Range Report How can a rifle shoot poorly at 100 but well at 1000?

[Diver160651]

Perhaps this is why we so often struggle to print small groups at close range as we point our rifles off here or there at what we think is the center of our target when it is actually a slight bit somewhere else.

WTF does this mean?

Who often struggles to print small groups at 100y, other than people with poor fundamentals or crap gear?

Perhaps our 5/8 MOA rifle at 100 yards is really a 3/8 MOA rifle with 1/4 MOA light refraction problem.

Do understand that if you're shooting the same day and time across the same type of terrain, that optical displacement is more significant with distance, right?

Some people do shoot more consistently when they can not see the target as well, and it is a mental thing, a training issue.

Yes, I have shoot several rounds where the impacts are almost touching at ELR distances, but it is an anomaly, maybe it was a .5moa miss, and the wind blew it closer, as one-offs, but the depth people go to make themselves feel better, is nuts.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I dont disagree...95% of my matches I get my squad bitching of wind jumps and light position and all this bullshit...yet my dope and calls arent off and they say something must be off for me. No one wants to blame themselves...always gear, bullets, light, wind swirls...you name it.

the internet is the best and worst for fucking information. honestly its like the hide is getting overrun by the campfire forum people.

Been trying to give benefit of the doubt peoples side without coming off like too much of a dick while disagreeing.

That’s the cycle. When one discipline starts becoming popular, it brings the fudds with it.

All the uspsa, black rifle, etc etc shooters moving to PRS.

I’m sure they see the same shit. Some prs shooter comes over to their discipline and starts talking some weird shit about pistols that’s patently wrong.

Also, be a dick. It’s more fun that way.

 

[Steel head]

So, let me get this straight.

Some people think a bullet is unstable at closer ranges.

Yet that bullet can somehow follow a predictable path that we can dope and use every time?

Am I getting this correct???

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Shooter error; possibly. But are we looking at the right place the error is occurring?

I scanned through the entire topic, and I don't recall seeing the word parallax.

Maybe the error isn't about ballistics; maybe it's about optics.

If a scope is corrected for parallax at 1000yd, and left at that when shooting 100yd; will the shooting outcome at 100yd explain this outcome? When accuracy varies this dramatically at different distances without an explanation, my mind goes to parallax.

If parallax is properly corrected at both distances, then never mind; I don't have a clue.

Inquiring minds, etc...

Greg

 

[Dthomas3523]

Shooter error; possibly. But are we looking at the right place the error is occurring?

I scanned through the entire topic, and I don't recall seeing the word parallax.

Maybe the error isn't about ballistics; maybe it's about optics.

If a scope is corrected for parallax at 1000yd, and left at that when shooting 100yd; will the shooting outcome at 100yd explain this outcome?

Inquiring minds, etc...

Greg

Shit. I meant to add that in my last post about occam.

Shooters often times overlook parallax at closer distances.

And many times, unless the rifle is very stable, the parallax error is hard to actually notice.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I dont disagree...95% of my matches I get my squad bitching of wind jumps and light position and all this bullshit...yet my dope and calls arent off and they say something must be off for me. No one wants to blame themselves...always gear, bullets, light, wind swirls...you name it.

the internet is the best and worst for fucking information. honestly its like the hide is getting overrun by the campfire forum people.

Been trying to give benefit of the doubt peoples side without coming off like too much of a dick while disagreeing.

if people started taking a bunch of rifles to the range on the same trips theyd see the rifle systems aint as reliable as most people want to believe either

 

[Lowlight]

So if we all agree that the bullet is not coming back toward center somehow, then we must logically explore what other possible effects could explain such a result.

I eluded to it earlier, but light is refracted by humidity in the air and that can (and usually does) cause the target to appear in different places at different times. Obviously its not actually moving, just the image of it is.

Perhaps this is why we so often struggle to print small groups at close range as we point our rifles off here or there at what we think is the center of our target when it is actually a slight bit somewhere else.

To explain groups improving at longer ranges, possibly this refracted light effect has a way of averaging out at increased distances, but at close range, it moves more quickly.

This might also explain why shooting from a clamped rifle disproves this effect as a bullet flight phenomena, yet when manually aiming the rifle this effect is often noted.

Perhaps our 5/8 MOA rifle at 100 yards is really a 3/8 MOA rifle with 1/4 MOA light refraction problem.

