Rifle Scopes Ideas on how to keep aluminum rings tight

[jonthomps]

I have a set of BO max-50 alloy rings and a Spuhr mount. Both are 34mm and both are obviously top quality products. I mounted a PH 5-25 in the BO rings and a Kahles 624i in the Spuhr mount. Both scopes were mounted on 338LM's. I've had both work loose on me after a certain period of time (usually between 40-60 rounds). I cleaned the screws prior to mounting, but do I need to be using locktite? I don't have this problem with steel rings. What am I doing wrong?

 

[Cncjerry]

The screws only take so much torque, whether the rings are steel or aluminum. I assume you have a gap on both sides if the ring once torqued down? You are using a torque wrench of some type and following the manufacturers recommended settings? Lastly, if the base is loose the rings will loosen more quickly, especially on a higher power rifle as i found on my 300 win mag.

 

[wareagle700]

What am I doing wrong?

Spending too much money

Seriously though, how tight did you tighten them? Check to make sure the rings have a little gap on each side and nothing is bottomed out.

 

[jonthomps]

LOL, this is an expensive sport. I'm doing everything to the manufacture's specs - tightening the ring cap screws and base screws. I do leave a gap on both sides of the ring. Do I need to be checking them periodically to make sure they're staying torqued? It's just weird. The ring screws on my Spuhr mount came loose and basically ate my Kahles. The damage is all cosmetic but it still pisses me off.

 

[wareagle700]

Yeah, that would piss me off too. I have never had a problem with my rings coming loose. I do use blue Loctite but only on the base screws.

 

[oldfatguy]

Put some powdered rosin inside the rings. Same stuff smiths put in the blocks in their barrel vises.

OFG

 

[ClearwaterKen]

Hello John,

Sorry to hear about the dilemma. If I had more experience with the Spuhr mounts I would lend a hand. For the cosmetic damage, if you will, shoot me a picture of the damage and we might be able to touch it up for you.

Regards,
Ken

kpratt"at"khaybes.com

 

[Chris@InterstateGuns]

are you pushing forward on the base so that it makes contact with the rail?

 

[jonthomps]

Hello John,

Sorry to hear about the dilemma. If I had more experience with the Spuhr mounts I would lend a hand. For the cosmetic damage, if you will, shoot me a picture of the damage and we might be able to touch it up for you.

Regards,
Ken

kpratt"at"khaybes.com

Thanks for the offer Ken - much appreciated but it gives me an excuse to sell it and buy a gen2!

 

[hessian]

You say they are obviously top quality, but describe second rate performance. Maybe you should examine your assumptions.Looks like a duck to me.

 

[z71rat]

I have never had this sort of issue with Seekins... just sayin.

DK

 

[groundhogbuster]

I've saw this a cpl times in the last month or so with 338LM guns. I run steel, and aluminum, and even the tennelium (?) that Precision Armament makes. It's harder than 60-61/ 70-75 Aluminum. I know for a fact that one guy didn't loc-tite his base screws or bed his base

 

[Coltster]

Yeah, that would piss me off too. I have never had a problem with my rings coming loose. I do use blue Loctite but only on the base screws.

What he said. I'm not sure why people don't use this more often. Does exactly what it's suppose to do and you can still loosen screws if need be with no problem. I use blue on base and cap screw for many years... Iraq heat to Montana winters and no loose screws...Seems silly to me not using it

 

[Coloradocop]

What he said. I'm not sure why people don't use this more often. Does exactly what it's suppose to do and you can still loosen screws if need be with no problem. I use blue on base and cap screw for many years... Iraq heat to Montana winters and no loose screws...Seems silly to me not using it

It does seem like a natural solution if there is some problem with the base/rings coming loose... But, personally, I've never had a properly torqued set of quality rings come loose on me, and I've had quite a few sets of "I think it's torqued right... yeah, I'm sure it is" rings come loose. My Spuhr mount has been dead solid since I put it on my rifle (actually, Mile High mounted it for me while I BS'd with them, and I watched them torque everything properly). Granted, it's on a .308, not a .338LM, but it's a pretty darn lightweight rifle, and it generates enough recoil to expose any obvious deficiencies in the setup.

 

[Spock]

What he said. I'm not sure why people don't use this more often. Does exactly what it's suppose to do and you can still loosen screws if need be with no problem. I use blue on base and cap screw for many years... Iraq heat to Montana winters and no loose screws...Seems silly to me not using it

Agreed I always us a smidge of the blue on base and caps and have taken them off with no problem. Why not have a little insurance? I've even seen guys us a drop between rings and scope (cheaper rings).

 

[jagged77]

I cleaned the screws prior to mounting, but do I need to be using locktite? I don't have this problem with steel rings. What am I doing wrong?

