I guess I'm an idiot and need some help...
- Thread starter Tompow
- Start date
Any Savage I’ve ever shot.
If everyone shot at a target 10' from the muzzle, every rifle would be magnificent. Distance separates the lesser.
I get that part of it... was questioning, outside of typical environmental factors, what would shit on the accuracy over distance once said bullet left the rifle...
Did we talk about bullets going to sleep after 100 and changing the MOA at distance yet?
- Nov 3, 2010
- 10,329
- 22,461
Same…
I'll pop some corn later. Cooking dinner right now.
Does Bull Run 124 proof go okay with salted popcorn?
SH has it all.
A guy posts a question that is legit, a little weird but legit. Then 150 ADD riddled Fudds hop out of a clown car and answer questions that were never asked and go off on tangents about who knows what.
Then fights start breaking out because... reasons. Meanwhile 3-4 serious people come in and try to help by actually answering the OP's question by suggesting that a barrel might influence trajectory by bullet deformation, and the effect could show up after the 100yards. But the 150 confused Fudds have things so chaotic that those 3-4 answers get lost.
Now we are at the spot where OP is mad and challenging Fudds to a real life dual at 20 paces, and there are still Fudds posting answers to shit that was never asked.
One mega sale on velcro sneakers at the farm and fleet store would turn this place into a ghost town for a day.
A guy posts a question that is legit, a little weird but legit. Then 150 ADD riddled Fudds hop out of a clown car and answer questions that were never asked and go off on tangents about who knows what.
Then fights start breaking out because... reasons. Meanwhile 3-4 serious people come in and try to help by actually answering the OP's question by suggesting that a barrel might influence trajectory by bullet deformation, and the effect could show up after the 100yards. But the 150 confused Fudds have things so chaotic that those 3-4 answers get lost.
Now we are at the spot where OP is mad and challenging Fudds to a real life dual at 20 paces, and there are still Fudds posting answers to shit that was never asked.
One mega sale on velcro sneakers at the farm and fleet store would turn this place into a ghost town for a day.
And? Shall we save you a spot in line for the Velcro sneaker and crayon sale?SH has it all.
A guy posts a question that is legit, a little weird but legit. Then 150 ADD riddled Fudds hop out of a clown car and answer questions that were never asked and go off on tangents about who knows what.
Then fights start breaking out because... reasons. Meanwhile 3-4 serious people come in and try to help by actually answering the OP's question by suggesting that a barrel might influence trajectory by bullet deformation, and the effect could show up after the 100yards. But the 150 confused Fudds have things so chaotic that those 3-4 answers get lost.
Now we are at the spot where OP is mad and challenging Fudds to a real life dual at 20 paces, and there are still Fudds posting answers to shit that was never asked.
One mega sale on velcro sneakers at the farm and fleet store would turn this place into a ghost town for a day.
I think its actually a good question. @atomic41 posted a pretty good assessment in post #114. My $.02 follows: The OP posits a theory when he asks his question that few people on here want to acknowledge if its true. That being, that we all overspent on our custom guns. But its not true. The state of the art in gun manufacturing has progressed to the point that everybody's gun meets the standard of 1 MOA/100yds. Everybody's. You don't even get a seat at the table if yours doesnt. A better test today is 200yd or 300yd accuracy. Now things like bore concentricity, barrel steel, velocity ES/SD (all affected by workmanship/machining processes) are just starting to come into play. This is where the quality gun begins to demonstrate why it costs more. It will be more consistent (better velocity ES/SD). Maybe not more accurate. Yet. But stretch things out to 500 - 1000, and you'll find the greatest difference. The 1MOA/100yds guarantee today doesn't mean anything anymore unless that's all the farther your ever going to shoot.
OP seems hell bent to be told his $500 rifle is just a good and wants a very specific example of how a 1 moa gun is no longer 1 moa at 1000 vs a gun that is. Shit guns have less MV for instance. That factor alone is one huge reason your gun may not be 1 moa at 1k but is at 100yds this could be because of chamber pressure or barrel quality or many other reasons. You could his transonic before 1k. Or it could send your bullet into an odd spin that starts the second it leaves the barrel but isn't apparent at 100yards but still lands withing 1 moa, this would cause massively fucked up groups at 1k if it even makes it that far. Stop being dense.
- Nov 3, 2010
- 10,329
- 22,461
Draw that in crayon for me please
OP really merges two separate topics: 1. shouldn't 1 MOA at 100 yards mean 1 MOA at 1000 yards; 2. isn't a 1 MOA rifle that costs $500 just as good as a 1 MOA rifle that costs $5,000.
I think both of those questions have been answered by numerous other posters. As anyone who has ever shot out past 3-400 yards, much less 1000 yards can tell you, just because I shot a 1" group at 100 doesn't mean I'm going to shoot a 10' group at 1000, if for no other reason than the longer my bullet spends in flight the greater the chance of environmental factors influencing it's flight. A 3 mph variation in wind speed or direction isn't going to have much of an impact when shooting at 100 yards. It's going to have a pretty big impact at 1000. You really don't need a Phd in physics to understand this.
