How to reduce AR15 recoil WITHOUT adjustable gas block or muzzle brake?

[ThunderMass]

I'm looking to build a Service Rifle AR15 for CMP EIC, and there are certain rules that must be adhered to. The big ones are:

-5.56/.223
-Stoner gas impingement or piston, NO adjustable gas block
-20" barrel max, no portion of the barrel may exceed 0.75" forward of the gas block
-No muzzle brake or compensator. Flash suppressor is allowed, but not required
-To my understanding, there is NO weight limit

There are several other rules and largely don't matter for this post, but for reference, a 4.5 power optic isn't required, but is allowed. The trigger must be a minimum of 4.5 pounds, and can either be a single or two stage. So there is some leeway allowed in the rifle. While I certainly don't want to cheat, if a rule is not explicitly mentioned, I'd assume there is no limitation. But, assuming can be dangerous.

About the only thing I can come up with is a low mass BCG, but I worry about running one without an adjustable gas block. Instead of an adjustable gas block, are there adjustable buffer/springs that can somewhat do the same thing? JP Enterprise silent capture? I know there are adjustable gas tubes, but, I feel that would be pushing it. Is it possible to have a fixed gas block with a smaller gas port, or one that you drill out yourself? That would take a lot of time to tune, but, technically be legal?

My only other thoughts are, I know the flash suppressor isn't a muzzle brake. But does it offer ANY kind of recoil reduction? The rifle is supposed to "exhibit a general overall external appearance to the M-16"; which is how I think the "internal" modifications listed above will probably be acceptable.

Hopefully I'm not just chasing impossible ideas here. If nothing I've mentioned above will work, I'll probably buy a service rifle instead of build. Thanks for any input.

 

[TurboTrout]

Tuned Silent capture spring? Low mass BCG?

Aka, call JP

 

[BikePilot]

Perhaps run an adjustable bolt, light bcg and tuned jp silent capture spring, then make it as heavy as you can.

You can tune buffer weights and springs to control speed similar to an adjustable gas block, but ideally you’d run as little gas as possible then tune for that. The adjustable bolt should work similarly to an adjustable gas block, but I’ve never actually used one.

 

[6.5SH]

There are also gas tubes with reduced diameter ports and tunable gas keys such as rubbercityarmory makes.
No idea on the CMP legality of either. But neither are instantly adjustable like a gas block can be.

 

[MK20]

Just tune your buffer weight to your rifle and load. Its cheap, easy, and works well. You want to see your ejection pattern be at 3-4 o clock.

 

[Ravenworks]

Heavybuffers.com

 

[BikePilot]

Bootleg Four Position Adjustable .308/7.62/6.5CM Bolt Carrier

Bootleg Four Position Adjustable .308/7.62/6.5CM Bolt Carrier

www.rainierarms.com

 

[ThunderMass]

Tuned Silent capture spring? Low mass BCG?

Aka, call JP

Haven't gotten there yet. Just wanted to see if my thinking was even an option.

Perhaps run an adjustable bolt, light bcg and tuned jp silent capture spring, then make it as heavy as you can.

You can tune buffer weights and springs to control speed similar to an adjustable gas block, but ideally you’d run as little gas as possible then tune for that. The adjustable bolt should work similarly to an adjustable gas block, but I’ve never actually used one.

I don't really wanna make the spring too heavy, as it might be difficult to charge it. Dunno, how heavy does it need to be to compensate for a light BCG? But if that's what I have to do...

Not sue what an adjustable bolt is. Is it just the bolt, or the whole BCG? Agreed, best to reduce the gas first, but, not much I can do in this situation.

There are also gas tubes with reduced diameter ports and tunable gas keys such as rubbercityarmory makes.
No idea on the CMP legality of either. But neither are instantly adjustable like a gas block can be.

Hmm... the gas key might actually work. Does it just vent excess gas upwards into the upper receiver?

I wanted to stay away from adjustable gas tubes, as someone could maybe see it by looking through my handguard. But if the tube is fixed, but smaller, who would know?

I'm really not looking to cheat (not saying you're accusing me of cheating), but when I see rules stating things like no adjustable gas blocks, but nothing on the BCG, and things like a 4.5X optic are allowed, I feel like there may be room for me to tweak it a little.

Hell, I was interested in using a Magpul UBR stock, and wondered if that was legal, and if I could add weight to it. Turns out, weights are available for it, and I saw it in use in a video for the same competition. So, I figure as long as it LOOKs like an M16, and doesn't break the rules explicitly mentioned, it's fair game. Plus, I enjoy thinking about these things.

