How Long did it Take You

[CxAgent]

To be able to consistently be able to shoot sub MOA? I am new to shooting a rifle for precision. I have a RPR in .308 and an AR with a .223 18" wylde. I have 460 rounds through the RPR of various types and about the same through the AR. Depending on time available I will usually bring 20 to 60 rounds(1 to 3 boxes) of high quality ammo and shoot 5 round groups. Once home and measured I seem to average 1.25 MOA. All shooting at 100 yards. The longest distance I have is 150 yards. Everything I have read just reinforces consistency with all the fundamentals.

So the big question is how long did it take you to become a consistent MOA or sub MOA shooter. Most of my shooting is with bipod and rear bag from a bench or prone with bipod and rear bag.

 

[Fig]

Everything I have read just reinforces consistency with all the fundamentals.

Everything you've read is right.
I'm out. I've been shooting since 5 or 6 years old, so I have zero idea.

If you buy a nice bench-rest and take yourself out of the equation you can get a better idea of where your skills are and what the limits of your equipment are.

 

[CxAgent]

If you buy a nice bench-rest

I have been looking at the bench rests. Is there a recommended rest. One of the local stores has the Caldwell lead sled and DFT.

I picked up a Caldwell Tack Driver bag however my shooting was worse with that.

 

[Rerun7]

I’m in a similar boat. My dad started me shooting a single shot .22 at 3yr old and I’ve been doing it ever since.

However, I didn’t start getting consistent sub MOA groups until I upgraded to some decent gear that would consistently deliver results.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I have been looking at the bench rests. Is there a recommended rest. One of the local stores has the Caldwell lead sled and DFT.
I picked up a Caldwell Tack Driver bag however my shooting was worse with that.

If you want something that will really be worth it & let you see maximum accuracy then you need something like this:
https://targetshooting.worldsecuresystems.com/products/rifle-rests/model1000lp-rifle-rest

The problem is that the full setup will run you around $1k

You'll find that a lot of the cheaper setups are not all that stable once you start looking at longer ranges.

 

[Olen_4504]

I was thinking to myself yesterday after investigating and trouble shooting some bad groups then vertical stringing I was getting with a new action/chassis... just how many people get poor groups and never investigate ALL the possible causes.

I haven't been shooting long. with just a rear bag and bipod it is NOT hard to shoot sub-moa groups if the rifle is capable which most are now a days. But there are a lot of variables that can cause wild groups. this should be a good thing for the OP to hear - it might not be you. it could be something as simple has improper torque or something loose.

OP - have you checked your rifle over? all screws and hardware torqued correctly? scope rings, scope base (if applicable)?


just saying before you go buying rests trying to chase small groups. if you rifle isn't set up properly. you'll never get it

 

[Sheldon N]

Simple test I'd recommend. Find someone who you know is a competent shooter capable of shooting a group from prone. Give them your gun and have them shoot a couple groups to see what it does. Then you'll know if it's the gun or if it's you. I wouldn't go buy a rest or anything like that.

Shooting sub MOA prone is not hard. Lay down and hold still and pull the trigger slow without flinching. Yes you will need good fundamentals to shoot 1/4 MOA but you can be pretty sloppy with recoil management and still shoot a half decent group.

My thought is that you're either flinching and yanking the trigger, or your gun is just not a sub MOA gun.

 

[Olen_4504]

^^^^ this

 

[CxAgent]

I did go through the rifle when I changed the trigger and stock. Probably a good idea to go through it again. Below is today's target. The top two groups were shot with the Caldwell tack driver bag. Bottom left was with bipod and rear bag from the bench. The bottom right was with bipod and rear bag from prone. The one low shot was the last shot and I am positive I slapped/jerked the trigger when the crosshair was on the aiming point instead of consistent steady pressure to break the shot. I also made an adjustment to the windage of the scope between the 3rd and 4th group. I am not sure if it is possible to diagnose a target but figured I would include it.

 

[Snuby642]

Have you determined the best ammo yet?
Shoot that only and verify your moa.
You can get a lot of box ammo that won't do better than 1 1/2 -1 1/4 moa ever in anything.

Sounds like you may soon be reloading to get everything out of the 308 you can.

 

[jakelly]

Goals have to be achievable.

Put the rifle on sand bags, fully supported by bags (cheap FEMA flood bags are fine), and focus on smooth trigger pulls. This will tell you if your rifle can shoot consistently sub-MOA five shot groups, and which ammo it prefers.

