, shot with Canon PowerShot SD900 at 2009-01-07

Here is my 18" Kreiger 1:7, SPR built on a VLTOR upper, Troy 13.5 Forearm Rail, Stag Lower, RR NM 2 stage trigger. I'm getting very respectable groups at out to 300 yards with PPZ 62gr SS109. I would say the rifle is holding at just under 1 moa or at 100yards.

At a sniper team match this last summer, my shooting partner/spoter ran this rifle with the 62gr SS109 ammo. He shot a course of fire that consisted of a moving torso at 300 yards. He scored a considerable number of head shots at that range (well more than half his shots). I'd say that's pretty respectable for a gas rifle. But I'm inclined to think it was more the man behind the rifle.
 
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#79
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

Here is a sample of what we build...

rssup.jpg


This is a pic of a group sent to us by one of our customers. It's kind of hard to tell in the pic but that's a dime next to the group. This is a 5 shot 100 yard group and it's about the mechanical average for this series of guns.

rstarget.jpg


The AR10 is definitely capable of supreme accuracy. The key is don't compromise on quality or components.

Mike
www.extremefirepower.com
 
#80
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

BCR #226 that's impressive. The SPR's (MK 12, MD 0,1) are 5.56mm. Does your company also have AR configurations in 5.56mm and same accuracy as your AR10 7.62?

For the group, don't know if anybody else has had this experience or any idea what causes, but I've seen AR gas guns that could make a ragged hole, but for no explainable reason (i.e., pulled shot, wind gust, or similar) would send maybe one of the rounds in what otherwise would have been a spectacular grouping off a couple of inches like a flyer, and this was repeatable. ? Seen this in couple of SPR's and heard about it with Mk 11 Md 0's...


 
#81
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MedCpt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BCR #226 that's impressive. The SPR's (MK 12, MD 0,1) are 5.56mm. Does your company also have AR configurations in 5.56mm and same accuracy as your AR10 7.62?

For the group, don't know if anybody else has had this experience or any idea what causes, but I've seen AR gas guns that could make a ragged hole, but for no explainable reason (i.e., pulled shot, wind gust, or similar) would send maybe one of the rounds in a spectacular grouping off a couple of inches like a flyer, and this was repeatable. ?


</div></div>

Sure, it's the same basic platform and the same methodology applies. The biggest problem right now is getting parts from our suppliers. Of the components we manufacture in house, it's no issue of course but man, getting receivers and other parts is a pain in the butt. We don't have a work sheet up on our site at the moment due to the price swings and availability of parts but I will take calls on the 5.56/.223 platform.

Flyers can be caused by a myriad of reasons. It can be anything from wind, variation in powder charge, bullet seating depth, or the loose nut behind the trigger. If you are getting repeating flyers as you describe, get a mechanical rest and test the gun to see if there is an issue with it or if it's something you may be doing.

Mike
 
#83
Your barrel maybe loose got damaged or have a rare factory defect. Have you verified the twist rate?. My accuracy goes up from bags as apposed to bipod probably some fault of my own.

 
#85
quantim0 said:
Re: How Accurate can an AR SPR really be?

I have an 18" WOA barreled SPR. Last time out I finally found a load that will print well. I shot three 5-shot groups at 100 yds that were: .623", .723", .495". I had fired 5 groups, but messed up and put two 5-shot groups into the same target square. That was over MOA, but I don't even know if I used the same aim point since they were the first and fifth group fired.

I'll be going out again in a few weeks to try again and see if I can repeat.
Click to expand...

Those are some pretty impressive results. May I ask what load you're using?
 
#86
IMAG1230.jpgIMAG1809.jpg I had an SPR style Barnes Precision rifle a while back with an 18" 223 wylde barrel. Best groups i got with it were about .75" moa. The last SPR i had, and recently traded off (still kicking myself in the ass for that one!) was built with JP and Odin Works components and i was able to put 10 rds into about .60" at 100 yds. Granted, that was the best i had shot with that rifle and factory 77gr match ammo. They'd always be good for 1 moa groups, lots of times closer to .75 moa, always using factory ammo from the 69-77gr weight bullets.
 
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#87
I have a similar setup, Fulton Armory with a 20" Krieger 1:7.75 and Geissle trigger. It can (windless day) shoot about 1/2 MOA @ 100 Yds with 77 SMKs. 69s or 75s were about 1 MOA but 77 SMKs work great. Technically I am cheating with the extra 2" on an SPR :)
 
#88
The rifle while on coyote patrol,
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i84.photobucket.com\/albums\/k38\/jpedzinski\/Mobile%20Uploads\/1478492092.jpg"}[/IMG2]

18 inches of 6.5 grendel, JP light weight barrel
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i84.photobucket.com\/albums\/k38\/jpedzinski\/Mobile%20Uploads\/1466733764.jpg"}[/IMG2]

the load, 26.8gr AR-comp with 123 Scenar's seated 2.24" loaded on fired brass.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i84.photobucket.com\/albums\/k38\/jpedzinski\/Mobile%20Uploads\/1469758059.jpg"}[/IMG2]
This on a clean and cold bore and first two were the only ones in the 2430's

On a different day... Cold bore at 300 on a 8" plate...

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i84.photobucket.com\/albums\/k38\/jpedzinski\/Mobile%20Uploads\/IMG_20160914_120712_102-1.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Three on a 600y plate after the cold bore shot.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i84.photobucket.com\/albums\/k38\/jpedzinski\/Mobile%20Uploads\/IMG_20160914_125536_931-1.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Five at a grand testing pointed Lapua's
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i84.photobucket.com\/albums\/k38\/jpedzinski\/Mobile%20Uploads\/1474398000.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Same load but with 123 A-max at 100
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i84.photobucket.com\/albums\/k38\/jpedzinski\/Mobile%20Uploads\/1474308647.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Thats my DMR/SPR submission.
 
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#91
My opinion. An exceptional SPR / RECCE would be 3/4 MOA with factory match ammo, even with match components.The norm? Right at 1 MOA. Just a lot more variables and moving parts with gas guns. Excellent barrels don't change those variables.
 
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#93
I have a BCM ss410 that does right about moa. I've tried to get it sub and continue to work up different loads but nothing better than that yet. My bolt gun is 1/2 all day long. I also wonder if it's the shooter because it's a very different animal with the recoil impulses.
 
#94
I'm going to do the explanation no justice but one major difference between a bolt gun and a gas gun is the trigger lock time. The hammer has to fall much further in an AR giving more time for error from when you pull the trigger and to when the round actually fires. I'm not sure how true it is but it makes sense to me. Also like rerun said there are several differ t recoil impulses in an AR vs one in a bolt gun
 
#95
Mk12Mod1 HCS upper, KAC lower, Ops Inc suppressor, NF 2.5-10x24

Mk262 shoots around 1 MOA out of it.

With 24.5 RL15, CCI primers, 77g Sierra TMK and Federal NATO brass I get 2815FPS and .5-.75 5 shot groups.
 
#99
To be honest, the semi auto thread probably doesn't need an eight year old post either. This is just part of the fun in coming back home. Like finding old toys in your parents attic.
 
#100
Toys in the attic Aerosmith 1975, good stuff.
So this old thread new to some is helping some expectations of newbies get grounded at the least.
Snipers hide has helped me a lot, i have no mentors.
So my bucket list is to perfect the toys in my attic for my family.
JGM. BAlisic calculator was a good find today for g1 to g7 conversions.
 
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