Just tune your buffer weight to your rifle and load. Its cheap, easy, and works well. You want to see your ejection pattern be at 3-4 o clock.

Is it because the buffer is resisting the BCG, its weight being high will reduce the recoil, not increase it?

Heavybuffers.com

I'll take a look, thanks.

 

[ThunderMass]

Bootleg Four Position Adjustable .308/7.62/6.5CM Bolt Carrier

Bootleg Four Position Adjustable .308/7.62/6.5CM Bolt Carrier

www.rainierarms.com

Looks interesting, I'll try to read up on how it works. Thanks.

 

[Douglas-001]

Good grief man.....fuck all that gas block bullshit....get a service rifle that ACTUALLY looks like an issued M16 from way back in the day and stuff lead weights in the stock (A2 stock) and then line the hand guards with lead also. My competition rifle weighs in at almost 17 LBS. No scope. Iron sights. The rifles you see on the firing line today DO NOT look like any type of M16 that was issued long ago. More like match rifles. They are quite fancy with optics that are equally as fancy. Go shoot a plain jane rifle and then add what you feel you may be missing. Last point....I did not know the AR15 generated recoil.........

 

[Scotts556]

This is service rifle, not 3 gun......... Make the rifle heavy, make it shoot good, and learn how to shoot it good.

 

[ThunderMass]

Good grief man.....fuck all that gas block bullshit....get a service rifle that ACTUALLY looks like an issued M16 from way back in the day and stuff lead weights in the stock (A2 stock) and then line the hand guards with lead also. My competition rifle weighs in at almost 17 LBS. No scope. Iron sights. The rifles you see on the firing line today DO NOT look like any type of M16 that was issued long ago. More like match rifles. They are quite fancy with optics that are equally as fancy. Go shoot a plain jane rifle and then add what you feel you may be missing. Last point....I did not know the AR15 generated recoil.........

That's kinda the problem... why is it a bad thing if I wanna do everything I can to tune the rifle properly, but stuffing it full of lead is okay? I doubt anyone issued an M16 would want to double its weight. But hey, maybe I'm wrong.

I shot a loaner gun and got 425/500 my first time trying. The only real complaint was he had a single stage trigger, and the quad rail was a bit obnoxious.

Oh, and "I dId NoT kNoW tHe Ar15 GeNeRaTeD rEcOiL" ...then dump the lead, my guy.

This is service rifle, not 3 gun......... Make the rifle heavy, make it shoot good, and learn how to shoot it good.

Won't adjusting the gas make it shoot good, and reducing recoil give me quicker follow up shots make me also shoot good? No substitute for range time, but shouldn't I go out with the best rifle I can build?

 

[...]

are we really at the point where we are complaining about the massive recoil from a 20" AR?

those things recoil about as much as a .22lr

i love how people enter "service rifle" competitions...but dont actually want to shoot a service rifle in them...

this is the problem with most of the shooting disciplines...everyone wants to game the shit out of them...

PRS, IDPA, cowboy action, Service rile....they dont want to compete by the spirit of the match....they just want to play dress up.

 

[Scotts556]

Not saying it wont. But you'd be the first person I have ever seen going down this rabbit hole in my service rifle experience.

Service rifle isn't really a fast game. Sure are the rapid fire stages "fast"? 10 rounds in 60 seconds seems fast. But its really not. its forever if you can build you shooting position correctly from the get go. What's gonna fuck you over more than recoil is your breathing. You don't really need a rifle capable for shooting flat for to make them .1 sec split times. But a heavy rifle will really help getting you settled into a shooting position.

Service rifle is a game of how well you can shoot, not how well/fast you can make your rifle shoot. A RRA A2 service rifle will probably be capable of shooting better than you for a decent amount of time out of the box.

 

[TurboTrout]

That's kinda the problem... why is it a bad thing if I wanna do everything I can to tune the rifle properly, but stuffing it full of lead is okay? I doubt anyone issued an M16 would want to double its weight. But hey, maybe I'm wrong.

I shot a loaner gun and got 425/500 my first time trying. The only real complaint was he had a single stage trigger, and the quad rail was a bit obnoxious.

Oh, and "I dId NoT kNoW tHe Ar15 GeNeRaTeD rEcOiL" ...then dump the lead, my guy.

Won't adjusting the gas make it shoot good, and reducing recoil give me quicker follow up shots make me also shoot good? No substitute for range time, but shouldn't I go out with the best rifle I can build?