IT'S NOT ME, IT'S NOT ME, IT'S NOT ME

Anything but me, phantom fog, swamp gas, lights in the sky ...

Please don't let it be me

 

[Tokay444]

The short, direct answer is, it can't. A shooter can, but a rifle cannot.

 

[PracticalTactical]

Refraction moving the target.

AKA... no its not me. Its physics.

Jump to 4:20

A guy who simply shoots plate size targets would dismiss movement this small, but an F Class guy or bench rest guy obsesses about it.

 

[nick338]

Refraction moving the target.

AKA... no its not me. Its physics.

Jump to 4:20

A guy who simply shoots plate size targets would dismiss movement this small, but an F Class guy or bench rest guy obsesses about it.

But that would have more of an effect on a target at longer range, thus increasing the group size not decreasing it.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

Refraction moving the target.

AKA... no its not me. Its physics.

Jump to 4:20

A guy who simply shoots plate size targets would dismiss movement this small, but an F Class guy or bench rest guy obsesses about it.

Thats mirage...heat vapor, same deal as if you look at something through water.

thats a condition to shoot in, adjustments can be made for impacts but you are right you arent shooting groups for that. Best bet is dial back power at any distance and adjust in the direction the mirage is coming from. Groups will suffer regardless.

Also, at this point were into environmentals which no one denies having an impact on shooting/bullets. the trajectory of a bullet is constant though and will not do weird shit just because it feels like it for a few yards then decided it wants to get its act together and be accurate again.

 

[Lowlight]

Refraction moving the target.

AKA... no its not me. Its physics.

Jump to 4:20

A guy who simply shoots plate size targets would dismiss movement this small, but an F Class guy or bench rest guy obsesses about it.

Pathetic

Can't admit it's him ...

Mirage work with distance and magnification, LOL

What a tool

 

[PracticalTactical]

But that would have more of an effect on a target at longer range, thus increasing the group size not decreasing it.

Or, Perhaps it just averages out and has proportionately less of an effect as distance increases. Maybe it's more stable more of the time at longer ranges.

I've seen the whole lights up sights up thing during F Class events. It's like synchronized swimming out there. Guys are banging away on the V Bull and then a cloud rolls over the range and suddenly most guys start popping high in the 5 ring. Then back to the V Bull for a while, and then the cloud rolls away and everyone starts hitting low in the 5 ring for a while, then back to the V Bull.

Guys who get it, know to hold off for light changes.

Guys who don't, catch 5s.

I have enough gold medals on the wall to know that most of you guys are FOS. You shoot large steel plates, not a 1/2 MOA bull. You feel confident because you hit a toilet lid out there.

More of you guys should get off your high horses and go shoot Commonwealth style F Class for a while.... Not the pussy foot single string chase the spotter bullshit they shoot in the states. You might learn something.... ahh forget it... you wont.

 

[Lowlight]

Or, Perhaps it just averages out and has proportionately less of an effect as distance increases.

I've seen the whole lights up sights up thing during F Class events. It's like synchronized swimming out there. Guys are banging away on the V Bull and then a cloud rolls over the range and suddenly most guys start popping high in the 5 ring. Then back to the V Bull for a while, and then the cloud rolls away and everyone starts hitting low in the 5 ring for a while, then back to the V Bull.

Guys who get it, know to hold off for light changes.

Guys who don't, catch 5s.

You need to be banned for the continued promotion of stupidity

You are not smart enough to continue posting in this thread

 

[Dthomas3523]

You need to be banned for the continued promotion of stupidity

You are not smart enough to continue posting in this thread

Guess he probably shouldn’t send the tent stake bipod to you for a review?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Or, Perhaps it just averages out and has proportionately less of an effect as distance increases. Maybe it's more stable more of the time at longer ranges.

I've seen the whole lights up sights up thing during F Class events. It's like synchronized swimming out there. Guys are banging away on the V Bull and then a cloud rolls over the range and suddenly most guys start popping high in the 5 ring. Then back to the V Bull for a while, and then the cloud rolls away and everyone starts hitting low in the 5 ring for a while, then back to the V Bull.

Guys who get it, know to hold off for light changes.

Guys who don't, catch 5s.