And, as another poster has pointed out, the quality of the barrel can potentially cause minor deformation/scratches on the bullet itself which affects it's flight path, particularly as you get out to 400 plus yards. This explanation makes sense and is entirely consistent with real world results. You can often tell when a barrel is at the end of its useful life because, while it will still maintain its accuracy at 100 yards, when you start engaging targets at 500 yards and beyond you will see accuracy degrade. This is a real world example of why a sub MOA barrel at 100 yards will not necessarily be a sub MOA barrel at 600 yards.
With respect to the differences between a $500 rifle and a $5000 rifle - I suppose you can have this debate about anything. Your $30 watch keeps time as well as my $3000 watch. Of course I can pass my watch down to my children and grandchildren. You can't. My PSA AR15 is just as accurate as your KAC AR15. But my barrel will be shot out at 6000 rounds, your barrel should be good for 20,000 rounds. And, if you get a little dirt in your rifle it will keep running. Mine won't. In short the fit, finish, design, materials and QC used in building a $5000 rifle will obviously be better than a rifle costing $500. Whether it is worth 10 times more is a question only you can decide, but to argue that there is no real difference between the two is just dumb.
I think both of those questions have been answered by numerous other posters. As anyone who has ever shot out past 3-400 yards, much less 1000 yards can tell you, just because I shot a 1" group at 100 doesn't mean I'm going to shoot a 10' group at 1000, if for no other reason than the longer my bullet spends in flight the greater the chance of environmental factors influencing it's flight. A 3 mph variation in wind speed or direction isn't going to have much of an impact when shooting at 100 yards. It's going to have a pretty big impact at 1000. You really don't need a Phd in physics to understand this.
And, as another poster has pointed out, the quality of the barrel can potentially cause minor deformation/scratches on the bullet itself which affects it's flight path, particularly as you get out to 400 plus yards. This explanation makes sense and is entirely consistent with real world results. You can often tell when a barrel is at the end of its useful life because, while it will still maintain its accuracy at 100 yards, when you start engaging targets at 500 yards and beyond you will see accuracy degrade. This is a real world example of why a sub MOA barrel at 100 yards will not necessarily be a sub MOA barrel at 600 yards.
With respect to the differences between a $500 rifle and a $5000 rifle - I suppose you can have this debate about anything. Your $30 watch keeps time as well as my $3000 watch. Of course I can pass my watch down to my children and grandchildren. You can't. My PSA AR15 is just as accurate as your KAC AR15. But my barrel will be shot out at 6000 rounds, your barrel should be good for 20,000 rounds. And, if you get a little dirt in your rifle it will keep running. Mine won't. In short the fit, finish, design, materials and QC used in building a $5000 rifle will obviously be better than a rifle costing $500. Whether it is worth 10 times more is a question only you can decide, but to argue that there is no real difference between the two is just dumb.
How am I being dense? Read the whole thread fucktard.... Don't be a dickhead your whole life...
Thompson Center Compass 6.5 creed shooting factory 135gr Berger un-suppressed. 0.88" 5-shot groups. 2 minute rest between all shots.
Put my SiCo Omega on her and groups went to 1.13" with the same ammo.
Your post seems to put all the right info into one place... for that I thank you. I never tried to argue the merits of a $500 rifle vs. a $5,000 one. The info I was looking for what would cause the bullet to lose that accuracy past 100m outside of typical environmental influences of course. The problem with forums, this one being no different that most, is that every google ninja wants to chime in with unnecessary criticisms and bad info and just can't force themselves to just scroll past...AND for the record I do not have or plan to have a $500 anything.
It was 1 of 4 at 1200 on a full size IPSC. It was 4 of 5 on 8" square at 567. Using Zeiss 4-16x44. Then ran out of good ammo. What was the criteria anyways? Too damn lazy to read all 3 pages of this worthless crap.
I guess I’m seeing his point.
A more expensive rifle should be more accurate; arguably. Although I have personally seen this assumption to be proven untrue on several occasions with outliers on both ends of the spectrum.
But all things being equal, once you establish that a xyz grain bullet out of a given barrel (regardless of price) will hold a certain size group consistently on target; it certainly stands to reason in my bb brain that it will shoot to the same standards of another rifle with a higher price point that holds a similar size group with the exact same round, assuming same bipod, rear rear, conditions and shooting technique.
I guess the only difference is the decreased odds of finding that diamond in the rough with a cheaper weapon.
A more expensive rifle should be more accurate; arguably. Although I have personally seen this assumption to be proven untrue on several occasions with outliers on both ends of the spectrum.
But all things being equal, once you establish that a xyz grain bullet out of a given barrel (regardless of price) will hold a certain size group consistently on target; it certainly stands to reason in my bb brain that it will shoot to the same standards of another rifle with a higher price point that holds a similar size group with the exact same round, assuming same bipod, rear rear, conditions and shooting technique.
I guess the only difference is the decreased odds of finding that diamond in the rough with a cheaper weapon.