Fudds, that’s the problem lol

 

[ThunderMass]

are we really at the point where we are complaining about the massive recoil from a 20" AR?

those things recoil about as much as a .22lr

i love how people enter "service rifle" competitions...but dont actually want to shoot a service rifle in them...

this is the problem with most of the shooting disciplines...everyone wants to game the shit out of them...

PRS, IDPA, cowboy action, Service rile....they dont want to compete by the spirit of the match....they just want to play dress up.

Not complaining about it, but it exists, and I'm wondering what I can do to mitigate it.

Yeah, I get it. And part of me is worried that it is cheating; not gonna pursue it if it is. But at the same time, loading a rifle up with lead isn't? And wearing a crazy jacket to keep me stable is STRONGLY encouraged? Never seen any uniform like that in my time. Nor the glove, or the way you use the sling. There are a lot of things about the competition that don't exactly scream "service" to me.

Not saying it wont. But you'd be the first person I have ever seen going down this rabbit hole in my service rifle experience.

Service rifle isn't really a fast game. Sure are the rapid fire stages "fast"? 10 rounds in 60 seconds seems fast. But its really not. its forever if you can build you shooting position correctly from the get go. What's gonna fuck you over more than recoil is your breathing. You don't really need a rifle capable for shooting flat for to make them .1 sec split times. But a heavy rifle will really help getting you settled into a shooting position.

Service rifle is a game of how well you can shoot, not how well/fast you can make your rifle shoot. A RRA A2 service rifle will probably be capable of shooting better than you for a decent amount of time out of the box.

I 100% agree with you. Without a doubt my breathing needs work. That, and I the 4.5lb single stage trigger needs to go. I'm not looking to adjust the gas for the speed of the rifle, only for the speed of my follow up shots. I missed 5 points trying to squeeze off my last round during one course of fire; went from a score of at least 90 to 85 because I heard the crackle of the mic.

If I buy, it'll be RRA, because I hear good things, and I believe they have a military discount. But I'll build the lower myself.

As for the first person going this route, you know, I just like to customize and tinker, to be honest. Just like with my Jeep, I thought about the build for a long time, and am very happy with the results and what it is capable of. I know this is service rifle, and the amount of customization will be limited, but I figure why not do some?

 

[ThunderMass]

Fudds, that’s the problem lol

I honestly never heard that term before; had to look it up.

 

[...]

Yeah, I get it. And part of me is worried that it is cheating; not gonna pursue it if it is. But at the same time, loading a rifle up with lead isn't? And wearing a crazy jacket to keep me stable is STRONGLY encouraged? Never seen any uniform like that in my time. Nor the glove, or the way you use the sling. There are a lot of things about the competition that don't exactly scream "service" to me.

its called service RIFLE.....not service JACKET.....

 

[TurboTrout]

“Cheating” is a word invented by losers and folks who can’t think outside of the box IMHO

Not gaining every advantage you can is setting yourself up to fail. “I want a fair fight” said no champion ever.

 

[ThunderMass]

its called service RIFLE.....not service JACKET.....

True.

 

[ThunderMass]

“Cheating” is a word invented by losers and folks who can’t think outside of the box IMHO

Not gaining every advantage you can is setting yourself up to fail. “I want a fair fight” said no champion ever.

I mean... that's kinda what I'm going for here. The rules state you MAY use an optic, so how many people aren't going to throw one on? And 4.5X is the max, so why not go with that? The rifle I shot was a 4X, and the owner stated he'll be going to 4.5X soon.

Follow the rules, of course. But find every possible way to put yourself ahead of the competition.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

My only other thoughts are, I know the flash suppressor isn't a muzzle brake. But does it offer ANY kind of recoil reduction?

No. It does adds a miniscule amount of compensation when shooting an average weight rifle offhand, I imagine it's effect is even less using a heavy rifle in slung prone. But I'd still use it just because you can.
I like what you're trying to do. Finding every hole in the rulebook is how racing works, and every game with a time restraint becomes some form of racing.
Might as well try a low mass carrier with an adjustable gas key, play with buffer weights and spring rates, and add weight.
Once they let you stuff rifles full of lead and strap yourself into a straight jacket I think the whole premise of "service rifle" went out the window. Exploit the rules till they explicitly ban whatever you're doing.