I have enough gold medals on the wall to know that most of you guys are FOS. You shoot large steel plates, not a 1/2 MOA bull. You feel confident because you hit a toilet lid out there.

More of you guys should get off your high horses and go shoot Commonwealth style F Class for a while.... Not the pussy foot single string chase the spotter bullshit they shoot in the states. You might learn something.... ahh forget it... you wont.

I get most of my loading a lot of my shooting advice from a guy who would laugh at your “gold medals.” He probably has more than that in his bedside drawer.

I promise he won’t agree with much or anything you say.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, those guys ain’t stopping their load development at 100yds when a cloud comes over.

You’re trying to use techniques used at distance as examples of bad groups at short range.

 

[Bender]

Wow. I thought we killed this in 2014

 

[nick338]

Or, Perhaps it just averages out and has proportionately less of an effect as distance increases. Maybe it's more stable more of the time at longer ranges.

I've seen the whole lights up sights up thing during F Class events. It's like synchronized swimming out there. Guys are banging away on the V Bull and then a cloud rolls over the range and suddenly most guys start popping high in the 5 ring. Then back to the V Bull for a while, and then the cloud rolls away and everyone starts hitting low in the 5 ring for a while, then back to the V Bull.

Guys who get it, know to hold off for light changes.

Guys who don't, catch 5s.

I have enough gold medals on the wall to know that most of you guys are FOS. You shoot large steel plates, not a 1/2 MOA bull. You feel confident because you hit a toilet lid out there.

More of you guys should get off your high horses and go shoot Commonwealth style F Class for a while.... Not the pussy foot single string chase the spotter bullshit they shoot in the states. You might learn something.... ahh forget it... you wont.

2 different disciplines. I would be much happier with a first round hit on an moa steel plate at 1500 yards than trying to print the smallest groups I can on paper at any distance. Not saying there's anything wrong with F-class, it just doesn't excite me like pulling the trigger and seeing an impact on steel down range.

 

[Diver160651]

You need to be banned for the continued promotion of stupidity

You are not smart enough to continue posting in this thread

It would be funny as fuck if you created an all-time dumbass sticky thread with the user name and some of their posts.

This thread has some C suit candidates for submission.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Wow. I thought we killed this in 2014

 

[Lowlight]

I need to create a real, "Stupid Marksmanship" type thread, like a, Stupid Advice section and then just make it so these members can only post there and nowhere else,

Limit them to "Read Only" and then only give them a Post button in that one area as new form of banning, sure you can access the site still, but we limit your movement

 

[Bender]

I need to create a real, "Stupid Marksmanship" type thread, like a, Stupid Advice section and then just make it so these members can only post there and nowhere else,

Limit them to "Read Only" and then only give them a Post button in that one area as new form of banning, sure you can access the site still, but we limit your movement

I vote 26 times for this. Please.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I vote 26 times for this. Please.

I vote 26 times if the survey is at 100yd. But only 12 if it’s at 1000yds.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I need to create a real, "Stupid Marksmanship" type thread, like a, Stupid Advice section and then just make it so these members can only post there and nowhere else,

Limit them to "Read Only" and then only give them a Post button in that one area as new form of banning, sure you can access the site still, but we limit your movement

YES!

 

[Long Range 338]

Or, Perhaps it just averages out and has proportionately less of an effect as distance increases. Maybe it's more stable more of the time at longer ranges.

Ok, just read your own post here and let it simmer for a while. You literally just said your MOA would get smaller at distance...

 

[Long Range 338]

The hole for the water was either 1-1/2 or 2”.

The flapper was like 6 or 8”.

Surface area.

At the time, I didn’t know that. I just knew it sounded wrong. Shortly after, I met a gentleman that was an engineer, but also had a ton of time in the field doing mechanical work. Best of both worlds. I asked him about that as it always stuck with me and he explained it. Opened my eyes that there are a ton of people very good at what they do, but don’t necessarily know the “why.”

This gentleman was also present when a welder that had been on the job 20+ years got into a verbal confrontation with his supervisor that only had about 5 years on the job. He kept touting his time on the job.

The gentleman calmly interjected “Do you have 25 years experience and knowledge or have you been doing same thing repeatedly for 25 years?”

True to form, I’ve always noticed the people that either go straight to how many years they have been doing something or how many years someone else has been doing something, rarely have any articulable facts or data to back it up.

