Rifle Scopes Huge tactical scope market gap?

[Two Shoes]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

The problem I see with the 300.00 to 800.00 scope market is the glass is fine, the housing and the turrets suck. this is the main downfall on these scopes. Basically all these scope makers need to do is step up the turret machining tolorances and use titanium springs and hardened internals and get that stepped up to the big boys and they'd have it.

Grab a SIII Sightron, it is one hell of a hunk of metal, and w/100moa elevation, and with tracking records like it's turned in, For $750.00 a pop, I have not seen a scope that is in it's class....even close.
Leave the Caps off, a fergidabout it.
Lifetime Warranty, and Optics at least on par w/ Loopie/NF.

 

[WhiteMeat]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheArtist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone that manufactured scopes, any company making scopes could easily "fill this gap" with an outstanding scope, with Schmidt&Bender or US Optic quality housings using the same tool steel detent parts and machining tolorances with glass as good as it "needs to be" with exact matching turret/mildot plus mil-radian turrets in say a 3-9x or a fixed 8x or fixed 9x or even fixed 10x for 799.00 if they gave a crap, but as we see, they don't.</div></div>

Current website price on a US Optics ST-10 is $945.00 and that gets you a choice of mil-dot ret. / mil turrets or MOA ret / MOA turrets... Granted that it's a bit more than $799.00 but I really like mine even after getting bent over by the AUD:US exchange rate a few years back And while the $799.00 could be a realistic price for a few years, just as wages of employees go up (hopefully) so do costs to be inline with current economic factors (notice though that prices go up and rarely come down again?

)

 

[Joeyhotfizzle]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Two Shoes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grab a SIII Sightron, it is one hell of a hunk of metal, and w/100moa elevation, and with tracking records like it's turned in, For $750.00 a pop, I have not seen a scope that is in it's class....even close.
Leave the Caps off, a fergidabout it.
Lifetime Warranty, and Optics at least on par w/ Loopie/NF. </div></div>

Amen brother, I have seen the light myself!

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyhotfizzle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Two Shoes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grab a SIII Sightron, it is one hell of a hunk of metal, and w/100moa elevation, and with tracking records like it's turned in, For $750.00 a pop, I have not seen a scope that is in it's class....even close.
Leave the Caps off, a fergidabout it.
Lifetime Warranty, and Optics at least on par w/ Loopie/NF. </div></div>

Amen brother, I have seen the light myself!</div></div>

Still doesn't get you a matched turret or a half Mil hash in the ret. How hard would that have been to do if they'd thought about it when designing it?

 

[Joeyhotfizzle]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyhotfizzle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Two Shoes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grab a SIII Sightron, it is one hell of a hunk of metal, and w/100moa elevation, and with tracking records like it's turned in, For $750.00 a pop, I have not seen a scope that is in it's class....even close.
Leave the Caps off, a fergidabout it.
Lifetime Warranty, and Optics at least on par w/ Loopie/NF. </div></div>

Amen brother, I have seen the light myself!</div></div>

Still doesn't get you a matched turret or a half Mil hash in the ret. How hard would that have been to do if they'd thought about it when designing it?

</div></div>

That maybe true but I dont need all that option for the kind of shooting that I'm doing. If I was doing this for a living I would definitely invest in something that would give me the advantage. Some people (not all) buy these expensive scopes so that they can post a picture of it in the internet - but hey if you have the money then why not. They (again not referring to everybody here since some of you guys do this for a living and I Thank You) dont even use these awesome optics to their full potential.

Also our military in the past had been using the mildots with moa turrets with great success, although now this is changing and it is for their advantage and they do shoot for a living.

If you have the money buy the best that you can afford. If you are in a budget a lot of these middle priced optics will do. Hopefully in the future a company will come out a scope that is priced decently with all the options that we opt for.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyhotfizzle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyhotfizzle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Two Shoes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grab a SIII Sightron, it is one hell of a hunk of metal, and w/100moa elevation, and with tracking records like it's turned in, For $750.00 a pop, I have not seen a scope that is in it's class....even close.
Leave the Caps off, a fergidabout it.
Lifetime Warranty, and Optics at least on par w/ Loopie/NF. </div></div>

Amen brother, I have seen the light myself!</div></div>

Still doesn't get you a matched turret or a half Mil hash in the ret. How hard would that have been to do if they'd thought about it when designing it?