 

[Clayman]

I'm looking to build a Service Rifle AR15 for CMP EIC, and there are certain rules that must be adhered to. The big ones are:

-5.56/.223
-Stoner gas impingement or piston, NO adjustable gas block
-20" barrel max, no portion of the barrel may exceed 0.75" forward of the gas block
-No muzzle brake or compensator. Flash suppressor is allowed, but not required
-To my understanding, there is NO weight limit

There are several other rules and largely don't matter for this post, but for reference, a 4.5 power optic isn't required, but is allowed. The trigger must be a minimum of 4.5 pounds, and can either be a single or two stage. So there is some leeway allowed in the rifle. While I certainly don't want to cheat, if a rule is not explicitly mentioned, I'd assume there is no limitation. But, assuming can be dangerous.

About the only thing I can come up with is a low mass BCG, but I worry about running one without an adjustable gas block. Instead of an adjustable gas block, are there adjustable buffer/springs that can somewhat do the same thing? JP Enterprise silent capture? I know there are adjustable gas tubes, but, I feel that would be pushing it. Is it possible to have a fixed gas block with a smaller gas port, or one that you drill out yourself? That would take a lot of time to tune, but, technically be legal?

My only other thoughts are, I know the flash suppressor isn't a muzzle brake. But does it offer ANY kind of recoil reduction? The rifle is supposed to "exhibit a general overall external appearance to the M-16"; which is how I think the "internal" modifications listed above will probably be acceptable.

Hopefully I'm not just chasing impossible ideas here. If nothing I've mentioned above will work, I'll probably buy a service rifle instead of build. Thanks for any input.

20" +2 rifle length gas, jp low mass system. Also having that +2 allows your barrel to be nice and thicc leading up to it giving you more mass.

You may need to do a bit of prototyping on gas port to optimize it. Undersized and keep opening it till it reliably cycles your ammo. Short dwell length with low reciprocating mass should be very stable smooth impulse.

 

[mewillis]

-20" barrel max, no portion of the barrel may exceed 0.75" forward of the gas block

what AR 15 rifle's barrel doesn't exceed 0.75 past the gas block??? is this a typo?
second, this is a service rifle match and should be able to actually use a service rifle setup,
just to keep your self esteem knowing you fired an actual "service rifle"

 

[Clayman]

what AR 15 rifle's barrel doesn't exceed 0.75 past the gas block??? is this a typo?

Forward of the gas block, so going towards the muzzle.

All of them that utilize .625 or .750 gas blocks.

Diameter

 

[roostercogburn98]

what AR 15 rifle's barrel doesn't exceed 0.75 past the gas block??? is this a typo?
second, this is a service rifle match and should be able to actually use a service rifle setup,
just to keep your self esteem knowing you fired an actual "service rifle"

Pretty sure that is a reference to thickness

 

[TonyTheTiger]

what AR 15 rifle's barrel doesn't exceed 0.75 past the gas block??? is this a typo?

.75 diameter.

 

[MK20]

Haven't gotten there yet. Just wanted to see if my thinking was even an option.

I don't really wanna make the spring too heavy, as it might be difficult to charge it. Dunno, how heavy does it need to be to compensate for a light BCG? But if that's what I have to do...

Not sue what an adjustable bolt is. Is it just the bolt, or the whole BCG? Agreed, best to reduce the gas first, but, not much I can do in this situation.

Hmm... the gas key might actually work. Does it just vent excess gas upwards into the upper receiver?

I wanted to stay away from adjustable gas tubes, as someone could maybe see it by looking through my handguard. But if the tube is fixed, but smaller, who would know?

I'm really not looking to cheat (not saying you're accusing me of cheating), but when I see rules stating things like no adjustable gas blocks, but nothing on the BCG, and things like a 4.5X optic are allowed, I feel like there may be room for me to tweak it a little.

Hell, I was interested in using a Magpul UBR stock, and wondered if that was legal, and if I could add weight to it. Turns out, weights are available for it, and I saw it in use in a video for the same competition. So, I figure as long as it LOOKs like an M16, and doesn't break the rules explicitly mentioned, it's fair game. Plus, I enjoy thinking about these things.

Is it because the buffer is resisting the BCG, its weight being high will reduce the recoil, not increase it?

I'll take a look, thanks.

If you increase the buffer weight it will slow the travel of the reciprocating parts which will change the way the recoil is felt. By having the reciprocating parts impact the rear of the buffer tube slowly there is much less perceived recoil.

 

[308pirate]

This thread is faggotry

 

[MK20]

Well, yes, now that you are here.

