- Nov 3, 2010
- 9,701
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So why all the bad tastes from people in so many threads about people using the wrong equipment, but not getting a 0 or dropped? Is it only cheating if the MD/RO doesn’t t like the shooter, or some other circumstance
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If PRS had a "Walleye fishing tournament cheating scandal" what would it be?
- Thread starter S3th
- Start date
No idea what all these "bad tastes" you are talking about but bottom line is breaking the rules is cheating. Not going to play your word semantics.
What matches you shoot?
- Nov 3, 2010
- 9,701
- 20,396
- Nov 3, 2010
- 9,701
- 20,396
But it always boils down to “what do you shoot” when the topic is something that has been talked about before.
No I asked for a reference to see if they have rules. If they do then you should know what cheating is. If not then there is the problem.
- Nov 3, 2010
- 9,701
- 20,396
Haven’t shot any comps in a long time. Have shot in All Army a few years, shot GSSF for many years, shot every long range match I could that Tom Rayner held when I live in Ohio, shot some CMP postal air rifle matches, signed up for a 22 match here at The Range Complex but it was canceled. Trying to find time to get into the Pigg River night shoot if it isn’t full already and they accept me. Would love to make it to Frontline some day and shoot something just to get out. Mostly I enjoy shooting 22 by myself on my time and terms out behind my house.
I understand what rules are. I understand what the good ol boy system is as well. I understand that sometimes these two don’t go together. I’m not a sponsored shooter, and don’t spend my every waking moment shooting so that means I’m not entitled to an opinion, I’m sorry I stepped into your world
There was a thread a year back, maybe a little longer where a they had a standing shot stage and a competitor took it to the extreme and basically crouched down, while still on 2 feet and shot the stage. Technically it was "standing" since the shooter was still on 2 feet, but was not really in the spirit of the competition on the way he did it. I think the MD at the time let it go. There is a long as thread about it. I found it funny AF since I don't give a shit about PRS matches for several reasons.
There should be no good ole boy system and rules are there for everyone. If someone is bending rules for people because of who they are then they are wrong and if people keep giving them money to screw them over then that is on them. Breaking rules is cheating. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter who you are.
And that is not "my world" so don't make assumptions. You should go and shoot some .22 matches. There was actually one tomorrow at Frontline. Also another at Cee's Shooting Club in Goldsboro run by Hayes Gunworks. Some fun matches in Maysville too for centerfire run by Alliance Outdoors. Lots in the area if you wanted to shoot.
If you hear me banging on a garbage can, it means the wind changed direction.
I’ve never been to a match that treated the shooting line like a golf tee box. Most fuckers are chatting, discussing the stage, bitching about the pace of the squad in front, bitching about the heat/cold/rain/sun/etc, calling corrections, or just generally being social humans. Weird, right? There can be enough chatter that electronic ear pro can be annoying. Then, there’s the top tier shooters calling out “come up a full plate” or “your 2 mils right” to new shooters just getting started. Or, the guy behind you saying “Hey, whoa up. You’ve got a double feed.” (I’ll grant that coaching a shooter on the clock is poor form in a national level event.) But, I’ve never heard anyone say “Shhh, talking is cheating.” on the line. I’m pretty sure any Karen to utter such a phrase would be quickly laughed off the range. Like someone else said above; “lighten up, Francis.”
I won't shoot in any sport that doesn't have a mature ruleset and a required training standard for range officials.
It's not a self defeating proposition. It's a standard that I use to ensure I get value out of my time and money.
As someone who primarily competes in and often RO's in a sport without one standard ruleset, yeah, it sucks.
There's nothing more frustrating than the last major I RO'd. I read the reasonably thorough rule book front to back several times in preparation. Ran my stage, used only official range commands, made all my calls consistently across all shooters from good friends to top pros and newbs. Any question I couldn't immediately answer was clarified by a rule book search. Anything still murky and the MD was called.
Then I watch videos from other stages just to find out I'm the only RO following the rules. They all RO at their local clubs with their made up rules and they've been doing it so long they think they know all there is to know. Everything from made up range commands to illegal starting positions, coaching, even some "well we let one guy do it so now we have to let everyone get away with it" bullshit. For all I know everyone shot a different stage than his fellow shooter depending on what rules the RO was in the mood to follow that day. Makes it very hard to take things seriously.