</div></div>

That maybe true but I dont need all that option for the kind of shooting that I'm doing. If I was doing this for a living I would definitely invest in something that would give me the advantage. Some people (not all) buy these expensive scopes so that they can post a picture of it in the internet - but hey if you have the money then why not. They (again not referring to everybody here since some of you guys do this for a living and I Thank You) dont even use these awesome optics to their full potential.

Also our military in the past had been using the mildots with moa turrets with great success, although now this is changing and it is for their advantage and they do shoot for a living.

If you have the money buy the best that you can afford. If you are in a budget a lot of these middle priced optics will do. Hopefully in the future a company will come out a scope that is priced decently with all the options that we opt for. </div></div>

That's great that some don't need or seem to want matching turrets/reticles in mil rads, etc. or even FFP.
We know that.
I for one would not want you to have to face any more useful options than what you need or know how to use if you don't want to.
Should the rest of us stop wanting these useful features as well? Or, should we lower our requirements to match those that don't need or know how to use these features. Dumb down the perceived needs of us Hide members, so to speak.

I vote for capitalist progress based on supply/demand.

 

[Two Shoes]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

The point of the post was this is a HELL of a scope for a reasonable price.

Period, end of story.

Everything else close to it, is nearly double the price, for the same quality, and features..........

As for what you want, at a price point and QUALITY close to this, it ain't happened.......and don't look for it to either...........

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

I'll look for what I please, thank you.

Not arguing the value of the Sightron III, even though it could have been even more of a hell of a value without much effort/money.

Why should we not look for what we want at this price point?

 

[ToddM]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Why not? Because companies are lazy? I don't care if it's a hell of a scope, there are lots of great scopes out there, point is it doesn't fit the idea needs of tactical shooters.

How much would it cost and how hard would it be for sightron to make their turrets match the reticule. Either by changing the turrets or the reticule. Can't be that much to put an MOA reticule in their "tactical" scopes.

Bottom line is, turrets that don't match the reticule is old news and companies that continue to provide such a setup are not in touch with the industry or the shooters in it, or they don't care to offer a product that offers what serious shooters request. The same goes for 1/8 moa knobs on a "tactical" scope.

Moa/Moa or mil/mil is personal preference, but I doubt anyone is going to argue that having the turrets not match the reticule is an advantage. I guess for someone that has used that setup for years it's what they are used to but that's a pretty feeble argument.

 

[Joeyhotfizzle]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Jeffersonv,

That is why I said If you have the money then go for it, but for me an optic that is a great bargain for the money will do. They do make an optic with all the options that you mention but it'll cost you more. You dont have to "dumb down your perceived needs" like us guys that only shoot for sports or for food. Buy whatever you want, it's your money not mine. In the end you're the one that needs to be satisfied.

If all this is as easy as it sounds an optic of this caliber would already be in existence at a decent price but it's not.

 

[Two Shoes]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

LOOK ALL YOU WANT.................When you find it clue us all in.

My point was, a LOT of folks COULD have,still could be, doing what you/I want, their not.

Not at the price point, and not at the<span style="font-weight: bold"> QC level</span>........the MOST important point.

You guy's argument isn't w/ me, it's with the 4-5 scope makers, that COULD make what you want, and at the mid range price point, but ARE not.

What I think your failing to see, is WHAT WE/YOU want, is NOT the major market...........if it was, then they would me making them.

Would the Sightron be a better optic for OUR kind of shooting,if it was as you want?.
Hell yes..................

Bottom line, it's not..........

So, until SOMEONE does it like We/You want at the price point,AND QC level, YOU either fork over the cash for the top $$ scopes, or do w/out.

Have no vested interest in any Optic line.........

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Joeyhotfizzle,

I appreciate your respect for my (and others here) quest to meet my/our requirements in a scope. I hope you know I have the same respect for you to do the same.