 

[KineticPerformance]

Service rifle is a game of how well you can shoot, not how well/fast you can make your rifle shoot. A RRA A2 service rifle will probably be capable of shooting better than you for a decent amount of time out of the box.

Truth. Any good barrel will be ported properly to run with minimal tuning. Mine shoots best with a Tubb spring and H2 buffer but it's fine with nearly any reasonable combo.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

If you increase the buffer weight it will slow the travel of the reciprocating parts which will change the way the recoil is felt. By having the reciprocating parts impact the rear of the buffer tube slowly there is much less perceived recoil.

There are two ways to skin that cat. Heavy and slow is one, ultra light and fast is the other.
I go with heavy and slow when I build a rifle to push hotter loads, and light when sight recovery and follow ups are more important.

 

[sinister]

If you have access to a drill press then yes, monkeying with the gas port size is a viable option. IPSC/USPSA Action shooters like a light bolt carrier group, but most also use a muzzle brake or compensator, which are verboten in Service Rifle. Some choose to shoot without an A1 or A2 bird cage on the muzzle -- it doesn't matter (they neither help nor hurt).

It should generally follow "NASCAR" stock rules in that outside it looks like an M16A4 or M4. The Gen 1 and 2 Magpul UBR generally kinda-sorta fits military M16A4 configuration using an M4 butt to compensate for length (shorter troops and body armor). This went away in the military because we are moving to fleet-pure M4s, but the rule stands. You can bolt a weight to it as well.

When I shot an M16A2 I had lead in the butt and lead mag-wheel weights glued to the inside of standard M16A2 fore grips (removing the sheet metal heat shields). You can now use a slick free-float tube or quad-rail to duplicate the standard RAS or RIS rail systems. My rifle weighed just under 17 pounds.

I used an XH Heavy Buffer and standard M16 spring to reduce perceived recoil, to gain a little more weight / rear balance, and reduce beating up my 600-yard load brass.

The Geissele National Match and Milazzo-Krieger triggers break at a very sharp, crisp 4.5 pounds. Others do as well, but have varying service life (an Armalite goes three complete barrels, and a Rock River might if the disconnector pin doesn't break).

The 4.5X scope duplicates the ACOG, which the Marine Corps trains at boot camp and issues to most line Marines. Use what you want, limited to 4.5X. I went to the scope because my old eyeballs can no longer discern how far into the black I'm holding my front sight at 600 yards (giving me vertical stringing). Some clubs allow you to use scopes with higher magnification, as long as it's taped at 4.5X.

Good luck. The gadgets are nice, but you still have to point the rifle.

 

[thehun]

Anything else besides an adjustable gas block is a band aid fix...proper recoil control goes via gas regulation...

If that isn't allowed...your best bet is getting proper gas port size on your barrel...

 

[ThunderMass]

I really hoped this topic wouldn't get such heated opinions. I just wanted to build the best rifle I could while still adhering to the rules.

No. It does adds a miniscule amount of compensation when shooting an average weight rifle offhand, I imagine it's effect is even less using a heavy rifle in slung prone. But I'd still use it just because you can.
I like what you're trying to do. Finding every hole in the rulebook is how racing works, and every game with a time restraint becomes some form of racing.
Might as well try a low mass carrier with an adjustable gas key, play with buffer weights and spring rates, and add weight.
Once they let you stuff rifles full of lead and strap yourself into a straight jacket I think the whole premise of "service rifle" went out the window. Exploit the rules till they explicitly ban whatever you're doing.

That's what I'm thinking; minimal affect, but, any little bit that can help adds up. Plus it adds the the aesthetic, which is somewhat important, it seems.

I appreciate it. I see an opportunity to try something relatively new here. It may be a bit unorthodox, but so long as it's legal, I figure why not give it a shot? I've purchased plenty of guns, and now I want to build. Sure, my build will have limitations, but so what?

Agreed; stuffing a rifle full of lead kinda detracts from the "service rifle". And all of the funky jazz you wear while shooting is completely impractical from a real world perspective. Not to mention single feeding a semi auto... It's fine to disagree with messing with the gas system, but don't criticize my means of reducing recoil, while you double the weight of your rifle, acting like your shit don't stink. It's hypocritical.

20" +2 rifle length gas, jp low mass system. Also having that +2 allows your barrel to be nice and thicc leading up to it giving you more mass.

You may need to do a bit of prototyping on gas port to optimize it. Undersized and keep opening it till it reliably cycles your ammo. Short dwell length with low reciprocating mass should be very stable smooth impulse.