Cleaned with what just out of interest? I run aluminium rings on all my heavy recoiling rifles up to 50 bmg (I use Seekins) and I've never ever had a set come loose. Make sure when tightening you synch down the screws equally (from corner to corner) until you are near the correct torque setting then finish off with a torque wrench.

 

[jonthomps]

Cleaned with what just out of interest?

I usually just use a damp rag. I've got a set of Seekins on my LMT MWS and haven't had a problem with them. Maybe they're the holy grail of aluminum rings, lol

 

[jagged77]

I usually just use a damp rag. I've got a set of Seekins on my LMT MWS and haven't had a problem with them. Maybe they're the holy grail of aluminum rings, lol

Seekins are very good but I've run others over the years with no issues. Spuhr are also supposed to be top of the line, you could PM him for advice? However I'd suggest you start by degreasing the screws (I use brake cleaner) but be careful not to over torque when running them dry.

 

[FailureToStart]

I personally avoid Aluminum mounts in general. Not all Aluminum is created equal and I'm not saying the remainder of this post is remotely relevant to the discussion.

Some forms of Aluminum can "Cold Flow" and actually loosen up over time. I've seen this countless times on car wheels, especially on cars that have not moved for years - some Aluminum rims will actually show that they've bent slightly under the weight of the car. To my knowledge, Aluminum is also not allowed in electrical wiring anymore for this same reason. Apparently in old houses with aluminum wiring, the fastners in the outlets/switches/whatever would loosen up over time as the aluminum wire conformed to the shape and eventually the unit would over heat and possibly cause a fire.

I've also seen it with aluminum engine blocks and cylinder heads. There is also an issue with dissimilar metal corrosion between steel screws and aluminum threads. Ever hear of someone taking in a car for new plugs and having a major ordeal because the steel plug threads stripped out the aluminum head threads on the way out? It does happen, way more than you want to know. This was actually a fairly significant problem when they started putting aluminum heads on engines right as they were introducing longer life "iridium" and whatnot plugs.

I currently have exactly one set of aluminum optic rings and its on a .22LR Trainer. IF I were to make a DMR, I'd probably end up with a set of quality aluminum rings or mount but I'd check the torque on my mounting screws frequently. Loctite, believe it or not, can actually make all of this worse. I personally degrease everything really well and use an anti-seize compound on my screws. Once everything is happy I put witness marks on the screw heads to make sure they aren't moving.

 

[scudzuki]

Blue Loctite or any brand removable grade threadlocker (Permatex, etc.) should fix it right up.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Coltster]

I personally avoid Aluminum mounts in general. Not all Aluminum is created equal and I'm not saying the remainder of this post is remotely relevant to the discussion.

Some forms of Aluminum can "Cold Flow" and actually loosen up over time. I've seen this countless times on car wheels, especially on cars that have not moved for years - some Aluminum rims will actually show that they've bent slightly under the weight of the car. To my knowledge, Aluminum is also not allowed in electrical wiring anymore for this same reason. Apparently in old houses with aluminum wiring, the fastners in the outlets/switches/whatever would loosen up over time as the aluminum wire conformed to the shape and eventually the unit would over heat and possibly cause a fire.

I've also seen it with aluminum engine blocks and cylinder heads. There is also an issue with dissimilar metal corrosion between steel screws and aluminum threads. Ever hear of someone taking in a car for new plugs and having a major ordeal because the steel plug threads stripped out the aluminum head threads on the way out? It does happen, way more than you want to know. This was actually a fairly significant problem when they started putting aluminum heads on engines right as they were introducing longer life "iridium" and whatnot plugs.

I currently have exactly one set of aluminum optic rings and its on a .22LR Trainer. IF I were to make a DMR, I'd probably end up with a set of quality aluminum rings or mount but I'd check the torque on my mounting screws frequently. Loctite, believe it or not, can actually make all of this worse. I personally degrease everything really well and use an anti-seize compound on my screws. Once everything is happy I put witness marks on the screw heads to make sure they aren't moving.

One of Loctite's benefits is specifically "Prevention of Galvanic Corrosion" or assembly of different metals. I don't see how this could make things worse, especially since it has been used in this exact application (alluminium rings/steel screws) for many many years. I am a fan of witness marks with a small paint marker to keep an eye on unwanted creep, in addition to loctite.

 

[Cncjerry]

I regularly check the torque on my 300 win mag screws as the gun doesn't have a brake. I would think this should be standard practice. Have torque wrench will travel, I checked a bunch of guys scope at the range yesterday and they were all loose.

From above:

Putting rosin under the rings is a good idea.

To get the proper torque, bolts need a light oil coating on the threads and under the head, better having a washer but not an option with these small cap head screws. Otherwise the screw will bind on the threads or on the metal near the head. If you are picky like me, you spin the screws on a lathe and polish the under-side of the head.

Replace the slotted screws with socket head cap screws (SHCS) for higher reliability and less risk of damage to surrounding metal. Keep them for classic looks, as I prefer.