I wonder how much a Falcom Menace would cost if they were to sharpen up the adjustments? The technology is there, let's be realistic. Would the cost of the scope double? Triple? Maybe cost $4000 to $5000. Or, would the price be right at what we are looking for?

Last year news from Vortex scopes was that they were going to come our with a FFP and matching reticle/turret. They are doing so, but decided to upgrade the optics way beyond their previous standards and still keep it hundreds under the competition. What would the price be if they had kept their optics at their already adequate standard? Probably right what we are looking for?

Most scope companies make tacticle scopes and some are dancing very closely around what many here are looking for. How long before someone gets the recipe right?
Never? I doubt it.

 

[25 Minutes to 1K]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Until I see a 6-24 FFP scope with matching reticle and knobs and 1/2 MOA elevation adjustments for $750, I'll be keeping my 10X SuperSniper.

My simple requirements can't be unusual, and though I can easily afford a $1500 plus scope I refuse to put that kind of money atop my $800 Stevens 200 rifle, it's excellent accuracy notwithstanding.

 

[mp45acp]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

If you leave out the illuminated reticles, I see many scopes tactical scopes in the 500.00 to 1000.00 range, IOR, BURRIS, even LEUPOLD has MK4 in the 850.00 to 900.00 range.

While there is a gap going from a 400.00 SS to an illuminated reticle Leupold, there still is plenty to choose from.

If you dont get caught up in all the tacticool fever going on now, and you just want mildots and clear glass, ffp reticle, positive click adjustments, the SS10X is very hard to beat.

spend the $ you saved on ammo, thats the best thing to do.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

I had forgotten, IOR does make a 2.5-10x42 with FFP MP-8 and Mil turrets that LibertyOptics can get you into for just under $1000. That's right at the upper cusp of the price range we were talking about, but it's something.

A lot of people seem to be missing the point of the original post here...

The post is NOT a whine that scopes are too expensive

The post is NOT a request to help pick out the best scope available in a certain price range.

The original post simply laid out a few basic parameters that the author felt should be the minimum baseline for any modern tactical scope and then pointed out that the Falcon Menace met the minimum of these parameters @ $400, but if you were willing to spend 2-2.5x more than that you really didn't have any options available for buying a higher quality scope with the same minimum parameters. These parameters are:

1) Turrets matched to the reticle, preferrably Mil/Mil
2) Some sort of half-Mil hash in the MilDot or similar improvement
3) If MOA, at least 1/4 prefer 1/2 MOA clicks
4) Preferrably low-profile turrets
5) At least 35 MOA of adjustment on a flat base
6) Mk4 build quality

Arguing "this scope is good and you can live without XXX" is a fallacious argument. It misses the whole point, we've laid out a list of desired design features and no one seems to be implementing them. People keep going on and on about what a great value their SS is and how great it is as though the rest of us have no idea that it's a quality scope. We know. We get it. I'm glad you're happy with your purchase. It still does not have at least 3 of the 6 minimum design parameters the OP is looking for. You might as well have suggested he take a look at a coffee maker, because no matter how sodding nice it is and how much you like to touch yourself while you think about how happy it makes you and what a wise purchase you made, it still does not apply to this conversation. The OP is not standing around with $500 in his hand hoping someone will help him find a scope for his brand new LTR. He knows what he wants, he knows what's available. He's making a larger commentary about the state of the market.

Arguing "your market isn't big enough, these companies don't make scopes for the tactical market so you're being unreasonable to ask for these features" doesn't hold any weight with me either. If they aren't building a scope for a tactical market, then why are they putting a Mil-Dot in it? The fact that the Sightron SIII exists is proof that there is a market. Who else would they be marketing it to? Same thing for the Mk4 4.5-14.

There are a lot of scopes out there that are well implemented in that price range. The problem here is not so much that no one can build a quality scope for $750. The problem is that whomever is specifying the design parameters for these scopes is doing a piss poor job, IMHO. Specifying MOA turrets when you have a Mil based reticle makes zero sense in this day in age. It should have almost no impact on production costs whatsoever, and yet that simple requirement eliminates damn near all scopes attempting to compete in this price point. If Falcon or Vortex decide to step up with a $750 model and, instead of sinking all the extra cost into better and better glass, improve the quality of their turrets and the selection of their reticles then I think the world will beat a path to their door. And when they do companies like Leupold and Sightron are gonna be left standing there looking like idiots.

