How much magnification

[Skok3y]

Tried to keep this short and focused on the amount of useful magnification needed and actually mag used in Precision Rimfire Matches and Marksmen Challenge style matches.

Monthly Precision matches are from the bench 20 targets each from 50/100/150 yds. The best shooters only average missing 2 at the most from 150. There is a tactical division as well with all the usual odd stances. Probably will try out a little of each to see what I really enjoy most. Quarterly matches are the Marksmen Challenge type with the mix of bench, positional, matchsticks, playing cards, etc.

I have seen people say you don’t need more than 14x and others saying you can’t have too much. If I assume that I will play in the 10-14 range in the tactical type portions, and probably go higher in the matches from the bench.

I’ve never had more than 3-9 type scopes for hunting and plinking, so I’m curious how to approach a new scope for this. If I get a 3-15 type (maybe PST GenII), How will it be shooting when staying at the top of the range? Would I be better served going with the 5-25, so I don’t have to max it out? Would I regret not going for even more mag for the weekends solely on the bench, and be better served still going with something with even more mag?

I prefer to stay in the $800-1000 range so it knocks a lot out. I can see you guys know scopes and 22s, so I appreciate your thoughts. I tried to word this more to focus on the magnification selection and less on brands. Thanks!!

 

[natdscott]

Bushnell ET2164 or better equivalent. Kelbly rings.

-Nate

 

[BlackFenix]

I have a Bushnell ERS 3.5-21 that would definitely do the job if you want something in that range. It is in the PX and I have it for sale for $1150. Send me a PM if you want more information. https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/fs-clean-bushnell-ers-3-5-21-g2.6858650/#post-6877773

 

[Skok3y]

At this point I’m really looking more for magnification suggestions and why, more than specific models. I’ve seen lots of model suggestions, but trying to understand the magnification justifications of those suggestions.

I am trying to nail down my requirements, so that I can make the best decision possible.

 

[Skok3y]

Looks like I have one vote for each mag range at this point. Can you tell me why you suggest those ranges? Thanks for the help!

 

[TheGerman]

How big are the targets at 150, just curious.

I shoot a 4.5" diamond at 300 with a 4-16 optic without any issues. The problem with magnification is the more you get over 10x when theres mirage, it gets worse and worse.

 

[BlackFenix]

At this point I’m really looking more for magnification suggestions and why, more than specific models. I’ve seen lots of model suggestions, but trying to understand the magnification justifications of those suggestions.

I am trying to nail down my requirements, so that I can make the best decision possible.

That is a smart move! I will also be interested to hear what other say. My experience is with shooting a centerfire out to 1000 so I don't know that I will be much help. Sorry.

 

[Skok3y]

How big are the targets at 150, just curious.

I shoot a 4.5" diamond at 300 with a 4-16 optic without any issues. The problem with magnification is the more you get over 10x when theres mirage, it gets worse and worse.

Good question. Smallest are 3” circle and 4” IDPA.

 

[natdscott]

Did you look up the model I suggested? It wasn't to say that IS THE scope, it was to say that any equivalent or better will get you hits. I shoot Rimfire Silo to 100 meters. At 40 meters, I leave the scope on 12x to reduce perceived movement (this is all offhand). At 60, 77, and 100 meters, I use 12-16x, depending on conditions. That mag range does not cause misses.

In PRONE LR silhouette, I mostly leave the scope on 14-16x from 75 yards through 165. Again, that's plenty of mag to get hits and move quickly, but doesn't cut so far into my field of view that I cannot watch wind indicators across the range, and spot other shooter's misses such that I might avoid shooting in a poor condition myself.

 

[natdscott]

Oh. And 3" targets at 150 yards are no joke. I suggest you make a scope decision quickly, and start testing ammo.

Save budget for a significant number of match ammunition types to test, because that will matter more than fine differences in magnification.

Guarantee it.

 

[Skok3y]

Did you look up the model I suggested? It wasn't to say that IS THE scope, it was to say that any equivalent or better will get you hits.

Thanks for the suggestion, and extra details. I did check it out, and I thought that was where you might be going. Because the first two posts mentioned specific scopes, I wanted to make sure I was clear what I was looking for. I appreciate the input.

 

[Skok3y]

Oh. And 3" targets at 150 yards are no joke. I suggest you make a scope decision quickly, and start testing ammo.

Save budget for a significant number of match ammunition types to test, because that will matter more than fine differences in magnification.

