PRS Talk How do you DOPE the wind at matches?

[earthquake]

I was having this discussion with a new shooter I was helping at a match last weekend. I realized that I am relying less on my Kestrel and really just "winging" it I suppose, from experience. ( ...hold left edge, send it, see what happens....) LoL!

Anyway, I find that the wind values that a Kestrel spits out are almost ALWAYS wrong. i.e. - Kestrel measures and says hold 2.1-Mil left for a 1,308 yard shot. Shooter just before you says he held "straight up" and hit (same ballistics as you). I find this happening a lot. It's a stage that if you miss, it's going into the trees and you will have no idea where you missed. How do you take precautions on stages like this where you better have the wind doped right...misses are into the void...and the stage is worth a LOT of points.

 

[Fig]

I don't "rely" on my Kestrel, but I do see what it says every stage. What you're talking about it your own sense of the rifle more than actual "Data On Previous Engagements". The more and longer you shoot the more you have a sense of what the bullet is going to do.

I totally agree that often the Kestrel will give a value that I don't agree with when I look through the scope, and often I'll add a little or subtract a little, and more often than not I'm right. The Kestrel is giving you a moment in time in changing conditions. You have to actually make the wind call (wind guess), and you can't wait for a condition or allow it to return to the one you want to shoot. You have to "engage", period, which is what makes this sport so fucking great!

In short, you're using The Force, which is where we all want to be eventually. You can teach fundamentals, and teach how to be a good wind guesser, but only experience and the DOPE in your brain that isn't written gets you to where the information is a part of the call, but it isn't the call itself.

Maybe too deep. Just tell him that if he shoots enough he'll get enough experience to where the feel of the condition will start to be a factor!

 

[Olen_4504]

I'm sure you know this - but of course the kestrel is not going to be super precise esp when shooting at 1308 yards.

the kestrel is only measuring the wind where you are standing. it's not reading the 15 other things it's doing between you and the 1308 target in your example.

you need to watch Mirage/Trees/Grass/Dirt Splash/Target Splash to get a rough idea of wind direction and speed. then you can also listen to what happened to other shooters but take it with a grain of salt. (they could be BSing you, their zero could be off which is giving them a much different wind call than what they should have held with a perfect zero, etc)

what i've been doing is just spending as much time behind glass as possible at matches and watching a listening and filtering information.

most can agree it is the hardest part of this sport and takes a lot of practice. i'm still very green at it but i'm getting a little better every time i go out.

 

[earthquake]

Yeah, anymore I figure wind direction first, then try to keep aware of any changes between the time I measure it and when I'm actually on the stage, and a generalized speed value.

Most of the places I shoot and the calibers I use though, I'm not really leaving the plate much...unless of course the targets are really small. And I've shot enough to know what the bullet will do.

But trying to relay this info to a new guy shooting a much slower pill had me questioning myself as how to explain all this. It does just boil down to trigger time. Not the answer a newby wants to hear though during a match that he's getting 0's and 2's on every stage! ? (I am working with him on the fundamentals of positional shooting too) I'm sure a lot of it is the size of his wobble zone right now.

 

[Sheldon N]

It's a stage that if you miss, it's going into the trees and you will have no idea where you missed. How do you take precautions on stages like this where you better have the wind doped right...misses are into the void...and the stage is worth a LOT of points.

That's a really tough shooting scenario. For opening shot it's really just whatever you've got for a best guess. Big picture what the wind has been doing over the whole match and prior stages, looking at mirage and vegetation, maybe there's dust being kicked up from another closer target on an adjacent stage thats a visual cue. Maybe listening to other shooters and what they were doing. If I have the opportunity I'm going to get on glass right in line behind someone else shooting and watch their trace. You can often pick up where they are missing even if they can't see it on scope or in the impact zone.

If it's prone and you're able, watching your own trace is a huge advantage to knowing where the bullet went. Super tough from any sort of barricade position, I can't see trace from positional shooting usually.