 

[Joeyhotfizzle]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

We can bitch all we want but in the end it's up to the optic companies. Unless somebody takes it further and contact a representative from any of these companies and voice our concerns.

 

[ScottyS]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

10 years ago, Leupold was the only reputable company in this price category, and then marketers took over the company. Customer service and quality have gone down, and prices have gone up.

What's interesting is that as the tactical optics market has exploded in the last 10 years, mass production has not lowered prices, rather they have dramatically increased. Part of this is US inflation (more than reported) and part is general global demand on all related materials and labor.

 

[steve123]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Well said, Ratbert!

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Either Ratbert has an easier day than me, or he can write a lot better. Probably both.

When you think about it the opposing arguments are rather strange.

 

[knockemdown]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Excellent observations & commentary, Ratbert!

I've got high end glass where I want it, but it can be hard to justify a $1200+ optic 2-500yd plinker. Ideally, I'd want similar features and repeatability, but in a lower priced unit. And I'd happily compromise on the glass to ensure an honest turret click...

Seems like all the rage is mil/mil now, but I remain comfortable with my MOA rationale. I'm not killing people or saving anyone's azz, just like to shoot steel and kill animals in season...

So again, we come back to an affordable mid price range alternative for the 'average Joe' hunter/plinker. Glass needs to be good, but turrets need to be repeatable. This is the sermon from the SS Choir that has become almost deafening, and rightfully so. Turrets ain't shit if they ain't consistent. But as you point out, Ratbert,, the SS lacks some desirable features that the big $$$ companies are known for...

Looks like now the only reticle/turret matched optic under a grand is the 'new to the scene' WOTAC. It a SFP, but new are only $300! 4-14 variable, 30mm tube SFP MOA reticle and matching 1/4MOA turrets...

They're back in stock & I'm ordering one tomorrow for my plinker 6x45 AR to replace an NXS.

I'll see how well it fills those shoes soon enough...

 

[25 Minutes to 1K]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

I agree, WELL SAID, Ratbert!

 

[Arboreal]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

This thread has really hit on some points that I have been thinking about a lot. I shoot an SS right now and I like it. The homemade zero stop I made adds a lot to its value. For hunting I just wish it had some illumination. It also has a narrow field of view.

I was pretty excited to learn of the US Optics ST-6. It is listed at $895. It costs another $185 with a lit reticle. The only catch is I want mil/mil and the ST-6 comes with a MOA reticle. I emailed them to ask if a mil reticle will be coming sometime.

If it was mil/mil I think I would be pretty happy with that scope. I am OK with a non-variable magnification if it saves me a couple thousand dollars. I am also not sure if it has a zero stop...I just sent an email about that as well.

Does anyone know anything else about this scope? The objective seems small, but it is a fairly low magnification so I am guessing that doesn't matter much.

http://www.usoptics.com/product.php?partnumber=ST-0600

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

I would think you could get a JNG Mil ret as well as the JNG MOA ret since it is available for the 1.5-6. Probably just not listed on the website. There is a LOT of stuff they can do/offer that isn't list on their website, from what I've seen.

USO's don't generally have zero stops (with a few rare exceptions,) but if you get an EREK knob you can configure it to bottom out on the outer screw housing such that it behaves very similar to one.

Also, if you order it with a 35mm tube (also not listed on the website) the scope body and objective bell will be the same size so it will be one long continuous tube. Personally I think that looks better, though it's so small that once you mount rings you don't really notice either way.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knockemdown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And I'd happily compromise on the glass to ensure an honest turret click...

</div></div>

Aye that.

