Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
Whatever happened to the old XOTIC USS that was supposed to be revamped and re-released?
Whatever happened to the old XOTIC USS that was supposed to be revamped and re-released?
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The scope business is a business just like any other....the people on this thread that are whining that the market is not big enough is bullshit. Total bullshit. If a scope maker gave a shit they could fill this gap with an outstanding scope that EVERYONE ON THE HIDE would buy in 2 seconds and not look back.
</div></div>
+ 1. Especially the "bullshit. Total bullshit" part.
It seems to me like some folks are looking at scope companies like they are big bad corporations who make people take what they get and like it.
I guess this way of looking at business is more popular today in this country than ever before.
I'm not buyin'. These scope companies for the most part are not that big.
The idea that any of them are so secure they are comfortable releasing an inferior product thinking it will be purchased because us consumers have no other choice is insane.
If a scope like the Falcon Menace came out with hardened internals in the turrets, or a Sightron III with matching reticles/turrets and FFP for < $800, "EVERYONE ON THE HIDE would buy in 2 seconds".
I wonder if those who say it can't be done are just trying to justify their scope purchases?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The scope business is a business just like any other....the people on this thread that are whining that the market is not big enough is bullshit. Total bullshit. If a scope maker gave a shit they could fill this gap with an outstanding scope that EVERYONE ON THE HIDE would buy in 2 seconds and not look back.
</div></div>
+ 1. Especially the "bullshit. Total bullshit" part.
It seems to me like some folks are looking at scope companies like they are big bad corporations who make people take what they get and like it.
I guess this way of looking at business is more popular today in this country than ever before.
I'm not buyin'. These scope companies for the most part are not that big.
The idea that any of them are so secure they are comfortable releasing an inferior product thinking it will be purchased because us consumers have no other choice is insane.
If a scope like the Falcon Menace came out with hardened internals in the turrets, or a Sightron III with matching reticles/turrets and FFP for < $800, "EVERYONE ON THE HIDE would buy in 2 seconds".
I wonder if those who say it can't be done are just trying to justify their scope purchases?
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
I have heard back from Falcon and Sightron. No promises from either and they both said they would check out this topic.
I have heard back from Falcon and Sightron. No promises from either and they both said they would check out this topic.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snyper762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whatever happened to the old XOTIC USS that was supposed to be revamped and re-released? </div></div>
Good question. I really liked the one I had, but it went away due to mech center and optical center being WAY off.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snyper762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whatever happened to the old XOTIC USS that was supposed to be revamped and re-released? </div></div>
Good question. I really liked the one I had, but it went away due to mech center and optical center being WAY off.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
newb comment. I think most of the high dollar scopes that people are calling tactical shooting scopes are sold too military's infact most of these companies boast about the military applications of their scopes. maybe that is why the price is so high seeing that the government can afford too pay 500 dollars for a hammer. When a company gets a government contract they charge whatever the government will bear and not what the market will bear. I dont think any military would appreciate there new contract spec scope being sold for 799 when it cost them 3000 a pop.
newb comment. I think most of the high dollar scopes that people are calling tactical shooting scopes are sold too military's infact most of these companies boast about the military applications of their scopes. maybe that is why the price is so high seeing that the government can afford too pay 500 dollars for a hammer. When a company gets a government contract they charge whatever the government will bear and not what the market will bear. I dont think any military would appreciate there new contract spec scope being sold for 799 when it cost them 3000 a pop.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheArtist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If I get pissed off enough I will make them myself.
nuf said. </div></div>
I'll take one, but I want it in 5.5-25 x 50
That is a large part of the problem, getting this many people to agree on specs is almost impossible.
Let's do an experiment. I will re-post with another topic about what I want in an $800 scope, see if everyone agrees. If enough can agree, we could contact some of the companies and ask if they can put it together.
eta: OK, here it is, post up. We will see what we can come up with.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1097325&#Post1097325
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheArtist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If I get pissed off enough I will make them myself.
nuf said. </div></div>
I'll take one, but I want it in 5.5-25 x 50
That is a large part of the problem, getting this many people to agree on specs is almost impossible.
Let's do an experiment. I will re-post with another topic about what I want in an $800 scope, see if everyone agrees. If enough can agree, we could contact some of the companies and ask if they can put it together.
eta: OK, here it is, post up. We will see what we can come up with.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1097325&#Post1097325
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nlrs308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">newb comment. I think most of the high dollar scopes that people are calling tactical shooting scopes are sold too military's infact most of these companies boast about the military applications of their scopes. maybe that is why the price is so high seeing that the government can afford too pay 500 dollars for a hammer. When a company gets a government contract they charge whatever the government will bear and not what the market will bear. I dont think any military would appreciate there new contract spec scope being sold for 799 when it cost them 3000 a pop. </div></div>
You're missing the whole point of this thread. No one is complaining that an S&B or Heritage is too expensive (there are other threads if you want to do that.) They are priced whatever they are priced. What we are saying is that it is clearly possible to build a $750 scope that is a step up in quality from the falcon or SS, (since Leupold and Sightron have done it) but they are missing a big chunk of their potential market because they spec'd the details wrong.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nlrs308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">newb comment. I think most of the high dollar scopes that people are calling tactical shooting scopes are sold too military's infact most of these companies boast about the military applications of their scopes. maybe that is why the price is so high seeing that the government can afford too pay 500 dollars for a hammer. When a company gets a government contract they charge whatever the government will bear and not what the market will bear. I dont think any military would appreciate there new contract spec scope being sold for 799 when it cost them 3000 a pop. </div></div>
You're missing the whole point of this thread. No one is complaining that an S&B or Heritage is too expensive (there are other threads if you want to do that.) They are priced whatever they are priced. What we are saying is that it is clearly possible to build a $750 scope that is a step up in quality from the falcon or SS, (since Leupold and Sightron have done it) but they are missing a big chunk of their potential market because they spec'd the details wrong.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You're missing the whole point of this thread. No one is complaining that an S&B or Heritage is too expensive (there are other threads if you want to do that.) They are priced whatever they are priced. What we are saying is that it is clearly possible to build a $750 scope that is a step up in quality from the falcon or SS, (since Leupold and Sightron have done it) but they are missing a big chunk of their potential market because they spec'd the details wrong.