Once you know that the goal is achievable, refine your skills until you get there.

 

[CxAgent]

The range I shoot at is usually empty so generally no one to ask and most of the people I shoot with are happy with minute of deer so not much help.

I seem to be most consistent shooting the 168gr FGMM. I have shot the Hornady match, Hornady black, Hornady Superformance, FGMM in the 185Gr, 175GR and 168Gr.

Reloading equipment is on the list of things to buy. Nest range trip will be with the FGMM 168gr.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I'm with Sheldon, find someone to shoot your rifle, just to get a grip on the accuracy potential of the gun. Not saying it is you at all, but say it is, you maybe have already walked away from the best ammo available for it.
As others have said, get to loading your own ammo, you will be so much happier and not at the mercy of another party.

 

[CxAgent]

I'm with Sheldon, find someone to shoot your rifle

I do think this is the best idea. I have done this with new pistols. If I wasn't shooting good I would have the RO where I used to shoot take some shots with the pistol. After watching what the pistol was capable of I always seemed to shoot it better. SO the next question is; anyone on the hide close to NE CT area willing to shoot a Ruger in .308 for me. I would prefer not to travel into MA.

 

[Snuby642]

So the fgmm 168 has had your best results?
What was your moa with that?
I think you should test with bags, bipods can be inconsistent if not loaded
the exact same each time. How do I know that? Lol . my bipod skills are lacking, working on it!

By now you have shot enough to tell the difference in ammo , bags are steady.

You may be discounting your skills, factory ammo in a stock gun shooting sub moa
Is not a given.

 

[supercorndogs]

Reloads being sub MOA in a factory barrel is not a given. There are no givens, you must test and verify. Ammo is not the only variable.

 

[CxAgent]

Made it to the range again this morning and noticed everytime I had a good start to a group I would tense up. 4 tight shots, slap trigger and threw the 5th shot. So I decided to try something different and printed out the snipers hide dot drill I had found in another thread. It is definitely harder than it looks. Below are the results. This was shot from bench with bipod and rear bag after tightening the rail the bipod is on. I did manage one group with a .4 MOA. I will call it more luck than skill but nice to see.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

I can't say I ever got to a consistent MOA group. If I had I'd be a Distinguished Rifleman by now. When I had the time to practice and shot regularly I was shooting Master scores, that was three years from buying the rifle. Currently shooting Expert scores, but resting the rifle on a bag it's near or under a minute, prone and sling about 2.5.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Made it to the range again this morning and noticed everytime I had a good start to a group I would tense up. 4 tight shots, slap trigger and threw the 5th shot. So I decided to try something different and printed out the snipers hide dot drill I had found in another thread. It is definitely harder than it looks. Below are the results. This was shot from bench with bipod and rear bag after tightening the rail the bipod is on. I did manage one group with a .4 MOA. I will call it more luck than skill but nice to see.
View attachment 6946999
View attachment 6947000

View attachment 6947001

That is a pretty respectable shooting record there.
To be honest, to get much better you might need to first start checking out the exact limits of consistency on your ammunition and also on the rifle, as well as taking any wind changes into account. All you shots are within the realm that the spread in velocity on your ammo or slight wind gusts could be a big factor, as well as what the inherent maximum accuracy potential of the barrel is.

 

[CxAgent]

Thank You. Those targets were the exception. Below is the first dot drill I tried from prone. and then what I would call my average prone shooting. I did notice after these targets the rail section the bipod was on was loose and tightened it. I am not sure that would have tightened the groups much more.

 

[Snuby642]

The dot drill is not a group is it?
More a measurement of marksmanship than moa.
Think you are mixing apples and oranges.
Are you done testing ammo?

 

[CxAgent]

My logic for doing the dot drill was to see if it was me mentally throwing a group. I think what may be happening is after three or 4 good shots I am focusing on the group verse the reticle. I also noticed I will tense up and slap the trigger instead of settling in and focusing on the fundamentals. With the dot drill I was not seeing a group form and tensing up so each shot was focused on hitting the dot (not trying to create a small group). Not sure if I am explaining the thought process for all to understand. The composite was more of a check to see if there was consistency with the shot placement and the spread of the shots.

In regards to ammo testing I may try a few different brands however the one round that interests me is the FGMM 185 grain. I will buy 4 boxes and check the results however before I do this I will need to find a better way to steady the rifle and remove me from the equation as much as possible.