I decided to go the other route. I'm putting a Horus Hawk on my DPMS. This way I can just eliminate the turrets from the equation completely (though I suppose technically they are MRad turrets, just not what I consider target turrets.) For $500 I'll get FFP and an improved reticle. Not something I'd want to replace my Heritage with on my bolt gun, but hopefully it will be a good fit for what it is.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Emailed Leupold, Vortex, NF, Sightron, Falcon, and Burris with the following:

Dear xxxxx,

Please see the following url address for suggestions on what is a glaringly obvious gap in the tacticle scope market. This is from the Snipers Hide forum.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1083933&nt=2&page=1

Thank you,

Jeff Smith

My company firewall blocked USO and Bushnell.

Perhaps others can email other companies with some suggestions?

BTW, I did this while working over the phone (multitasking) so you don't need to worry about that

 

[Joeyhotfizzle]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

There you go, thanks Jeff.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

'new to the scene' WOTAC. They're back in stock & I'm ordering one tomorrow for my plinker 6x45 AR to replace an NXS.
quote]

Huh, that's interesting. I have had one on order for over a month. Matt was supposed to email me with status updates, but I have, as of yet, to get a solid answer as to when my glass will be here. Hope it's soon.

 

[TheArtist]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Keep emailing the scope companies this thread. I'm sure lots are reading it now anyway.

glad you did it Jeff.

but for the US Optics suggestion up top for 895.00. that is not what this thread is talking about, once you get the reticle and turrets you want and place the order, the 895.00 is over 1,000.00. this is NOT what we are wanting.

WE are talking 799.00 not 999.99.

Like many have said already, this thread is not for suggestions on who can suggest a $500.00 scope that THEY like.....
This thread is for letting the scope makers know they have missed the ball and are sitting on their lazy asses and doing nothing to "FILL THIS GAP"

and we don't want some other version of some cheap ass mushy turret non zeroable compromise.

we know what we want, we will not be satisfied until we get it.

NO ONE has what we want available and WE KNOW THIS.

So we are going to keep pushing on the subject until a scope manufacture comes on this thread and acknowledges they are "on the case" and tell us that they are going to build exactly what we want. NO COMPROMISES.

I need not say anymore.

 

[Arboreal]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Thanks Ratbert

 

[gunsmithcat]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

I think the old Nikon tacticals came pretty close to fulfilling this need. The only drawback were teh 1/4 moa adjustments, but it had everything else covered. I have a 2.5-10 illum mounted on my 50bmg and it keeps on trucking. Bought it new for aroudn 800 way back when.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

There are some here that like that approach.
I think most here are into sort of a revolt against it and we don't think we are asking too much.

 

[knockemdown]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

'new to the scene' WOTAC. They're back in stock & I'm ordering one tomorrow for my plinker 6x45 AR to replace an NXS.
quote]

Huh, that's interesting. I have had one on order for over a month. Matt was supposed to email me with status updates, but I have, as of yet, to get a solid answer as to when my glass will be here. Hope it's soon. </div></div>

There was an computer issue with their pre-order list.
The 4-14x50s are in stock and I ordered one this afternoon...

 

[deliciouspizza]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

The scope industry is pretty small so there's not a lot of competition to give the scope companies any incentive to price their products really competitively. Someone came to that conclusion earlier in the thread I think.

The shortage in the 400-1000 region could also be because of a machining and construction thing, you know, like there's just no worthwhile in-between from the bargain bin scopes to the NF/Leupold quality, don't know much about it though.

It could be that and/or a marketing/target demographic thing. Where potential customers of these scope companies' are lumped into three categories: The bargain bin target shooters(SS, Bushnell) the serious target shooter/sportsmen (NF/Leupold) and then the "big boys" (as TheArtist put it, amusingly, S&B/Premiere). So, you have these groups of companies going after these demographics and that's where the competition is, centralized on these three demographics, as I see it. They don't want to go after any other demographics like you, the 400-1000 dollar guy, they want to either get the 200-300 cheap ass or the 1300-1800 serious shooter and the big boy manufacturers like S&B don't really have to do any competitive pricing because crazy assholes like me will just buy their stuff no matter what. And these scope companies all get comfy in their respective price zones, there's not a lot of competition, there's too much risk in jacking up the price and quality of the bargain bin scopes because they could lose the bargain bin market and NF and Leupold are too well established to just drop the prices of their stuff and probably aren't interested in the 400-1000 range because then people would stop buying their flagship models most likely.