</div></div>
There ya go Ratbert, I'm agreeing with you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You're missing the whole point of this thread. No one is complaining that an S&B or Heritage is too expensive (there are other threads if you want to do that.) They are priced whatever they are priced. What we are saying is that it is clearly possible to build a $750 scope that is a step up in quality from the falcon or SS, (since Leupold and Sightron have done it) but they are missing a big chunk of their potential market because they spec'd the details wrong.
</div></div>
There ya go Ratbert, I'm agreeing with you.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
I really see this as a marketing issue. example there was a car manufacturer called hudson in the early 1900 that had the idea of manufacturing a car for under 1000 with all the bells and whistles disc brakes, dashboard warning lights,the first balanced crankshaft,a super six engine with more power than anything in its class. Well you know the story the big three put his ass out of business, attacking his supply chain and selling him inferior parts. I dare he sell a quality product everyone can afford
I really see this as a marketing issue. example there was a car manufacturer called hudson in the early 1900 that had the idea of manufacturing a car for under 1000 with all the bells and whistles disc brakes, dashboard warning lights,the first balanced crankshaft,a super six engine with more power than anything in its class. Well you know the story the big three put his ass out of business, attacking his supply chain and selling him inferior parts. I dare he sell a quality product everyone can afford
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
The Hudson car story and scopes are not even comparable.
Scopes are aluminum, glass and springs....with various other metals.....all of these supplies are readily available at all times all over the world to anyone at any time for the going market/commodity price. I know, I buy these metals all the time.
plus, any scope maker can make all of the parts of the scope in house, less the glass, which eliminates 100% supplier problems. And the glass, which I would use japanese glass, is easily had, and any jap glass company would stumble over themselves to sell glass on a contract basis to anyone willing to buy it. No problems there.
so, this scope can happen.
The Hudson car story and scopes are not even comparable.
Scopes are aluminum, glass and springs....with various other metals.....all of these supplies are readily available at all times all over the world to anyone at any time for the going market/commodity price. I know, I buy these metals all the time.
plus, any scope maker can make all of the parts of the scope in house, less the glass, which eliminates 100% supplier problems. And the glass, which I would use japanese glass, is easily had, and any jap glass company would stumble over themselves to sell glass on a contract basis to anyone willing to buy it. No problems there.
so, this scope can happen.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
Other than the mismatched turrets, whats wrong with the Weaver tactical?
http://www.weaveroptics.com/optics/riflescopes/tactical.aspxn
Doesn't have a illum reticle and only a simple warranty...but wait! This is the sub $1k scope page.
I've been trying; pouring over google and forums for the past week looking for dirt on these guys. Weaver comes up as suggestions on occasion, but no one has had anything bad to say about them. On the other hand not much good either, but its a fairly new model. Ive seen nothing bad about their other lines either. Their grand slams herald praises. For that magic $750 I'm sweating to get out of the sandbox.
Anybody else for Weaver?
Other than the mismatched turrets, whats wrong with the Weaver tactical?
http://www.weaveroptics.com/optics/riflescopes/tactical.aspxn
Doesn't have a illum reticle and only a simple warranty...but wait! This is the sub $1k scope page.
I've been trying; pouring over google and forums for the past week looking for dirt on these guys. Weaver comes up as suggestions on occasion, but no one has had anything bad to say about them. On the other hand not much good either, but its a fairly new model. Ive seen nothing bad about their other lines either. Their grand slams herald praises. For that magic $750 I'm sweating to get out of the sandbox.
Anybody else for Weaver?
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
There's a lot been said here. I have a thought about this. I don't think there is a scope like you're hoping for because nobody wants one.
There isn't a day goes by that you don't hear (or read) "$3K rifle - needs a $3k scope" or "spend as much on the glass as you do on the rifle" or "spend as much as you can on glass, you'll never regret it."
Forgive the analogy if you're not into cameras but I hear the same thing from photographers. "Buy that $5K Nikon D3" or "Buy that $8K Nikon D3X." Never mind that the $2.3K Nikon D700 will do the same things the higher dollar ones will do - and some things better or that a $500 Nikon D40 with a good lens will do 90% of what a D3 will. "Spend it, it's only money."
Haven't we become a society in which the measure of a man is the cost of his toys? Maybe the scope companies are putting these ultra high dollar optics out just because they know we'll pay the price for them?
I have the utmost respect for you guys here and what you're trying to do. I just think it violates everything we've said to everybody getting into long range shooting for a number of years. I hope I'm wrong. But I also hope we're seeing the light.
There's a lot been said here. I have a thought about this. I don't think there is a scope like you're hoping for because nobody wants one.
There isn't a day goes by that you don't hear (or read) "$3K rifle - needs a $3k scope" or "spend as much on the glass as you do on the rifle" or "spend as much as you can on glass, you'll never regret it."
