First off, I am as guilty of this as anyone. But lately I have been thinking that I need to reconsider my choices. There was a day when Weaver, Redfield and Leupold was the top of the line in optics. Now it seems everyone, me included jump on the first optics line with a snazzy name, Vortex, Falcon Menace, Barska, Counter Sniper, Osprey. People are standing in line for optics that have not even been released yet let alone proven in the field. we don't think twice about paying $600 to $1000 for a scope we have never even looked through but we won't spend the money on a Burris, Weaver or Leupold. Know where the money goes for the offbrand scopes, overseas. Sure U.S. optics companies have cut their quality but ask yourself why. To compete with Chinese labor and parts, they are trying to survive too. Maybe if we spent our money on scopes made at home and stop buying overeseas optics our own companies would not have to cut corners. Sure I know you say it's all about the bottom line but what isn't? I for one am ashamed of myself for not support the companies in our own country and from this moment on will buy optics only made in the good old USA.
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Rifle Scopes How quickly we forget and abandon
- Thread starter startrek
- Start date
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
What you're saying is noble and all but the truth of the matter is that most people here buy scopes because it has a particular set of features that they are looking for. In my opinion it's foolish to purchase a scope that you know might be sub-par because you hope that one day the company might sell enough of them so that they can stop cutting corners. Because while you're waiting for their product to improve you'll still be stuck with a sub-par piece of shit from a company that has a great warranty and customer service that you'll probably have to use at some point.
What you're saying is noble and all but the truth of the matter is that most people here buy scopes because it has a particular set of features that they are looking for. In my opinion it's foolish to purchase a scope that you know might be sub-par because you hope that one day the company might sell enough of them so that they can stop cutting corners. Because while you're waiting for their product to improve you'll still be stuck with a sub-par piece of shit from a company that has a great warranty and customer service that you'll probably have to use at some point.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
I buy a scope to help me, not the manufacturer.
You buy Barksa and Counter Snipers? No wonder you're rethinking your purchasing decisions.
I buy a scope to help me, not the manufacturer.
You buy Barksa and Counter Snipers? No wonder you're rethinking your purchasing decisions.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: startrek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, I am as guilty of this as anyone. But lately I have been thinking that I need to reconsider my choices. There was a day when Weaver, Redfield and Leupold was the top of the line in optics. Now it seems everyone, me included jump on the first optics line with a snazzy name, Vortex, Falcon Menace, Barska, Counter Sniper, Osprey. People are standing in line for optics that have not even been released yet let alone proven in the field. we don't think twice about paying $600 to $1000 for a scope we have never even looked through but we won't spend the money on a Burris, Weaver or Leupold. Know where the money goes for the offbrand scopes, overseas. Sure U.S. optics companies have cut their quality but ask yourself why. To compete with Chinese labor and parts, they are trying to survive too. Maybe if we spent our money on scopes made at home and stop buying overeseas optics our own companies would not have to cut corners. Sure I know you say it's all about the bottom line but what isn't? I for one am ashamed of myself for not support the companies in our own country and from this moment on will buy optics only made in the good old USA. </div></div>
I'm not sure that too many people are running out to buy Barska, Counter Sniper and Osprey optics.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: startrek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, I am as guilty of this as anyone. But lately I have been thinking that I need to reconsider my choices. There was a day when Weaver, Redfield and Leupold was the top of the line in optics. Now it seems everyone, me included jump on the first optics line with a snazzy name, Vortex, Falcon Menace, Barska, Counter Sniper, Osprey. People are standing in line for optics that have not even been released yet let alone proven in the field. we don't think twice about paying $600 to $1000 for a scope we have never even looked through but we won't spend the money on a Burris, Weaver or Leupold. Know where the money goes for the offbrand scopes, overseas. Sure U.S. optics companies have cut their quality but ask yourself why. To compete with Chinese labor and parts, they are trying to survive too. Maybe if we spent our money on scopes made at home and stop buying overeseas optics our own companies would not have to cut corners. Sure I know you say it's all about the bottom line but what isn't? I for one am ashamed of myself for not support the companies in our own country and from this moment on will buy optics only made in the good old USA. </div></div>
I'm not sure that too many people are running out to buy Barska, Counter Sniper and Osprey optics.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
startrek
I am afraid you got it backwards. 'US' companies are turning out crap because people buy their products. If people didn't buy these made in China, use once and throw away scopes then they would either go out of business or be forced to make a reliable scope. The main problem is most of these scopes are sold to people who buy a scope because of price or because of loyalty to a brand name that they assume means quality ( Leupold, etc. ), which is unfounded. Some people will always buy a cheap scope, if they are happy with it, it's ok. Not everyone can afford, need, or justify spending the money for a quality scope. PR and USO make good scopes so US quality scopes are possible.
david
startrek
I am afraid you got it backwards. 'US' companies are turning out crap because people buy their products. If people didn't buy these made in China, use once and throw away scopes then they would either go out of business or be forced to make a reliable scope. The main problem is most of these scopes are sold to people who buy a scope because of price or because of loyalty to a brand name that they assume means quality ( Leupold, etc. ), which is unfounded. Some people will always buy a cheap scope, if they are happy with it, it's ok. Not everyone can afford, need, or justify spending the money for a quality scope. PR and USO make good scopes so US quality scopes are possible.
david
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
IMHO, companies like Leopold have bailed on the consumers! They have not kept up with the competition, while they have moved more and more of there operation off-shore. The same is true of most U.S. manufactures though. Kinda funny how every one complains about not buying American made, but what is American made anymore? As far as I know, even on the models that are assembled in the U.S., the glass is out-sourced. And only a few of there models are assembled here.
IMHO, companies like Leopold have bailed on the consumers! They have not kept up with the competition, while they have moved more and more of there operation off-shore. The same is true of most U.S. manufactures though. Kinda funny how every one complains about not buying American made, but what is American made anymore? As far as I know, even on the models that are assembled in the U.S., the glass is out-sourced. And only a few of there models are assembled here.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: startrek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, I am as guilty of this as anyone. But lately I have been thinking that I need to reconsider my choices.</div></div>
Buy top of the line and you won't need to reconsider your choices unless the mission changes.
If you are only going to buy "Made in the USA" optics then you can write off most of the middle tier of scope manufacturers. Also you won't be buying too many Leupolds since the vast majority of them are imports.
If you want a "Made in USA" scope, then you need to save your pennies for a USO or one of the Nightforce models made here. You also better add some cash to that $1000 budget.
Now I am happy to say that with the exception of the Harris Bipod, EVERYTHING on my duty rifle including the scope is Made in the USA.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: startrek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, I am as guilty of this as anyone. But lately I have been thinking that I need to reconsider my choices.</div></div>
Buy top of the line and you won't need to reconsider your choices unless the mission changes.