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I agree with most of what you said, but its something you need to experience to understand.
PRS would benefit from a RO training program. Its actually something PRS should be doing as a service for the money they generate, not to just K&M look more prettier.
RO's are volunteers, There is a fine line between having a good RO and you self spotting. Last 2 day match the temps hit over 110. 17 of the 20's RO's didnt show up. Its hard enough getting people to even show up, much less require them be trained. Who is going to pay for that? The PRS? L O fucking L.
With all that being said, 99% of expereinces are great. People make mistakes, big deal. The biggest issue is shooters letting National Level Pros bully newer or inexpereinced RO's for points. The guys with name recongition will aruge points and generally get it, becuase its assumed they know better. The problem is, No one wants to be that guy so the rest of the squad stays quiet. Very few people will speak up and say something for risk of getting alienated from the community. Shooters holding other shooters accountable is WAY more effective and efficent than expecting some inexperienced RO to do it. If you let this happen or see cheating and dont say anything, you are just as guilty as the cheater IMO. Honor code rules should apply.
PRS would benefit from a RO training program. Its actually something PRS should be doing as a service for the money they generate, not to just K&M look more prettier.
RO's are volunteers, There is a fine line between having a good RO and you self spotting. Last 2 day match the temps hit over 110. 17 of the 20's RO's didnt show up. Its hard enough getting people to even show up, much less require them be trained. Who is going to pay for that? The PRS? L O fucking L.
With all that being said, 99% of expereinces are great. People make mistakes, big deal. The biggest issue is shooters letting National Level Pros bully newer or inexpereinced RO's for points. The guys with name recongition will aruge points and generally get it, becuase its assumed they know better. The problem is, No one wants to be that guy so the rest of the squad stays quiet. Very few people will speak up and say something for risk of getting alienated from the community. Shooters holding other shooters accountable is WAY more effective and efficent than expecting some inexperienced RO to do it. If you let this happen or see cheating and dont say anything, you are just as guilty as the cheater IMO. Honor code rules should apply.
you're not shooting many comps then are you?
I've watched international trap and skeet. There's even subjectivity there
M
You still haven't grasped anything I've said. All shooting sports have some level of subjectivity in terms of officiating. No shit, captain obvious. That happens when humans are involved.
I'm talking about rule books that are full of vague or subjective criteria. Like IDPA. I won't shoot that shit unless there is absolutely nothing else to do and I'm bored out of my fucking skull. And even then I have to check myself when listening to the stupid fudds that run those comps.
I also can't take seriously any shooting sport where officials A) aren't competitors who take the sport seriously and B) aren't trained to a high standard. That's IDPA, and apparently (at least on the training side) 2 or 3 gun matches
Currently USPSA is the only shooting sport that I can take seriously because it has a well developed set of rules (as imperfect as they may be), the sport take very seriously the training and certification of match officials, AND the match officials take their duties seriously. I should know I am one.
NRA rifle comps are similar in those regards to USPSA except those sports are virtually dead around me.
Over the last 20 years I've played seriously or semi seriously in NRA Highpower Rifle, NSCA sporting clays, IDPA, and USPSA. Even did a PRS club series match to see if I'd be interested.
Every MD I have shot for so far, is a stand up guy or gal and does not play fuck fuck games. Maybe we are lucky in the PNW, but they all run a fair and balanced course of fire. Some of the top shooters have been caught gaming or going outside of intent of stage, and they were deducted points. Most are shooters themselves so they know whats fair game and whats against the rules.
Its impossible to codify everything and honestly, who wants to shoot a sport with more rules than the IRS?
I used to shoot NSCA Sporting Clays and don't remember overly restrictive rules. One of the nice thing about the more expensive sports is they are a smaller community and people behave better then a bunch of random poors blasting PSA and springfield XD's at local match. Being an asshole or cheating is a good way to loose your shooting buddies and lets be honest, shooting with friends is like 75% of the fun of it.
Its impossible to codify everything and honestly, who wants to shoot a sport with more rules than the IRS?