So, in short, not enough competition has led to a little market growth stagnation, if you will, which is totally worth getting angry about in my opinion.

Just my two cents, running on fumes here, forgive me if I made little or no sense.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Here is the thing. We are a VERY small market (the guys that know the difference in quality and features). For a company to care what we want, they pretty much have to cater to this small group. That means that they are compasnies that don't crank out thousands of scopes. They build a good product in small numbers.

A good product in small numbers equals an expensive per item product.

The notable exception is Leupold, and look what has happened to thier QC.

I would be willing to bet that if you took a poll of the average shooter that is looking to buy a scope you would find a coule of things:

1. Most people looking to buy (and use) a "tactical" scope choose one based on price per tacti-cool appearance.

2. Most people buying said scopes will not use it to its potential or even know the difference.

3. Most people wanting a military style scope think Mil-dot means "Millitary Dot" and have no clue what a mil is or how to use it. But they want it because it is "Millitary" so it has to be cool.

4. These same people's heads would explode if they go to sight in their new scope and the target says to move 3 inches right and 2 inches up, then they go to turn the screws and they are in .1 mils.

5. Perhaps most importantly, these people think that a 3 or 4 hundred dollar scope is a "super expencive, really nice scope."

If the majority of people buying glass knew the benifits of a Nightforce or USO, these companies could sell more volume with the features WE want and sell them for less profit marigin per unit, since they are selling more units.

But it is very simple. The feature WE want account for such a small share of the total market that we are left with these high quality, low volume manufacturers. And they are the only ones who will listen to us.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Sure there some here that think that somehow mixing reticles and turrets, etc. targets a majority but I would bet these companies would make more money if they did these scopes the right way.

It sure would be nice if a scope company could confirm the above hypothesis. I don't think we would mind informing them.

 

[Arch]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Very interesting thread. Perhaps we ought to pool funds and place a full page add in the Wall Street Journal with Ratbert's post above. That market is bigger than you think.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panta Rhei</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That market is bigger than you think. </div></div>

I am not claiming that the entire scope market is not large, I think you are right. I am contending that the very very good glass market is rather small, and that we are primarily the only ones worried about mil/mil or MOA/MOA, etc.

I really think that the vast majority of people scoping rifles don't need a ranging reticle at all, much less know how to use one. And these are the same consumers that want adjustments in what they consider to be an imperial unit (and definitely what they are used to).

I really hope that the new crop of glass works out to be a legitimate contender to the big boys (Falcon, Sightron, Millit, Wonder) and have a WOTac on order that I am anxiously awaiting to test. But as of yet, the glass I want with the features I want is relegated to the high dollar arena. And as such, I have, as of yet, been un-able to find a setup that can compare to my NF.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

very very good glass is not what we are after.
I'm sure mil/mil and moa/moa will not get in anyones way, even if they don't know how to use it at first.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

While I agree that most people don't need more than a duplex ret, and could care less about many of the options offered, I would pro-offer that generally these same people don't NOT want a turret matched to the reticle. That's like saying American cars in the 70s sucked because the consumer refused to buy cars that got decent gas mileage and didn't break down every 8000 miles. The fact that people still bought the cars isn't evidence that they wouldn't have bought something better had it been offered (reference the growth in market share the Japs got during this time.)

But in any case, we are targeting people who are willing to drop $750+ for a scope. That's still not going to be your average schlubb picking out a M77MkII in a pawn shop. You can say the $750 market is smaller than the $100 NcStar market and you're probably right. But there is a market, I know because Leupold and Sightron both produce scopes for it.

I would be interested to know what the response would be if we were to call up Falcon Optics and say "What could you give me for twice the price of a Falcon 4-14FFP if you spent all the extra money on something other than upgraded glass, packaging, or advertising?" I bet that scope would kick ass, take names, and come with a lifetime warranty. It would make S&B and Premier nervous, not because it's technically better either in glass or total quality, but because it would be everything at least half of their $2800 market wants @ 1/4 the price.