If you are only going to buy "Made in the USA" optics then you can write off most of the middle tier of scope manufacturers. Also you won't be buying too many Leupolds since the vast majority of them are imports.
If you want a "Made in USA" scope, then you need to save your pennies for a USO or one of the Nightforce models made here. You also better add some cash to that $1000 budget.
Now I am happy to say that with the exception of the Harris Bipod, EVERYTHING on my duty rifle including the scope is Made in the USA.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
Except for the glass! Last I heard,EVERY U.S. scope manufacture out-sourced their glass.
Except for the glass! Last I heard,EVERY U.S. scope manufacture out-sourced their glass.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
IIRC John from USO stated that the raw glass was outsourced but it was ground in the US.
IIRC John from USO stated that the raw glass was outsourced but it was ground in the US.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
There was a time that Redfield was on everything I owned, because of it's quality compared to others of the day. Then it was Leupold, up until the 2nd 3rd an 4th Mk4 issue. Then I looked at <span style="font-weight: bold">All </span> the others an went to USO (Made in the USA) as they had the <span style="font-weight: bold">Retical </span> I wanted, the amount of <span style="font-weight: bold">Elev an windage </span> I wanted, and a level of customer thats still unequal'ed. Do I care where the money ends up yes, but if I can't get an American made product that fits my requirements, I'll fund whomever, and never think twice about it.
The Mfg'ers needs to understand, there are alot of folks that will pay for what they need or want, instead of blindly buying off the shelf. Theres more money to be made in specialty, know matter product. Most board rooms are so out of touch with their customers it's unreal.
If S&B built a scope that had a good IPHY retical, an 1/2 IPHY knobs I'd be looking hard at those as well. The Customer is paying the freight, an USO knows and exploits that fact, that is why I'll keep buying from them.
Yes I understand neither of my choices are cheap, but what does it cost to keep changing scopes until you find one that works correctly, has the Retical an Knobs you want, to go to the range or field with? If your looking to fill a bench only slot you'll want something different than a hunting season slot vs a plinking slot. Myself, I want a scope that fits all the slots.
There was a time that Redfield was on everything I owned, because of it's quality compared to others of the day. Then it was Leupold, up until the 2nd 3rd an 4th Mk4 issue. Then I looked at <span style="font-weight: bold">All </span> the others an went to USO (Made in the USA) as they had the <span style="font-weight: bold">Retical </span> I wanted, the amount of <span style="font-weight: bold">Elev an windage </span> I wanted, and a level of customer thats still unequal'ed. Do I care where the money ends up yes, but if I can't get an American made product that fits my requirements, I'll fund whomever, and never think twice about it.
The Mfg'ers needs to understand, there are alot of folks that will pay for what they need or want, instead of blindly buying off the shelf. Theres more money to be made in specialty, know matter product. Most board rooms are so out of touch with their customers it's unreal.
If S&B built a scope that had a good IPHY retical, an 1/2 IPHY knobs I'd be looking hard at those as well. The Customer is paying the freight, an USO knows and exploits that fact, that is why I'll keep buying from them.
Yes I understand neither of my choices are cheap, but what does it cost to keep changing scopes until you find one that works correctly, has the Retical an Knobs you want, to go to the range or field with? If your looking to fill a bench only slot you'll want something different than a hunting season slot vs a plinking slot. Myself, I want a scope that fits all the slots.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you want a "Made in USA" scope, then you need to save your pennies for a USO or one of the Nightforce models made here. You also better add some cash to that $1000 budget.
</div></div>
All NF scopes are assembled and QC'd in Idaho but only the F1 and Compact line have enough US parts to be labeled "Made In the USA". Still supporting US jobs by buying anyone of them though.
I'm with LoneWolf in all my stuff from NF F1 to Harris, which mine is marked USA, with Terry's PodLoc is made in the USA. Only the AI mags are not.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you want a "Made in USA" scope, then you need to save your pennies for a USO or one of the Nightforce models made here. You also better add some cash to that $1000 budget.
</div></div>
All NF scopes are assembled and QC'd in Idaho but only the F1 and Compact line have enough US parts to be labeled "Made In the USA". Still supporting US jobs by buying anyone of them though.
I'm with LoneWolf in all my stuff from NF F1 to Harris, which mine is marked USA, with Terry's PodLoc is made in the USA. Only the AI mags are not.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
what kind of patriotism is that Rob, not a complete "made in USA" rifle. You must throw the mags away now
To the OP leaps and bounds have been made in the optics industry. Leupold for example hasnt gotten with the times and with the Big Guys ( SB, USO, NF, Hensoldt) coming into the market and listening to customers on what they want an need throws a curve for the little guys. The little guys dont necassarily tailor to the "tactical" market of shooters. They are happy with selling the scopes to the recreational hunter who may shoot one box of ammo a year and call it good.
what kind of patriotism is that Rob, not a complete "made in USA" rifle. You must throw the mags away now
To the OP leaps and bounds have been made in the optics industry. Leupold for example hasnt gotten with the times and with the Big Guys ( SB, USO, NF, Hensoldt) coming into the market and listening to customers on what they want an need throws a curve for the little guys. The little guys dont necassarily tailor to the "tactical" market of shooters. They are happy with selling the scopes to the recreational hunter who may shoot one box of ammo a year and call it good.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: startrek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, I am as guilty of this as anyone. But lately I have been thinking that I need to reconsider my choices.</div></div>
Buy top of the line and you won't need to reconsider your choices unless the mission changes.
If you are only going to buy "Made in the USA" optics then you can write off most of the middle tier of scope manufacturers. Also you won't be buying too many Leupolds since the vast majority of them are imports.
If you want a "Made in USA" scope, then you need to save your pennies for a USO or one of the Nightforce models made here. You also better add some cash to that $1000 budget.
Now I am happy to say that with the exception of the Harris Bipod, EVERYTHING on my duty rifle including the scope is Made in the USA.
</div></div>
Where is the Harris bipod made?Did they quit manufacturing in Kentucky?The popular thing to do around here is pull the Harris bipods off the shelf,then replace the Harris with a Shooters Ridge brand.Then the store charges you the same as the Harris.Pure B.S..
van
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: startrek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, I am as guilty of this as anyone. But lately I have been thinking that I need to reconsider my choices.</div></div>
Buy top of the line and you won't need to reconsider your choices unless the mission changes.
If you are only going to buy "Made in the USA" optics then you can write off most of the middle tier of scope manufacturers. Also you won't be buying too many Leupolds since the vast majority of them are imports.
If you want a "Made in USA" scope, then you need to save your pennies for a USO or one of the Nightforce models made here. You also better add some cash to that $1000 budget.
Now I am happy to say that with the exception of the Harris Bipod, EVERYTHING on my duty rifle including the scope is Made in the USA.