Guarantee it.

No joke for sure!! Can’t do it consistently with my squirrel setup, so that is why I am working on this one. Luckily Outdoor Limited is close by for ammo, so I don’t have to pay their shipping, but do have to pay the tax. They have some good prices and usually have most of the good stuff in stock.

Appreciate the input again. Upgrading the barrel (haven’t done it yet) and the ammo will get me the most. Just taking one step at a time, and trying to make sure I go about it the right way, and ask the right questions.

 

[Maxduty]

I shoot an old 8-32x. With a couple of spotters, I'm good to 500 yards

 

[Skok3y]

Won’t be any 500yd shots for this guy! I don’t have anywhere like that to shoot, and I’m not sure I would even try with a 22. I can’t even imagine trying it.

 

[Maxduty]

Steel target only my friend. It pretty much sounds like a rock thrown at steel and doesn't even swing the hangers.

 

[Hairy Biker]

I have been using my 22x NXS but would like to try my 40x March sometime out to 200.

 

[Skok3y]

All steel. Only one paper but doesn’t really count for your question, but Last year included a first round of Marksmen Challenge Match, and it was cold bore “on paper” after 15 jumping jacks, some off number yardage over 100. So yeah, all steel.

 

[Skok3y]

Sorry, monthly tactical targets sizes are all the same as what everyone else is shooting from bench, so scores are about 1/2-2/3 of the other groups. Less than handful of people participate in that.

Targets are (I think)
50: 3”-1.5” circle
100: 5”-3” IDPA
150:6”-4” IDPA and 3” circle

 

[Skok3y]

I have been using my 22x NXS but would like to try my 40x March sometime out to 200.

At what point do you wish you had more mag?

 

[Itsadryheat]

I have a 12x Optic Kahles and it’s more than enough for anything out to 1000 + yards...
For 150 in I would think that a 8 or 10x would be sufficient...get a great field of view to pick up targets fast and enough magnification to get the job done...

 

[Hairy Biker]

Sling shooting I like to use 10 power but bipod I prefer 25 to 30 range. With rim fire I am finding I can go higher power without being disturbed by the recoil. Good for that fine hold on little dots...

 

[bunsen27]

Tried to keep this short and focused on the amount of useful magnification needed and actually mag used in Precision Rimfire Matches and Marksmen Challenge style matches.

Monthly Precision matches are from the bench 20 targets each from 50/100/150 yds. The best shooters only average missing 2 at the most from 150. There is a tactical division as well with all the usual odd stances. Probably will try out a little of each to see what I really enjoy most. Quarterly matches are the Marksmen Challenge type with the mix of bench, positional, matchsticks, playing cards, etc.

I have seen people say you don’t need more than 14x and others saying you can’t have too much. If I assume that I will play in the 10-14 range in the tactical type portions, and probably go higher in the matches from the bench.

I’ve never had more than 3-9 type scopes for hunting and plinking, so I’m curious how to approach a new scope for this. If I get a 3-15 type (maybe PST GenII), How will it be shooting when staying at the top of the range? Would I be better served going with the 5-25, so I don’t have to max it out? Would I regret not going for even more mag for the weekends solely on the bench, and be better served still going with something with even more mag?

I prefer to stay in the $800-1000 range so it knocks a lot out. I can see you guys know scopes and 22s, so I appreciate your thoughts. I tried to word this more to focus on the magnification selection and less on brands. Thanks!!

I've always adhered to the philosophy, "it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it", when it comes to scope magnification. I typically run 20x or 24x as the top end for my rimfire rifles.

A very common scope you will see at that match you are planning to shoot is the Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44 or 50. It's been discontinued for a few years, but you could still purchase from Camerland NY as of last year. However, it looks like Cameraland NY is no longer a Vortex dealer as of 2018!? (WTF)

Although you could probably get by with 14x, 15x, or 16x I'd opt for the higher magnification considering the lighting, shadows, and target background on that specific range.

For those asking target size and trying to visualize what this match consists of here is a video of the 100yd stage on the old range. The new range used for this match is narrower and surrounded by older growth trees:

 

[Skok3y]

I've always adhered to the philosophy, "it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it", when it comes to scope magnification. I typically run 20x or 24x as the top end for my rimfire rifles.