Rifle length is required, I believe.

The gas port is on the barrel, right? Not part of the gas block? If so, I don't think I'll be messing with that. I only considered drilling into the gas block.

what AR 15 rifle's barrel doesn't exceed 0.75 past the gas block??? is this a typo?
second, this is a service rifle match and should be able to actually use a service rifle setup,
just to keep your self esteem knowing you fired an actual "service rifle"

Just reading what it says in the rule book.

As long as it's legal, I have no problem. I'd be more proud of myself for building a capable rifle than just shooting one someone else made.

If you increase the buffer weight it will slow the travel of the reciprocating parts which will change the way the recoil is felt. By having the reciprocating parts impact the rear of the buffer tube slowly there is much less perceived recoil.

Is there any correlation between buffer weight and BCG weight?

This thread is faggotry

I just posted a question, about an idea I had. Everyone is entitled to their opinion; I'm just wondering if it can work.

If you have access to a drill press then yes, monkeying with the gas port size is a viable option. IPSC/USPSA Action shooters like a light bolt carrier group, but most also use a muzzle brake or compensator, which are verboten in Service Rifle. Some choose to shoot without an A1 or A2 bird cage on the muzzle -- it doesn't matter (they neither help nor hurt).

It should generally follow "NASCAR" stock rules in that outside it looks like an M16A4 or M4. The Gen 1 and 2 Magpul UBR generally kinda-sorta fits military M16A4 configuration using an M4 butt to compensate for length (shorter troops and body armor). This went away in the military because we are moving to fleet-pure M4s, but the rule stands. You can bolt a weight to it as well.

When I shot an M16A2 I had lead in the butt and lead mag-wheel weights glued to the inside of standard M16A2 fore grips (removing the sheet metal heat shields). You can now use a slick free-float tube or quad-rail to duplicate the standard RAS or RIS rail systems. My rifle weighed just under 17 pounds.

I used an XH Heavy Buffer and standard M16 spring to reduce perceived recoil, to gain a little more weight / rear balance, and reduce beating up my 600-yard load brass.

The Geissele National Match and Milazzo-Krieger triggers break at a very sharp, crisp 4.5 pounds. Others do as well, but have varying service life (an Armalite goes three complete barrels, and a Rock River might if the disconnector pin doesn't break).

The 4.5X scope duplicates the ACOG, which the Marine Corps trains at boot camp and issues to most line Marines. Use what you want, limited to 4.5X. I went to the scope because my old eyeballs can no longer discern how far into the black I'm holding my front sight at 600 yards (giving me vertical stringing). Some clubs allow you to use scopes with higher magnification, as long as it's taped at 4.5X.

Good luck. The gadgets are nice, but you still have to point the rifle.

I don't have a press, but, if that's what it takes I'm down to try it.

I'll admit I like the look of the UBR, but it's mostly because fixed stocks are too long for my liking, and adjustable stocks are too loose. But this stock has high reviews, it's used in the sport, I can add weight if I choose, and it's both adjustable and rigid; sounds like a win.

I wonder what the limitations are on the fore grip looks wise. I'd pick whichever is most comfortable, like the SLR Helix. Just not sure if that'll fly. The quad rail I shot was just too bulky and cumbersome. If something like the SLR isn't acceptable, I'll probably with a traditional M16 fore grip. I understand adding weight for recoil reduction, but would weight that far forward help or hurt when shooting standing? Should I only focus on adding weight rearward, like in the stock?

Not sure yet if I'll reload, but that's a concern I have on this build; will my aspirations on reducing recoil chew up the brass?

The Geissele is definitely the one I will be going with. I heard the RRA is ALMOST as good, and at a fraction of the cost. But that the pull weight can fluctuate over time.

I thought ACOGs were 4X, not 4.5X. Didn't know the Marines used them at basic. I shot an M1 at 600 yards; one in the 7 and two in the 10. I can shoot irons, but I definitely prefer the optics.

Thank you for the input. I'm anxious to get or build my rifle, so I can start practicing.

Anything else besides an adjustable gas block is a band aid fix...proper recoil control goes via gas regulation...

If that isn't allowed...your best bet is getting proper gas port size on your barrel...

I understand. Unfortunately, band aids are all I can use in this case.

Yeah, don't know if I wanna mess with the barrel. The gas block, maybe. Looks like the best I can do is a low flow gas tube, and an adjustable BCG.

 

[Odysseus1911]

To reduce recoil -all other things being equal. . .