Where is the Harris bipod made?Did they quit manufacturing in Kentucky?The popular thing to do around here is pull the Harris bipods off the shelf,then replace the Harris with a Shooters Ridge brand.Then the store charges you the same as the Harris.Pure B.S..
van
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
I wasn't sure if the Harris was made in the US since I couldn't fine any literature on it. Since mine is covered in krylon I didn't feel like scouring it for the markings.
ETA, tried to call Harris to confirm, but offices are closed.
I wasn't sure if the Harris was made in the US since I couldn't fine any literature on it. Since mine is covered in krylon I didn't feel like scouring it for the markings.
ETA, tried to call Harris to confirm, but offices are closed.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
I would disagree that Leupold is a little guy. I am taking a risk by assuming anything, but I would assume that Leupold sells more scopes than any of the others. I doubt it is even close. They may be a little guy in this niche of the market, but they are selling a lot of scopes.
I also have had great luck with Leupold, and I freely admit I am not as rough on my gear as many here, but neither is most of Leupold's targeted market.
I also think Leupy is in the process of stepping up their game WRT the tactical market. Time will tell.
I would disagree that Leupold is a little guy. I am taking a risk by assuming anything, but I would assume that Leupold sells more scopes than any of the others. I doubt it is even close. They may be a little guy in this niche of the market, but they are selling a lot of scopes.
I also have had great luck with Leupold, and I freely admit I am not as rough on my gear as many here, but neither is most of Leupold's targeted market.
I also think Leupy is in the process of stepping up their game WRT the tactical market. Time will tell.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
Hydro thats what i was getting at...Leupy, Bushnell, Nikon all sell a metric shit ton of "hunting" style scopes, but tactical scopes are not their strong point. And when they see an oppurtunity to possibly make some more money, they throw a sub par "tactical" scope into the market and it may be a great scope for a square range and no hard use, but the big guys are doing these "tactical" scopes pretty exclusively. While i do agree that Leupy probably sells more scopes than most, they have come of late to be less than what they used to be. Not to turn this into a Leupy debate, but they are riding out their reputation, and the tires are starting to go flat in the tactical line of scopes
Hydro thats what i was getting at...Leupy, Bushnell, Nikon all sell a metric shit ton of "hunting" style scopes, but tactical scopes are not their strong point. And when they see an oppurtunity to possibly make some more money, they throw a sub par "tactical" scope into the market and it may be a great scope for a square range and no hard use, but the big guys are doing these "tactical" scopes pretty exclusively. While i do agree that Leupy probably sells more scopes than most, they have come of late to be less than what they used to be. Not to turn this into a Leupy debate, but they are riding out their reputation, and the tires are starting to go flat in the tactical line of scopes
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
Thanks, but I'll take a British rifle with German optics any time.
If I only had a nickel for every time I heard the 'made in USA' argument from the 1970's oil crisis by someone who is trying to apply it to 21st century consumer economics.
Bushnell, Burris, Redfield, Leupold, and Weaver are no longer 'made in USA' companies. If they were, they would be out of business.
South American states function at half the wage levels of the USA. China functions at mid-nineteenth-century levels of wages, child labor laws and worker safety. A product manufactored in Mexico is still more competitive than one made in China. All this has put downward pressure on our economy because we compete with these exports.
There's no escaping the reality that our quest for economic growth here in the USA is now dependent upon our ownership and trading of capital aquired abroad: our economic success is dependent on acquisition of the production capabilities of others. That's why our quest for economies of scale has only led to increasing quantities of increasingly similar products.
There's no difference between consumer electronics and scopes in this regard: much of the material comes from the same place(s), and companies get the attention of consumers by producing almost identical products but packaged to appear dissimilar.
So, if you really want to create wealth here at home (but, of course, only for someone in corporate management) then buy the cheapest junk you can find made by a large US sporting optics company.
Otherwise, help the true optics industry by buying a premium scope.
Thanks, but I'll take a British rifle with German optics any time.
If I only had a nickel for every time I heard the 'made in USA' argument from the 1970's oil crisis by someone who is trying to apply it to 21st century consumer economics.
Bushnell, Burris, Redfield, Leupold, and Weaver are no longer 'made in USA' companies. If they were, they would be out of business.
South American states function at half the wage levels of the USA. China functions at mid-nineteenth-century levels of wages, child labor laws and worker safety. A product manufactored in Mexico is still more competitive than one made in China. All this has put downward pressure on our economy because we compete with these exports.
There's no escaping the reality that our quest for economic growth here in the USA is now dependent upon our ownership and trading of capital aquired abroad: our economic success is dependent on acquisition of the production capabilities of others. That's why our quest for economies of scale has only led to increasing quantities of increasingly similar products.
There's no difference between consumer electronics and scopes in this regard: much of the material comes from the same place(s), and companies get the attention of consumers by producing almost identical products but packaged to appear dissimilar.
So, if you really want to create wealth here at home (but, of course, only for someone in corporate management) then buy the cheapest junk you can find made by a large US sporting optics company.
Otherwise, help the true optics industry by buying a premium scope.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
Leupold is not the only folks, that think a name will hold. It took 30+ years but pay back is a bitch. In 1973 I went to buy a new Chevy C-30 work truck, was there any other truck when your a Chevy man? I was looking for certian, HP, gearing, ect. The sales man told me I'd buy what GM offered an like it. Bought my first Ford F-350 that day an never looked back, others went to Toyota, Honda, Datsun.
Leupold is not the only folks, that think a name will hold. It took 30+ years but pay back is a bitch. In 1973 I went to buy a new Chevy C-30 work truck, was there any other truck when your a Chevy man? I was looking for certian, HP, gearing, ect. The sales man told me I'd buy what GM offered an like it. Bought my first Ford F-350 that day an never looked back, others went to Toyota, Honda, Datsun.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...others went to Toyota, Honda, Datsun.</div></div>And now, unlike in the early 70's, when you buy a Honda or a Toyota you are creating jobs in the USA and directly helping the economies of the southern states.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...others went to Toyota, Honda, Datsun.</div></div>And now, unlike in the early 70's, when you buy a Honda or a Toyota you are creating jobs in the USA and directly helping the economies of the southern states.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
There's a lot more to it, the world you live in is a bit more complex.
There's a lot more to it, the world you live in is a bit more complex.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
I'll buy American if it's a quality product, if not, I'll buy elsewhere. I'm not going to arbitrarily stick with an "American" company if ts cutting corners everywhere possible to bring it's bottom line up. Not to mention made in the USA is just an advertising sticker on a box nowadays, it's so backwards and convaluted now, that you have no idea what is actually "made in the USA", or maybe I should say, what precentage is actually "made in the USA".
I'll buy American if it's a quality product, if not, I'll buy elsewhere. I'm not going to arbitrarily stick with an "American" company if ts cutting corners everywhere possible to bring it's bottom line up. Not to mention made in the USA is just an advertising sticker on a box nowadays, it's so backwards and convaluted now, that you have no idea what is actually "made in the USA", or maybe I should say, what precentage is actually "made in the USA".