A very common scope you will see at that match you are planning to shoot is the Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44 or 50. It's been discontinued for a few years, but you could still purchase from Camerland NY as of last year. However, it looks like Cameraland NY is no longer a Vortex dealer as of 2018!? (WTF)

Although you could probably get by with 14x, 15x, or 16x I'd opt for the higher magnification considering the lighting, shadows, and target background on that specific range.

For those asking target size and trying to visualize what this match consists of here is a video of the 100yd stage on the old range. The new range used for this match is narrower and surrounded by older growth trees:

I appreciate the input. Just moved down this way and found this over winter. I’ve only been looking at the pictures and match scores. Seems like a friendly group. Can’t wait to meet new people.

I think this seems like the mag range I’m leaning toward. I can get the 14-16 range I may stay in a lot without maxing out, and still have a little in reserve when I need some more.

 

[Skok3y]

“Most people can’t.” That is for sure. She is a shooter!

 

[quickdraw]

I run 5-25 mag on my 22's. Most of the time in the NRL22 matches I have the mag set around 13-18X depending of the distances and width of targets layout side to side. I helps to get a better FOV for quick target acquisition. Paper stages where I'm on on target or sometimes with 1moa targets it is nice to dial up to 25X for a more precise shot. A good switchview is also important with this magnification span to make magnification changes quicker.

 

[Skok3y]

I really appreciate the input everyone. This has been really good to help me nail down what I want in the mag spec. The specific examples of what people are using and why is exactly what I was hoping for.

 

[steve123]

It's all about self spotting for me, in which case 40x is enough. In the 22 tactical matches I've shot 10x was as low as I went.

I use a 3-20x50 right now and on certain paper stages I was wishing for more mag because once in a while a hole would go through the thick black ring so I'd have to make a guess where it went. On steel 20x is fine, So far I haven't ran across a situation where I couldn't see where I hit on a steel that had a decent amount of paint left on it.

Thinking strongly of putting my Athlon Cronus BTR 4.5-29x56 on the 22. I prefer more magnification now after shooting more 22 matches.

The Athlon Ares BTR 4.5-27x50 falls right in your budget. A friend has one. It's one of those scopes that offers a lot in that price range!

 

[Skok3y]

Thanks Steve. The Ares is what I think I am leaning towards after plugging the info into my spreadsheet. If Cabelas had the Cronos on sale like they did before, I would throw the gift cards at it and jump on it in a heartbeat.

The PST is right with it for me, but I think the extra mag can only help. Hopefully, that can offset some of the negative in the turrets.

 

[Tactical Taz]

I shot the December NRL22 match with the Ares BTR 4.5-27x50. I thought it was going to be too much since I switched it from another long range rifle but after using it I really liked it for 22. I found it helpful to zoom in and see the small spinners after they had been shot and turned grey against the shadows. For the money the glass is pretty good too. I think I will keep using this for 22 matches in the future.

 

[TheGerman]

All of it.

 

[STS45]

Bushnell ET2164 or better equivalent. Kelbly rings.

-Nate

What does the parallax adjust down to?

 

[Skok3y]

What does the parallax adjust down to?

Pretty sure I saw 25 meters when I looked it up.

 

[my human host]

Whatever magnification you need to get a reasonably detailed reading of the mirage and spot your shots. Glass quality will influence the amount of magnification you'll need to accomplish this, as will your eyes.

For reference, I use a 4-16 gen 1 PST and have no problems at 200yds.

 

[Hairy Biker]

Went out yesterday to try some more different ammo at 50m. I am sad to say the NXS is not cutting it on the paper target front, with a great deal of blue light reflected around the white numbers on the black paper at 22 power. Focus was fine, but the blue shadow prevented a fine hold.

Switching to the March and using it at 40 power (not a fair comparison I know) showed up the weave of the paper and showed no blue fringing.

 

[natdscott]

Went out yesterday to try some more different ammo at 50m. I am sad to say the NXS is not cutting it on the paper target front, with a great deal of blue light reflected around the white numbers on the black paper at 22 power. Focus was fine, but the blue shadow prevented a fine hold.

Switching to the March and using it at 40 power (not a fair comparison I know) showed up the weave of the paper and showed no blue fringing.

Um. What kind of groups are you trying to shoot, and were you shooting on bull-type targets?

 

[Hairy Biker]

Um. What kind of groups are you trying to shoot, and were you shooting on bull-type targets?

Um - 5 shot groups and printed targets. What it means is that there will be two NXS up for sale soon. They have failed me in hunting and they have failed me at close range target shooting.