I used to shoot NSCA Sporting Clays and don't remember overly restrictive rules. One of the nice thing about the more expensive sports is they are a smaller community and people behave better then a bunch of random poors blasting PSA and springfield XD's at local match. Being an asshole or cheating is a good way to loose your shooting buddies and lets be honest, shooting with friends is like 75% of the fun of it.
Must be rough being perfect in an imperfect world
Giving people the benefit of the doubt and assuming the best is a much better way to live, but you do you
M
Seen it happen back in mid 2000s. Uncapped though. Has happened to elevation too. Not cool.
Or the whole super squad concept. Meanwhile the also rans in the next squad are actually doing all the work for themselves.
Not only is that a Match DQ and probably a suspension for a year, but it would be a great way to get 7 shades of shit knocked out of you.
Ironically, I saw a famous National shooter (everyone here knows of him) zero a stage then blame someone (no one in perticular) in squad of changing his dope. Was pretty funny and he didn't come back to the second day of the match. No one is dumb enough to do that shit.
Don't doubt it and that's sad that someone feels the need for points that bad.
So many babies in the forum who post on here. Majority do not shoot any of these matches and just keyboard warrior. Just gaslight each other more.
Shotgun sports have to be the shooting sports with most intensity- glaring safety violations aside. Trappers are trained and certified by the NSCA/NSSA or ATA. Trappers are paid decent money at the tourneys in our area (my son was getting $30 per hr).
At the sporting clays nationals last year, there was a stage with a big looping chondel that dropped into a big pile of chips about 30 yards from the station. The trapper was calling dead birds if the shooter blew chips out of that pile when the bird landed.
Was at another tournament when my son smashed a fast crosser that the trapper called lost. There were about 4 squads piled up on this stage and every on there called it dead. He maintained lost.
And, generally speaking, if a entrant calls out “chip” and is backed up by at least one other entrant, the trapper will call it dead if he didn’t see it.
Why do I bring this up? Because even at the highest levels of shooting competition, where ROs are trained and paid; there are bad calls, questionable application of the rules, and an opportunity for “team scoring.”
You can either get past it and shoot your best, or sit at home on the couch eating Cheetos.
At the sporting clays nationals last year, there was a stage with a big looping chondel that dropped into a big pile of chips about 30 yards from the station. The trapper was calling dead birds if the shooter blew chips out of that pile when the bird landed.
Was at another tournament when my son smashed a fast crosser that the trapper called lost. There were about 4 squads piled up on this stage and every on there called it dead. He maintained lost.
And, generally speaking, if a entrant calls out “chip” and is backed up by at least one other entrant, the trapper will call it dead if he didn’t see it.
Why do I bring this up? Because even at the highest levels of shooting competition, where ROs are trained and paid; there are bad calls, questionable application of the rules, and an opportunity for “team scoring.”
You can either get past it and shoot your best, or sit at home on the couch eating Cheetos.
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quoting this, just cause it’s funny/ironic
USPSA is quickly becoming the dumpster fire of competition shooting, mainly due to their board and president
one of us certainly seems to be
I've got a suggestion: be an RO and put your rear end where your mouth is. Be the perfect RO that you seem to require out of the volunteers that are helping out out of the goodness of their hearts.
I've seen some so-so ROs at matches, but they're out there actually doing rather than running their yaps that 'things aren't perfect so I'm not shooting.'
The short short version: You can remain a miserable see you next Tues or you can help change things. Pick one
M
To be fair to all the competitors, sometimes you have to take that position.
A couple years ago, as a co-MD for a big NRL match, I thought we were squared away with well seasoned and experienced shooters as ROs, we even took them individually and briefed them at the stage location they were responsible for. One stage in particular, we had an area marked, actually staked with 2x4s in a square that required the shooter to stay within with all their equipment while engaging the targets. The shooter could use any equipment they could carry into the marked area, and utilize as they saw fit. As I was making my rounds, after about three squads had already passed through that particular stage, I find out that the RO is allowing shooters to set up their equipment in that marked area prior to the start of the clock. That was not the intention of how the stage was designed, it was clearly briefed to the RO that shooters had to set up and/or adjust their equipment on the clock. Unfortunately, because several squads were allowed to set up their equipment prior to the start of the clock, we had to allow it for the remainder of the match.