Now for me, this is more of a philosophical discussion more than anything. I've got a Heritage on my high-dollar gun and falcons (and now a Horus) on my other guns and I am, for the most part, satisfied with that. I'm not sure I'm really part of the more "confrontational" attitude with the manufacturers that some seem to have concerning this. However if someone were to really make a stink and a new option did become available, I'd probably be very happy to have the chance to buy one.

 

[Strickland]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

The XOTIC came close to fulfilling this gap. However, it had Mil Ret / MOA Knobs. Too bad it didn't pan out. IIRC, it was around $750.

 

[deliciouspizza]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Yeah for every one potential customer of the scope companies that actually understands the quality of the scope and the features it comes with there are ten who don't know or don't care and just want to put whatever looks coolest on their stock stick. People are pretty dumb, the dumb demographic is pretty huge, which doesn't help our cause.

But for every one of us there's also at least ten educated people who are going to get a Bushnell or an SS because the just can't afford the next step up. It as an expensive hobby after all and if you're just using it for punching paper occasionally. Why put the kid's college tuition at risk, you know.

There definitely is a market in the 400-1000 dollar range waiting to be tapped that the educated guy mentioned in my above comment would be interested in. But still, yes, I think the problem is the market is just too small to warrant it. We're stuck with the small volume, high quality scopes or the high volume, crap quality ones.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">very very good glass is not what we are after. </div></div>

Sorry, I did not mean glass literally (clarity, etc.) I was refering to a quality designed, manufactured and featured riflescope. "Glass" in my statement was slang for scope.

I want a very very good scope.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be interested to know what the response would be if we were to call up Falcon Optics and say "What could you give me for twice the price of a Falcon 4-14FFP if you spent all the extra money on something other than upgraded glass, packaging, or advertising?" I bet that scope would kick ass, take names, and come with a lifetime warranty. </div></div>

Try it! Seriously, I would love to see that product and would probably buy one.

But the reality of it, from a business standpoint, is that they (or any other company) would have to be sure that it was a good gamble. A company can not survive if they spend cash on R&D, re-tooling, etc. for a product that they plan on making X amount profit on if they do not sell enough of that product.

They are probably pretty comfortable in their niche. To make a more expencive product is a risk. A risk that people will not think the better turrets and stonger tube and titanium springs and... are worth the extra cash.

I really do wish that there were options in that price/quality range. That range is where I would spend most of my money, but there is a void. So, I have to go one way or the other.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I really do wish that there were options in that price/quality range. That range is where I would spend most of my money, but there is a void. So, I have to go one way or the other.</div></div>

I would expect that there would be a lot of people who, instead of owning 2 S&B's, would own 1 S&B and 3 $750 Falcons (of the mythical variety described above.)

 

[ToddM]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Yep, while a big established company probably would have little interest in this market gap we are discussing.

I think for a new up and coming company or one that wanted to break into the market it would be a great gap to exploit with currently no competition. I mean think about it. We now have at least 3 solid sub $500 options the Falcon, Wotac, and SS's. However at the sub $400 price range you do give up a lot compared to the big boys. We have tons of options over $1000 (IOR, NF, Leupold, Premier, S&B, etc) for those that have tons of $ to spend. But no one offers a ~$800 scope that has matching turrets, good glass, solid adjustments with improved quality over the sub $400 scopes.

However for a new company or one looking to break into the tactical market where they don't have to sell tens of thousands of scopes a year like the big companies like burris/bushnell/leupold probably do or more, it's a serious market ripe for the taking.

As others have said look at how well the ss/falcon scopes sell....why because they offer a great features for low price point even though they have some reliability issues (and it's to be expected at sub $400 price point). If people had the option to spend $800 for a scope that was higher quality control than the falcon's with the same level or maybe a touch better glass, say Mk4/VXIII level glass, which supposedly the newest falcons already are. Then they took the rest of their $400 budget and pumped it into improving the mechanical parts of the scope....they would take a HUGE market bite from informed customers who would normally be forced to step up to NF or higher priced scopes to get matching turrets, reasonable glass, and good quality control.

I'd love to see what falcon could do if they were willing to put something out with double their current selling price. If vortex, clearidge, etc. wanted to do the same they would make a lot of sales and build a serious customer base. Not compared to the sale of hunting scopes but that's never going to happen no matter what company you are.

