not sure if hes been mentioned or not, but i would contact D. Wilson hes repaired far worse things. www.dwilsonmfg.com is his link on his instagram
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Edited to cross out. I was wrong.Wrong. You CAN NOT replace ANYTHING inside your suppressor; without an SOT doing the work. Whether F1 or F4, same applies. Distal end caps are gray area, but legal; and mounts/proximal end caps have been labeled as "not suppressor parts". Adding or changing any material inside the can is 100% illegal.
As far as the tube goes; even an SOT can't REPLACE it, without a new stamp. Only chop it down, and salvage what they can. Engraving needs to stay/be intact
Ecco Machine is a legit 02/07/SOT. What he does is totally legal; shame on you for suggesting his work is not. He's an upstanding member of the shooting community
You are allowed to assemble it, as the "maker". Once its completed, nothing inside can be changed.Edited to cross out. I was wrong.
You can't change anything inside a f1 you made yourself? If a SOT had to do the work how would you be able to make it in the first place?
Would replacing only the baffles constitute a “repair” on the registered item? Since the baffle is not an individual registered item but a part of the whole.You are allowed to assemble it, as the "maker". Once its completed, nothing inside can be changed.
You are only allowed to repair, you cannot replace. Boring baffles entirely, so as to become spacers; cutting clips deeper; over boring your cones; etc.
The permission slip granted to you by the powers that be, allows you to assemble 1 can, 1 time. An SOT has to do any recore you desired.
The baffles are a "device to muffle the report of a firearm", which, by definition, makes them a "suppressor part". There are folks currently trying to force registration of tube AND baffles.Would replacing only the baffles constitute a “repair” on the registered item? Since the baffle is not an individual registered item but a part of the whole.
Example might be a barrel change on a legal and registered machine gun, or is that illegal also?
Modular suppressors have "extensions" screw on the end of a suppressor and are a "device to muffle the report of a firearm" so by definition they are...... not suppressor parts.The baffles are a "device to muffle the report of a firearm", which, by definition, makes them a "suppressor part". There are folks currently trying to force registration of tube AND baffles.
So I agree with the ATF audibles. Not cool at all. Modular is a gray area also; and as such, is supposed to only fit its host tube, and would have no way of attaching to a firearm separately. Or have any remaining "parts" that don't fit in the completed assembly. I do not begin to condone modular, but they're built often.Modular suppressors have "extensions" screw on the end of a suppressor and are a "device to muffle the report of a firearm" so by definition they are...... not suppressor parts.
On an SBR, the firearm is registered but the lower is what's serialized. Does replacing a barrel/trigger/upper require an SOT? You are altering an SBR significantly more than you would a suppressor...
Basically BATFE makes up shit as they go. There is no legal black and white. Your dog is always at risk.
I second that motion.I make a motion to disband the A t f
Let me just check your muzzle device weld job. This will only take a sec.I don’t know if this is true at all!
I read an “opinion” that they put a wrench, essentially a hand tool only, on there and it must stay on.
My question is wouldn’t a warrant be required? If seen some pretty big wrenches so is there a limit?
Although this seems questionable.....
How are going to drip some silver solder ? Siver solder most gunsmiths use is 355 silver solder that is round or comes in a ribbon form, requires a lot of heat, actually use oxy/ acetylene. Many will use some type of heat sink to prevent heat from travel away from intended work area. Just so some reading this realize this solder is different then what plumbers use. With all that, it would be faster and easier to just weld it right to begin with.Pin and weld is such a joke. Just drip some silver solder on the hole and make it "look" welded. If the police are actually testing it to make sure its properly welded you have bigger problems.
Have you ever used any kind of silver solder?How are going to drip some silver solder ? Siver solder most gunsmiths use is 355 silver solder that is round or comes in a ribbon form, requires a lot of heat, actually use oxy/ acetylene. Many will use some type of heat sink to prevent heat from travel away from intended work area. Just so some reading this realize this solder is different then what plumbers use. With all that, it would be faster and easier to just weld it right to begin with.
You are the one who said "drip some silver solder and make it look welded" all I am saying is just do it right. What is so hard about that, you claim to have welding expirience, so just weld it and be legal.Have you ever used any kind of silver solder?
You are missing my point.
If I put 100 different pin and weld jobs in front of you do you think you could tell me the difference much less which is legal or not?
There are a number of products under the "silver solder" umbrella that can be used. Some melt with a soldering iron. The untrained eye couldnt tell the difference. Does the ATF regulation spell out the exact specification of pin and weld? Size of hole? material of pin? location? depth into barrel? Type of weld? penetration? force required to remove?