Forgive the analogy if you're not into cameras but I hear the same thing from photographers. "Buy that $5K Nikon D3" or "Buy that $8K Nikon D3X." Never mind that the $2.3K Nikon D700 will do the same things the higher dollar ones will do - and some things better or that a $500 Nikon D40 with a good lens will do 90% of what a D3 will. "Spend it, it's only money."
Haven't we become a society in which the measure of a man is the cost of his toys? Maybe the scope companies are putting these ultra high dollar optics out just because they know we'll pay the price for them?
I have the utmost respect for you guys here and what you're trying to do. I just think it violates everything we've said to everybody getting into long range shooting for a number of years. I hope I'm wrong. But I also hope we're seeing the light.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
For many of us mismatched turrets are unacceptable.
Also I don't think anyone has used or even played with the weaver scopes yet for any real testing so they for now at least are vaporware.
Now if they offered matched turrets and for their price range if in the 750 ballpark and had good quality and glass they certainly could be a popular new contender.
For many of us mismatched turrets are unacceptable.
Also I don't think anyone has used or even played with the weaver scopes yet for any real testing so they for now at least are vaporware.
Now if they offered matched turrets and for their price range if in the 750 ballpark and had good quality and glass they certainly could be a popular new contender.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteCamp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's a lot been said here. I have a thought about this. I don't think there is a scope like you're hoping for because nobody wants one.
There isn't a day goes by that you don't hear (or read) "$3K rifle - needs a $3k scope" or "spend as much on the glass as you do on the rifle" or "spend as much as you can on glass, you'll never regret it."
Forgive the analogy if you're not into cameras but I hear the same thing from photographers. "Buy that $5K Nikon D3" or "Buy that $8K Nikon D3X." Never mind that the $2.3K Nikon D700 will do the same things the higher dollar ones will do - and some things better or that a <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">$500 Nikon D40 with a good lens</span></span> will do 90% of what a D3 will. "Spend it, it's only money."
Haven't we become a society in which the measure of a man is the cost of his toys? Maybe the scope companies are putting these ultra high dollar optics out just because they know we'll pay the price for them?
I have the utmost respect for you guys here and what you're trying to do. I just think it violates everything we've said to everybody getting into long range shooting for a number of years. I hope I'm wrong. But I also hope we're seeing the light. </div></div>
This is the relevant part. The lens is like the scope. It's easy to spend $2k on a good lens for an SLR body. Your analogy using just the bodies is a bit off. And a lens is way more than just good optical performance.
It's also easy to use a lens for a decade - same with a good scope. Yes, you need a certain minimum spec SLR body, but a good lens will make any reasonable body shine.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteCamp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's a lot been said here. I have a thought about this. I don't think there is a scope like you're hoping for because nobody wants one.
There isn't a day goes by that you don't hear (or read) "$3K rifle - needs a $3k scope" or "spend as much on the glass as you do on the rifle" or "spend as much as you can on glass, you'll never regret it."
Forgive the analogy if you're not into cameras but I hear the same thing from photographers. "Buy that $5K Nikon D3" or "Buy that $8K Nikon D3X." Never mind that the $2.3K Nikon D700 will do the same things the higher dollar ones will do - and some things better or that a <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">$500 Nikon D40 with a good lens</span></span> will do 90% of what a D3 will. "Spend it, it's only money."
Haven't we become a society in which the measure of a man is the cost of his toys? Maybe the scope companies are putting these ultra high dollar optics out just because they know we'll pay the price for them?
I have the utmost respect for you guys here and what you're trying to do. I just think it violates everything we've said to everybody getting into long range shooting for a number of years. I hope I'm wrong. But I also hope we're seeing the light. </div></div>
This is the relevant part. The lens is like the scope. It's easy to spend $2k on a good lens for an SLR body. Your analogy using just the bodies is a bit off. And a lens is way more than just good optical performance.
It's also easy to use a lens for a decade - same with a good scope. Yes, you need a certain minimum spec SLR body, but a good lens will make any reasonable body shine.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...rue#Post1306832
The Hide can be a major contributing factor to ruining a mans life for the injustice he did 25 years earlier, but doesn't know anyone on the "in" of a major corporation having to do with what their own forum covers who is able to make this simple suggestion? That wasn't intended to be pompous, just an observation. GOOD JOB HIDE on tailing that douchnozzle!
I ran across these just now as well as a rather old review
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...true#Post879631
Links to other review inside the post, ellisoptic.com for home.
1200 MSRP. HEY!!! the dollar is inflating! That sub $1k scope just got a bit more.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...rue#Post1306832
The Hide can be a major contributing factor to ruining a mans life for the injustice he did 25 years earlier, but doesn't know anyone on the "in" of a major corporation having to do with what their own forum covers who is able to make this simple suggestion? That wasn't intended to be pompous, just an observation. GOOD JOB HIDE on tailing that douchnozzle!
I ran across these just now as well as a rather old review
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...true#Post879631
Links to other review inside the post, ellisoptic.com for home.
1200 MSRP. HEY!!! the dollar is inflating! That sub $1k scope just got a bit more.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Clearidge Optics scopes look promising, but there is almost no information about them anywhere, </div></div>http://www.clearidgeoptics.com/home.htm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Clearidge Optics scopes look promising, but there is almost no information about them anywhere, </div></div>http://www.clearidgeoptics.com/home.htm
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is the relevant part. The lens is like the scope. It's easy to spend $2k on a good lens for an SLR body. Your analogy using just the bodies is a bit off. And a lens is way more than just good optical performance.