I am also seriously considering a reloading setup. I believe this is the next logical step.

I also think I can use this to rationalize the purchase of another rifle .

 

[TripleBull]

So the big question is how long did it take you to become a consistent MOA or sub MOA shooter.

I got into local club target shooting comps as a kid and had some quality coaching in my first year. Within a few months I was pretty consistently shooting under MOA. But I had access to a range a short walk from our home, an excellent rifle and virtually infinite ammo, so I practiced regularly. These days I have limited trigger time and on a bad day can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn. Consistency comes from that combination - proper technique, adequate equipment and regular practice. You'll be able to recognize it when you begin slipping into "that zone" where you are taking care of the little details that minimize the bad shots.

 

[NateVA]

I also think I can use this to rationalize the purchase of another rifle .

Now you've got your head in the right place! Anything to justify another rifle purchase is a good thing.

 

[JRosson]

CX, IF you think you are having an issue with focus during a group, I would suggest you adjust your reticle 2-3 MOA (maybe even more if you don’t want to see the point of impact at all) high and then just concentrate on breaking the shot with the reticle on the X. Shots will hit low and not be a focal point for you. This will show you how the string groups without the mental distraction.

 

[_Raining]

I am about 2 years in to precision rifles and my avg is around .7 MOA. Every now and then I will go over 1 MOA but I can usually keep them in the .6 to .8 range but I have very expensive rifles, scopes, rests and reloading equipment. I don't shoot a massive amount but I have gone through 1000 308 rounds and 2500 6.5 Creedmoor rounds in 2 years.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

Solid advise so far. Honestly, if you’re serious about getting another rifle you might want to look into a quality 22. Something like a CZ455 Varmint would let you practice all of the fundamentals without the expense of centerfire fodder.

I “got good” on a CZ 452 Trainer and an SWFA 10x42 almost 7 years ago. With wolf gold I’ve gotten sub MOA (some even .5moa) at 100yd.

Good luck, just keep practicing and researching and eventually you’ll get there.

 

[Strykervet]

Only thing I can say is practice eliminating variables and work to shoot the weapon as close to it's limit as possible. A guy firing a 2MOA rifle within 2.5MOA consistently is a better shooter than the one firing a .5MOA rifle to within 1.5MOA.

It's all about fundamentals and eliminating variables. Call your shots and keep a good shot record. That's it in a nutshell I guess.

 

[308pirate]

I started shooting rifles competitively in 2001 or so. From 2001 to 2012 or so it was exclusively NRA highpower (slings and iron sights) and got pretty decent at it. Bought a scoped Howa 1500 heavy barrel in 308 Win around 2010 but never did much with it.

Left rifles alone for a few years and farted around with handguns and shotguns (clay shooting). Finally last year decided to get serious with shooting scoped bolt action rifles from bipods and practical field positions. I upgraded to a better scope and to a stock that actually fit me and would let me lie behind the rifle without tension.

Since January of 2017 I've put 1960 rounds through the rifle and can do this from prone at 100 yards pretty much at will:

The above is 10 rounds (including a clean, cold bore shot in the upper left of the group). The grid is 0.1 mil so that group is pretty much 0.2 mils (0.68 MOA) center to center at its largest.

It can be done. It just takes moderately capable equipment and a critical self reflection to honestly evaluate one's own technique. The key for me was mastering recoil control. Once I figured out how to get straight behind the rifle so that the rifle recoiled in a repeatable way that left the reticle on target after every shot, improvement became possible. The way to do so when the rifle is sitting on a bipod and a small rear bag is different (kinesthetically) than what I was used to (shoulders stiffened with a shooting coat, rifle pulled hard into shoulder by a sling).

 

[jab00]

+1 for what 308Pirate said. I’ve became much more consistent after working on my body positioning and recoil management as a result. Before that, it was concentrating on my breathing to correct some vertical stringing

 

[CxAgent]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. Great advice and information from all. Work is picking up so it will be a couple weeks before I get out again.

Even though I get some tight groups I believe it is the fundamentals getting the best of me.

My plan was to try and get consistent MOA or less then look for a class. I feel like I may be backwards in my thought process. It may be better to take a class and get an understanding of what I am doing wrong.

I forget what video I was watching but what was said made sense. Doin things wrong at the right time may result in good groups but you will not consistently get good groups. Or something similar to that.

