Which piece of equipment is more important?

[JR1200W3]

Nope, incorrect.

"Reliable" chronographs have been around since the 70s.

Perhaps they were not convenient but they were certainly reliable.

BTW, you are not the only one to make this error. I've heard two or more, highly respected, people say the same thing.

Buford, good to hear from you. You are absolutely correct. Reliable chrono's did exist but they weren't mobile or particularly affordable so in practice people that shot in austere conditions did without. Hence Accuracy 1st codifying the act of truing for people that didn't have backpack capable Oehler 35's and System 88's in their charge bags. Most people here won't know the resources you had available to you back then.

BTW, I remember you showing a slow mo video of a mic indicated on the end of a barrel during firing to demonstrate the bullet exiting before the barrel started to move. Have you seen the recent video from AB showing the barrel moving before the bullet exits? What do you make of that? I used to use your demonstration I saw in VA Beach back in 2016 as an example but this recent video contradicts it.

 

[giumau1]

For me the Garmin specifically was a real game changer. Not having the chance to shoot more than 2k rounds a year including competitions, it gave me the intimacy with the behaviour of my gun+ammo that I was not able to achieve before. The Kestrel is all you need on top of that.

 

[ECK]

When I first went down the rabbit hole of rifle shooting a Kestrel was the first thing I got. I use it for all my rifles from rimfire to centerfires. Very useful piece of kit. And unlike a chrono, borrowing or sharing a Kestrel with somebody else is awkward to say the least. I borrowed a friend’s chrono for a few years before I got my own.

I realize that Garmins are super useful (and I own one now). But unless you’re planning on having it strapped to your rifle for every shot you take I think you’ll mainly use it for load work up and a starting point for the profile you build in your kestrel.

Have you considered a MagnetoSpeed? You can pick them up for a ridiculous amount these days.

 

[Buford Boone]

BTW, I remember you showing a slow mo video of a mic indicated on the end of a barrel during firing to demonstrate the bullet exiting before the barrel started to move. Have you seen the recent video from AB showing the barrel moving before the bullet exits? What do you make of that? I used to use your demonstration I saw in VA Beach back in 2016 as an example but this recent video contradicts it.

I've seen a few from AB. I got a call from Bryan to let me know his video showed barrel movement.

I reminded him that mine did, too. Only the movement is straight to the rear. The dial indicator was to measure vertical, which was not observable prior to bullet exit (I've only ever heard "harmonics" blamed for vertical, never horizontal). He said his didn't show any vertical, either.

The AB videos I've seen support my, earlier, videos as opposed to contradicting them.

If AB has one out that shows vertical movement, I've not seen it. I sure want to, though. I did the first video series to prove what I'd been teaching and only proved I was wrong. Perhaps new video will prove I'm wrong, again (would that mean I was right in the first place?)

I agree that chronographs have only become convenient in recent years, and am happy for it. I doubt I'll ever use skyscreens and long spacings again.

And, I'll also say that "truing" is a fantastic, and brilliant, adaptation to not having instruments to actually measure inputs. The bullet is the truth.

I hope that truing will continue to be taught, even though convenient chronographs are available. Truing - I wish I had thought of it, but I'm not that smart!

 

[JR1200W3]

I've seen a few from AB. I got a call from Bryan to let me know his video showed barrel movement.

I reminded him that mine did, too. Only the movement is straight to the rear. The dial indicator was to measure vertical, which was not observable prior to bullet exit (I've only ever heard "harmonics" blamed for vertical, never horizontal). He said his didn't show any vertical, either.

The AB videos I've seen support my, earlier, videos as opposed to contradicting them.

If AB has one out that shows vertical movement, I've not seen it. I sure want to, though. I did the first video series to prove what I'd been teaching and only proved I was wrong. Perhaps new video will prove I'm wrong, again (would that mean I was right in the first place?)

I agree that chronographs have only become convenient in recent years, and am happy for it. I doubt I'll ever use skyscreens and long spacings again.

And, I'll also say that "truing" is a fantastic, and brilliant, adaptation to not having instruments to actually measure inputs. The bullet is the truth.

I hope that truing will continue to be taught, even though convenient chronographs are available. Truing - I wish I had thought of it, but I'm not that smart!

Ya, I assumed the rifle/ barrel moving rearward wouldn't be able to move without some vertical as well but I could be wrong. The video I saw didn't have a mic in it so I just assumed.