Seems like some people take the better safe than sorry approach and arc weld it on.
Because "done right" is subjective and it's an arbitrary goal In hopes of satisfying some arbitrary requirement.You are the one who said "drip some silver solder and make it look welded" all I am saying is just do it right. What is so hard about that, you claim to have welding expirience, so just weld it and be legal.
I don’t know of a single cop (at least in Michigan) that’s putting a wrench on your muzzle devices to test the pin and weldI don’t know if this is true at all!
I read an “opinion” that they put a wrench, essentially a hand tool only, on there and it must stay on.
My question is wouldn’t a warrant be required? If seen some pretty big wrenches so is there a limit?
Although this seems questionable.....
Well technically it was pin and welded.The last one I had done, some years ago, I sent it to a decently well known company that sort of specialized in doing it, especially in local ban states.
A few years later I decided to change something and it had to come off. Just for the heck of it, before I started to grind on it, I put a wrench on it just to see what she'd do. What she do was spun right off with no resistance. They made a beautiful tig weld on a pin that didn't even get through the device, let alone into the barrel. I contacted them about it and the response was basically "oh well, it happens." Nice. So what you paid for something we didn't actually do, so what you walked around with a felony for a few years.
If I ever do one again, I'll do it myself. Better price and at least I'll know it's done. Files, sanding and paint can hide a world of sins.
But then you wouldnt have plausable deniability. You honestly though it was pin and welded and had a receipt to prove it.I could have just sent them the comp, the shipping would have been cheaper.
That is the point you got from all of this? The ATF is pretty clear on what they consider acceptable in almost every issue you listed, whether you want to believe that or not.Point being that nobody here knows the laws apparently, nor does it likely matter.
Is welding half way around the device required? Is solder with 1,100 degrees minimum melting point required? is a little tiny pin soldered in with plumbers solder adequate? Must it be 1/8” pin welded on? Is silver solder dripped on look good enough to pass (which is not hard or time consuming and is obviously not structural)? Nobody has said.
Barrel Length Matters!
What we can assume is the op’s job likely won’t come off easy, and likely won’t negatively affect anything.
They are not clear on every issue.That is the point you got from all of this? The ATF is pretty clear on what they consider acceptable in almost every issue you listed, whether you want to believe that or not.
Welding: From an ATF letter specifying what is a legal weld for a permanently attached muzzle device:
"A seam weld extending at least one-half the circumference of the barrel or four equidistant tack welds around the circumference of the barrel are adequate for this purpose."
Sounds pretty clear-cut to me.
Solder Melting Point: Direct quote from the ATF NFA Handbook, discussing what are acceptable methods to permanently attach a muzzle device:
"Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over."
Again, I don't know how much more clear it can be.
A Pin With Solder: Direct quote from the ATF NFA Handbook:
"Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over."
It specifically states WELDED. There is no vagueness. Soldering without a pin is mentioned in the same sentence, and conspicuously NOT mentioned as an acceptable method to secure the pin.
I don't see how there is any confusion about using solder in any fashion to secure a pin, despite all those here that seem to want to magically create confusion when none exists. Welding is the only accepted way to attach the pin. Period. End of discussion.
1/8" Pin: I have seen no ATF directives on a minimum size. Most people use smaller than 1/8", 3/32" is common. The pin material is generally harder than the barrel, thus with pins this size the barrel will fail first anyway.
How is it Tested: This is the only place where things are vague. The ATF has been known to place the gun in a vise and apply a large torque to the muzzle device. What happens at this point is not defined. How much torque is applied to be considered passing? The ATF needs to clarify this, but we all know they won't.
You can call me Mr ATF man all you want, it doesn't bother me. Knowledge is power, and I have taken the time to learn what is what. If that makes you upset or jealous to the point you feel the need to throw feeble attempts at disparaging names, I don;t really care.Thanks for your opinion, Mr. ATF man. Of course. none of what you stated is actual law, only administrative directives and interpretation. I, however, wouldn't want to be a test case.
You can call me Mr ATF man all you want, it doesn't bother me. Knowledge is power, and I have taken the time to learn what is what. If that makes you upset or jealous to the point you feel the need to throw feeble attempts at disparaging names, I don;t really care.
And for the record, almost nothing contained in my above post is my "opinion". Those are direct quotes from ATF documents, not my opinion.