Aluminum (or aluminium ror the Brits) flows into the screw, no question, over time they get almost impossible to release. They do the little 'snap' that scares the hell out of you when you try to loosen them from an expensive aluminum block as my Italian cars. Lots of horror stories, I would say the majority of broken screws I've removed are in aluminum.

After much research, blue loctite under the scope mount/base works better than not. You can also see when it loosens with a jeweler's loop by torquing the scope while examining the joint. The crack stands out better.

Blue loctite on the scope rings is risky, especially if you have slotted screws not SHCS bolts. Probably will invalidate a warranty if you use loctite. You minimize the risk by using a hot soldering iron on the bolt or a small butane torch on the hex wench as you apply torque. The heat works down the wrench to the screw and blue loctite will give. A better, less risky approach is gel superglue. It will loosen under heat and holds as well as blue loctite for small screws including set screws.

As I mentioned above, scope rings will loosen more quickly if the base is loose which is more common. Check the front screw as on a 700 the barrel blocks the hole and the bolt will bottom on the barrel at the proper torque without holding the mount.

That is the sum total of my knowledge on scope rings, aluminum bolts, torquing, etc. check the machinery handbook for more.

 

[FailureToStart]

One of Loctite's benefits is specifically "Prevention of Galvanic Corrosion" or assembly of different metals. I don't see how this could make things worse, especially since it has been used in this exact application (alluminium rings/steel screws) for many many years. I am a fan of witness marks with a small paint marker to keep an eye on unwanted creep, in addition to loctite.

Yes, however if you miss anything you get the corrosion and an adhesive of sorts.

 

[The_FNG]

If you dont have Loctite handy, steal some of your girls nail polish in your favourite colour.

 

[damoncali]

There is nothing wrong with aluminum. I have a set of aluminum rings that have been sitting for 14 years without being touched. They work fine and don't move. If your scope slips it's a matter of not having enough friction, which means either a poor fit or not enough torque on the screws (probably bad fit). Rosin can help here. As can lapping the rings.

As a side note, I don't understand why people spend so much on rings. Well, maybe if you're using it in combat it makes sense to get something extra strong, but otherwise? Check out a set of Burris signature zee rings. Cheap, innovative, and they work.

 

[Coltster]

I regularly check the torque on my 300 win mag screws as the gun doesn't have a brake. I would think this should be standard practice. Have torque wrench will travel, I checked a bunch of guys scope at the range yesterday and they were all loose.

From above:

Putting rosin under the rings is a good idea.

To get the proper torque, bolts need a light oil coating on the threads and under the head, better having a washer but not an option with these small cap head screws. Otherwise the screw will bind on the threads or on the metal near the head. If you are picky like me, you spin the screws on a lathe and polish the under-side of the head.

Replace the slotted screws with socket head cap screws (SHCS) for higher reliability and less risk of damage to surrounding metal. Keep them for classic looks, as I prefer.

Aluminum (or aluminium ror the Brits) flows into the screw, no question, over time they get almost impossible to release. They do the little 'snap' that scares the hell out of you when you try to loosen them from an expensive aluminum block as my Italian cars. Lots of horror stories, I would say the majority of broken screws I've removed are in aluminum.

After much research, blue loctite under the scope mount/base works better than not. You can also see when it loosens with a jeweler's loop by torquing the scope while examining the joint. The crack stands out better.

Blue loctite on the scope rings is risky, especially if you have slotted screws not SHCS bolts. Probably will invalidate a warranty if you use loctite. You minimize the risk by using a hot soldering iron on the bolt or a small butane torch on the hex wench as you apply torque. The heat works down the wrench to the screw and blue loctite will give. A better, less risky approach is gel superglue. It will loosen under heat and holds as well as blue loctite for small screws including set screws.

As I mentioned above, scope rings will loosen more quickly if the base is loose which is more common. Check the front screw as on a 700 the barrel blocks the hole and the bolt will bottom on the barrel at the proper torque without holding the mount.

That is the sum total of my knowledge on scope rings, aluminum bolts, torquing, etc. check the machinery handbook for more.

Aluminum Head bolts that are torqued to 70FT-LBS are allot different than ring caps at 15-20 INCH-LB and yes they are usually Grade 8 Torx or Allen head not slotted screws.
Never had a problem with snapped screws or anything of the sort when taking them apart after years of use with blue loctite. Use BLUE LOCTITE...NOT RED for cheap insurance!

 

[scotharr]

aluminum rings work great. Loctite is your friend: purple or blue variety. If you shoot enough and don't use loctite, your stuff will eventually work loose. If you want it to stay put, loctite it. Nuff said.

 

[distantfoe]

If a torque wrench was used, backlash from the wrench could be the issue. Seen it happen on steel and aluminum rings.