Then if you're missing and have no trace and no visual cue, it comes down to making intelligent corrections to see if you can find the right wind hold. Don't send the same shot twice hoping for a different result, make corrections in at least half plate width increments but not so big that you'd skip over the plate and jump to missing on the opposing side. Sort of like playing a game of Battleship...

 

[lukejr985]

What i usually do is make an educated guess, then calibrate my kestrel after the fact, example, if you needed .6 mils to impact center at 675 yards I plug that into the kestrel and figure out what the wind speed actually is.

 

[Crabcore]

i think the whole "left edge" thing is a dangerous trap that is easy to get sucked into. For most PRS stages, any given target will be right around 2 MOA. This means the target is 0.6 mils wide. if you hold "left edge" you are really holding 0.3 mils. for most popular calibers, out to average engagement distances at a match, this will work when the wind is a few miles per hour or less. It works just enough that people keep doing it. It is fast and easy.
I have been working to be more aware of this at matches this year, and change my thinking from "left edge" which is just a meaningless arbitrary location on a single target, to 0.3 mils from center. This lets you use your wind call on the next stage, and the next stage, as the day goes on.
the other parts of this is that I take a longer wind reading at each stage, and see peak and average wind. then i use those numbers to make an informed estimation of what i believe the wind hold will be.
the next thing is to quit taking in information from the other shooters. I think more people get messed up trying to use data from random things competitors say than just trusting themselves and their equipment. Unless you are in a super squad, most people can't really be trusted.
the last part is to believe the bullet if the call is wrong. Measure with the reticle and adjust as you shoot. You can take that actual adjustment and compare it to your data afterward. when you see those similar conditions you know what the call should be. if you just hold "left edge" you still have no idea.

This is still something i struggle with, since you are trying to do so much in so little time, but being more aware of target size, and using the reticle more has certainly improved my scores this year. Even if you spend whole stage figuring out the wind, it will pay off if conditions aren't changing too much. it also lets you "true up" your wind velocity for those long shots.

 

[lts1ow]

I am still new enough were I guess first round with a edge hold pending what wind looks like its doing. But what I have found to be really helpful is being able to see the target rock. If I am holding left and it rocks right, thats important info for the follow up shots.

 

[blbennett1288]

I do a couple things and make a guestimate at the end

1.) Use kestrel to get Min, Avg, Max readings
2.) Watch Mirage, personally I find this the most helpful to determine the magnitude of wind. If my estimate differs from my kestrel readings I go with my mirage estimate
3.) Watch vegetation and foliage to confirm or validate my mirage estimate
4.) Knowing what MPH gun you have to get your wind hold

 

[Deleted member 10043]

The app is good to get a benchmark but looking through the scope will tell a different story. Going off the edge of your target and knowing the size determines your margin of error is helpful.

 

[ThePretzel]

I use my Kestrel to figure out what different speeds of wind feel like. What does it feel like when the wind dies down to 5 mph? What does it feel like when it gusts to 15 or 20 mph? What's the average wind speed when it's not gusting or dying?

I have 5mph, 10mph, and 15mph wind holds written for every distance on my rifle DOPE card. If I know what a 5mph, 10mph, and 15mph wind feels like then I can identify the changes in wind speed when I'm shooting the stage and adjust my wind hold accordingly.

If possible I will also use my Tremor3 wind dots on stages when holding over, because it allows me to essentially do the same without worrying about writing wind values on my DOPE card. I prefer to think of the wind as a speed, rather than a specific size of wind hold. It allows me to keep things consistent from stage to stage or day to day.

 

[Rugster]

Bracketing based on target size and risk.

To be fair you’re referencing Thunder Valley which are some of the most difficult wind conditions I’ve seen.