1. Reduce reciprocating mass. Go with the lightest BCG and springs allowed. JP SCS is great; I'll never have another AR without one. If you can use a lightweight BCG, JP makes a great one, but RCA and some other companies make really lightweight titanium ones that look exactly like the standard M16 BCG if you want to be incognito.

2. Reduce gas volume.
If you can't use an AGB, then get a custom barrel spun up with an undersized gas port as mentioned above. This will allow you to run the lighter spring and BCG. Open it up gradually until your lightweight components cycle reliably.

3. Add mass to the gun.

Having said that. . . if 5.56 kicks too hard for you, you may have bigger problems.

 

[308pirate]

. . if 5.56 kicks too hard for you, you may have bigger problems.

That is why this thread is faggotry

 

[ThunderMass]

To reduce recoil -all other things being equal. . .

1. Reduce reciprocating mass. Go with the lightest BCG and springs allowed. JP SCS is great; I'll never have another AR without one. If you can use a lightweight BCG, JP makes a great one, but RCA and some other companies make really lightweight titanium ones that look exactly like the standard M16 BCG if you want to be incognito.

2. Reduce gas volume.
If you can't use an AGB, then get a custom barrel spun up with an undersized gas port as mentioned above. This will allow you to run the lighter spring and BCG. Open it up gradually until your lightweight components cycle reliably.

3. Add mass to the gun.

Having said that. . . if 5.56 kicks too hard for you, you may have bigger problems.

1) As far as following the rules, I see no mention of required BCG or buffer system weight. I had the JP SCS in both ARs I owned; I enjoyed them, and planned on going that way as well. On the one had, I feel I shouldn't have to go "incognito", because as far as I can tell, I'm not doing anything wrong. That said, if I don't give anyone a reason to closely examine my rifle, I'll never have to explain what I've done, or argue about if it's legal or not.

2) I don't feel comfortable doing the gas port myself, so if I can get the maker to do it for me, that would probably be best. That said, once it's done, I'm more-than-less committed to the low mass BCG; short of sending the barrel back in or doing it myself.

3) I figure reduce as much recoil as I can without adding mass, then add as much mass as I feel I need. Why have a 15 pound rifle when you can have a 10 pound rifle with the same recoil? Not saying it'll make that big of a difference, just stating possibilities.

No where in this thread did I say that the 5.56 is kicking my ass. I'm just looking to make the best setup possible. Is that so bad?

That is why this thread is faggotry

So reducing recoil by adding weight is totally fine, but reducing the BCG mass and amount of gas makes me a faggot? Get out a here with your bull shit.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

That is why this thread is faggotry

Its a game with rules. Rules are meant to be bent. No one claimed 5.56 had too much recoil, but if filling the rifles with lead is commonly accepted there's no reason experimenting to find other advantages shouldn't be also.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

2) I don't feel comfortable doing the gas port myself, so if I can get the maker to do it for me, that would probably be best. That said, once it's done, I'm more-than-less committed to the low mass BCG; short of sending the barrel back in or doing it myself.

3) I figure reduce as much recoil as I can without adding mass, then add as much mass as I feel I need. Why have a 15 pound rifle when you can have a 10 pound rifle with the same recoil? Not saying it'll make that big of a difference, just stating possibilities.

Not necessarily. With low mass components you should need less gas=smaller gas port. If you switch back to full mass you'll likely need to open it up, which is obviously a thing you can actually do, unlike shrinking an oversized port.

I do think the lead weight thing has more to do with steadiness than it necessarily does with reducing recoil even if that's a beneficial side effect.

 

[...]

Its a game with rules. Rules are meant to be bent. No one claimed 5.56 had too much recoil, but if filling the rifles with lead is commonly accepted there's no reason experimenting to find other advantages shouldn't be also.

.....and thats the problem....

thats how you end up with guys in IDPA shooting full size race guns "concealed" by a sponsor jersey

.
.
.
.
.
.
there are plenty of disciplines out there where you can shoot 20lb match rifles.......service rifle isnt it.......service rifle is for shooting service rifles......not 20 lb race guns in the veneer of a service rifle.

 

[ThunderMass]

Its a game with rules. Rules are meant to be bent. No one claimed 5.56 had too much recoil, but if filling the rifles with lead is commonly accepted there's no reason experimenting to find other advantages shouldn't be also.

Well, I wouldn't say I'm trying to bend the rules. I'm going to follow them, but I'm not going to limit what I can do if there's no rule that limits me. And no, never did I complain about the recoil. Thanks for your support.