It's important once the wrench breaks over, tighten the screw again using enough torque to almost cam the wrench back over. If the screw moves, it's obvious there's a backlash issue.

 

[Cncjerry]

If a torque wrench was used, backlash from the wrench could be the issue. Seen it happen on steel and aluminum rings.

It's important once the wrench breaks over, tighten the screw again using enough torque to almost cam the wrench back over. If the screw moves, it's obvious there's a backlash issue.

Good point.

 

[scudzuki]

I personally avoid Aluminum mounts in general. Not all Aluminum is created equal and I'm not saying the remainder of this post is remotely relevant to the discussion.

Some forms of Aluminum can "Cold Flow" and actually loosen up over time. I've seen this countless times on car wheels, especially on cars that have not moved for years - some Aluminum rims will actually show that they've bent slightly under the weight of the car. To my knowledge, Aluminum is also not allowed in electrical wiring anymore for this same reason. Apparently in old houses with aluminum wiring, the fastners in the outlets/switches/whatever would loosen up over time as the aluminum wire conformed to the shape and eventually the unit would over heat and possibly cause a fire.

I've also seen it with aluminum engine blocks and cylinder heads. There is also an issue with dissimilar metal corrosion between steel screws and aluminum threads. Ever hear of someone taking in a car for new plugs and having a major ordeal because the steel plug threads stripped out the aluminum head threads on the way out? It does happen, way more than you want to know. This was actually a fairly significant problem when they started putting aluminum heads on engines right as they were introducing longer life "iridium" and whatnot plugs.

I currently have exactly one set of aluminum optic rings and its on a .22LR Trainer. IF I were to make a DMR, I'd probably end up with a set of quality aluminum rings or mount but I'd check the torque on my mounting screws frequently. Loctite, believe it or not, can actually make all of this worse. I personally degrease everything really well and use an anti-seize compound on my screws. Once everything is happy I put witness marks on the screw heads to make sure they aren't moving.

Fascinating.
Better alert the aerospace industry, sounds like aluminum is a problem waiting to happen.

re: aluminum wheels bending from material "flowing", bullshit.

Aluminum does not flow unless you heat it to its melting point, period.

Where did you study metallurgy?

As for galvanic action causing a nobler metal to sacrifice itself when in contact with another metal, yes, that can happen if a joint is not properly prepped.
Aluminum that has been hard anodized in contact with steel fasteners is not one of those scenarios where galvanic corrosion occurs, much less if a thread dressing like Loctite is used.

Good luck running heavy steel mounts; I'll trust my optics to the same material your average F-22 Raptor fighter jet is made out of, aluminum.

Joe

 

[Aries64]

Throughly de-grease all mating surfaces

I usually just use a damp rag. I've got a set of Seekins on my LMT MWS and haven't had a problem with them. Maybe they're the holy grail of aluminum rings, lol

Dampened with what? Denatured alcohol is best, but brake cleaner works very well too. In a pinch even isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol works OK. The main thing is that you thoroughly de-grease ALL mating surfaces. I use a piece of clean, old tee-shirt or HD paper towel WET (not just damp) with the cleaning agent and spin the screw into said cloth/paper towel from beginning to end of the threads, then use a different section of the cloth/paper towel and run the screw back out quick while the screw is still wet or damp with the cleaning agent. I keep cleaning until the cloth/paper towel comes out clean.

Remember I said "ALL mating surfaces". Are you de-greasing the holes? What about where the scope tube and ring tops mate? If not, you're only doing half the job. I de-grease the scope tube, ring tops, and screw holes just as thoroughly as I de-grease the screws. I use Q-Tips for the screw holes. If Q-Tips are too big even after tearing-off some cotton just wrap a small piece of paper towel around the Q-Tip's barrel and run it into the threads and back out. Just as when de-greasing screws repeat as many times as it takes to get the threads completely clean. Do it right and you shouldn't have to do it a second time.

Also, are you snugging and tightening-down the screws evenly (i.e. turning each screw an equal amount as the other screws) in a set sequence? It sounds weird, but if you tighten one side down a bunch all-at-once and then tighten down the opposite side a bunch all-at-once to "even" them-out, there will actually a bit of preload placed on the side that was tightened-down first because the ring top will contact that side of the scope tube first. That's why I always tighten equally in a cross-pattern when snugging-down, tightening, and torquing.

Finally, as Chris@SportOptics asked, when you clamp the rings onto the rail/base do you push each ring forward so that the front of each ring contacts the rear face of the rail? If you don't, the rings can and will slip forward under recoil, resulting in erratic (inconsistent) POI as well as possibly causing slow wear to the finish of the base and ring clamps.


Keith

 

[F-TROOP]

Same issue with my aluminum rings, mounted on a Smith scope mount welded to an M1A. Will try blue Loctite.