That's one of my little petty claims to fames, lol. When I was talking to Bryan, getting his BCs for the bullets I was shooting, I ran the idea of basing my ballistic computer off BCs and changing the MV to get my data to line up and he thought it was sound. A year later it's called "trueing" as part of the A 1st instruction. I probably didn't think of it first, it was more likely a common realization by quite few people borne by the necessity of not having access to quality chrono's.

People got a lot of shit done back in the day without chrono's. We're definitely better off for Magneto Speeds and Zeros, but if you want to go super analog and are open to field expedient methods they aren't strictly necessary.

 

[The4GunGuy]

I did my first ever PRS competition earlier this year* and had a lot of fun! Only problem is I was woefully unprepared - so much so, I didn't have any dope for my rifle. I'm aiming to fix that this year as I want to go to more competitions this year with a goal of getting a top 15 spot.

I'm going to stick with Hornady 4DOF for my ballistics calculator as there are so many opinions out there that it doesn't really seem like there's any difference between the apps.

My question for you folks is if I could get one, and only one of the following, which would be more useful?

A Kestrel 5700 non-elite or a Garmin/LabRadar chronograph?

I'm thinking the Kestrel as my assumption is that having better weather data will give a better dope vs muzzle velocity measurements.

Is this correct or am I off base?

Thanks!

I'm leaving my Kestrel for the GeoBallistics App. I get good weather from a local airport, and tweak the wind as I see fit. I can always ask someone what they're getting for wind speed, but remember, the wind where YOU are isn't the wind 1,000 yds away, or even 500 yds away. I've shot 4 matches with just the GB app and have seen no difference. I true my DOPE at 900 yds and go with it. Save yourself the money and get the Garmin. Just my 0.02.

 

[CybrSlydr]

So from what I'm gathering from this thread, it all depends on who you talk to. lol

I asked the guy I went to the competition with earlier this year and he said he'd get the chrono instead of the kestrel.

Don't you just love the internet?

 

[JR1200W3]

So from what I'm gathering from this thread, it all depends on who you talk to. lol

I asked the guy I went to the competition with earlier this year and he said he'd get the chrono instead of the kestrel.

Don't you just love the internet?

I think some of the difference in opinions you're getting is because the real answer is both. So people are just vacillating on either side of the right answer.

It's like the hypothetical "If you had to own just one gun, what would it be?". Why would I ever have to make that choice? The correct answer is, No. I'm never going to own just one gun.

 

[Oldloser]

As far as ES's under 25 to hit 1 moa targets"at all distances", that's just untrue as a statement of absolutism. Mathematically. Having an ES of 30 doesn't effect your ability to hit 2 moa PRS standard targets at 800.

Geometrically speaking, an ES of 25 is a spread of .15 mils at 800. Add in a wobble/recoil management of .1, and you now have an elevation budget of .05 mils on top or bottom of the 1 MOA plate. That is not a lot.

Statistically speaking, if 50% of your shots fall within the ES or 25 and the rest out, then you will miss that 1 MOA plate a lot more than if 90% fall within that ES of 25.

2 MOA plates are there as sighters. A 2 MOA plate next to a 1/2 MOA plate at 600 yards is a guessing game if you do not have rock solid ES.

 

[JR1200W3]

Geometrically speaking, an ES of 25 is a spread of .15 mils at 800. Add in a wobble/recoil management of .1, and you now have an elevation budget of .05 mils on top or bottom of the 1 MOA plate. That is not a lot.

Statistically speaking, if 50% of your shots fall within the ES or 25 and the rest out, then you will miss that 1 MOA plate a lot more than if 90% fall within that ES of 25.

2 MOA plates are there as sighters. A 2 MOA plate next to a 1/2 MOA plate at 600 yards is a guessing game if you do not have rock solid ES.

Nope. Still wrong.

Currently I'm shooting a 22GT at matches. 85.5 @ 3200 at 6000ft ASL. A 30fps difference in MV produces .1mrad difference at 800yds and 0.0mrad difference at 600yds. Not all cartridges have the same danger space so they don't all have the same vertical from ES. And when you split that 0.1 mrad to represent the top and bottom you're only adding .05 and .05 on the top and bottom of your mechanical group size.

And the way the "50% of your shots" thing works is all of your shots fall inside your ES(that's why it's called ES) and a large majority of your shots inside an even smaller average (your SD). So you're only worrying about a few outliers in the scope of the ES discussion.