 

[ScottDWallace]

My Kestrel definitely plays a huge part of the equation. I get a solid read (meaning away from obstacles and learning how to not influence the meter) on velocity. I reference the lanyard and also a length of surveyors tape on my spotting tripod to make sure I get a good azimuth. Then I will glass near, middle, and at the target. I use all that to add a little here, subtract a little there. Even after all that, I'm usually still reading too much wind and hold a tenth or two downwind.

Cheers

 

[47guy]

i think the whole "left edge" thing is a dangerous trap that is easy to get sucked into. For most PRS stages, any given target will be right around 2 MOA. This means the target is 0.6 mils wide. if you hold "left edge" you are really holding 0.3 mils. for most popular calibers, out to average engagement distances at a match, this will work when the wind is a few miles per hour or less. It works just enough that people keep doing it. It is fast and easy.
I have been working to be more aware of this at matches this year, and change my thinking from "left edge" which is just a meaningless arbitrary location on a single target, to 0.3 mils from center. This lets you use your wind call on the next stage, and the next stage, as the day goes on.
the other parts of this is that I take a longer wind reading at each stage, and see peak and average wind. then i use those numbers to make an informed estimation of what i believe the wind hold will be.
the next thing is to quit taking in information from the other shooters. I think more people get messed up trying to use data from random things competitors say than just trusting themselves and their equipment. Unless you are in a super squad, most people can't really be trusted.
the last part is to believe the bullet if the call is wrong. Measure with the reticle and adjust as you shoot. You can take that actual adjustment and compare it to your data afterward. when you see those similar conditions you know what the call should be. if you just hold "left edge" you still have no idea.

This is still something i struggle with, since you are trying to do so much in so little time, but being more aware of target size, and using the reticle more has certainly improved my scores this year. Even if you spend whole stage figuring out the wind, it will pay off if conditions aren't changing too much. it also lets you "true up" your wind velocity for those long shots.

A lot of this is what I’ve done the last couple of years and a HUGE ONE that this gentleman mentioned...stop listening to guys in your squad because 90% of the time they are wrong.

I tell guys I squad with NOT to call high/low left/right...I can see where I impact.

 

[Sheldon N]

I tell guys I squad with NOT to call high/low left/right...I can see where I impact.

And because you're not supposed to give corrections on the clock.

 

[FN-Whitney]

Mirage can be your best friend when judging wind, it is not always the best way to go but it is always what I look for first. Grass and trees can be a good indicator but I find mirage is more accurate, at least that works for me.

 

[Fig]

A lot of this is what I’ve done the last couple of years and a HUGE ONE that this gentleman mentioned...stop listening to guys in your squad because 90% of the time they are wrong.

I tell guys I squad with NOT to call high/low left/right...I can see where I impact.

Local matches? That wouldn't fly past the first time at a national one.

 

[47guy]

Local matches? That wouldn't fly past the first time at a national one.

Yep local stuff...I haven’t shot any big matches yet but going to try if/when things slow down a bit.

 

[Carl_Ross]

Regarding feedback on the clock at club matches, in our slice of the world it's typically allowed for novice shooters. I think that works out on average, as we definitely want them hitting some plates and having fun.

For me, on my dope card for each stage I write down the 10mph 90 degree wind for each target. I've done this for years, and my mind is pretty good at scaling off of that data. Additionally, it let's me make dope cards in advance, possibly well in advance, instead of just before I'm up to shoot.

Having that reference, I do my best to think in terms of mils, even if it's one or two tenths. That way I can quickly scale it as shot distances or angles change. For the same reason, I do my references to the center of the plate. The center of the plate is the center no matter the size of that plate, so it's one less impediment to complicating the "math" or reducing it's accuracy.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Regarding feedback on the clock at club matches, in our slice of the world it's typically allowed for novice shooters. I think that works out on average, as we definitely want them hitting some plates and having fun.

For me, on my dope card for each stage I write down the 10mph 90 degree wind for each target. I've done this for years, and my mind is pretty good at scaling off of that data. Additionally, it let's me make dope cards in advance, possibly well in advance, instead of just before I'm up to shoot.