 

[Pinecone]

To my knowledge, Aluminum is also not allowed in electrical wiring anymore for this same reason. Apparently in old houses with aluminum wiring, the fastners in the outlets/switches/whatever would loosen up over time as the aluminum wire conformed to the shape and eventually the unit would over heat and possibly cause a fire.

The problem with aluminum wiring is that corrosion occurs at the connections. Corrosion increases the resistance, which causes heat, which eventually can cause a fire.

Aluminum wiring is still used in home, but only for the main feeds or feeds to sub panels. But the assumption is that there, the installation will be done properly with a anti corrosion grease used.

 

[Pinecone]

Loctite 24x (242, 243, etc) would be fine and easily removable.

If you are worried about the ring cap screws, get some Loctite 222. This is low strength for small fasteners.

But I do RC helicopters and use 242 on screws down to 1.5 mm with out problems.

Watch stating only color, as different brands use different color coding, and there are multiple products within a line that are the same color.

Green is a common one. There is Loctite 290 (and 220 which is low strength for small fasteners) which is green and used for locking already assembled fasteners, called Wicking Grade. You can tighten the screws, then put a drop on the end of the threaded portion and it wicks into the joint and locks it. Then there is Loctite 609, which is also green, and is used to increase the lock of non-threaded, press fit assemblies. And then there is Loctite 638, which is again green, but this one is a high strength for non-threaded, but usable to lock slip fit assemblies.

The one you would rarely use around firearms is Loctite 27x (272, 277, etc). Commonly known as "red." This is considered a permanent locker, and requires heat and "excessive" force to remove.

But with any Loctite, application of a bit of heat makes it easier to remove. For small screws, a trick is to touch the screw head with a soldering iron (simple pencil iron) for a few seconds.

 

[Infinity]

It's probably been said already but I like to use a little bit of my wife's clear nail polish on the edges of the torx head once tight. I've never had one work loose. Cheers,
Adam

 

[Irokcrawl]

From being in many hobbies where vibrations cause fasteners to loosen the CORRECT type of thread locker or compound has always worked for me. As Pinecone mentioned the colors are useless, use the numbers or make sure to double check what the bottle/tube says. I know it gets expensive if you have to buy 10 different types but it generally last for a long time and you will only need one or two for anything firearm related. I know my American Rifle Company rings said to put a drop of motor oil on the screw which did not make any sense to me, they were cleaned along with everything else and 222 loctite were placed on all screws. This is the same way I have done every other optic (except once where I honestly forgot to even tq the screws down on a cheap optic on an AR15) and have never had an issue.

 

[damoncali]

From being in many hobbies where vibrations cause fasteners to loosen the CORRECT type of thread locker or compound has always worked for me. As Pinecone mentioned the colors are useless, use the numbers or make sure to double check what the bottle/tube says. I know it gets expensive if you have to buy 10 different types but it generally last for a long time and you will only need one or two for anything firearm related. I know my American Rifle Company rings said to put a drop of motor oil on the screw which did not make any sense to me, they were cleaned along with everything else and 222 loctite were placed on all screws. This is the same way I have done every other optic (except once where I honestly forgot to even tq the screws down on a cheap optic on an AR15) and have never had an issue.

The oil on the screws makes them clamp tighter at the same torque. It's sound engineering practice, counterintuitive as it is.

 

[Irokcrawl]

The oil on the screws makes them clamp tighter at the same torque. It's sound engineering practice, counterintuitive as it is.

Good to know and it does makes sense. I'll trust the 222 loctite though. It's never failed me on this type of stuff and is easy to take off when needed. I will say I love the American rifle company m10 rings. Very nice finish and stupid easy for a perfect and quick install.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[Pinecone]

The oil on the screws makes them clamp tighter at the same torque. It's sound engineering practice, counterintuitive as it is.

Or you can just torque them more.

Actually, if someone supplies a torque value, the standard is clean dry threads and oiled can lead to over tightening the fastener, even at the "correct" torque. But they can give a lubed torque value. Torque is not torque when it comes to fasteners.

If you want to tighten the absolutely properly, you need to tighten based on fastener stretch. Torque is a secondary measurement.

 

[FailureToStart]

Fascinating.
Better alert the aerospace industry, sounds like aluminum is a problem waiting to happen.

re: aluminum wheels bending from material "flowing", bullshit.

Aluminum does not flow unless you heat it to its melting point, period.

Where did you study metallurgy?

As for galvanic action causing a nobler metal to sacrifice itself when in contact with another metal, yes, that can happen if a joint is not properly prepped.
Aluminum that has been hard anodized in contact with steel fasteners is not one of those scenarios where galvanic corrosion occurs, much less if a thread dressing like Loctite is used.

Good luck running heavy steel mounts; I'll trust my optics to the same material your average F-22 Raptor fighter jet is made out of, aluminum.

Joe

Cool beans Joe, and way to be a prick about it.