</div></div>
My point is that for many, the spending of large sums of money is what makes for a good scope. That is what I've been told for years. I've been told that my rifle will shoot better if I buy a high dollar scope.
But my ignorance is probably showing here. In what way is a lens way more than just good optical performance? What other purpose does it serve?
In any event, I hope someone will make such a scope as you guys are talking about. My budget won't allow 3 scopes in the gun safe for $9,000 - as someone else said.
Carry on.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is the relevant part. The lens is like the scope. It's easy to spend $2k on a good lens for an SLR body. Your analogy using just the bodies is a bit off. And a lens is way more than just good optical performance.
</div></div>
My point is that for many, the spending of large sums of money is what makes for a good scope. That is what I've been told for years. I've been told that my rifle will shoot better if I buy a high dollar scope.
But my ignorance is probably showing here. In what way is a lens way more than just good optical performance? What other purpose does it serve?
In any event, I hope someone will make such a scope as you guys are talking about. My budget won't allow 3 scopes in the gun safe for $9,000 - as someone else said.
Carry on.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For many of us mismatched turrets are unacceptable.
Also I don't think anyone has used or even played with the weaver scopes yet for any real testing so they for now at least are vaporware.
Now if they offered matched turrets and for their price range if in the 750 ballpark and had good quality and glass they certainly could be a popular new contender. </div></div>
It's the goddamn turrets and the crappy knobs that get to me too.
The OLD Nikon Tactical was/is a pretty good scope. Especially the few that got out there with the mil-hash reticle. IF they made one with matching knobs or a reticle to match the MOA knobs, that fucker would sell sell sell.
Nikon are you listening?
Are the Sightrons TRUE MOA, or IPHY?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For many of us mismatched turrets are unacceptable.
Also I don't think anyone has used or even played with the weaver scopes yet for any real testing so they for now at least are vaporware.
Now if they offered matched turrets and for their price range if in the 750 ballpark and had good quality and glass they certainly could be a popular new contender. </div></div>
It's the goddamn turrets and the crappy knobs that get to me too.
The OLD Nikon Tactical was/is a pretty good scope. Especially the few that got out there with the mil-hash reticle. IF they made one with matching knobs or a reticle to match the MOA knobs, that fucker would sell sell sell.
Nikon are you listening?
Are the Sightrons TRUE MOA, or IPHY?
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
What "huge market gap"?
The "Tactical market" is not overly large.
The "Tactical market" is Notably Fickle. Most who buy the gear aren't committed shooters, don't understand their needs, and don't really know how to shoot or handload.
What manufacturer gears up to make a scope for a market that is small in size and has needs/expectations that change every hour?
Until Premier Reticles introed their Heritage scope, US Optics was the Boutique Manufacturer of Choice here. Not so much in the last 6mos.
How many scopes you gonna sell for under $800 to people who think that riflescope has to have superlative lens systems to hit a target? How many you gonna sell to guys who think variable scope has to be FFP and have reticle that matches turret adjustment, plus "good glass" to be any good?
Where is the Tooth Fairy and could she morph into the Scopesight Fairy? Leave one under your pillow.
When you're hot, you're hot; when you're not, you're not!
Yet, maybe there's 10,000 to 25,000 potential buyers for any tactical scope product. Do you believe that is a "critical market share" for any mainline scopesight manufacturer?
The "Tactical Market" out of the estimated 80,000,000 USA gun owners is very small. How many Tactical Rifles are out there? How many are actually Varminters, or Longrange Bench Shooters who don't need the rangefinding reticle and matched turret, or side-focus parallax, or 35mm maintube??? How many #5 or #7 and heavier contoured barrels are out there, installed on tactical rifles rather than bench or varmint shooters' rifles?
Not many...
You look at the Hard Corps "tactical shooters" on this board and maybe there are 500 out of 22000 that actively post.
The tactical market is like a flea floating down the river with a hard-on, yelling "Raise the drawbridge"! When that flea gets the size of godzilla, maybe it is time to raise the drawbridge...
What "huge market gap"?
The "Tactical market" is not overly large.
The "Tactical market" is Notably Fickle. Most who buy the gear aren't committed shooters, don't understand their needs, and don't really know how to shoot or handload.
What manufacturer gears up to make a scope for a market that is small in size and has needs/expectations that change every hour?
Until Premier Reticles introed their Heritage scope, US Optics was the Boutique Manufacturer of Choice here. Not so much in the last 6mos.
How many scopes you gonna sell for under $800 to people who think that riflescope has to have superlative lens systems to hit a target? How many you gonna sell to guys who think variable scope has to be FFP and have reticle that matches turret adjustment, plus "good glass" to be any good?
Where is the Tooth Fairy and could she morph into the Scopesight Fairy? Leave one under your pillow.
When you're hot, you're hot; when you're not, you're not!
Yet, maybe there's 10,000 to 25,000 potential buyers for any tactical scope product. Do you believe that is a "critical market share" for any mainline scopesight manufacturer?
The "Tactical Market" out of the estimated 80,000,000 USA gun owners is very small. How many Tactical Rifles are out there? How many are actually Varminters, or Longrange Bench Shooters who don't need the rangefinding reticle and matched turret, or side-focus parallax, or 35mm maintube??? How many #5 or #7 and heavier contoured barrels are out there, installed on tactical rifles rather than bench or varmint shooters' rifles?
Not many...
You look at the Hard Corps "tactical shooters" on this board and maybe there are 500 out of 22000 that actively post.
The tactical market is like a flea floating down the river with a hard-on, yelling "Raise the drawbridge"! When that flea gets the size of godzilla, maybe it is time to raise the drawbridge...