Not necessarily. With low mass components you should need less gas=smaller gas port. If you switch back to full mass you'll likely need to open it up, which is obviously a thing you can actually do, unlike shrinking an oversized port.

I do think the lead weight thing has more to do with steadiness than it necessarily does with reducing recoil even if that's a beneficial side effect.

Right, just that I probably won't open up the gas port myself.

Right. I always hear that's one of the reason trap shooters have such long barrels, to improve the steadiness. But, where do you want the weight? Wouldn't it be best kept between the rearward and forwardmost points of contact? Like between the shoulder and the weak hand? I'm speculating, I may be totally wrong and having weight in front of the weak hand may also be a benefit.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

.....and thats the problem....

thats how you end up with guys in IDPA shooting full size race guns "concealed" by a sponsor jersey

there are plenty of disciplines out there where you can shoot 20lb match rifles.......service rifle isnt it.......service rifle is for shooting service rifles......not 20 lb race guns in the veneer of a service rifle.

That may be the case, but it is what it is. Every game since the beginning of time has had people pushing the boundaries and that's the way it always will be.
As far as I know there still are divisions in IDPA for legitimate duty and carry guns at least.
And the cat's too far out of the bag in service rifle to turn back now.

 

[ThunderMass]

.....and thats the problem....

thats how you end up with guys in IDPA shooting full size race guns "concealed" by a sponsor jersey

.
.
.
.
.
.
there are plenty of disciplines out there where you can shoot 20lb match rifles.......service rifle isnt it.......service rifle is for shooting service rifles......not 20 lb race guns in the veneer of a service rifle.

If the rules state not to do it, I won't do it. But if there are no rules stating otherwise, why not do it? I don't agree with adding the weight, yet I know it's common practice. I don't believe that a rifle was ever issued with a piston system, yet it's allowed. The rules are what they are, and they aren't what they aren't.

 

[msgriff]

15"+ quad rail, A2 stock filled with lead.

 

[ThunderMass]

That may be the case, but it is what it is. Every game since the beginning of time has had people pushing the boundaries and that's the way it always will be.
As far as I know there still are divisions in IDPA for legitimate duty and carry guns at least.
And the cat's too far out of the bag in service rifle to turn back now.

Right. I had a blast shooting the M1, but given the choice, I'll shoot the AR; just makes more sense. Irons are fine, but optics are better.

There was a time when it was deemed "cheating" to lift weights. You became better at a sport by playing that sport, and anything else was cheating. Now, it's common practice. What I'm looking at may not be common practice today, but as far as I can tell it's not illegal. Maybe a revision to the rules will be made banning what I'm talking about. Maybe in 5-10 years adjustable BCGs will be the norm.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Right. I always hear that's one of the reason trap shooters have such long barrels, to improve the steadiness. But, where do you want the weight? Wouldn't it be best kept between the rearward and forwardmost points of contact? Like between the shoulder and the weak hand? I'm speculating, I may be totally wrong and having weight in front of the weak hand may also be a benefit.

I really have no clue for the game you're shooting. I have one 16lb AR and it's the last gun I'd think to grab for anything other than PRS type shooting. But it must be ideal in service rifle too.

 

[ThunderMass]

15"+ quad rail, A2 stock filled with lead.

If given the option, I'd prefer the UBR stock; adjustable, heavy, and lead is still an option.

I would like to use the SLR Helix fore end, but I don't know if it "looks" enough like an M16 to be okay. Though light, it's way more comfy that a quad rail. And if it's not okay, I'll probably go with a standard M16 fore end, for the comfort and the aesthetics.

 

[ThunderMass]

I really have no clue for the game you're shooting. I have one 16lb AR and it's the last gun I'd think to grab for anything other than PRS type shooting. But it must be ideal in service rifle too.

Right. It feels bad having a "service rifle" not be my go to combat rifle, but there are too many things I don't like about the "service" setup.

Seems like people want more weight in the rear, by the shoulder. But I'll figure that out more when I shoot more.

 

[msgriff]

If given the option, I'd prefer the UBR stock; adjustable, heavy, and lead is still an option.

I would like to use the SLR Helix fore end, but I don't know if it "looks" enough like an M16 to be okay. Though light, it's way more comfy that a quad rail. And if it's not okay, I'll probably go with a standard M16 fore end, for the comfort and the aesthetics.

Look at the Magpul PRS gen3. One of the heaviest un-modified factory stocks made.