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to mention made in the USA is just an advertising sticker on a box nowadays, it's so backwards and convaluted now, that you have no idea what is actually "made in the USA", or maybe I should say, what precentage is actually "made in the USA".</div></div>That's a good point, as there is no bureau of 'Made in the USA' standards, only commercial regulations based on assumptions not useful to - and not revelvant for - the consumer of the product.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to mention made in the USA is just an advertising sticker on a box nowadays, it's so backwards and convaluted now, that you have no idea what is actually "made in the USA", or maybe I should say, what precentage is actually "made in the USA".</div></div>That's a good point, as there is no bureau of 'Made in the USA' standards, only commercial regulations based on assumptions not useful to - and not revelvant for - the consumer of the product.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
Nothing is that simple - my Toyota truck is "Made in the USA", on the other hand most of the Dodge line is an import . . . including their trucks.
Back to scopes, I suspect that every scope has "import" parts and that "Made in the USA" is percentage based. The main reason for 100% made in the USA is marketing e.g. they want to sell you their scope solely based on the title "Made in the USA". In most industries the bean counters run the show, and cheap parts make them happy.
Flame suit on, go for it.
Ross
Nothing is that simple - my Toyota truck is "Made in the USA", on the other hand most of the Dodge line is an import . . . including their trucks.
Back to scopes, I suspect that every scope has "import" parts and that "Made in the USA" is percentage based. The main reason for 100% made in the USA is marketing e.g. they want to sell you their scope solely based on the title "Made in the USA". In most industries the bean counters run the show, and cheap parts make them happy.
Flame suit on, go for it.
Ross
G
Guest
Guest
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rossneder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In most industries the bean counters run the show, and cheap parts make them happy.</div></div>
And that folks has been the down fall of this country. We'll worry about next quarter, next year, 5 years from now, another time. Well guess what folks when the piped piper was playing that tune, America bought it, and now we poor slobs are paying for what we let them do to us.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rossneder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In most industries the bean counters run the show, and cheap parts make them happy.</div></div>
And that folks has been the down fall of this country. We'll worry about next quarter, next year, 5 years from now, another time. Well guess what folks when the piped piper was playing that tune, America bought it, and now we poor slobs are paying for what we let them do to us.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
I am all for supporting US products, but you have to understand our economy is fast turning into a global economy like it or not and its the CONSUMERS fault, not so much the companies (in this industry) Most US manufactures cannot survive without overseas labor because your US "competitor" (company B) has outsourced to china and can sell parts cheaper than you can make them. Company A has no choice but to outsource or downsize considerably OR go out of business. Company A most likely would rather keep the jobs in the US, but their customers dont care about jobs, dont care how or who make the product, how its made, and only care if its in stock so they can have it now and that it is cheaper than the other guys.
What makes your decision? Is it Quality or Price? Everyone has a balance and very few never ask for the price.
SB, USO, Premier and even nightforce arent anywhere as large of a company as Leupold AND they cater to different markets even though they all make "scopes". Leupold not listening to what? 2% of their customers (guys like you and me). Bubba isn't screaming for a 2000$ FFP mill/mill scope last i checked is he? What they do offer is a scope that fills a gap. Good enough for most and cheap enough to get the guy out of a true hunting scope.
Leupold DOES make allot of parts in the US contrary to belief. What would happen to them if all of a sudden their price went to SB/Premier level and quality went up even higher than anyone elses? Their sales would go down dramatically even if the quality was better!! Reason? Because the high end scope market is a very small portion of their customers. Doesn't make sense to spend millions to make thousands..
I am happy to say that every part that comes out of this shop is 100% USA made down to the screws and even raw material. Packaging who kows, but i dobut its usa. All of my CNC's are made in Japan because the US companies build cheaper quality machines. I try as hard as possible to keep everything in the US, but as you can see its not entirely possible.
Who made the keyboard you are typing on? Or the screen you are looking at? Shoes on your feet? We are all to blame. THIS is why we cannot compete in the US. We never will be able to until we are playing on a level field.
http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/
I am all for supporting US products, but you have to understand our economy is fast turning into a global economy like it or not and its the CONSUMERS fault, not so much the companies (in this industry) Most US manufactures cannot survive without overseas labor because your US "competitor" (company B) has outsourced to china and can sell parts cheaper than you can make them. Company A has no choice but to outsource or downsize considerably OR go out of business. Company A most likely would rather keep the jobs in the US, but their customers dont care about jobs, dont care how or who make the product, how its made, and only care if its in stock so they can have it now and that it is cheaper than the other guys.
What makes your decision? Is it Quality or Price? Everyone has a balance and very few never ask for the price.
SB, USO, Premier and even nightforce arent anywhere as large of a company as Leupold AND they cater to different markets even though they all make "scopes". Leupold not listening to what? 2% of their customers (guys like you and me). Bubba isn't screaming for a 2000$ FFP mill/mill scope last i checked is he? What they do offer is a scope that fills a gap. Good enough for most and cheap enough to get the guy out of a true hunting scope.
Leupold DOES make allot of parts in the US contrary to belief. What would happen to them if all of a sudden their price went to SB/Premier level and quality went up even higher than anyone elses? Their sales would go down dramatically even if the quality was better!! Reason? Because the high end scope market is a very small portion of their customers. Doesn't make sense to spend millions to make thousands..
I am happy to say that every part that comes out of this shop is 100% USA made down to the screws and even raw material. Packaging who kows, but i dobut its usa. All of my CNC's are made in Japan because the US companies build cheaper quality machines. I try as hard as possible to keep everything in the US, but as you can see its not entirely possible.
Who made the keyboard you are typing on? Or the screen you are looking at? Shoes on your feet? We are all to blame. THIS is why we cannot compete in the US. We never will be able to until we are playing on a level field.
http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Leupold not listening to what? 2% of their customers (guys like you and me). Bubba isn't screaming for a 2000$ FFP mill/mill scope last i checked is he? </div></div>
We tend to forget that we are not the norm . Most guys buy a rifle and 2 boxes of ammo and it takes them 5 years to shoot that up . A scope is just a sighting device to them nothing more or less . We really are just the 2%ers .
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Leupold not listening to what? 2% of their customers (guys like you and me). Bubba isn't screaming for a 2000$ FFP mill/mill scope last i checked is he? </div></div>
We tend to forget that we are not the norm . Most guys buy a rifle and 2 boxes of ammo and it takes them 5 years to shoot that up . A scope is just a sighting device to them nothing more or less . We really are just the 2%ers .
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
I completely agree with Glen.