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
Maybe y'all just need to learn what "tactical" really means.
Maybe y'all just need to learn what "tactical" really means.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
I'm not altogether sure what Tactical means, but I did not have to spend my retirement savings to get what "I" think is Tactical.
Me thinks the tactical scope market, just got expanded a tad with the introduction of these. Note: Tactical Cat loitering in background
Or a Closeup, if the Super Chicken Logo is not clear:
For those keeping notes, it's an SWFA SS 3-9x42mm FFP MIL/MIL, mounted on a Rem 700 LTR cal 308. Seekins 20 MOA bases, and Burris Med Sig. Zee Rings. My total cost $610.00 delivered, with goodies.
Or how about this:
That's my Rem 700 XCR Compact .223 and the scope is a Falcon Menace Fixed 7.5x50MM MIl/MIL standard Mildot reticle. Delivered cost $294.00 direct from the UK. Again for those taking notes: Farrell 20 MOA base, Burris Med. Sig. Zee Rings.
Now these scopes are not rivals for NF, USO, PH, S&B, or Hensoldt, nor do I intend to say that they are the quality of those brands. But "tactical" they are, and work they do.
And their costs are quite reasonable, and will allow me to shoot and practice, until I win the lottery and buy that NF or S&B, I really really want, but not sure I really really need.
Thanks,
Bob
I'm not altogether sure what Tactical means, but I did not have to spend my retirement savings to get what "I" think is Tactical.
Me thinks the tactical scope market, just got expanded a tad with the introduction of these. Note: Tactical Cat loitering in background
Or a Closeup, if the Super Chicken Logo is not clear:
For those keeping notes, it's an SWFA SS 3-9x42mm FFP MIL/MIL, mounted on a Rem 700 LTR cal 308. Seekins 20 MOA bases, and Burris Med Sig. Zee Rings. My total cost $610.00 delivered, with goodies.
Or how about this:
That's my Rem 700 XCR Compact .223 and the scope is a Falcon Menace Fixed 7.5x50MM MIl/MIL standard Mildot reticle. Delivered cost $294.00 direct from the UK. Again for those taking notes: Farrell 20 MOA base, Burris Med. Sig. Zee Rings.
Now these scopes are not rivals for NF, USO, PH, S&B, or Hensoldt, nor do I intend to say that they are the quality of those brands. But "tactical" they are, and work they do.
And their costs are quite reasonable, and will allow me to shoot and practice, until I win the lottery and buy that NF or S&B, I really really want, but not sure I really really need.
Thanks,
Bob
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
Bob,
You're spot on the money in my opinion. I have high end scopes such as S&B, IOR, Leupold, and NF. They are great optics. But I also have low end scopes that perform perfectly well for what I need them to do. It's really nice to see some manufacturers making budget optics with the features of high end scopes (sans the glass).
Hell, I wish Leupold, Burris, and Bushnell would take a clue and start building more FFP Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA scopes. I'd love to see a Burris XTR with FFP and Mil/Mil, or a Bushnell Elite 6500 with the same....
Nice scopes and nice setups you have as well...
Bob,
You're spot on the money in my opinion. I have high end scopes such as S&B, IOR, Leupold, and NF. They are great optics. But I also have low end scopes that perform perfectly well for what I need them to do. It's really nice to see some manufacturers making budget optics with the features of high end scopes (sans the glass).
Hell, I wish Leupold, Burris, and Bushnell would take a clue and start building more FFP Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA scopes. I'd love to see a Burris XTR with FFP and Mil/Mil, or a Bushnell Elite 6500 with the same....
Nice scopes and nice setups you have as well...
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
Michel,
How so? I not sure how class in an economic sense plays in to scope buying decision at all? I can certainly afford to buy an S&B scope for example, I just have to get rid of other toys and other hobbies, that I enjoy equally as well.
I must have $2-3K in fishing gear, plus boat and accoutrement's. I chose what to spend my dollar's on, I'm not dictated by current fashion or ju-ju monkey boy ear mutterings.
I read, I study and I chose what's right, based on my skill level, and what I trying to achieve.
Bob
Michel,
How so? I not sure how class in an economic sense plays in to scope buying decision at all? I can certainly afford to buy an S&B scope for example, I just have to get rid of other toys and other hobbies, that I enjoy equally as well.
I must have $2-3K in fishing gear, plus boat and accoutrement's. I chose what to spend my dollar's on, I'm not dictated by current fashion or ju-ju monkey boy ear mutterings.
I read, I study and I chose what's right, based on my skill level, and what I trying to achieve.
Bob
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
yes you are also on the spot
I would of bought less expensive if there was a good reticle in them
yes you are also on the spot
I would of bought less expensive if there was a good reticle in them
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Michel,
How so? I not sure how class in an economic sense plays in to scope buying decision at all? I can certainly afford to buy an S&B scope for example, I just have to get rid of other toys and other hobbies, that I enjoy equally as well.
I must have $2-3K in fishing gear, plus boat and accoutrement's. I chose what to spend my dollar's on, I'm not dictated by current fashion or ju-ju monkey boy ear mutterings.
I read, I study and I chose what's right, based on my skill level, and what I trying to achieve.
Bob </div></div>
just saying that company goes by the demand
and if there is no demand for middle scope that say's a lot
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Michel,
How so? I not sure how class in an economic sense plays in to scope buying decision at all? I can certainly afford to buy an S&B scope for example, I just have to get rid of other toys and other hobbies, that I enjoy equally as well.