The only other option was to not score that stage, which can cause drama in itself.
Seems like a real ambassador of the sport. I mean, they could even start a YouTube channel focused on long range.
I see where you're coming from in that instance. Although I have seen stages thrown out for that stuff.
When I MD'd I had RO's live on a stage start to finish and if there was any grey area in the WSB or anything specific I wanted done I made sure the RO was aware.
The case in question in my post above wasn't a WSB thing though, it was an action specifically prohibited in the rule book. Half the people at the match would've probably liked to have been able to do it but only one squad asked the RO if they could. Maybe they knew it wasn't allowed and they were betting the RO didn't. Maybe it was just a mistake on everyone's part, either way the camel got it's nose under the tent and gave a significant advantage to every squad after while all the earlier suckers were stuck following the rules. 5 minutes of that RO's time spent in the rule book would've prevented it but trying to be professional is looked down upon in "outlaw" sports.
Nobody at the grassroots level gives a shit about the board. Whatever they're doing doesn't change the fact that the competition rules and range officer training are the best in the business.
Sometimes you have to consider the logistics of the volunteer ROs. I wish I could train ROs more extensively. The reality is I am usually jumping through hoops 24 hours before the match to setup the stages and do the match book. Then on game day 13 of the 18 volunteers show and 5 bail.
I know there’s established ranges where there’s a group of the “typical” ROs. Which is very important for 2-day pro matches. The stakes are obvious higher. However, right now we run 1-day matches but really try to focus on team matches. Nevertheless, I will get about 30min to give the ROs the once over then I check in with them every 30min or so doing my rounds.
This is where the shooters come into play. I ask for their help spotting and giving the ROs a hand. I’m proud to say our community is very good at this and while I’ve had some hiccups, the shooters are by in large quality humans who do the right thing.
I just wanted to comment as a small venue MD. Going forward I would love to setup training for ROs and it’s on my calendar as I think that would just take the responsibility off trusting the competitors.
Anyways the worst BS cheating I saw at a match was the typical Omaha calls from the pro squad. I heard this phrase being said oddly and my buddy who’s been doing this since PRS begin called it. He said that’s the call for come left. No shit I heard this the rest of the match. Probably wasn’t everyone in the squad but that’s lame.
Next BS I saw was the super squad making an RO cry trying to get a reshoot.. It was the typical super squad of west coast guys. You know their names.. the young female RO was definitely shaken.
Something about the super squads and BS seem to follow. Weird.
I know there’s established ranges where there’s a group of the “typical” ROs. Which is very important for 2-day pro matches. The stakes are obvious higher. However, right now we run 1-day matches but really try to focus on team matches. Nevertheless, I will get about 30min to give the ROs the once over then I check in with them every 30min or so doing my rounds.
This is where the shooters come into play. I ask for their help spotting and giving the ROs a hand. I’m proud to say our community is very good at this and while I’ve had some hiccups, the shooters are by in large quality humans who do the right thing.
I just wanted to comment as a small venue MD. Going forward I would love to setup training for ROs and it’s on my calendar as I think that would just take the responsibility off trusting the competitors.
Anyways the worst BS cheating I saw at a match was the typical Omaha calls from the pro squad. I heard this phrase being said oddly and my buddy who’s been doing this since PRS begin called it. He said that’s the call for come left. No shit I heard this the rest of the match. Probably wasn’t everyone in the squad but that’s lame.
Next BS I saw was the super squad making an RO cry trying to get a reshoot.. It was the typical super squad of west coast guys. You know their names.. the young female RO was definitely shaken.
Something about the super squads and BS seem to follow. Weird.
Saw that happen at a match back in April in Idaho. Guy that spun the windage told the shooter before he went to shoot, but the shooter didn’t have his windage turret set to zero and he didn’t remember where it went.
Didn’t happen, but there were other things going on and it is difficult to translate context
Pretty much. That’s why the guy told him before. I think the spinner got a zero on the stage and the shooter got to rezero and shoot again
Not really the same thing as being discussed. Dick move on friends part not knowing how to fix it though.
I grew up trapping local, regional and National events.
There was no training program.