So to get back to the OP's question, 22x on the NXS is adequate to start but greater flexibility is available and I am seeing cross overs with long range tactical shooting where the 25x average zoom is useful.

 

[Skok3y]

Thanks Hairy. Those were some good explanations for your results. That is very helpful

 

[RTH1800]

I suggest something in the 20-25x range for the top end. Another thing to consider is some RF applications require a near focus precision that is not available on all scopes.

 

[Skok3y]

I suggest something in the 20-25x range for the top end. Another thing to consider is some RF applications require a near focus precision that is not available on all scopes.

Beside cost, that has been the biggest determining factor in narrowing down the models actually. I was surprised by the number of good scopes that were knocked out of my option list based on that criteria.

 

[Skok3y]

Can anyone link to a good video or pictures of short yardage views thru a scope in the 15-25x mag range? I don’t really care which scope, just something in the 25-50yd range. The only ones that I seem to find are 100yds or more.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Most people over power a target.

 

[natdscott]

Most people over power a target.

Yes indeed. They also believe that image quality in a scope is directly related to how well they group on target, score on it, etc. It's a good example of a software problem resulting in people repeatedly buying hardware "solutions". More focus on using the entire reticle carefully to generate a centered sight picture solves a lot of the resolution "problems" in people's groups. When you get into field shooting and identification of targets at long range, that is a different matter, but at rimfire ranges on paper targets, the requirements are not March.



...but wtf do I know. I'm just a hill-jack shooting 1/2 Minute with irons.

Um.
-Nate

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Yes indeed. They also believe that image quality in a scope is directly related to how well they group on target, score on it, etc. It's a good example of a software problem resulting in people repeatedly buying hardware "solutions". More focus on using the entire reticle carefully to generate a centered sight picture solves a lot of the resolution "problems" in people's groups. When you get into field shooting and identification of targets at long range, that is a different matter, but at rimfire ranges on paper targets, the requirements are not March.



...but wtf do I know. I'm just a hill-jack shooting 1/2 Minute with irons.

Um.
-Nate

Yep, I've used 8x to a grand on MOA targets an was in the top 5% many times, an won it twice. If one can quarter a MOA target with the cross hair, using more power will not make you a better shooter or improve your score most of the time.

 

[Lowlight]

SH Youtube Channel, odds are, it's in there

 

[Skok3y]

Thanks Lowlight. I hadn’t seen that it but it fits the idea I had going into this. It answers the original question about maxing out at 15-18 or getting a little more to help when on paper or spotting. This lines up perfectly with much of the great help and advice I have received.

 

[Hairy Biker]

Good to hear the conversation has been useful. As with all things, this should be the start of the journey not the end and equipment choices will likely change over time.

I know I am reconsidering a lot of what I thought about 22 Tactical as a result of these exchanges!

 

[Skok3y]

It has also taught me to try out a few, because like the rifles they go on, what I think I need/want probably isn’t what I thought it would be.

 

[Hairy Biker]

Ahh Seth. The quickest way to start a bar brawl on the Inter-web is to say you have a personal preference for a style of scope in your shooting. It brings flame fingers out faster than the call of "fight" in a school yard!

Fact of the matter is we are at a tipping point in firearms development. The old, comfortable ways of the 40s to 90s are less relevant in 2018 and change is always seen as a threat by some.

Whatever. Go, shoot, enjoy what you do. Somewhere, someone on the Internet will have an negative opinion but that means nothing because they are not you.

Which is why I will try a 40 power scope on the rimfire to push my personal boundaries and the the capabilities of the equipment. It might work, it might not but at least I got up from the keyboard and tried!

 

[natdscott]

What does the parallax adjust down to?

Oops. Sorry...forgot to answer, but...

Pretty sure I saw 25 meters when I looked it up.

...nope.

The ET2164 focuses down to 10 yards.

 

[DXT_Shooter]

I shot the December NRL22 match with the Ares BTR 4.5-27x50. I thought it was going to be too much since I switched it from another long range rifle but after using it I really liked it for 22. I found it helpful to zoom in and see the small spinners after they had been shot and turned grey against the shadows. For the money the glass is pretty good too. I think I will keep using this for 22 matches in the future.

Do you have problems with reticle covering small targets like toothpicks or matchsticks at say 25 yards at 27 power? I like to shoot these things and thinking a Sightron 10-50x60 with SFP would be better because the reticle stays small at any magnification.

Thanks