OK so here goes... Isn't MOA the same out of a $500 rifle vs a $5,000 rifle? I mean what am I missing here? If I buy a $500 rifle and it shoots MOA @100m wont it still be MOA at say 1000m? I just can't believe that the bullets gets out to 300-400m and decides that "Hey, I was shot out of a shit gun so now I'm gonna just decide to veer off left 5 feet and drop in the dirt". What am I missing? Please someone help me understand...Thanks in advance !!!
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I guess I'm an idiot and need some help...
- Thread starter Tompow
- Start date
Es shows up at distance
Groups never stay the same moa as range increases. That’s why people are striving for groups way under 1/2” at 100
Groups never stay the same moa as range increases. That’s why people are striving for groups way under 1/2” at 100
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The chance to brag about how great your custom/rare/superior rifle is....
No....no...not even close. A $500 rifle is still a $500 rifle with all of the lack of refinement, questionable QC, and whatever short cut the manufacturer took to get to $500. That $500 rifle probably also has a mass produced, carbon steel, button rifled barrel that might do ok at 100 yards. Start pushing the distance though and you better hope they did a good job stress relieving the barrel and there aren't too many chatter marks.
That's why all the cool kids shoot MIL.
There's more to a rifle than just how tight of a group it shoots, but generally a premium rifle is going to be more accurate than a bargain bin rifle.
Again... I guess I'm just thick skulled but all the QC, refinement stuff off the table. The bullet hit dead center of the target where it was aimed at 100m why would it not continue to fly true to the target at 1000m? Give me something...shitty barrel, bad rifling, or anything.
Consistency. Anyone could throw together a gun and claim MOA at 100 yards but will it still shoot MOA past that? Who knows. It would be like having a computer you buy off the shelf for $1000 to play games versus having a custom built $3000 PC for gaming. One is going to out perform the other in a lot of ways.
The rifle is part of it like @Trigger Monkey stated. The other big factor is the shooter. Someone can shoot good groups at 100 yards and they can do worse at say 500 yards.
I also read something from Lowlight a little while back, and I am paraphrasing, that shooting at 100 yards is not a good test for accuracy or precision, you should shoot to 200 or 300 yards.
I also read something from Lowlight a little while back, and I am paraphrasing, that shooting at 100 yards is not a good test for accuracy or precision, you should shoot to 200 or 300 yards.
I know I might be coming off as argumentative and I apologize because I don't mean to be at all but as far as accuracy is concerned what else is there besides how tight of a group it shoots? And maybe to clarify a little, I'm not talking about consistent accuracy over time. Simply put if the bullet comes out "traveling to the target at MOA" for lack of a better term will it not maintain that same degree of accuracy no matter the distance?
Then again, a lot of custom rifle owners would be extremely disappointed in only getting 1 MOA with that expensive rifle....
Most custom barrels are $400+. What does that say about a $500 rifle barrel? It's going to shoot, yes. How long it will last and maintain that accuracy is anyone's guess. Are you going to go to IHOP for a steak or Ruth's Chris (or insert any fancy steakhouse)?
Yes, shitty barrel. Cold bore deviations, cold clean bore deviations, takes many round to settle down after a cleaning, requires more frequent cleaning, finicky with load recipes, etc. Clunky action and trigger, crappy stock, shitty bedding. All of this leads to inconsistency(man, this gun shot great yesterday!).
The only thing that matters is accuracy over time. If you dont have that, you have nothing.
It should be noted that 1 MOA = 1/60th of a degree = 1.047”
At 100 yards it is 1.047”
At 500 yards it is 5.235”
At 1,000 yards it is 10.470”
Keep that in mind because even though a target may look bad at 1,000 yards with a hit being 10” off center, it is still 1 MOA.
That’s why I use MIL’s. it’s more accurate.
At 100 yards it is 1.047”
At 500 yards it is 5.235”
At 1,000 yards it is 10.470”
Keep that in mind because even though a target may look bad at 1,000 yards with a hit being 10” off center, it is still 1 MOA.
That’s why I use MIL’s. it’s more accurate.
I've never seen someone on here try so hard to talk themselves in to buying a $500 rifle
LOL...maybe I should reword my post to be something more like "If a bullet is traveling toward a target at sub MOA @100m will it maintain that accuracy @1000m no matter the cost of the rifle it was fired from?" My question comes from a statement made by a guy at a gun counter (all experts in all things guns) that was " just because its MOA the first couple hundred meter doesn't means it's gonna stay that way" and I'm just trying to figure out in my head what could happen down range to cause it to change.. other than outside forces of course. Kinda like Newton's First Law of Motion...