"Leupold not listening to what? 2% of their customers (guys like you and me). Bubba isn't screaming for a 2000$ FFP mill/mill scope last i checked is he? "
Up untill about 6 months ago I was one of thoes people. Two years ago I went out, bought a 600$ Remington 700, a low end leupold 3x9 scope, and maybe 5 boxes of bullets. Put it all together, shot the first 3 boxes sighting it in and stored the rest for hunts. I still have one box. That leupold has done what I needed, and that is what most of the world needs. Not many want a 2000$ scope. Very few care about FFP. Most will live with a Mil/MOA.
I completely agree with Glen.
"Leupold not listening to what? 2% of their customers (guys like you and me). Bubba isn't screaming for a 2000$ FFP mill/mill scope last i checked is he? "
Up untill about 6 months ago I was one of thoes people. Two years ago I went out, bought a 600$ Remington 700, a low end leupold 3x9 scope, and maybe 5 boxes of bullets. Put it all together, shot the first 3 boxes sighting it in and stored the rest for hunts. I still have one box. That leupold has done what I needed, and that is what most of the world needs. Not many want a 2000$ scope. Very few care about FFP. Most will live with a Mil/MOA.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
I have to agree. I will buy the best quality I can afford. However if it costs a little more to get the same quality in an American product, then I will pay a little more when possible. That's just me.
When I have a choice I buy American. I thoroughly enjoy it when I can own a product made here that is top quality.
I have to agree. I will buy the best quality I can afford. However if it costs a little more to get the same quality in an American product, then I will pay a little more when possible. That's just me.
When I have a choice I buy American. I thoroughly enjoy it when I can own a product made here that is top quality.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hydro thats what i was getting at...Leupy, Bushnell, Nikon all sell a metric shit ton of "hunting" style scopes, but tactical scopes are not their strong point. And when they see an oppurtunity to possibly make some more money, they throw a sub par "tactical" scope into the market and it may be a great scope for a square range and no hard use, but the big guys are doing these "tactical" scopes pretty exclusively. While i do agree that Leupy probably sells more scopes than most, they have come of late to be less than what they used to be. Not to turn this into a Leupy debate, but they are riding out their reputation, and the tires are starting to go flat in the tactical line of scopes </div></div>
I gotcha Deadly. Pretty much agree.
I do think Leupold is addressing the issue though.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hydro thats what i was getting at...Leupy, Bushnell, Nikon all sell a metric shit ton of "hunting" style scopes, but tactical scopes are not their strong point. And when they see an oppurtunity to possibly make some more money, they throw a sub par "tactical" scope into the market and it may be a great scope for a square range and no hard use, but the big guys are doing these "tactical" scopes pretty exclusively. While i do agree that Leupy probably sells more scopes than most, they have come of late to be less than what they used to be. Not to turn this into a Leupy debate, but they are riding out their reputation, and the tires are starting to go flat in the tactical line of scopes </div></div>
I gotcha Deadly. Pretty much agree.
I do think Leupold is addressing the issue though.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...others went to Toyota, Honda, Datsun.</div></div>And now, unlike in the early 70's, when you buy a Honda or a Toyota you are creating jobs in the USA and directly helping the economies of the southern states. </div></div>
And directly impacting the flow of funds (through unions) to the greatest threat our Constitution has ever faced.
I am done buying UAW products.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...others went to Toyota, Honda, Datsun.</div></div>And now, unlike in the early 70's, when you buy a Honda or a Toyota you are creating jobs in the USA and directly helping the economies of the southern states. </div></div>
And directly impacting the flow of funds (through unions) to the greatest threat our Constitution has ever faced.
I am done buying UAW products.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...others went to Toyota, Honda, Datsun.</div></div>And now, unlike in the early 70's, when you buy a Honda or a Toyota you are creating jobs in the USA and directly helping the economies of the southern states. </div></div>
And directly impacting the flow of funds (through unions) to the greatest threat our Constitution has ever faced.
I am done buying UAW products. </div></div>
Me too, though the auto workers for Japanese cars made in the US are NOT unionized. That is why they can stay in business because they are not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water like UAW is. They're content to make a company dry and run it out of business if it means squeezing an extra $.03 an hour for UAW workers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...others went to Toyota, Honda, Datsun.</div></div>And now, unlike in the early 70's, when you buy a Honda or a Toyota you are creating jobs in the USA and directly helping the economies of the southern states. </div></div>
And directly impacting the flow of funds (through unions) to the greatest threat our Constitution has ever faced.
I am done buying UAW products. </div></div>
Me too, though the auto workers for Japanese cars made in the US are NOT unionized. That is why they can stay in business because they are not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water like UAW is. They're content to make a company dry and run it out of business if it means squeezing an extra $.03 an hour for UAW workers.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
The only products actually regulated are automobiles, textile, wool, and fur.
Now in regard to Buy American, like products purchased by the Federal government or for the Federal government , those products only need to meet the requirement of 50% either manufactured or assembled in the USA, but if the product is either not made in the USA or an American made product does not met the quality of a foreign product an exemption is made. To further the BS that befalls the Buy American standard, the shipping company, where the box and packing materials are made, and the shipping labels all count if they are made in the USA.
To put it in perspective, take that product that says made in the USA, let say a rifle scope; the scope itself, the box it came in, the label on the outside of the box, the plastic bag that it was enclosed in inside the box, the sunshade, the little cleaning cloth, the plastic lense caps, and even the bungie that attaches the bikini style lense caps. But wait there is more, we don't want to forget the larger box that it was shipped in and the packing peanuts, or the shipper that delivered it. All those things account for the totality of the 50% requirement.
The only products actually regulated are automobiles, textile, wool, and fur.
Now in regard to Buy American, like products purchased by the Federal government or for the Federal government , those products only need to meet the requirement of 50% either manufactured or assembled in the USA, but if the product is either not made in the USA or an American made product does not met the quality of a foreign product an exemption is made. To further the BS that befalls the Buy American standard, the shipping company, where the box and packing materials are made, and the shipping labels all count if they are made in the USA.
To put it in perspective, take that product that says made in the USA, let say a rifle scope; the scope itself, the box it came in, the label on the outside of the box, the plastic bag that it was enclosed in inside the box, the sunshade, the little cleaning cloth, the plastic lense caps, and even the bungie that attaches the bikini style lense caps. But wait there is more, we don't want to forget the larger box that it was shipped in and the packing peanuts, or the shipper that delivered it. All those things account for the totality of the 50% requirement.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
O i longed for a Mk4 for years when I got one, I was disappointed for what I payed versus what I got. Now that I have a Vortex(flashy name woooohoooo) Razor I couldnt be happierI think Ive received performance far higher than should be expected for the price paid. Now you wanna talk American comapanies? Call Vortex and see if you can find someone with an Idian accent, aint gonna happen. Family-owned, family-operated you wont find a more American company than Vortex. Burris, Weaver, Nikon and Leupold all wish they could hold the Razor's jock. I just haven't found a better optics company customer service wise and performance factor per dollar and that is the bottom line. To that end Vortex most definitely delivers.