Having that reference, I do my best to think in terms of mils, even if it's one or two tenths. That way I can quickly scale it as shot distances or angles change. For the same reason, I do my references to the center of the plate. The center of the plate is the center no matter the size of that plate, so it's one less impediment to complicating the "math" or reducing it's accuracy.

I think he’s talking primarily 2 day matches.

PRS rules clearly state zero help under time from anyone. If you give corrections to a shooter, you get a zero.

NRL is a bit tougher to decipher. It states the RO will only call impact. I could have missed it, but I don’t recall seeing anything specifying anyone else calling corrections.

 

[Carl_Ross]

For sure, none of the two day matches I've attended under either group allowed feedback. Just one day unsanctioned club matches.

 

[Mormegil87]

I prefer to get 3 different wind calls for each stage. Say 2,4, and 6mph or 3,5 and 7mph. Then write them all down on my wrist coach. I do this for every stage

 

[Rugster]

As an example, let’s say the target is 1 mil wide for easy math. That means it’s a half mil wide from center both ways. Now let’s say you decide the wind will push the bullet 8 tenths. You have two options here:

1. Aim 8 tenths from center and attempt to center punch the plate.
2. Aim on the edge and you’re likely to impact between the right/left center and the edge.

Option 2 is the better choice in my opinion. You don’t want to give up the plate to punch the center. If the wind dies you miss. Send the first shot on the edge and watch the action of the plate swinging to tell you what to do next (add or subtract from initial call). I keep a matrix in my pack that translates target size in inches into mils at distances out to 1350.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

I keep a matrix in my pack that translates target size in inches into mils at distances out to 1350.

I've been thinking something like that would be handy to keep in my pack. Is it something you found online, or made up yourself?

 

[Rugster]

Made myself in excel

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Made myself in excel

Cool. That'll give me a project the next time I'm stuck at home & can't go shooting.

 

[Sheldon N]

As an example, let’s say the target is 1 mil wide for easy math. That means it’s a half mil wide from center both ways. Now let’s say you decide the wind will push the bullet 8 tenths. You have two options here:

1. Aim 8 tenths from center and attempt to center punch the plate.
2. Aim on the edge and you’re likely to impact between the right/left center and the edge.

Option 2 is the better choice in my opinion. You don’t want to give up the plate to punch the center. If the wind dies you miss. Send the first shot on the edge and watch the action of the plate swinging to tell you what to do next (add or subtract from initial call). I keep a matrix in my pack that translates target size in inches into mils at distances out to 1350.

Agree with the approach of managing risk when you start to give up edge of plate and you know there's a risk of the wind letting off and you dropping a shot. You can sort of accomplish the same thing in how you choose your wind hold, by looking at what the conditions are doing and how often they do it.

If the wind is blowing hard at 0.8 and only rarely does it die to straight up, I'll probably open at 0.8 and risk giving up the edge of plate rather than risk the chance of having the wind go a bit higher to 0.9 and losing a shot downwind. Similarly if the wind is pretty steady at 0.4 with the odd gust to 0.8, I'm probably going to open at 0.4 or 0.5, putting the low wind value on the upside of the plate and risk dropping shots off the downwind side, managing risk by keeping my eye open for gusts starting to pick up.

Starts to get harder to use plate size to manage risk when the plates get smaller and the wind gets bigger or more variable. At the NRL match last weekend we had a lot of smaller targets further out and some on/off winds with the occasional switch. In that situation I went the approach of looking at what was working in which conditions, and being ready to make fast changes when you saw the condition come and go. We had some longer targets that were small, and the wind hold change could be as much as 3 times the target width. Some guys would be holding 0.4 mil or almost straight up, then it would turn and blow harder so you'd be at 1.5 to 1.7 mils. In that case you couldn't correct based on prior miss or you'd chase your tail for 3-4 shots. You basically had to recognize the wind condition coming and jump out in front of it with a big correction.