Really, this is like a staple topic of the Hide.I've never seen someone on here try so hard to talk themselves in to buying a $500 rifle
or maybe it was just more common back in the day.The barrel, chamber, all those internal smithing goodies. Again, how well made is a barrel going to be made on a $500 rifle when custom barrels are $400+.
Gun counter? Trying to fact check a dude behind a gun counter is self deprecating. Just stop.
If the gun is in a vice... Sure, whatever. The cost comes from the immense labor, QC, quality of materials, lack of tolerance, and all the other whiz bang that's gonna get stuck on there to help you get the thing pointed in the right direction in the first place.
Personally I started with a $5-700 M700 VS in .308 from the store. It probably shot about a minute easy with nice ammo, but it was loud. So then I wanted a can, had the barrel chopped to 20 and threaded. I thought a bipod would be nice. After that I wanted a more versatile optic with a graduated reticle. The factory stock was trash, and I thought an adjustable chassis would help increase accuracy, comfort, body position, and it definitely did. Stuck on a level, stuck on a bolt knob, and bought extra mags. About that time I won a new barrel at my first match and selected a flatter chambering, had the action blueprinted, trigger job, and while all that's getting done, a custom ceracoat job.
All that effort got me another .75 moa, but I could have spent it all up front on the same thing out of the gate, which is what I did with everything else I put together afterwards. So you can get a moa rifle for much less than $1k, but to be competitive you'll want a nice flat 1/4moa rifle that's customizable to you. It's not just about the consistent release of the bullet, but everything you need to happen before you pull the trigger. That last ten percent of gain is ninety percent of the cost.
Personally I started with a $5-700 M700 VS in .308 from the store. It probably shot about a minute easy with nice ammo, but it was loud. So then I wanted a can, had the barrel chopped to 20 and threaded. I thought a bipod would be nice. After that I wanted a more versatile optic with a graduated reticle. The factory stock was trash, and I thought an adjustable chassis would help increase accuracy, comfort, body position, and it definitely did. Stuck on a level, stuck on a bolt knob, and bought extra mags. About that time I won a new barrel at my first match and selected a flatter chambering, had the action blueprinted, trigger job, and while all that's getting done, a custom ceracoat job.
All that effort got me another .75 moa, but I could have spent it all up front on the same thing out of the gate, which is what I did with everything else I put together afterwards. So you can get a moa rifle for much less than $1k, but to be competitive you'll want a nice flat 1/4moa rifle that's customizable to you. It's not just about the consistent release of the bullet, but everything you need to happen before you pull the trigger. That last ten percent of gain is ninety percent of the cost.
At 1000 meters, environmental conditions, e.g. wind, humidity, will have a factor. The spin of the bullet if it is too slow from the barrel twist vs bullet weight, Miller Twist Formula. The actual bullet, Match vs standard. These are what come to mind.
LOL... don't have nor need a $500 rifle. This isn't about buying a rifle... its about why one would assume just because a round was shot out of a less expensive rifle than a more expensive rifle the bullet path would go to shit over distance.I've never seen someone on here try so hard to talk themselves in to buying a $500 rifle
Effect of rifle cost at distance may well be attributed to what the barrel does to the bullet. But the reality is, at 1000 yards or more, atmospheric conditions and cartridge/bullet quality play huge roles.
- Air. It moves. Sometimes a lot. Aka wind. Consider how much effect air motion might have when given over 10x more time on which to act on the bullet.
- Air. It acts as a lens, especially at extended distance. Search for videos of a time lapse taken with a fixed camera focused on a fixed target at 800 or more yards. The target appears to move. But it doesn't.
- Bullet velocity. Factory match ammo commonly has velocity spread of 30fps or more over several rounds - makes no difference at all at 100 yards. It matters at 1000.
- Bullet deformation. Crappy barrel may impart more imperfection on a bullet than a quality one. Again, no big deal at 100, major deal at 1000.
- Bullet quality. If I pick up an irregular stone and fling it from a slingshot at something 10 yards away, you'll likely perceive the stone moving in a straight line. Fling the stone 100-200 yards... it's probably going to deviate from a straight line, perhaps a lot.
I understand I may be over my skis when I say this and apologize in advance to those with actual knowledge but I think one issue is that getting MOA at 100 is more forgiving than MOA at 1000. By this I mean there can be more wrong with the bullet’s flight and it still get into a ~1” group at 100, but those problems will affect it more over time/distance.