I must have $2-3K in fishing gear, plus boat and accoutrement's. I chose what to spend my dollar's on, I'm not dictated by current fashion or ju-ju monkey boy ear mutterings.
I read, I study and I chose what's right, based on my skill level, and what I trying to achieve.
Bob </div></div>
just saying that company goes by the demand
and if there is no demand for middle scope that say's a lot
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
Michel,
Got it. Was not sure where you going, now I understand, and it's a good point.
There is plenty of low end stuff: Typified by Barska and the like, plenty of low high or high middle of the road stuff starting a Leupold Mk4's and IOR's.
I think that the market for middle of the road tactical scopes is emerging. Certainly the Bushnell Elite 4200 and 6500's, Nikon Tactical, and Sightron SIII's are not particularly cheap. Just think how they would sell with just a simple change to MIL/MIL from MIL/MOA? If they can shoehorn in FFP, and still keep the price under $1-1.2K, I think they would sell considerably more.
Just my .02 cents,
Bob
Michel,
Got it. Was not sure where you going, now I understand, and it's a good point.
There is plenty of low end stuff: Typified by Barska and the like, plenty of low high or high middle of the road stuff starting a Leupold Mk4's and IOR's.
I think that the market for middle of the road tactical scopes is emerging. Certainly the Bushnell Elite 4200 and 6500's, Nikon Tactical, and Sightron SIII's are not particularly cheap. Just think how they would sell with just a simple change to MIL/MIL from MIL/MOA? If they can shoehorn in FFP, and still keep the price under $1-1.2K, I think they would sell considerably more.
Just my .02 cents,
Bob
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
The glass on the Nikon Tactical line, the Burris XTR, and the Bushnell 6500 series is very good glass for the money. I would gladly pay another 100 to 200 bucks for these scopes for the FFP, Mil/Mil options. I can't understand what the logic behind mil/moa was in the first place. Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA just plain makes sense. The FFP is a no brainer as well.
The glass on the Nikon Tactical line, the Burris XTR, and the Bushnell 6500 series is very good glass for the money. I would gladly pay another 100 to 200 bucks for these scopes for the FFP, Mil/Mil options. I can't understand what the logic behind mil/moa was in the first place. Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA just plain makes sense. The FFP is a no brainer as well.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
I'm guessing here, but I suspect that Tactical/Competition shooters just are not enough of the market to constitute a modification to the product lines that the rest of the shooting consumers are buying without complaint.
It would help to explain why there are only a couple of small neiche brands like the SS and Falcon series scopes that cater to our requests (the big names like S&B excluded).
I'm guessing here, but I suspect that Tactical/Competition shooters just are not enough of the market to constitute a modification to the product lines that the rest of the shooting consumers are buying without complaint.
It would help to explain why there are only a couple of small neiche brands like the SS and Falcon series scopes that cater to our requests (the big names like S&B excluded).
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
has I said I would of bought bushnell, burris, or similar if they would of had a reticle of my choice,
so I bought a Nightforce 3.3-15 with NPR-1
which I am very satisfied....
so satisfied that I ordered a 2.5-10x32 with NPR-2
has I said I would of bought bushnell, burris, or similar if they would of had a reticle of my choice,
so I bought a Nightforce 3.3-15 with NPR-1
which I am very satisfied....
so satisfied that I ordered a 2.5-10x32 with NPR-2
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
www.ellisoptic.com
Some of you may remember seeing these beauties and the high expectations a year or so ago. It looks like the kinks are worked out. I have not seen any data on them as yet, but theyre SOLD OUT until February. It appears vendors are jumping all over these things. You may and probably will gripe about the mismatched reticle/turrets. The maker knows about this and this is how they are FOR NOW. He did say they expect to be making your choice turrets come Feb. He mentioned some other possible options offhandedly. My only problem that I can see (and this is only on the T and LR model) is the extensive amount of eye relief. The maker said this was for high power magnum requests for that much relief. Most shooters across the spectrum seem to prefer a lesser magnification for an increased FOV. Their DM model has all the bells and whistles WITH a sweet reticle option for ranging PEOPLE!!! 10" (head size) rings at various distances. Called a flat tire or horseshoe reticle. Found that one on the Hide. They all seem reasonably priced.
The Omega for 1150 (ar15.com quick google)
yeah....cant find any other prices ATM.
Contact [email protected] or this @the bottom of their page
Ellis Optics | 8222 118th Avenue North, Building 610, Largo FL 33773 | Sales: 646.872.7014 | Copyright © 2008 Ellis Optics
What do ya'al think? Looks like it fits the bill.
www.ellisoptic.com
Some of you may remember seeing these beauties and the high expectations a year or so ago. It looks like the kinks are worked out. I have not seen any data on them as yet, but theyre SOLD OUT until February. It appears vendors are jumping all over these things. You may and probably will gripe about the mismatched reticle/turrets. The maker knows about this and this is how they are FOR NOW. He did say they expect to be making your choice turrets come Feb. He mentioned some other possible options offhandedly. My only problem that I can see (and this is only on the T and LR model) is the extensive amount of eye relief. The maker said this was for high power magnum requests for that much relief. Most shooters across the spectrum seem to prefer a lesser magnification for an increased FOV. Their DM model has all the bells and whistles WITH a sweet reticle option for ranging PEOPLE!!! 10" (head size) rings at various distances. Called a flat tire or horseshoe reticle. Found that one on the Hide. They all seem reasonably priced.
The Omega for 1150 (ar15.com quick google)
yeah....cant find any other prices ATM.