Overall its an approach of holding the "most probable" wind center of plate, taking into consideration the frequency of that wind condition and what you can observe as your are stepping up to shoot. This approach works better IMO when the variability of the wind is larger than the width of the plate and the wind spends more time going on/off than hanging out in the middle range.

 

[Rugster]

lol yes, that is the long version. I gave the cliff notes as he mentioned bringing a new shooter. It’s all bracketing, and how detailed you want to get.

At Thunder Valley it really does go from .8 to straight up. It’s pretty wild. I believe Joe Walls said he was “humbled” shooting there and that speaks volumes. That range has updrafts, downdrafts, lighting issues, switching winds, you name it. On a 4 target troop line I hit with .2L, .4L, .5L, 1.2R! Lol

 

[Timo Turl]

Agree with the approach of managing risk when you start to give up edge of plate and you know there's a risk of the wind letting off and you dropping a shot. You can sort of accomplish the same thing in how you choose your wind hold, by looking at what the conditions are doing and how often they do it.

If the wind is blowing hard at 0.8 and only rarely does it die to straight up, I'll probably open at 0.8 and risk giving up the edge of plate rather than risk the chance of having the wind go a bit higher to 0.9 and losing a shot downwind. Similarly if the wind is pretty steady at 0.4 with the odd gust to 0.8, I'm probably going to open at 0.4 or 0.5, putting the low wind value on the upside of the plate and risk dropping shots off the downwind side, managing risk by keeping my eye open for gusts starting to pick up.

Starts to get harder to use plate size to manage risk when the plates get smaller and the wind gets bigger or more variable. At the NRL match last weekend we had a lot of smaller targets further out and some on/off winds with the occasional switch. In that situation I went the approach of looking at what was working in which conditions, and being ready to make fast changes when you saw the condition come and go. We had some longer targets that were small, and the wind hold change could be as much as 3 times the target width. Some guys would be holding 0.4 mil or almost straight up, then it would turn and blow harder so you'd be at 1.5 to 1.7 mils. In that case you couldn't correct based on prior miss or you'd chase your tail for 3-4 shots. You basically had to recognize the wind condition coming and jump out in front of it with a big correction.

Overall its an approach of holding the "most probable" wind center of plate, taking into consideration the frequency of that wind condition and what you can observe as your are stepping up to shoot. This approach works better IMO when the variability of the wind is larger than the width of the plate and the wind spends more time going on/off than hanging out in the middle range.

Last match I shot called for 5 mils of wind. The target gets really small when it’s ripping like that and you are shooting beyond 1000 yards ???

 

[Sheldon N]

I'd take a steady 25mph 9 oclock over a switchy 5mph tailwind any day.

Hold all the mils!

 

[Carl_Ross]

It is pretty satisfying to have as much wind as elevation at 1k and connect...

Big vote for 90 degree winds being way easier to deal with consistently than 0 degree or 180 degree winds.

 

[Rugster]

I'd take a steady 25mph 9 oclock over a switchy 5mph tailwind any day.

Hold all the mils!

Couldn’t agree more!

 

[Timo Turl]

I'd take a steady 25mph 9 oclock over a switchy 5mph tailwind any day.

Hold all the mils!

The only constant was that it blows 15 to 25 mph. All tactics like holding edge of plate or just inside go out the window. You miss, hope the ground isn’t too wet to spot the miss (and it usually is) and adjust or guess again ! Don’t know where you guys are shooting that allows for such modest holds ?

 

[Sheldon N]

Don’t know where you guys are shooting that allows for such modest holds ?

I'm out in the PNW, we get some pretty decent wind on the east side of the state.

 

[TACC]

Great info and experience for us just trying to get a handle on it.

 

[Jeff Todd]

And because you're not supposed to give corrections on the clock.

Right, I really don’t want any call accept IMPACT , if I mis nothing said is ok with me.. I’ve been in matches and someone calling every shot..