O i longed for a Mk4 for years when I got one, I was disappointed for what I payed versus what I got. Now that I have a Vortex(flashy name woooohoooo) Razor I couldnt be happierI think Ive received performance far higher than should be expected for the price paid. Now you wanna talk American comapanies? Call Vortex and see if you can find someone with an Idian accent, aint gonna happen. Family-owned, family-operated you wont find a more American company than Vortex. Burris, Weaver, Nikon and Leupold all wish they could hold the Razor's jock. I just haven't found a better optics company customer service wise and performance factor per dollar and that is the bottom line. To that end Vortex most definitely delivers.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
It's simply a consumer problem....mostly more tied to greed on both ends. I'm sure companies would love to make 100% made in the USA products, give their manufacturing $ to USA companies and jobs. The big problem is consumers for the most part don't care anymore, they want it cheap. Why do you think walmart is busy 24/7. People know they treat employees like crap, never have enough checkers, hurt small family businesses etc. but as long as it's 10-20% cheaper than anywhere else people will shop there all day every day.
The average consumer has no pride in their purchase anymore or where that money goes. If it means they save a little money and can afford another new vehicle in the garage or a bigger house, or an extra vacation to fiji that year they will sell out their fellow Americans and their jobs in a heartbeat. What they don't realize is that sooner or later it hurts the economy and very likely their own job.
It's not just the consumer though, it's overall greed and the desire for a higher lifestyle. Companies can make more $ if it costs less for them to build a product. As long as the consumer doesn't care where it's made, they can make more money. That means their salary is higher, and they can afford a better lifestyle.
Look at clothing companies, take Arcteryx started out as a small climbing harness/pack maker all made in canada, high $ and higher quality stuff. Over the years they now make everything under the sun. However, 90% of it now is made in china. Still high quality, better than North Face junk, but not what it was. However they still charge $500 for a jacket from china, same as it was when it was made in Canada. So you KNOW they are making much much more profit on that jacket by farming it out overseas. They didn't drop prices, but they are making a ton more money now.
Ever wonder why companies don't push the made in USA anymore? There are enough people that care that with a good marketing campaign they could drum up sales, if the price was within reason say 20% higher. The problem is they are like Arcteryx they want the higher profits they get by still charging high prices but reducing their manufacturing costs by farming it out overseas. They make higher profits doing that than making it in the USA and charging somewhat more for the product. Only consumers voting with their $ can stop that, and that's never going to happen.
As long as the consumer supports that crap, it will go on. If people quit buying Arcteryx because it was made in china, they'd either have to cut the price, or bring back the manufacturing to Canada. The same is true for US companies.
As for supporting USA based companies that farm out manufacturing overseas, it's better than nothing but it's still crap. I don't know how many employees say leupold has, or what % of their profits/money goes overseas for manufacturing, but I'd be willing to bet that the number of jobs related to the manufacturing of the scope parts/assemblies is vastly higher than the people leupold employs in the US doing assembly and sales. A large chunk of the money paid to leupold still supports overseas jobs.
If consumers quit buying leupolds they would have to change how they do business. As it is consumers don't ask and don't care, long as it's cheap. I'd be willing to bet 90% of people that buy leupold still think it's a made in the USA product.
It's simply a consumer problem....mostly more tied to greed on both ends. I'm sure companies would love to make 100% made in the USA products, give their manufacturing $ to USA companies and jobs. The big problem is consumers for the most part don't care anymore, they want it cheap. Why do you think walmart is busy 24/7. People know they treat employees like crap, never have enough checkers, hurt small family businesses etc. but as long as it's 10-20% cheaper than anywhere else people will shop there all day every day.
The average consumer has no pride in their purchase anymore or where that money goes. If it means they save a little money and can afford another new vehicle in the garage or a bigger house, or an extra vacation to fiji that year they will sell out their fellow Americans and their jobs in a heartbeat. What they don't realize is that sooner or later it hurts the economy and very likely their own job.
It's not just the consumer though, it's overall greed and the desire for a higher lifestyle. Companies can make more $ if it costs less for them to build a product. As long as the consumer doesn't care where it's made, they can make more money. That means their salary is higher, and they can afford a better lifestyle.
Look at clothing companies, take Arcteryx started out as a small climbing harness/pack maker all made in canada, high $ and higher quality stuff. Over the years they now make everything under the sun. However, 90% of it now is made in china. Still high quality, better than North Face junk, but not what it was. However they still charge $500 for a jacket from china, same as it was when it was made in Canada. So you KNOW they are making much much more profit on that jacket by farming it out overseas. They didn't drop prices, but they are making a ton more money now.
Ever wonder why companies don't push the made in USA anymore? There are enough people that care that with a good marketing campaign they could drum up sales, if the price was within reason say 20% higher. The problem is they are like Arcteryx they want the higher profits they get by still charging high prices but reducing their manufacturing costs by farming it out overseas. They make higher profits doing that than making it in the USA and charging somewhat more for the product. Only consumers voting with their $ can stop that, and that's never going to happen.
As long as the consumer supports that crap, it will go on. If people quit buying Arcteryx because it was made in china, they'd either have to cut the price, or bring back the manufacturing to Canada. The same is true for US companies.
As for supporting USA based companies that farm out manufacturing overseas, it's better than nothing but it's still crap. I don't know how many employees say leupold has, or what % of their profits/money goes overseas for manufacturing, but I'd be willing to bet that the number of jobs related to the manufacturing of the scope parts/assemblies is vastly higher than the people leupold employs in the US doing assembly and sales. A large chunk of the money paid to leupold still supports overseas jobs.
If consumers quit buying leupolds they would have to change how they do business. As it is consumers don't ask and don't care, long as it's cheap. I'd be willing to bet 90% of people that buy leupold still think it's a made in the USA product.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
I dont want this to sound like i am defending anyone, but...
"All Leupold Golden Ring® Riflescopes are designed, machined, assembled, and tested in Leupold’s state of the art manufacturing facility in Beaverton, Oregon, USA."
give them credit where it is due. Sure they make a cheaper line to COMPETE with that market, but they do make a crap load of parts in Oregon and employ quite a few people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72XhFKTyLPI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvLcYQiP4_s&feature=related
I dont want this to sound like i am defending anyone, but...
"All Leupold Golden Ring® Riflescopes are designed, machined, assembled, and tested in Leupold’s state of the art manufacturing facility in Beaverton, Oregon, USA."
give them credit where it is due. Sure they make a cheaper line to COMPETE with that market, but they do make a crap load of parts in Oregon and employ quite a few people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72XhFKTyLPI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvLcYQiP4_s&feature=related
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
I don't know what the % breakdown is to label your product made in the USA (I think I've read 50% and that's including all accessories and packaging in the past), but I have a hard time believing that *if* Leupold met the standard they would not mark their products as Made in the USA and market them so. Especially since they did so in the past. When doing so would no doubt give them a market advantage over the current competition.