When Trapping, if multiple other people call a dead bird when I don't see it, Its a dead bird. No one person is perfect and all of these sports rely on people to police each other and act with honor and dignity.
You must be a perfect RO since you insist on perfection from others
Congratulations!
M
Does an RO in USPSA or whatever have to call and spot impacts and misses for each shot in addtion to watching shooter to make sure they are following the stage and safety rules??
No. But if you are inferring they have fewer irons in the fire than a precision rifle match RO, that is incorrect.
I personally know 3 people on this thread that actually shoot matches... And I think I can agree with them.
And the end of the day... 99% of matches are run without drama. As someone who has RO'd 2 day national matches... The rules are pretty straightforward and clear.
And the end of the day... 99% of matches are run without drama. As someone who has RO'd 2 day national matches... The rules are pretty straightforward and clear.
Then watch your own bobber and shut the fuck up about the PRS. You blather on and on and on about USPSA. We get it, you like USPSA. No one cares and your opinions of the PRS are not relevant.
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As someone who's shot and RO'd matches, there is certainly always a few trying to look for "loopholes" and ways to game the system for an advantage.
Some people are just hyper-competitive, and want to "outsmart" the system to gain an advantage. Thankfully I've never seen anyone attempt to do anything as blatant as that walleye fishing scandal. Mostly just people trying to flirt with the rules and boundaries rather than blatantly trying to break them.
For the most part, our sport is full of pretty decent to good people. Most of us show up to matches to have a good time and meet good like-minded people, and if we score well, that's a great bonus on top of a fun weekend.
Some people are just hyper-competitive, and want to "outsmart" the system to gain an advantage. Thankfully I've never seen anyone attempt to do anything as blatant as that walleye fishing scandal. Mostly just people trying to flirt with the rules and boundaries rather than blatantly trying to break them.
For the most part, our sport is full of pretty decent to good people. Most of us show up to matches to have a good time and meet good like-minded people, and if we score well, that's a great bonus on top of a fun weekend.
I tried your game. It sucks. Standing around all fucking day to shoot 60 rounds?
LOL suck a cock.
Fucking cheesedicks making up shit as they go.
To be fair... For USPSA, you also stand around all day to shoot a total of less than 5 minutes.
To add, a 2 day PRS match is 200+ rounds (not 60), 20+ stages. And on day 2, you're usually out by noon. So, technically, you're shooting 30+ minutes for 2 day matches. And you're not standing around... You're reading wind, setting up dope, and figuring out strategy to shoot the stage.
Local matches, shoot at 0700, done by 1100-1200. 100+ rounds. Most local (and national) PRS matches afford zero downtime and are out before the wives/kids demand you finish grocery shopping when you're done.
Outside of just moving jaws AFTER the match, not much downtime to shoot the shit...
Ahh the old tough guy act from the Blow Hard of The Hide.
Thank you for proving my point. Once again your post contributed nothing to this forum.
Good day sir
All shooting games are the same in one regard. Lots of standing around and not much trigger time. 8 stage local PRS match. 2 minute par time. Start at 8. Done around 3. 7 hrs on the range for 16 minutes of shooting.
5k run and gun. 7 stages. 3 minute par time. Unlimited round count per stage. Takes about 4 hrs b/c of back ups at the stage starts.
Sporting clays. 10-13 stages. Generally 100 rounds total. About a 3 hrs if there aren’t too many Bach ups. Local events can be all over the place on pace. European rotation is better in this regard.
But, it’s not just shooting sports. Football ==> 8 sec per play. 40 sec play clock. So 40 of every 48 seconds is just standing around. That’s 10 minutes of action in a 1 hr game, spread over 3-4 hrs.
5k run and gun. 7 stages. 3 minute par time. Unlimited round count per stage. Takes about 4 hrs b/c of back ups at the stage starts.
Sporting clays. 10-13 stages. Generally 100 rounds total. About a 3 hrs if there aren’t too many Bach ups. Local events can be all over the place on pace. European rotation is better in this regard.
But, it’s not just shooting sports. Football ==> 8 sec per play. 40 sec play clock. So 40 of every 48 seconds is just standing around. That’s 10 minutes of action in a 1 hr game, spread over 3-4 hrs.
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