So F-22s are made out of the same shit as the soda can in front of me? Sweet. Except no, they aren't. Similar maybe, but absolutely not the same.

Actually there are probably literally thousands of blends that fall under the name "Aluminum" and not all are created equal. Here is a link, you should read up on it: Aluminium alloy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - pay extra close attention to this section:

Because of its high conductivity and relatively low price compared with copper in the 1960s, aluminium was introduced at that time for household electrical wiring in North America, even though many fixtures had not been designed to accept aluminium wire. But the new use brought some problems:

The greater coefficient of thermal expansion of aluminium causes the wire to expand and contract relative to the dissimilar metal screw connection, eventually loosening the connection.

Pure aluminium has a tendency to "creep" under steady sustained pressure (to a greater degree as the temperature rises), again loosening the connection.

Galvanic corrosion from the dissimilar metals increases the electrical resistance of the connection.

If you want additional reading, you can also stop by: Aluminum wire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As to where I studied metallurgy - I didn't. My father on the other hand is a retired mechanical engineer who holds plenty of patents for distribution switchgear. Not exactly a metallurgy god, but if he didn't have answers, he knew someone who did.

In my youth I did cars and construction work - Hey dad, why the fuck do the lug nuts on my friends' cheep ass Aluminum wheels seem to become loose every week or two despite having loctite on the threads? Why are those same wheels out of round after those cars have sat in the garage over the winter? He had plenty of plausible answers, but really - what the fuck would he know about it?

I take it all back, I'm a liar. Not once, let alone dozens of times, was I witness to lug nuts becoming loose despite the use of thread locking compounds when I typically used an anti-seize compound. I never saw any of those vehicles turn up with out of round wheels after sitting stagnant in a garage for the winter. I've also never worked on a single house where electrical problems were caused by loose or non-existant connections between the devices and the original Aluminum wiring. And I've never, EVER seen the threads from the head of a Camaro or Corvette LT1 come out still attached to the spark plug.

Juuuust kidding. Its all real, and it all happened.


Either that, or: Hey OP, your problems are all in your head dude. I don't think they have meds for it either. Sorry bout your luck.

ALSO - and I hope you're seated: The Stainless Steel that they make surgical tools out probably isn't the same Stainless Steel that they make your washing machine innards out of, and it certainly isn't the same Stainless Steel that they make (or used to make) the exhaust pipes of most production cars out of. SHOCKING!

 

[scudzuki]

Cool beans Joe, and way to be a prick about it.

So F-22s are made out of the same shit as the soda can in front of me? Sweet. Except no, they aren't. Similar maybe, but absolutely not the same.

Actually there are probably literally thousands of blends that fall under the name "Aluminum" and not all are created equal. Here is a link, you should read up on it: Aluminium alloy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - pay extra close attention to this section:



If you want additional reading, you can also stop by: Aluminum wire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As to where I studied metallurgy - I didn't. My father on the other hand is a retired mechanical engineer who holds plenty of patents for distribution switchgear. Not exactly a metallurgy god, but if he didn't have answers, he knew someone who did.

In my youth I did cars and construction work - Hey dad, why the fuck do the lug nuts on my friends' cheep ass Aluminum wheels seem to become loose every week or two despite having loctite on the threads? Why are those same wheels out of round after those cars have sat in the garage over the winter? He had plenty of plausible answers, but really - what the fuck would he know about it?

I take it all back, I'm a liar. Not once, let alone dozens of times, was I witness to lug nuts becoming loose despite the use of thread locking compounds when I typically used an anti-seize compound. I never saw any of those vehicles turn up with out of round wheels after sitting stagnant in a garage for the winter. I've also never worked on a single house where electrical problems were caused by loose or non-existant connections between the devices and the original Aluminum wiring. And I've never, EVER seen the threads from the head of a Camaro or Corvette LT1 come out still attached to the spark plug.

Juuuust kidding. Its all real, and it all happened.


Either that, or: Hey OP, your problems are all in your head dude. I don't think they have meds for it either. Sorry bout your luck.

ALSO - and I hope you're seated: The Stainless Steel that they make surgical tools out probably isn't the same Stainless Steel that they make your washing machine innards out of, and it certainly isn't the same Stainless Steel that they make (or used to make) the exhaust pipes of most production cars out of. SHOCKING!

Really?
You mean there was a reason that all the different grades of aluminum, stainless, and carbon steel I have been machining for 35 years have different designations and characteristics?
Who knew?

Find me an aluminum ring made by a reputable manufacturer to day that is not made out of a high strength aluminum alloy, I challenge you.

As for the Wikipedia article, that refers to bare uncoated aluminum in a role as a conductor, not an airplane chassis, scope ring, car wheel, or other structural application.

Lug nuts loosened because wheel manufacturers didn't properly redesign the lug nut interface to compensate for aluminum's malleability.

If your friend's wheels bent, it was because they were not designed with thick enough features, and they deformed under an excessive load.