 

[Arch]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now for me, this is more of a philosophical discussion more than anything. I've got a Heritage on my high-dollar gun and falcons (and now a Horus) on my other guns and I am, for the most part, satisfied with that. I'm not sure I'm really part of the more "confrontational" attitude with the manufacturers that some seem to have concerning this. However if someone were to really make a stink and a new option did become available, I'd probably be very happy to have the chance to buy one. </div></div>
LMAO. I only shoot my long rifles daily so I know what you mean. Purely for discussion....

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Oh, and another thing, make your turrets large enough in diameter that you can fit 10Mil of adjustment on them. How hard is that? It seems like one guy a billion years ago made the first turrets as tall skinny pieces of shit and ever since then every new scope manufacturer seems to take that as cannon. Short and fat is the way to go.

 

[TheArtist]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

I've owned my own company my entire adult life, I have never worked for "someone else" ever in my life. I know what business competition is. When a company "finally" designs a part that everone is "looking" for but no one has made it yet and releases it on the market he sells them as fast as he can build them, then all the other companies in the same field jump on board and "copy" the part and then you have a competition on who can make the nicest for the least money.

The scope business is a business just like any other....the people on this thread that are whining that the market is not big enough is bullshit. Total bullshit. If a scope maker gave a shit they could fill this gap with an outstanding scope that EVERYONE ON THE HIDE would buy in 2 seconds and not look back.

I'm not talking about a 5-24x-56 mack daddy type scope either, What we are wanting is a nice 3-9 or fixed 10x scope that "COULD" be made with kick ass top quality titanium and hardened tool steels and springs and turrets that had "good enough" glass that could easily sell for 750.00 - 799.00 and be as rock solid with a lifetime warranty as the big boys. These scope would "fill the gap" for guys like me who want a smaller top grade scope for a 22-250 or a .308 or .22 rimfires, and all the other normal fun target shooting calibers.....This thread isn't here to say "we want a scope for 799.00 that is for a .338 or .50 that is just like a NF for 799.00" That is not what we are talking about, we want a super great dead ass repeatable zero, mil mil or MOA, mil dot, matching turret-reticle low power scope that is built with the same machining tolorances and out of the same metals as NF and S&B but with much less expensive glass that will satisfy us in this gap.

If I get pissed off enough I will make them myself.

nuf said.

 

[Arch]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

Artist, exactly. No mack daddies. A worker. Get good and pissed man...

 

[dmg308]

Re: Huge tactical scope market gap?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheArtist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've owned my own company my entire adult life, I have never worked for "someone else" ever in my life. I know what business competition is. When a company "finally" designs a part that everone is "looking" for but no one has made it yet and releases it on the market he sells them as fast as he can build them, then all the other companies in the same field jump on board and "copy" the part and then you have a competition on who can make the nicest for the least money.

The scope business is a business just like any other....the people on this thread that are whining that the market is not big enough is bullshit. Total bullshit. If a scope maker gave a shit they could fill this gap with an outstanding scope that EVERYONE ON THE HIDE would buy in 2 seconds and not look back.

I'm not talking about a 5-24x-56 mack daddy type scope either, What we are wanting is a nice 3-9 or fixed 10x scope that "COULD" be made with kick ass top quality titanium and hardened tool steels and springs and turrets that had "good enough" glass that could easily sell for 750.00 - 799.00 and be as rock solid with a lifetime warranty as the big boys. These scope would "fill the gap" for guys like me who want a smaller top grade scope for a 22-250 or a .308 or .22 rimfires, and all the other normal fun target shooting calibers.....This thread isn't here to say "we want a scope for 799.00 that is for a .338 or .50 that is just like a NF for 799.00" That is not what we are talking about, we want a super great dead ass repeatable zero, mil mil or MOA, mil dot, matching turret-reticle low power scope that is built with the same machining tolorances and out of the same metals as NF and S&B but with much less expensive glass that will satisfy us in this gap.

If I get pissed off enough I will make them myself.

nuf said. </div></div>

You go girlfriend

...build it and they will come!