To analogize: if you are throwing a football to someone 10 yards away you don’t need a perfect spiral to get it to them. A ball thrown with somewhat poor technique will still get there. That same person steps out to 50 yards and you had better have good technique or else it will miss.
A high dollar rifle with a high dollar barrel should all else equal do a better job of firing the bullet without imparting problems, whereas a cheaper one is more likely to impart problems that may not show at 100 but will farther out. There are of course always exceptions.
Your first mistake was listening to some retard at a gun counter. They are far from experts, more like legends in their own minds.
Not typically at 300-400M, but this can happen during a bullet's flight:
This load shoots just fine at 100Y. Not so much at distances beyond 1K+
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Everyone keeps stating how a custom is better, not the OP's question, everyone knows a custom is better. Once the bullet leaves the barrel the rifle/barrel no longer has any impact on the bullet, atmospheric conditions or the projectile itself can affect bullet trajectory. 1 MOA out of a $500 rifle is the same as 1 MOA out of a $5000 rifle.
Funny how 90% of the reasons listed so far have nothing to do with the barrel....Shooter, trigger, wrong twist, atmospherics, issues ad nauseam.
"If" the rifle shoots moa, which may or may not happen due to QC issues, then it "should" stay that way at 1K. However, due to those QC questions, it may not consistently do so.
There, that is the issue at hand with the $500 rifle.
We don't check our dope at 100yds. We shoot as far as we can to verify. The bigger the triangle, the more precise the calculation. Because, like so many have stated above, there are countless variables effecting external ballistics, the elimination or minimization of said variables is how consistency is achieved. A shooter is the conductor of his symphony, which is nothing more than a collection of instruments all playing to please an audience. Like music, a bullet travels through air before reaching it's intended target, so you best learn to read a room.
Handmade “5.56 AR 15 Pistol Kit - 10.5” Nitride Barrel, 1:7 Twist Rate with 12” Slant M-Lok Handguard” 26” overall length.
Post #13 Look above him, he’s already had to patch the ceiling multiple times from NDs it looks like 😂 That’s water damage from Mom’s toilet backing up........
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It's MOA for the first 100 yards.
$500 rifles don't do the conversion to MIL once the bullet passes the 100yd threshold.
Custom rifles do. The more money spent, the better and faster the conversion happens. Trust me.
$500 rifles don't do the conversion to MIL once the bullet passes the 100yd threshold.
Custom rifles do. The more money spent, the better and faster the conversion happens. Trust me.
Since this is a completely imaginary gun in an imaginary scenario, imagine what might happen if the imaginary barrel strips the imaginary jacket off the imaginary bullet between the imaginary 100m target and the imaginary 200m target.
What are you actually asking and why?
Are you trying to feel good about your $500 rifle you got?
Are you trying to get yourself to feel okay about jumping on a cheap gun now rather than a better one with some savings?
There is a bit of a big difference between what the bullet is doing at 100 yards and what it is doing at 1000 yards due to all the forces acting on the bullet.
I've had rifles / ammunition combinations that would shoot well at 100 yards but simply couldn't make it to 1000 because the bullet didn't have the speed / stability needed.
Also remember that if your rifle is barely MOA at 100 yards so that someone can claim it's "MOA" when you push out to 1000 yards, that's a much bigger margin of error that could make a fair bit of difference in hits or misses.
In fairness, his initial question was poorly formulated. Had he started with the info in post 20, there would have been five replies, and all they would have said is “gun counter Fudds are stupid, stupid! ”. Instead, here we are at 42 posts and counting.
And that is why I do all of my own research and do not ask the Fudds at the gun store anything. I will hear them talk to others and most try to bullshit their way through questions from people that just do not know.
If I take a savage and work a load that's got good SD/ES and then an AI with a good load and shoot them both at 1000 yards, in all reality they should shoot similar. That's with good wind calls, good ammo, good optic, good shooting capability.
But if on the 500 dollar rifle, feed ramps are rough, barrel quality is questionable, then both rifles could be moa or better at 100 or even 200yds. But the distortion on the jacket of the bullet being fired out of the 500 dollar rifle will cause groups to open up as the distance increases. Whereas the 5k rifle does not have those issue as it is a quality built rifle.
But if on the 500 dollar rifle, feed ramps are rough, barrel quality is questionable, then both rifles could be moa or better at 100 or even 200yds. But the distortion on the jacket of the bullet being fired out of the 500 dollar rifle will cause groups to open up as the distance increases. Whereas the 5k rifle does not have those issue as it is a quality built rifle.
I think you'll find all the answers to your questions somewhere in these volumes. Good luck.
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