Not sure what you are saying Conrad. I think the point other posters have made is that just because two different barrels will shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, it doesn't mean they will both shoot 1 MOA at 600 yards. This may seem counter-intuitive, but I know a couple of NRA High-power shooters who are pretty obsessive about accuracy. They have told me that, for their purposes, a barrel can be shot out even though there is no degradation in accuracy at 100 yards, because at 600 yards the accuracy starts falling off. Those barrels/uppers then become used only for practice or 100-200 yard legs of competition. Of course these guys are generally shooting custom stainless steel barrels that are replaced after 4-5000 rounds at most.
Honestly, I don't know if this is because velocity has started dropping, the barrel is imparting minor scratches/deformation onto the bullets, or some other reason. However, what this tells me is that two barrels can have the same accuracy at 100, but not at 500, 600 or 1000.
Honestly, I don't know if this is because velocity has started dropping, the barrel is imparting minor scratches/deformation onto the bullets, or some other reason. However, what this tells me is that two barrels can have the same accuracy at 100, but not at 500, 600 or 1000.
If he works hard he can graduate to being a moron in no time
My savage shoots under MOA at 100 with handloads lol. At 600 I can hit 6" plates regularly and it's a box stock fcp-sr....
...but my more custom rifle is way more accurate.
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Is it too ambitious to aspire to being a faggot by Christmas?
Jesus Christ. I’ve been on the hide too long. Watch this video and go buy your ruger rpr.
What is looser? Less tight?
You are so fucking stupid that you didn't clue in that even that meme spells better.
Here's some fun for ya...and if you can read with comprehension, and I have some doubts now that I see your spelling skills...you might learn something.
Rifle Scopes - Adapting to First Mil Scope
Ok. I'm finally convinced and will be buying a Mil scope for my new MPA PMR Pro. My question is how to adapt as this will be the only Mil scope in the stable? All the others are MOA as I shot NRA/CMP service rifle and that was the "language". The scope on the rifle now is a Vortex Viper PST...
www.snipershide.com
MILS or MOA.....ANSWER ME NOW!!!
LMAO https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/toddler-admitted-american-mensa-iq-146-history-youngest-member
www.snipershide.com
Using a Zero that isn't 100yd - Why?
At what distance do you zero your bolt action rifle AND WHY? (Mainly interested in people that use non-100yd zeros and dont shoot ELR - but still welcome all answers, should be enlightening) If you do zero at 100yd now, but tried a different distance for awhile then decided to go back to 100yd...
www.snipershide.com
What is looser? Less tight?
You are so fucking stupid that you didn't clue in that even that meme spells better.
Here's some fun for ya...and if you can read with comprehension, and I have some doubts now that I see your spelling skills...you might learn something.
Rifle Scopes - Adapting to First Mil Scope
Ok. I'm finally convinced and will be buying a Mil scope for my new MPA PMR Pro. My question is how to adapt as this will be the only Mil scope in the stable? All the others are MOA as I shot NRA/CMP service rifle and that was the "language". The scope on the rifle now is a Vortex Viper PST...MILS or MOA.....ANSWER ME NOW!!!
LMAO https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/toddler-admitted-american-mensa-iq-146-history-youngest-memberUsing a Zero that isn't 100yd - Why?
At what distance do you zero your bolt action rifle AND WHY? (Mainly interested in people that use non-100yd zeros and dont shoot ELR - but still welcome all answers, should be enlightening) If you do zero at 100yd now, but tried a different distance for awhile then decided to go back to 100yd...
I should apologize, actually. My response was more appropriate for the pit, not a more serious sub forum. So, please accept my apology and we can move on to some constructive discussion or you can continue this and I’ll start being a real dick
This ^^. If its a true 1 MOA gun, it will be a true 1 MOA gun at all reasonable ranges within the caliber's capability....sort of by definition of MOA...or MIL for that matter.
In theory, a MOA rifle at 100 yards is MOA at 1000. But because of tolerances and craftsmanship, this is not necessarily true. But I think the biggest difference is the caliber, weight of the bullet, barrel twist, barrel length, wind of course, ballistic coefficient and other variables have also a big effect.
Its funny, but my limited experience with .22 rifles, as an example, is that a .1 inch hole at 50 yards can be spread out to an inch or more at 100 yards. This is likely even more exaggerated with center fire calibers.
Negative.
ES alone that doesn’t show up at 100 will show up at farther ranges. It’s why serious shooters test at distance
Actually, anything that happens in that barrel to effect precision will indeed be present at 100 yds but may well not be discernible until it opens up at further range.
The issue is simply that a gun that is TRUELY one MOA at 100 remains one MOA by the definition of MOA (and MIL) no matter how serious you are.
You aren’t getting. We are talking about characteristics of the gun, not your shooting of it.
Nor are we talking about ranges were the caliber becomes unstable and unpredictable.
And we aren’t talking about wind or any other external factor.
As posited by the OP, if the gun…and only the gun absent any other practical marksmanship considerations….demonstrates one MOA precision then it demonstrates…wait for it…one MOA precision. This is the heart of the definition of MOA/MIL as angles.
Sure. Apologize with a caveat. What the fuck ever. I too can be a dick but I see no point initiating being a dick. I accept your apology, dick.