As for it not being law, you are correct, it is not law. It is, however, the determinations of a federal agency tasked to interpret and enforce the laws. And it has all been upheld in higher courts. So it is, for all practical purposes, the law. Research the Chevron Doctrine if you want to understand why.
Now, you can argue semantics on this being "law" all you want. But at the the end of it all, what is in those statements is what will determine the size of the room you live in for the next 10 years if the ATF/courts have reson to consider your fate.
I don't get the point of your post. You act all irritated, while simultaneously putting up statements saying exactly the same thing I said.They are not clear on every issue.
What size pin? Not specified.
Torque or force necessary to be considered permanent, or however it should be defined? Not clear.
Not much actual atf stuff was quoted previous to this in this thread. Just lots of banter and opinions.
Neither do I personally care one way or the other, cause nothing I own has any muzzle device pinned on.
And what I got out of it was the op has a device that is adequately secured, in the opinion of an outside observer, and probably still has a very nice firearm.
The ATF is vague in many areas.
Was that clear enough for you?
While I agree with you, the judge overseeing your case is likely not. How do you think that will work out for you?Well it’s all illegal laws clearly based on what’s in the bill of rights and federalist papers, so
It sure does:blind pinning with the pin head welded over
"Welded" covers a lot of things.
Guessing you want to work for the atf?It sure does:
weld-(verb) join together (metal pieces or parts) by heating the surfaces to the point of melting using a blowtorch, electric arc, or other means, and uniting them by pressing, hammering, etc.
And do you know which methods the ATF has approved?
From the ATF NFA Handbook-
"Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over."
You know what isn't a "weld"? Some silver solder dripped on a pin.
Sounds like I hit a nerve. Don't shoot my dog. In the ATF NFA passage you quoted, the key word is "include". It does not exclude other methods.It sure does:
weld-(verb) join together (metal pieces or parts) by heating the surfaces to the point of melting using a blowtorch, electric arc, or other means, and uniting them by pressing, hammering, etc.
And do you know which methods the ATF has approved?
From the ATF NFA Handbook-
"Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over."
You know what isn't a "weld"? Some silver solder dripped on a pin.
It says right there 1100°F silver solder, blind welded.It sure does:
weld-(verb) join together (metal pieces or parts) by heating the surfaces to the point of melting using a blowtorch, electric arc, or other means, and uniting them by pressing, hammering, etc.
And do you know which methods the ATF has approved?
From the ATF NFA Handbook-
"Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over."
You know what isn't a "weld"? Some silver solder dripped on a pin.
You hit a nerve? You way overestimate yourself. Like Beto O'Rourke-level self-overestimation.Sounds like I hit a nerve. Don't shoot my dog. In the ATF NFA passage you quoted, the key word is "include". It does not exclude other methods.
Is this really the best you have left? I am disappointed.It says right there 1100°F silver solder, blind welded.
Aka
Drizzled on a pin eyes closed
Someone knowing what the laws are, and how they are enforced, has no correlation whatsoever to that persons level of support or agreement with any of the said laws. Those two conditions have no dependence on the other.For a libertarian you are an unusually staunch advocate of unconstitutional laws.
And I won’t bother looking. I got some muzzle devices waiting on some solder dripsSomeone knowing what the laws are, and how they are enforced, has no correlation whatsoever to that persons level of support or agreement with any of the said laws. Those two conditions have no dependence on the other.
Nowhere have I ever said I am an advocate of any gun laws. I challenge you to find any post I have ever made in support of your claim.
I won't bother waiting, because you will never find anything.
I would not expect you to look. That would take actual effort to know what you are talking about. This does not appear to be one of your strong points.And I won’t bother looking. I got some muzzle devices waiting on some solder drips
Have you ever made a facetious comment and then someone gets technical so you play devils advocate and challenge their technical expertise just to keep it going? Becaue its all a joke to begin with.I do not understand why anyone is arguing with NC_Libertarian, all he did was provide BATFE determinations of law as it stands as of now. No their determinations are not laws passed by legislators, but that is irrelevant because they will enforce based on their determinations. You may believe their determinations are unjust, again not relevant, they will enforce based on those determinations. Those determinations are published so everyone can follow the law, if you believe their determinations are not legal laws and do not want to follow them, don't I could care less what anyone else does. You would be committing a felony and could face 10 years, also loose your rights to own any firearms, so if you want to take a stand against the ATF go for it, I hope it works out for, I actually don't agree with their laws either but will follow them.
Is that you Hannibalbarcara ????Have you ever made a facetious comment and then someone gets technical so you play devils advocate and challenge their technical expertise just to keep it going?