Contact [email protected] or this @the bottom of their page
Ellis Optics | 8222 118th Avenue North, Building 610, Largo FL 33773 | Sales: 646.872.7014 | Copyright © 2008 Ellis Optics
What do ya'al think? Looks like it fits the bill.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
I have only read about half this thread. Like said somewhere above, they put mil/mil or moa/moa a lot of adjustment, zero stop, ffp and that is what the big boys have, so just like with the new razor coming out, they go into the 1800+ range. Lets be honest, how much does it cost NF to produce one scope? I highly doubt (although I dont know) but I would guess that they are more than doubling their cost on the retail price (not begruding them or anyone that), if they are only doubling it. But when you start going 3-500% above mark up thats a lot of money for something that not a lot of money produced. NF is an awesome scope obviously, out of my price rang YES! So if Falcon can make a profit on a $500 scope have what people want and still make money what is this saying, people are getting gouged. I would be honestly suprised if Falcons cost over 150 to make too, (I dont know).
Such as the new razor, they got a lot of people hyped up about it, thinking that it was going into this gap, then they came out with a 1999 tag! I personally will never buy a new one just for that. It is just apparent that these companies look at shooters in the $500 range as know nothings and dont care about you guys. Then they shoot for the 2k range and look at you like an atm machine. I dont know a lot buy any stretch of the imagination I can damn sure hit what I aim at, but I do not like this feeling I am an atm machine everytime I want/need a new peice of gear, such as the scope I need now. I think the problem is, they invest a lot into making a "good" scope and see that well we have the same features as USO, S&B, Heritage or whatever else, so although this scope only cost us a couple hundred to build, we will put it into the 2k range, because that is what the others are priced at. Instead of seeing, we built this scope for $X00 and have all the things the big boys have, but that market is semi-flooded, why dont we knock are MSRP down to 1k make 400 or whatever per scope and sell a SHITTON of them, making 4xs as much at the end of the day as opposed to selling them at 2k and only selling them at a 1:10 ratio or whatever it would be.
Rant over, just my .02
ETA: I am not begrudging any of the scope companys for making a profit that is the beauty of capitlism, you can charge whatever you want, as it is your product and your are entitled to your rewards. Just stating that a new scope might due huge making less profits per scope. But the problem then might be lack of Quality Control.
I have only read about half this thread. Like said somewhere above, they put mil/mil or moa/moa a lot of adjustment, zero stop, ffp and that is what the big boys have, so just like with the new razor coming out, they go into the 1800+ range. Lets be honest, how much does it cost NF to produce one scope? I highly doubt (although I dont know) but I would guess that they are more than doubling their cost on the retail price (not begruding them or anyone that), if they are only doubling it. But when you start going 3-500% above mark up thats a lot of money for something that not a lot of money produced. NF is an awesome scope obviously, out of my price rang YES! So if Falcon can make a profit on a $500 scope have what people want and still make money what is this saying, people are getting gouged. I would be honestly suprised if Falcons cost over 150 to make too, (I dont know).
Such as the new razor, they got a lot of people hyped up about it, thinking that it was going into this gap, then they came out with a 1999 tag! I personally will never buy a new one just for that. It is just apparent that these companies look at shooters in the $500 range as know nothings and dont care about you guys. Then they shoot for the 2k range and look at you like an atm machine. I dont know a lot buy any stretch of the imagination I can damn sure hit what I aim at, but I do not like this feeling I am an atm machine everytime I want/need a new peice of gear, such as the scope I need now. I think the problem is, they invest a lot into making a "good" scope and see that well we have the same features as USO, S&B, Heritage or whatever else, so although this scope only cost us a couple hundred to build, we will put it into the 2k range, because that is what the others are priced at. Instead of seeing, we built this scope for $X00 and have all the things the big boys have, but that market is semi-flooded, why dont we knock are MSRP down to 1k make 400 or whatever per scope and sell a SHITTON of them, making 4xs as much at the end of the day as opposed to selling them at 2k and only selling them at a 1:10 ratio or whatever it would be.
Rant over, just my .02
ETA: I am not begrudging any of the scope companys for making a profit that is the beauty of capitlism, you can charge whatever you want, as it is your product and your are entitled to your rewards. Just stating that a new scope might due huge making less profits per scope. But the problem then might be lack of Quality Control.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Such as the new razor, they got a lot of people hyped up about it, thinking that it was going into this gap, then they came out with a 1999 tag! I personally will never buy a new one just for that. </div></div>
I think I feel this way too, just didn't realize it till now.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Such as the new razor, they got a lot of people hyped up about it, thinking that it was going into this gap, then they came out with a 1999 tag! I personally will never buy a new one just for that. </div></div>
I think I feel this way too, just didn't realize it till now.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BretShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">moa turrets, Mil reticle.
Nope. </div></div>
Hes got a horrible web designer not to mention a comparably new company. The new ones are Mil/Mil.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BretShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">moa turrets, Mil reticle.
Nope. </div></div>
Hes got a horrible web designer not to mention a comparably new company. The new ones are Mil/Mil.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
i amjust going to put about $200 per month in my piggy bank for a year and then see what comes up for sale on this site and then i will have a high end scope....not too hard, the problem is i need 3 of these, so maybe in 3 - 4 years i will have all my rifles outfitted w/ FFP, mil/mil, ZS scopes...that part sucks....
i amjust going to put about $200 per month in my piggy bank for a year and then see what comes up for sale on this site and then i will have a high end scope....not too hard, the problem is i need 3 of these, so maybe in 3 - 4 years i will have all my rifles outfitted w/ FFP, mil/mil, ZS scopes...that part sucks....
