How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

[XTR]

I've been working on the loading for my 308 and thinking, "Dayum, I'm glad this isn't a barrel burner!"
Just an estimate but stay with me here...

Figure with a brand new barrel you're going to take 10 or 15 to get happy with your initial scope zero.

Now you shoot an OCW with one bullet. 25 rounds?

Check your chrono data and find out you're not hot enough to get to 1000... (happened to me)

More OCW loads. 25 rounds

Then go back and fine tune it. 15 rounds? maybe more?

Now play with seating depth. 30 rounds?


You're probably over 100 rounds with one powder and one bullet. If you're shooting a barrel burner you've used 10% of the barrel already and you've really just been shooting for data! Add in a few rounds just because it's fun to shoot and you're getting closer to 20%

I like my 308. I don't feel like I use up a chunk of barrel every time I go shoot.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

Barrels are expendables, just like powder and primers. Get used to the fact that every shot is one off of it's life. I haven't used ladder tests but I start chronographing when I shoot groups. If my first load doesn't come near the velocity I'm looking for I might skip one or two weights. Say I'm looking for 2800 FPS and my first weight is running 2650 and the chart tells me .7 grain of powder is 50 FPS then I'll skip up to the one that should be 2750 and see what it shoots. I'm trying to match velocities on issued ammo. I know that my load will have less spread than the factory ammo issued.

Oh, and for how many rounds 20 to 30. 3 or 4 groups to get a size and velocity then a couple of groups to shoot it in position.

 

[Tomekeuro85]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

It took me over 500 rounds to find a good load among several bullet and powder charges for my .223 when I first started handloading.

But then again I did (5) five shot groups per load, just to be sure it was a reliable measurement.

 

[vman]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

I load to the lands and accept that i will get the best accuracy from this. I rarely hear stories of accuracy getting worse near the lands and If i do I wonder what other variables have created this crap accuracy.

Assumptions-
: I have researched powders BEFORE i use them and determine the best powder based on consumer reviews, reports and availability
: I determine the projectile I will use in the same manner as I would determine powder
: Shooting form is good to go
: Rifle does not contribute to poor performance (ie, scope rings are tight, scope internals good, adequate barrel clearance, everything torqued down right etc)
: Kissing the lands gives me best results

New barrel foulers = 20 rounds
Seating Depth = zero rounds
max charge determination = 10-15 rounds
Ladder test sighters/foulers = 5 rounds
Ladder test = 15-20 rounds
Confirmation of ladder test = 25 rounds (5 x 5 shot groups)

So from a new barrel, to having determined a good load I would say I could do it with 85 rounds. Having a chrony whilst doing all of this, taking notes as you go along, and even analysing shots as you do them is key to reducing the amount of work you do.

It is also extremely important to make sure your shooting form is spot on when doing this as the output is only going to be as good as the input.

 

[XTR]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

I'm new to the long range accuracy game so I'm not the most efficient at this, and in my 308 it doesn't bother me that I'm throwing a few extras down range, I need the practice. My groups are getting better just from that. In fact I'm finally beginning to trust the data that I'm getting to be variations in loads/loading and not me tossing bullets all over the paper.

I'm just glad I started with something that is more forgiving, at least cost wise.

 

[madd0c]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

vman has a very scientific and well thought out answer, and I am sure it produces excellent results.

I on the other hand have found out that you probably never finish load workup. I find there is always another projectile I want to try, or working up a new powder or finding out that the load doesn;t group as well when I run out of a certain primer and have to substitute something else.

Overall, the testing is half the fun for me. So I am constantly trying out new loads and combinations.

That being said, I do have go to loads for certain applications that were worked up in a manner somewhat similar to vman. I just am not quite as efficient, and it usually takes 300+ rounds to feel comfortable I have found one of my "go to" loads.

madd0c

 

[Boogyman]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

This is my 2 cents....I first look at bullet and powder combos that the powder fills up at least 85 percent of the case.Also that they are not going to run into compressed loads on the top end. I run through powder combos with the bullet I want to shoot. I look for triangulated groups and after I find the tightest shooting powder combo, I work on charge weight to tune the group. Last I work on bullet seating depth. All the while Im fireforming my brass.