Those that do, regardless of years of experience always show the facts first and fall back on their time in afterwards to illustrate they have seen those facts hold up.

Having spent my entire life in the trades this is more common now than ever. True masters of their trade that understand the theoretical basis of their work is in short supply. And it is the same on the Engineering side of things, designs are less complete than ever and often times don't take into account what is happening in the real world - especially as it pertains to interfacing with other trades. It often seems to escape people's understanding that Engineers design and the Trades install the design. Often not accounting for the crucial experience of both.

In the end, I'm the installer so what the hell do I know? I've had several very informative conversations with Engineers and if they will come down off their high horse and talk person to person they typically find out it is not so much an education problem as a communication problem. To the point that there are a couple of Engineers in the area that call and ask for ideas in the design phase that help with timeline and cost issues.

Sorry for the serious derail but I found the commentary interesting.

 

[nick338]

Having spent my entire life in the trades this is more common now than ever. True masters of their trade that understand the theoretical basis of their work is in short supply. And it is the same on the Engineering side of things, designs are less complete than ever and often times don't take into account what is happening in the real world - especially as it pertains to interfacing with other trades. It often seems to escape people's understanding that Engineers design and the Trades install the design. Often not accounting for the crucial experience of both.

In the end, I'm the installer so what the hell do I know? I've had several very informative conversations with Engineers and if they will come down off their high horse and talk person to person they typically find out it is not so much an education problem as a communication problem. To the point that there are a couple of Engineers in the area that call and ask for ideas in the design phase that help with timeline and cost issues.

Sorry for the serious derail but I found the commentary interesting.

There are far too many people in a position to make decisions that affect everyone under them, never actually having performed the job they are making the decisions for, or consulting the actual people that do them.

 

[Steel head]

In a few decades of construction I had to deal with a few engineers and architects who had little grasp on reality.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

In a few decades of construction I had to deal with a few engineers and architects who had little grasp on reality.

Plans that looked like M.C. Escher drawings?

 

[Molon]

William C. Davis has reported on tests conducted at Frankford Arsenal on this subject matter. Using machine-rested, bolt-actioned, heavy test-barrels, one such test that was conducted on an indoor-range involved firing eighteen 10-shot groups on targets at 100 yards and 300 yards. The average extreme spread for the groups at 300 yards was 3 times as large as the average extreme spread of the groups at 100 yards.

In another test that was conducted at Aberdeen Proving Ground using .30 caliber match-grade ammunition, thirteen 10-shot groups were fired simultaneously through paper screens at different distances. The mean radius for the groups at 300 yards was 1.0”. The mean radius at 600 yards was 2.1”.


.....

. . . getting a smaller/or close enough angular group can happen, not frequently but it's a possibility nonetheless . . .

Nothing contained in the quotes from William C. Davis that I posted supports what you just said.


...

 

[PracticalTactical]

Ok, just read your own post here and let it simmer for a while. You literally just said your MOA would get smaller at distance...

https://media1.tenor.com/images/e9622e96dd7afa5fb459029dfe00fc55/tenor.gif?itemid=12290251

 

[Long Range 338]

^^^ Is she Canadian too?

 

[Steel head]

So PT is a fembot?

 

[1moaoff]

Every rifle groups tighter online, if you do your part...

And every girl is tighter online!!!

 

[1moaoff]

Wow. I thought we killed this in 2014

It is kinda fun to see from time to time!

 

[47guy]

In a few decades of construction I had to deal with a few engineers and architects who had little grasp on reality.

Yep!!

 

[LastShot300]

Nothing contained in the quotes from William C. Davis that I posted supports what you just said.


...

Well, you posted about a test that showed linearly bigger groups at distance or not? On the other hand, I wasn't exactly trying to "support" my post with yours. So, what's the fuzz about?

 

[Fig]

I got runtoff Acurateshooter.com for calling bullshit on this bullshit “bullets going to sleep” bullshit. Appearently I called the wrong person “misinformed” and got flame sprayed by five matron bitches appealing to this guys bon fides and victories in bench rest “marksmanship”. Over there it’s who ya know, not whatcha know. I even posted a link to the Litz article and challenge, and was told that the rice paper the bullets flew through completely altered the trajectory, and invalidated his results. I was the real fool for thinking BR guys knew anything about shooting or marksmanship...handloading, yes. Actual shooting not so much.