As to whether surgical instruments and exhaust systems are made out of the same grade of stainless, prove that they're not.
Hardness, tensile strength, corrosion resistance, and cost are the major determining factors when choosing an alloy.
All of the applications you've referred to sound like good candidates for 300 series stainless steels, and washing machine and exhaust may in fact both use the same alloy (304 my guess).

Anything else?

 

[damoncali]

Unlike soda cans, scope rings and jet fighters are not made out of pure aluminum. I think you'll find that 6061, 7075, etc, are just fine under load at normal rifle temperatures (although they don't have to melt to creep- a few hundred degrees will do it). That the OP is experiencing loosening after shooting, and not loosening over time just sitting indicates that there is movement between the screws and ring threads rather than creep. That could be for a number of reasons including poorly fit threads, not enough torque, or the lack of a thread locker. Given that I've never seen scope rings loosen like that and never used a thread locker, I'm guessing it's bad rings, screws (probably rings - screws are usually pretty good) or not enough clamping force. I would put a drop of oil on each screw, and tighten them as much as I could without breaking something. I have a feeling that would fix it.

 

[FailureToStart]

Really?
You mean there was a reason that all the different grades of aluminum, stainless, and carbon steel I have been machining for 35 years have different designations and characteristics?
Who knew?

Apparently you didn't. I mean alert the aerospace industry and all because there have been oodles of examples of poor design, poor choice of materials or both. AND you were a fucking cock about it in the process.

Find me an aluminum ring made by a reputable manufacturer to day that is not made out of a high strength aluminum alloy, I challenge you.

I'll pass. Not because it couldn't be done, but because I really don't give a fuck. I came into this thread to suggest possible causes for the OP's problems based upon my own experience, not to examine the ins and outs of every scope ring manufacturer on the face of the planet. Besides, reputable manufacturer is subjective.

As for the Wikipedia article, that refers to bare uncoated aluminum in a role as a conductor, not an airplane chassis, scope ring, car wheel, or other structural application.

So I assume that means what I said was true, regardless of relevance to the conversation.

Lug nuts loosened because wheel manufacturers didn't properly redesign the lug nut interface to compensate for aluminum's malleability.

ALERT THE AEROSPACE INDUSTRY, ALUMINUM IS MALLEABLE! Except when its not according to you, in which case the screws can't become loose due to improperly designed screw interfaces. Oh wait, they can, which is why I mentioned it.

If your friend's wheels bent, it was because they were not designed with thick enough features, and they deformed under an excessive load.

They were a direct knock-off - down to the millimeter - of a reputable wheel with an exceptional track record (literally) but made with inferior materials. I measured the ever loving shit out of them. While you have the Aerospace industry on the line regarding malleability, make sure they also understand how careful they need to be with their design and material selection.

As to whether surgical instruments and exhaust systems are made out of the same grade of stainless, prove that they're not.

Hardness, tensile strength, corrosion resistance, and cost are the major determining factors when choosing an alloy.
All of the applications you've referred to sound like good candidates for 300 series stainless steels, and washing machine and exhaust may in fact both use the same alloy (304 my guess).

If I have to answer the question of why exhaust pipes rust despite being stainless steel, I'll probably deck someone. Exhaust is typically 202, surgical instruments are typically a variant of 316, although there are a wide range of steels used depending on application. I have no clue what washing machines and dishwashers are made of but I'd guess you're probably right at 302 or 304.

Anything else?

Nope.

 

[scudzuki]

Apparently you didn't. I mean alert the aerospace industry and all because there have been oodles of examples of poor design, poor choice of materials or both. AND you were a fucking cock about it in the process.




I'll pass. Not because it couldn't be done, but because I really don't give a fuck. I came into this thread to suggest possible causes for the OP's problems based upon my own experience, not to examine the ins and outs of every scope ring manufacturer on the face of the planet. Besides, reputable manufacturer is subjective.




So I assume that means what I said was true, regardless of relevance to the conversation.




ALERT THE AEROSPACE INDUSTRY, ALUMINUM IS MALLEABLE! Except when its not according to you, in which case the screws can't become loose due to improperly designed screw interfaces. Oh wait, they can, which is why I mentioned it.




They were a direct knock-off - down to the millimeter - of a reputable wheel with an exceptional track record (literally) but made with inferior materials. I measured the ever loving shit out of them. While you have the Aerospace industry on the line regarding malleability, make sure they also understand how careful they need to be with their design and material selection.




If I have to answer the question of why exhaust pipes rust despite being stainless steel, I'll probably deck someone. Exhaust is typically 202, surgical instruments are typically a variant of 316, although there are a wide range of steels used depending on application. I have no clue what washing machines and dishwashers are made of but I'd guess you're probably right at 302 or 304.




Nope.