 

[insectguy]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

My thoughts are a little different-- I look at load workup as the fun part! I love changing a variable to see what happens, and then verify again. Perhaps I'm just strange.

 

[vman]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

maddoc, thankyou for the kind words my friend

I too find that load development is ongoing, and often ones throat erodes away and seating depth eventually changes regardless especially with barrel burners, so in that sense most useful barrel life should end up with minor seating depth changes thru its life.

My suggestions are useful for someone that has a caliber that is typically shooting above 3000 FPS and with high pressure magnum loads.

A .204 Ruger for example which fires between 4,050 to 4,200 FPS will very quickly smash through a barrel. So for those wanting to get the most out of their barrel, doing some homework is perhaps a smart way to shoot that barrel out without wasting half of it on determining which projectiles are good.

The beauty about ballistics is that it is mainly just science, and whats even more beautiful is the fact that their are dedicated individuals out there that provide us with BC's and calculators... all of the hard work is done for us.

This forum is most deffinately a help and an asset in itself. By simply lurking around one can gain a sense of what shoots well, what powder fits best and which brass is the finest, without ever having to experience it firsthand.

 

[craigp40]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

I probably stumble upon what I'm looking for around the 50 round mark. I do a lot of research before I even start though and use a chrono the entire time. If I'm having problems and jumping around with bullets and powder, it certainly goes higher but doesn't happen too often.

 

[marduk185]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

it never ends so i gotta say, "all of them" is the answer

 

[blue_ridge]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

XTR, I agree about the 308. Barrels may be consumables, but at $300 + gunsmith fee to chamber and install, it is a pretty expensive consumable! That time and money is much better spent, (for me anyway) shooting the same rig for an extra couple of years. After I spend the time on initial load work up, I want to enjoy having this rig dialed in to the point that I am purely shooting. I want to be focusing on what long range shooting is all about and getting better at it.

There's nothing wroing with any other chambering, each to his own. But there is some wisdom with all the people who stick to 308 despite decades of long range experience and dozens of cartridges with better down range performance. It seems 308 offers some peace of mind in a quite a few different ways.

With load development, I think you can't worry too much about round count. But since there is a TON of 308 load data with every component imaginable, so it is easy to narrow down your list to a powder or two and a bullet or two for your intended use. Then you look at a manual, note the starting and max loads, note the loads most often reported to do well on the boards here, note the COAL length you have to work with and your barrel twist. After that, the bullet, powder combination is probably not far off from what will work best. And if it is far off, no big deal, you have a 308 so the barrel will last and a great load is not far way.

 

[cmh2007]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

it took me about 16 rounds to find something to work with. i think i'll load up with the same charge and just vary the seating depth. so i am looking at about 30 rounds total.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

in theory doing a ladder test of 20, find sweet zone, load bout 10 more to confirm, say round 30? hows I be doin it

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

P.S. I just worked up a load and hafta go change me shorts, damned kenda avatar

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

Most of the time I can find, what I call a "sweet spot" load, in about 25 rounds or less. With researching the caliber and bullet combination, you can easily find where you need to be on the test charge weights. The trick is to doing the research on your caliber with the bullet you plan to shoot. From there, select the "best" powder for your application. "Best" could mean a slightly faster burning powder to function in a gas gun, or a slower powder to maximize velocity in a long barreled bolt gun. If you plan to shoot a VLD type bullet, seat it close to or just touching the lands. If you can't seat a VLD at or near the lands, look at a SMK or Scenar (or similar). They will tolerate a jump, and are not as seating depth sensitive. There is TONS of reloading data on the net, whether it be on the Hide or on each powder/bullet manufactures website.