While it's internet information and unconfirmed a couple places with company profiles put leupold's employee numbers around 500 and doing 75-110+ million dollars in business a year (2001 estimates). The question of course becomes how many more jobs are supported overseas by leupold outsourcing their parts and assemblies and how much of their income are they sending overseas to cover those costs. I'd be willing to bet it's a lot more than 500 jobs and a huge chunk of $. None of which Leupold is going to make public. Until they can and do make enough of their scopes parts in the USA to label them so, giving them money is still sending an unknown amount of it (and probably a good %) overseas.
I'm not saying any of the other mainstream US scope companies are doing any better, they were just an example I wasn't purposely picking on them. One could easily substitute any number of US scope companies in the example.
I don't know what the % breakdown is to label your product made in the USA (I think I've read 50% and that's including all accessories and packaging in the past), but I have a hard time believing that *if* Leupold met the standard they would not mark their products as Made in the USA and market them so. Especially since they did so in the past. When doing so would no doubt give them a market advantage over the current competition.
While it's internet information and unconfirmed a couple places with company profiles put leupold's employee numbers around 500 and doing 75-110+ million dollars in business a year (2001 estimates). The question of course becomes how many more jobs are supported overseas by leupold outsourcing their parts and assemblies and how much of their income are they sending overseas to cover those costs. I'd be willing to bet it's a lot more than 500 jobs and a huge chunk of $. None of which Leupold is going to make public. Until they can and do make enough of their scopes parts in the USA to label them so, giving them money is still sending an unknown amount of it (and probably a good %) overseas.
I'm not saying any of the other mainstream US scope companies are doing any better, they were just an example I wasn't purposely picking on them. One could easily substitute any number of US scope companies in the example.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
My Mark4 says Made in USA on the box; and it is one of the newer ones!
My Mark4 says Made in USA on the box; and it is one of the newer ones!
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
Interesting, I picked up one of their newer CDS scopes (which promptly had problems and had to returned) it made no mention of made in the USA anywhere, nor have the last couple VXIII's I've bought, including a M3 version. Could be they are doing more of the mk4's parts in the USA that qualify for the label. Either way though the Mk4 scopes are probably 1/100th or less of their total sales of scopes. So unless it applies to the majority of their line it doesn't say much.
Interesting, I picked up one of their newer CDS scopes (which promptly had problems and had to returned) it made no mention of made in the USA anywhere, nor have the last couple VXIII's I've bought, including a M3 version. Could be they are doing more of the mk4's parts in the USA that qualify for the label. Either way though the Mk4 scopes are probably 1/100th or less of their total sales of scopes. So unless it applies to the majority of their line it doesn't say much.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
Todd w/ all due respect; w/ your views on Leupold I am afraid nothing is going to say much. Anything Golden ring or higher is Made in USA!
Todd w/ all due respect; w/ your views on Leupold I am afraid nothing is going to say much. Anything Golden ring or higher is Made in USA!
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
It's true I don't think very highly of Leupold's products these days. However, I'd be happy to sit/stand/type corrected if in fact ALL of their current gold ring scopes are marked "Made in the USA" now and meet those requirements. The last few I've seen were not marked that way on the box or the scope, obviously that has changed, if it applies to the whole gold ring lineup then great, good for Leupold, and my mistake for using them as an example.
I still think the original point I made stands though. I used leupold as an example (incorrectly it would seem) however the idea is sound, and I could insert other scope companies based in the USA in there easily. There are lots of "USA" companies that people think are selling products made in the USA and that the dollars they spend on them are staying in the USA when in fact it's not the case.
It's true I don't think very highly of Leupold's products these days. However, I'd be happy to sit/stand/type corrected if in fact ALL of their current gold ring scopes are marked "Made in the USA" now and meet those requirements. The last few I've seen were not marked that way on the box or the scope, obviously that has changed, if it applies to the whole gold ring lineup then great, good for Leupold, and my mistake for using them as an example.
I still think the original point I made stands though. I used leupold as an example (incorrectly it would seem) however the idea is sound, and I could insert other scope companies based in the USA in there easily. There are lots of "USA" companies that people think are selling products made in the USA and that the dollars they spend on them are staying in the USA when in fact it's not the case.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
I agree with Glen, and some others here. But I also have to add a few things. I am definitely a supporter of "Buy North American" (Canada & U.S.A.). Also though, there are some things to which are near impossible to get apart from overseas.
When one is developing a product, some items are near impossible to get, such as LED's, IC's, [and other small parts] made out of metal as opposed to injection-molded plastic? And other items, including processing.
And on the off chance that you find ONE supplier that does, as soon as interest is shown in their product, all the sudden 'a NEW car' is heard in their ears from the Price is Right announcer. I don't have a problem paying more for quality, myself. But I do have a problem paying near twice as much money, for half as much product, when you ask for a smaller item.
Especially when two of those smaller items are made on the same machine, at the same time.
So the way I see it, is for one normal product to be purchased and we'll cut it in half ourselves, and still be making it out ahead of the game. I/we do want to purchase locally and in these two countries. Won't change that. But to what end does one maintain their integrity, before the import countries pirate your patent and deliver a container load and start selling it at a dollar store?
Learning here, and it's a heck of a curve.
I agree with Glen, and some others here. But I also have to add a few things. I am definitely a supporter of "Buy North American" (Canada & U.S.A.). Also though, there are some things to which are near impossible to get apart from overseas.
When one is developing a product, some items are near impossible to get, such as LED's, IC's, [and other small parts] made out of metal as opposed to injection-molded plastic? And other items, including processing.
And on the off chance that you find ONE supplier that does, as soon as interest is shown in their product, all the sudden 'a NEW car' is heard in their ears from the Price is Right announcer. I don't have a problem paying more for quality, myself. But I do have a problem paying near twice as much money, for half as much product, when you ask for a smaller item.
Especially when two of those smaller items are made on the same machine, at the same time.
So the way I see it, is for one normal product to be purchased and we'll cut it in half ourselves, and still be making it out ahead of the game. I/we do want to purchase locally and in these two countries. Won't change that. But to what end does one maintain their integrity, before the import countries pirate your patent and deliver a container load and start selling it at a dollar store?
Learning here, and it's a heck of a curve.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
I agree completely, what are you looking for a complete set up for $1500.00 then that is the quality you will get. most of the uninformed public dont know what a FFP scope does for you .
Sticking with these
Surgeon in 6XC
AW in 308
PGW coyote in 308
Lawton in 338 Lapua
Glass is 3 Premier 5x25 gen 2 XR
Not rethinking anything !!!!!!
Bill
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: connor55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I completely agree with Glen.