You know, there’s a reason we have competitions where we actually shoot against each other and don’t just talk about it on the Internet (like some people).

 

[Diver160651]

I got runtoff Acurateshooter.com for calling bullshit on this bullshit “bullets going to sleep” bullshit. Appearently I called the wrong person “misinformed” and got flame sprayed by five matron bitches appealing to this guys bon fides and victories in bench rest “marksmanship”. Over there it’s who ya know, not whatcha know. I even posted a link to the Litz article and challenge, and was told that the rice paper the bullets flew through completely altered the trajectory, and invalidated his results. I was the real fool for thinking BR guys knew anything about shooting or marksmanship...handloading, yes. Actual shooting not so much.

You know, there’s a reason we have competitions where we actually shoot against each other and don’t just talk about it on the Internet (like some people).

Fig,

Please let’s be careful using completions as the litmus test. Some PRS type matches have 200 shooters, most approach 80-100. regionals 25 -60 (I shoot these types).

Some of the shooters that blow smoke about their wins might just have won using BR gear in a match of 4. Mostly, these are the type of guys busting balls on the forums about winning — I could go on and on.

Hell, Frank was fast on the draw snd band such a dude not long ago.

I am in your camp 100%, just wanted to point out that some people, many of the BR crowd blow their shit out of proportion, then bust on a guy like you that is disseminating truth about marksmanship.

jim

 

[Fig]

I hear what you’re saying, but the same guys who I see win all the time aren’t (with a few notable exceptions) the ones chest thumping on The Hide. Most of them are lurkers. Most of them are probably less of a dick than I would be.

Their rifles aren’t winning for them, because I guarantee I could trade with them at the beginning of the match and they’de fuck me up with my own stick.

They’re practicing all the time and treating it like a real sport rather than a hobby like me; like alot of us...

What about Mammoth, or the more snipery competitions?

Most of the really good guys I’ve been squadded with were super cool and went way out of their way to help new shooters. For all the bitching and sea stories on the Internet I find the tactical bolt rifle/PRS community full of humble, knowledgeable guys.

 

[Diver160651]

I hear what you’re saying, but the same guys who I see win all the time aren’t (with a few notable exceptions) the ones chest thumping on The Hide. Most of them are lurkers. Most of them are probably less of a dick than I would be.

Their rifles aren’t winning for them, because I guarantee I could trade with them at the beginning of the match and they’de fuck me up with my own stick.

They’re practicing all the time and treating it like a real sport rather than a hobby like me; like alot of us...

What about Mammoth, or the more snipery competitions?

Most of the really good guys I’ve been squadded with were super cool and went way out of their way to help new shooters. For all the bitching and sea stories on the Internet I find the tactical bolt rifle/PRS community full of humble, knowledgeable guys.

Wait, I must not have been clear.

I am trying to say that many of the guys on “other” forums, are the ones with hot air. Not your typical PRS/NRL winner or top shooter

I am agree with you, people on this forum, if we’ve won a PRS match, probably shot against more shooters than many of the BR guys in their fragmented class system. Restating the comp shooters here, generally work against a bigger pool than some of the accurate shooter dudes.

I think we are on the same page

 

[PracticalTactical]

Wait, I must not have been clear.

I am trying to say that many of the guys on “other” forums, are the ones with hot air. Not your typical PRS/NRL winner or top shooter

I am agree with you, people on this forum, if we’ve won a PRS match, probably shot against more shooters than many of the BR guys in their fragmented class system. Restating the comp shooters here, generally work against a bigger pool than some of the accurate shooter dudes.

I think we are on the same page

Keep in mind that advice is put forth through the lens of ones own experiences and a guy who does well in PRS would not necessarily do well in F Class, BR or some other shooting discipline and vice versa. Each discipline requires a very different skill set and draws upon different personality types.

I find it disheartening that SH is collectively so focused on PRS that the mere mention of an interest in some other shooting discipline is worse than having alternative sexual preferences.

PRS is just not the center of the universe and not the sum of all things that can be known about long range shooting. Challenging, sure, but it's not the ultimate accuracy game.