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
Again it aint about the scope but your fundamentals behind the buttstock. Scope market is like golf-everybody wants to buy a game. But you can spend 3k on a scope but if ur fundamentals are not right at setup/squeeze ur just gonna miss-period 30 bucks or 3000.hatever happened to fundamentals people?? Its just marketing for all the rambo posers i see at the range.
It ought to be a rule u gotta shhot iron for a year before u can get a scope-check out the stats from korea and Nam-sez it all...
Again it aint about the scope but your fundamentals behind the buttstock. Scope market is like golf-everybody wants to buy a game. But you can spend 3k on a scope but if ur fundamentals are not right at setup/squeeze ur just gonna miss-period 30 bucks or 3000.hatever happened to fundamentals people?? Its just marketing for all the rambo posers i see at the range.
It ought to be a rule u gotta shhot iron for a year before u can get a scope-check out the stats from korea and Nam-sez it all...
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
Weaver tactical scope 4-16 & 5-20x50 compare other features to the grandslam or superslam with a x50 for eye relief ect. Theres a catalog for download but Im on a german PC right now and am getting tired of keys in the wrong place for me. If you want i can post it at a later date.
Does your tactical line of scope with the Mil-Dot reticle have turretsin Mil spacing or are they MOA/IPHY(true 1" @100yds) I would take either; so long as it matched mildot to mildot or betteryet weavers 1"true clicks to 1" reticls (not 1.047"MOA)
It is calculated in MOA- mil dot size is .24, spacing is 1 and they bothare 1/4MOA. The click value on these is 1/4" per click at 100 yards. The4-20 is 50MOA and the 3-15 is 60MOA. Eye relief is 4in at 4X and 3.9 at20X. Both are in the first focal plane- thus the mil dots change withthe magnification changes. Parallax adjustment range is 25yrds toinfinity. Thanks, Dale RadcliffeATK Technical Services
Weaver tactical scope 4-16 & 5-20x50 compare other features to the grandslam or superslam with a x50 for eye relief ect. Theres a catalog for download but Im on a german PC right now and am getting tired of keys in the wrong place for me. If you want i can post it at a later date.
Does your tactical line of scope with the Mil-Dot reticle have turretsin Mil spacing or are they MOA/IPHY(true 1" @100yds) I would take either; so long as it matched mildot to mildot or betteryet weavers 1"true clicks to 1" reticls (not 1.047"MOA)
It is calculated in MOA- mil dot size is .24, spacing is 1 and they bothare 1/4MOA. The click value on these is 1/4" per click at 100 yards. The4-20 is 50MOA and the 3-15 is 60MOA. Eye relief is 4in at 4X and 3.9 at20X. Both are in the first focal plane- thus the mil dots change withthe magnification changes. Parallax adjustment range is 25yrds toinfinity. Thanks, Dale RadcliffeATK Technical Services
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
@ $600 I could not be happier with the SWFA SS 3-9x42. Fills the gap in the market for those who want a mil/mil ffp setup for their hunting rifles.
Now I would be very interested in something with illumination, Zero Stop and multiple reticle choices that came in around $1000.
@ $600 I could not be happier with the SWFA SS 3-9x42. Fills the gap in the market for those who want a mil/mil ffp setup for their hunting rifles.
Now I would be very interested in something with illumination, Zero Stop and multiple reticle choices that came in around $1000.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
Yet another that was disappointed with the Vortex Razor price point. I think Rath is right. "the SWFA SS 3-9x42. Fills the gap" in a way that none other does, or will, for the time being anyways.
Yet another that was disappointed with the Vortex Razor price point. I think Rath is right. "the SWFA SS 3-9x42. Fills the gap" in a way that none other does, or will, for the time being anyways.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lordfaramir13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is calculated in MOA- mil dot size is .24, spacing is 1 and they bothare 1/4MOA. The click value on these is 1/4" per click at 100 yards. </div></div>
I was wrong; I dont know why I didnt catch the mistake thinking a dot could ever be .24" @ 100 yds. That would be extremely fine. It is indeed 3.6"@100yds; = metric. Im still impressed with it and am taking it to the range this weekend. Ill post some pics of my arsenal that has pissed the wife off. Spend 4,500 on weapons since I got back from the desert.
I never would have been so sure about these purchases if it had not been for the fellow hide members here. Thanks a bunch for all your help in teaching and pointing me in the right direction.
Its a good feeling to throw money at something and to know you got it right the first time. When you get it wrong you just piss in your own wheaties.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lordfaramir13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is calculated in MOA- mil dot size is .24, spacing is 1 and they bothare 1/4MOA. The click value on these is 1/4" per click at 100 yards. </div></div>
I was wrong; I dont know why I didnt catch the mistake thinking a dot could ever be .24" @ 100 yds. That would be extremely fine. It is indeed 3.6"@100yds; = metric. Im still impressed with it and am taking it to the range this weekend. Ill post some pics of my arsenal that has pissed the wife off. Spend 4,500 on weapons since I got back from the desert.
Its a good feeling to throw money at something and to know you got it right the first time. When you get it wrong you just piss in your own wheaties.
Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?
Hell, if Sightron would just change 3 things I would be happy.
FFP
MIL/MIL
MP8/TMR style reticle (meaning hash marks instead of dots)
An elevation knob like the IOR SH scope would be nice but not required.
Hell, if Sightron would just change 3 things I would be happy.
FFP
MIL/MIL
MP8/TMR style reticle (meaning hash marks instead of dots)
An elevation knob like the IOR SH scope would be nice but not required.