 

[Prebanpaul]

Have someone shoot your gun, I 16th this. Another thing you can do shoot a live round. Shoot three dry fires.

 

[308pirate]

My plan was to try and get consistent MOA or less then look for a class. I feel like I may be backwards in my thought process. It may be better to take a class and get an understanding of what I am doing wrong..

You're definitely backwards in your original thought process.

The point of taking a class is to learn how to do things properly, not to impress the instructor and your fellow students with how well you can shoot.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

So the big question is how long did it take you to become a consistent MOA or sub MOA shooter. Most of my shooting is with bipod and rear bag from a bench or prone with bipod and rear bag.

I'm a newbie and started this last Spring with a Savage 10 FCP in 6.5 Creedmoor. I added an Atlas Bipod and a rear bag (and a cheap-O Vortex Crossfire II scope) before my first range session shooting factory Hornady 140 gr. ELP Match ammunition.

Took me ten rounds to get the scope to shoot to POA @ 50 yards and another 10 rounds at 100 yards to get it settled and hitting exactly where I aimed. From then on I have never shot more than .75 MOA at ranges out to 600 yards. I have shot a few at 1000 yards at steel 10" plates and not missed yet. I got lucky with an outstanding rifle out of the gate - 500+ rounds later I'm just beginning to realize that I'm the weak link in this relationship. If I can keep my head out of my ass the gun can shoot incredibly small groups.

I have been shooting sub MOA since the first range trip. But we are all different in our learning curve. I have to ad that I dry fire at least 5X as much as I live fire. I dry fire 3X a week for maybe 50 rounds/dry fires at a time.

VooDoo

 

[Shadow knows]

Do you practice dry firing at home?
Confirm the ammo your using.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I've been shooting for 49 years and I'm still working on it.

 

[CxAgent]

So since the last post I ordered a new rear bag. Ordered up some FGMM 168 gr, 175 gr, and 185 gr Bergers. I turned the shooting bench 90 degress so I had a straight flat side against me instead of the single protrusion off the table only supporting my right arm. This made for a more stable position. I also used my Caldwell tack driver bag as a seat to raise me up. Whoever built the seats must have been a giant as I am way to low compared to the bench. Just sitting on the seat I am not able to extend my bipod or use a good rear bag. I can say it made a difference in stability. I also went with no time limits today as I am on vacation and didn't have to hurry. I was sort of surprised by the results. In a previous post I stated my RPR shot the 168gr FGMM better than the 175gr. After looking at the targets I am pretty sure that would be splitting hairs between the three. Also, for the first time I knew where 90% of the shots were hitting after the shot before looking at the target. The amount of information I have gained form posts and member comments on this site is incredible.

 

[barronian]

which software were you using to read the targets ?

 

[rockmyglock]

which software were you using to read the targets ?

https://ontargetshooting.com/

 

[bax]

Many people said, "find a guy to shoot your rifle to check if it's you or the rifle". So you found a guy who shot your rifle and ... sorry dude, it's you. That has been my story. It took me years to consistently shoot good groups because I didn't understand or focus on fundamentals. Maybe you're perfect and it's the gun, I don't know. I wasn't and I still struggle with natural point of aim, sight alignment, and shouldering.

They are called fundamentals because they are. If you don't do them right, every time, then you can't shoot groups. That guy you found who shot a half-MOA group with your rifle has good fundamentals. If he didn't, the groups he shot wouldn't be half-MOA. If you are lucky, he or she is also a good coach. Have them observe you and give some criticism. Dry fire - a lot. Dry-firing helps to make fundamentals into artificial reflexes. It also helps with bolt manipulation and mag changes. After that firing pin drops the reticle better be in exactly the same place. if it is, then the bullets will go into little groups. Coaching is good.

 

[Chrazy-Chris]

When I went from a small cylindrical Midway rear bag to a gamechanger rear bag, that really helped. Using either a bipod or Caldwell Rock Jr front rest. After I'd adjusted to the gamechanger, I tried the old midway bag once for the "MOA all day challenge" and it was eye opening how big of an improvement the gamechanger was. I also find that if the bench I'm sitting at isn't perfect, I shoot better prone than on a so-so bench.

Finally, when shooting an AR it's important to be consistent with how much shoulder you're giving her. I've found that some ARs just dont like loaded bipods while others really shine with them. Trial and error, but be consistent with each group.