 

[nick338]

Keep in mind that advice is put forth through the lens of ones own experiences and a guy who does well in PRS would not necessarily do well in F Class, BR or some other shooting discipline and vice versa. Each discipline requires a very different skill set and draws upon different personality types.

I find it disheartening that SH is collectively so focused on PRS that the mere mention of an interest in some other shooting discipline is worse than having alternative sexual preferences.

PRS is just not the center of the universe and not the sum of all things that can be known about long range shooting. Challenging, sure, but it's not the ultimate accuracy game.

At the risk of blowing this up, I'll be the first to tell you I don't have a hard on for PRS at all. I just want to shoot, period. Putting rounds where I want them and understanding why they didn't get there without classifying it as a certain discipline is all I care about.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Holy shit. It’s not the mention of benchrest or F class. There’s a ton of F class shooters on the hide.

Most of my loading information comes from F class shooters as shooters focused on PRS usually aren’t the best source for precision loading information.

Conversely, I don’t ask F class shooters for advice on how to build a position on a barricade.

What we are HEAVILY BIASED about here on the hide are people who think they know shit and obviously don’t. Those tend to hide behind statements like this.

 

[Diver160651]

Keep in mind that advice is put forth through the lens of ones own experiences and a guy who does well in PRS would not necessarily do well in F Class, BR or some other shooting discipline and vice versa. Each discipline requires a very different skill set and draws upon different personality types.

I find it disheartening that SH is collectively so focused on PRS that the mere mention of an interest in some other shooting discipline is worse than having alternative sexual preferences.

PRS is just not the center of the universe and not the sum of all things that can be known about long range shooting. Challenging, sure, but it's not the ultimate accuracy game.

I have friends and people on here who shoot both PRS and F-Class as well as other square range sports. All shooters benefit from the best of the BR guys and their best practices, especially in load development. Just as the BR crowd brings knowledge of reloading, field & PRS type shooters, bring expertise from their type of shooting that involves many different targets from 100 -1400 yards often in the same match, across a variety of AOF, diverse FOF, and some stepped out. Indeed, this gives a perspective not typically seen in a one distance BR type match. Again, many shooters shoot both and share information.

Sorry to have to repeat this, but some of the BR events are so fractured that it is possible to have only a couple of shooters in the "match." I know of examples with 4 -6 shooters, and I am sure less, walking away with guys bragging about their finish. It seems it has become ubiquitous for some BR type guys to get into arguments, and when they are wrong, they default to the type of BS @Fig was explaining. BTW the same happens in the Archery world.

Nobody is claiming PRS type of shooters all-knowing, that’s your hangup.

There is just no room in this sport for some of the braggadocious behavior, some based at best on sketchy pedigrees. Then used to beat on others and cover-up their errors.

 

[Tokay444]

If all you got from that is PRS shooters are anti F Class or BR, and this site is only about PRS, you’ve shown us your hand. You’re a complete boob.
A bullet doesn’t, “go to sleep” just because it’s shot out of an F-Class rifle. It doesn’t happen at all, in any rifle. That should be the take away. If you believe a RIFLE can shoot smaller groups at distance, in any arena, you’re a boob.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If all you got from that is PRS shooters are anti F Class or BR, and this site is only about PRS, you’ve shown us your hand. You’re a complete boob.
A bullet doesn’t, “go to sleep” just because it’s shot out of an F-Class rifle. It doesn’t happen at all, in any rifle. That should be the take away. If you believe a RIFLE can shoot smaller groups at distance, in any arena, you’re a boob.

Mmmmm boobs.

 

[Tokay444]

I can't wait for Frank's next podcast...

 

[PracticalTactical]

Ok you bunch of brainiacks.. Find one of MY POSTS, where I said the bullet went to sleep!

Others have said it, not me.

I've said there might be shit going on that is not fully understood, because I'm open minded enough to know that none of us know everything... Including Litz. I offered that it MIGHT be something as simple as light refraction that could explain it.... MIGHT.

I throw out a couple ideas for consideration and get attached for blasphemy, by a bunch of guys who would dismiss the difference as noise. I'm not talking about your groups. I'm talking about the subtle shit that happens inside your groups. How to make smaller groups.

As for open arms for an F Class guy, that's bullshit. Hey, my favorite scope is MOA, lets see if that doesn't draw fire!

So go ahead, take a few more shots at your favorite target. I'm done with this conversation.