I have never used the ladder test method because it takes many more rounds to find a sweet spot load than your old school load work up method, which I use. Plus, I can get the exact same data from shooting 5 round groups with increasing varying powder charges. I'll load 5 rounds in 5 groups. When shooting at 300 yards, you can see where the group prints in relation to the other groups to notice any POI change from load to load. And now I have actual data on how tight this load shoots, and know the velocity extreme of each test group. Often times I will shoot a group and after the 3rd round, I will see this group is not the load I'm looking for, and will not shoot the next two rounds. That saves you 2 rounds. My goal is to find the "sweet spot" load in as few rounds a possible for a rifle with 1 trip to the range. Sometimes I can find it in 15 rounds, other times it may take 2 trips to the range and 35-45 rounds of ammo. Each caliber with a certain bullet weight has a sweet spot where it will shoot the best. Once you research this info, apply it to your test loads and go shoot them. But, your rifle needs to be up to par, and the scope/rings/bases need to be 100%. And shooting form needs to be very consistent with good accurate trigger pulls.

So, most calibers should take about 25 rounds to dial in a certain load. With a little research and luck, you can dial one in with fewer rounds.

 

[samnev]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

When I first started loading 308 for my TRG 22 I first read everthing I could find on load combos on the board here. Then talked to the shooters at my club who shot 308. Their comments mirrored waht was posted here. I started with Varget and 4895 before settling on 4895. Overall testing took between 80 & 100 rounds. Haven't changed my load since then.

 

[CK_32]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

Seriously who gives a F..

A barrel is going to last you years unless you shoot 10000 of rounds a week. Don't even worry about it.. Would you rather have a new barrel and not hit anything with an inaccurate load of get hits every time with a used up barrel...

Thats why you bought a dam PRECISION rifle in the first place isnt it?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

For me, a new barrel means a new load.

One choice of brass, bullet, primer, and powder. OAL max listed by bullet maker. Published max load less 10%, 1 round each increment .3gr apart working up, for scope zero, pressure test, and initial rounds through the barrel. Separate aimpoint for each round, try to get some idea of trends in vertical. Find charge with least vertical just above and below, build 6 rounds of each of these three increments.

Test fire in round robin sequence, 2 aimpoints for each increment. If something shakes out relatively well below 1MOA, you've got a load. Else, explore the additional increments upward between current and what the pressure signs say is a comfortable max.

Good is good; trying for perfect is a very good way to waste bore life. 'Perfect' loads tend to be finicky and vulnerable to weather, etc. Good loads will do the same but the difference will be a lot smaller overall etc. The last thing a shooter needs is to be needlessly frustrated over perfomance inconsistencies that really don't amount to very much overall.

Greg

 

[vman]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For me, a new barrel means a new load.

Good is good; trying for perfect is a very good way to waste bore life. 'Perfect' loads tend to be finicky and vulnerable to weather, etc. Good loads will do the same but the difference will be a lot smaller overall etc. The last thing a shooter needs is to be needlessly frustrated over perfomance inconsistencies that really don't amount to very much overall.

</div></div>

All true.

For people with barrel burners, its worth learning the art of handloading on a .308win or .223 FIRST so that you can become efficient in how you find that load. Once you have the processes down you can easily apply them to any caliber.

I for one would not want to waste 10-20% of usefull barrel life trying to determine a good load for barrel burner caliber.

Waste of barrel, waste of ammo and waste of time.

Learn quickly and spend more time pulling the trigger on targets that mean something.

 

[42769vette]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

im not sure it ever stops. im always trying new things, but i do get a go back to load in about 70 rds

 

[bignada]

Re: How many rounds does it take to work up a load?

Use Sierra Bullet.
Call Sierra Techs.
Use their Match Load...
Play with seating depth and start with bullet touching lands.

Work on your bench technique. Use square aiming point. Zero on one corner of aiming point. Got a decent trigger? With .308 or lighter recoiling rifle should obtain .75" five round groups or much smaller, w/o backing out bullet diameter...

When you can shoot this fashion consistently, then begin "tailoring your load" or why bother? Think you gonna have a Hart rest and rear bunny bag to shoot from in the field?

If you have a 6mm or 6.5mm hot ctg, especially any 65gr+ powder burning magnum, don't waste your barrel on "load development".