"Leupold not listening to what? 2% of their customers (guys like you and me). Bubba isn't screaming for a 2000$ FFP mill/mill scope last i checked is he? "
Up untill about 6 months ago I was one of thoes people. Two years ago I went out, bought a 600$ Remington 700, a low end leupold 3x9 scope, and maybe 5 boxes of bullets. Put it all together, shot the first 3 boxes sighting it in and stored the rest for hunts. I still have one box. That leupold has done what I needed, and that is what most of the world needs. Not many want a 2000$ scope. Very few care about FFP. Most will live with a Mil/MOA. </div></div>
I agree completely, what are you looking for a complete set up for $1500.00 then that is the quality you will get. most of the uninformed public dont know what a FFP scope does for you .
Sticking with these
Surgeon in 6XC
AW in 308
PGW coyote in 308
Lawton in 338 Lapua
Glass is 3 Premier 5x25 gen 2 XR
Not rethinking anything !!!!!!
Bill
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: connor55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I completely agree with Glen.
"Leupold not listening to what? 2% of their customers (guys like you and me). Bubba isn't screaming for a 2000$ FFP mill/mill scope last i checked is he? "
Up untill about 6 months ago I was one of thoes people. Two years ago I went out, bought a 600$ Remington 700, a low end leupold 3x9 scope, and maybe 5 boxes of bullets. Put it all together, shot the first 3 boxes sighting it in and stored the rest for hunts. I still have one box. That leupold has done what I needed, and that is what most of the world needs. Not many want a 2000$ scope. Very few care about FFP. Most will live with a Mil/MOA. </div></div>
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: startrek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was a day when Weaver, Redfield and Leupold was the top of the line in optics.We don't think twice about paying $600 to $1000 for a scope we have never even looked through but we won't spend the money on a Burris, Weaver or Leupold. Know where the money goes for the offbrand scopes, overseas. I for one am ashamed of myself for not support the companies in our own country and from this moment on will buy optics only made in the good old USA.</div></div>
So if you buy a Burris riflescope...are you planning on buying one made in the USA, Phillipines, or China?
Because Burris are no longer manufactured solely in the USA....and even Burris has caved in and allowed their name to be put on a Chinese scope (Fullfield Rimfire).
Alas, I'm not one of those who "don't think twice about paying $600 to $1000 for a scope."
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: startrek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was a day when Weaver, Redfield and Leupold was the top of the line in optics.We don't think twice about paying $600 to $1000 for a scope we have never even looked through but we won't spend the money on a Burris, Weaver or Leupold. Know where the money goes for the offbrand scopes, overseas. I for one am ashamed of myself for not support the companies in our own country and from this moment on will buy optics only made in the good old USA.</div></div>
So if you buy a Burris riflescope...are you planning on buying one made in the USA, Phillipines, or China?
Because Burris are no longer manufactured solely in the USA....and even Burris has caved in and allowed their name to be put on a Chinese scope (Fullfield Rimfire).
Alas, I'm not one of those who "don't think twice about paying $600 to $1000 for a scope."
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
"THIS is why we cannot compete in the US. We never will be able to until we are playing on a level field."
Well Glen, I almost agree with you 100%, except for the fact that we can never be on a completely level field. We simply cannot compete with lower costs and wages abroad in developing countries. Many millions of non union textile manufacturing jobs left the US forever in the last 4 decades, and most other manufacturing started following suit shortly thereafter. We kept moving into higher and higher tech products, but eventually they too just moved overseas. I know of a plant here that paid $14.50 an hour for semi skilled line workers, that shut down and moved to China where they pay the equivalent of $0.67 an hour per worker.
The USA can no doubt compete against developed nations when it comes to manufacturing, (if we want to) but when it comes to most developing nations... its tough.
Delivering a consistent QUALITY product, at a reasonable price point, year in and year out, is something the Japanese have learned and do well, we could learn a thing or 3 from them.
Dating myself here, but I recall when the sport of motocross hit our shores. The dominant manufacturers were Husqvarna-Sweden, Maico-Germany, CZ-Czechoslovakia, Ossa & Bultaco-Spain, BSA & AJS-Great Britain, and other Euro makes. Harley Davidson-USA, CAN-AM-Canada, and Carabela-Mexico all tried to enter the fray, but offered inferior products at premium prices and all failed miserably. Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki-Japan all got very serious and now not only OWN the market, as they have for decades now, they have put most of the above named manufacturers out of business.
There will always be a place for the big manufacturers in <$400 scopes, and the specialist manufacturers in >$2000 scopes. It will be interesting to see the moves in the $600-$1400 market in the next few years.
"THIS is why we cannot compete in the US. We never will be able to until we are playing on a level field."
Well Glen, I almost agree with you 100%, except for the fact that we can never be on a completely level field. We simply cannot compete with lower costs and wages abroad in developing countries. Many millions of non union textile manufacturing jobs left the US forever in the last 4 decades, and most other manufacturing started following suit shortly thereafter. We kept moving into higher and higher tech products, but eventually they too just moved overseas. I know of a plant here that paid $14.50 an hour for semi skilled line workers, that shut down and moved to China where they pay the equivalent of $0.67 an hour per worker.
The USA can no doubt compete against developed nations when it comes to manufacturing, (if we want to) but when it comes to most developing nations... its tough.
Delivering a consistent QUALITY product, at a reasonable price point, year in and year out, is something the Japanese have learned and do well, we could learn a thing or 3 from them.
Dating myself here, but I recall when the sport of motocross hit our shores. The dominant manufacturers were Husqvarna-Sweden, Maico-Germany, CZ-Czechoslovakia, Ossa & Bultaco-Spain, BSA & AJS-Great Britain, and other Euro makes. Harley Davidson-USA, CAN-AM-Canada, and Carabela-Mexico all tried to enter the fray, but offered inferior products at premium prices and all failed miserably. Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki-Japan all got very serious and now not only OWN the market, as they have for decades now, they have put most of the above named manufacturers out of business.
There will always be a place for the big manufacturers in <$400 scopes, and the specialist manufacturers in >$2000 scopes. It will be interesting to see the moves in the $600-$1400 market in the next few years.
Re: How quickly we forget and abandon
Mike, so true. When I had my FFl the number of firearm buyers would spend 600.00 to a grand on a rifle. When I asked them about optics most common answer was "Tasco". I was a Leupold man for years and in all fairness Leupold
still provides a good scope for the average shooter. Leupold's service and repair are excellant.Sales caters to numbers,just a business fact.
Mike, so true. When I had my FFl the number of firearm buyers would spend 600.00 to a grand on a rifle. When I asked them about optics most common answer was "Tasco". I was a Leupold man for years and in all fairness Leupold
still provides a good scope for the average shooter. Leupold's service and repair are excellant.Sales caters to numbers,just a business fact.
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