Face it, you made a ridiculous claim and I called you on it.
You don't have a fucking clue about what you're talking about.
If aluminum is an inappropriate material for a scope rings, what scope are you gonna mount in said rings, as they are all made of aluminum, too?

You lose.

Joe

 

[Graham]

Ideas on how to keep aluminum rings tight

I personally avoid Aluminum mounts in general. Not all Aluminum is created equal and I'm not saying the remainder of this post is remotely relevant to the discussion...

Hmmmm..........

Buy good rings. Torque them properly. That's how you keep them tight. There should be no need for Loctite on cap screws.

 

[FailureToStart]

Face it, you made a ridiculous claim and I called you on it.
You don't have a fucking clue about what you're talking about.
If aluminum is an inappropriate material for a scope rings, what scope are you gonna mount in said rings, as they are all made of aluminum, too?

You lose.

Joe

Go with that.

I have never once suggested that aluminum was an inappropriate material for anything. My vehicle has an aluminum engine block and head with ~180k miles, the broom handle next to me is aluminum, the can in front of me is aluminum... hell the chassis of the computer I'm using to type this is aluminum. Different grades, different designs - all working as intended.

What isn't working as intended is the OP's rings, for whatever reason.

Aside from suggesting blue Loctite, you've pretty much spent your time in this thread being a total cunt to me for sharing my own real world experiences as possible things to look out for. You being a machinist for longer than I've been alive doesn't undo things that I've seen with my own eyes, nor does it change the fact that I've had similar issues with aluminum BO and LaRue rings. I don't expect anyone on this forum to consider LaRue a "reputable" manufacturer, but I believe BO has a pretty good record.

I'm not going to dilute this dude's thread with any more bullshit.

 

[scudzuki]

Go with that.

I have never once suggested that aluminum was an inappropriate material for anything. My vehicle has an aluminum engine block and head with ~180k miles, the broom handle next to me is aluminum, the can in front of me is aluminum... hell the chassis of the computer I'm using to type this is aluminum. Different grades, different designs - all working as intended.

What isn't working as intended is the OP's rings, for whatever reason.

Aside from suggesting blue Loctite, you've pretty much spent your time in this thread being a total cunt to me for sharing my own real world experiences as possible things to look out for. You being a machinist for longer than I've been alive doesn't undo things that I've seen with my own eyes, nor does it change the fact that I've had similar issues with aluminum BO and LaRue rings. I don't expect anyone on this forum to consider LaRue a "reputable" manufacturer, but I believe BO has a pretty good record.

I'm not going to dilute this dude's thread with any more bullshit.

What you said was

"I personally avoid Aluminum mounts in general. Not all Aluminum is created equal and I'm not saying the remainder of this post is remotely relevant to the discussion."

So I will ask again you fucking douchenozzle, do you only buy scopes with steel bodies?

Cause according to your line of reasoning, a highly respected manufacturer may sometimes substitute a grade of aluminum similar to spun river mud (like that in the knockoff wheels aluminum wheels you encountered as a youth) despite decades of offering quality products made from spec materials, so steel mounts are the only safe solution.

It was near about the most absurd thing I've read on this board, and I reacted in kind. Disseminating that kind of information as if you have a fucking clue about what you are talking to is a disservice to those unfortunate souls that might believe you.

You can believe anything you like, and I don't give a rat's ass, but you're not going to get away with spouting that kind of bullshit on any forum that I can participate in.

Joe

 

[Jon A]

Buy good rings. Torque them properly. That's how you keep them tight. There should be no need for Loctite on cap screws.

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. Well designed, high quality rings will not need loctite, rosin, Gorrilla glue, Elmer's, RTV, duct tape or any other such goop in order to function properly.

Yes, this includes aluminum rings. Virtually all of the "issues" brought up on the 'net about aluminum are 3rd-hand rumor Engineering mis-applying issues from one application to another in which they do not apply (a little information is a dangerous thing)--in short bunk when speaking about well designed rings using quality materials.

 

[traveler]

Good to know and it does makes sense. I'll trust the 222 loctite though. It's never failed me on this type of stuff and is easy to take off when needed. I will say I love the American rifle company m10 rings. Very nice finish and stupid easy for a perfect and quick install.

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Hey Irokcrawl .... Good to know you like your ARC M10 rings. Do you have them torqued as per the manufacturer torque specs with the 222 or torqued to something else?

 

[Irokcrawl]

Hey Irokcrawl .... Good to know you like your ARC M10 rings. Do you have them torqued as per the manufacturer torque specs with the 222 or torqued to something else?

They are not tqed completely to spec. My small tq wrench was at my other house and when the rings came in they went right to the ups man's hands to my office to being mounted! Lol. I'm guessing they are pretty close though. They have not moved any and I checked the screws tonight and they were still good and tight. The loctite works and I don't have to worry about it for the most part. If it can't be safety wired then it gets loctite!

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