Your 25 (or 30fps) ES will not produce the same vertical in mrad at all distances. That's why as a statement of absolutism, it's untrue. And it's not true at 600 or 800. If you want to "pork barrel" shooters ability, AJ, and some other junk into it you may come close....on a 1 moa or smaller target, but those are the minority at a match and not demonstrative of 70% of your available points in the table. 2 moa is PRS standard, a lot of matches are trending smaller, and MDs always like to throw in some FU smaller targets.

 

[stanley_white]

My first spotted miss is my Kestrel.

-Stan

 

[ma smith]

You guys are forgetting...you have to walk to 800 yards to measure that shit...and walk back...thats 1600yds round trip...ie a mile and 20-30 minutes of fucking around with a cold range...not always practical.

The alternative is shoot 5-10 shot group in 60-120 seconds with a chrono and get your ES, which you can do on a 100 or 300 yard range that might also be alot closer drive for some people, etc. If you shoot a range where you can't simply go cold for 30-minute intervals whenever you want, or if your 800 yd range is 2 hours away, etc...the chrono can save you HOURS of time...even tho its results can be replicated for free with a pencil/paper and a tape measure.

I've done it both ways, and I'm sure many other people here have done the same...

Arguments can be made for either, neither, or both...where you end up and what sequence of events gets you there...depends on alot of thing...like the value of your time, you access to ranges (throughout the week/work schedule, the weather windows, daylight hourse, driving distances from your home, etc). Its not the same tradeoffs for every person...

OP if you can't figure these tradeoffs out right away, thats fine. But honestly, its also not worth the brain damage. If you are going to worry about saving a couple hundred dollars, you're going to need to probably make other hard decisisions.

You can always start out with a $150 used v3 magneto speed, or a $200 weather-only kestrel, and run 4 dof on your phone, and get alot of the functionality and see for yourself what you think is worth upgrading.

 

[clefairy]

You guys are forgetting...you have to walk to 800 yards to measure that shit...and walk back...thats 1600yds round trip...ie a mile and 20-30 minutes of fucking around with a cold range...not always practical.

The alternative is shoot 5-10 shot group in 60-120 seconds with a chrono and get your ES, which you can do on a 100 or 300 yard range that might also be alot closer drive for some people, etc. If you shoot a range where you can't simply go cold for 30-minute intervals whenever you want, or if your 800 yd range is 2 hours away, etc...the chrono can save you HOURS of time...even tho its results can be replicated for free with a pencil/paper and a tape measure.

I've done it both ways, and I'm sure many other people here have done the same...

Arguments can be made for either, neither, or both...where you end up and what sequence of events gets you there...depends on alot of thing...like the value of your time, you access to ranges (throughout the week/work schedule, the weather windows, daylight hourse, driving distances from your home, etc). Its not the same tradeoffs for every person...

OP if you can't figure these tradeoffs out right away, thats fine. But honestly, its also not worth the brain damage. If you are going to worry about saving a couple hundred dollars, you're going to need to probably make other hard decisisions.

You can always start out with a $150 used v3 magneto speed, or a $200 weather-only kestrel, and run 4 dof on your phone, and get alot of the functionality and see for yourself what you think is worth upgrading.

Get your dope close for the 800 yard shot at a dirt clod. Shoot and measure the miss in your reticle. No need to walk, more time for hot Cheetos.

 

[Tokay444]

Geometrically speaking, an ES of 25 is a spread of .15 mils at 800. Add in a wobble/recoil management of .1, and you now have an elevation budget of .05 mils on top or bottom of the 1 MOA plate. That is not a lot.

Statistically speaking, if 50% of your shots fall within the ES or 25 and the rest out, then you will miss that 1 MOA plate a lot more than if 90% fall within that ES of 25.

2 MOA plates are there as sighters. A 2 MOA plate next to a 1/2 MOA plate at 600 yards is a guessing game if you do not have rock solid ES.

But you have no control over ES, so what can actually be done from a practical standpoint now that you know your ES?

 

[JR1200W3]

Get your dope close for the 800 yard shot at a dirt clod. Shoot and measure the miss in your reticle. No need to walk, more time for hot Cheetos.

But Hornady said you need to shoot 30rd sample sizes. And you're over here trying to guesstimate 2 dimensional splash on dirt clods at distance

 

[Rippey715]

Kestrel would be more beneficial.

If budget is tight, buy used. You'll have enough funds left over to buy a used magnetospeed sporter chrono as well. A quick glance on the forum here and I found a used 4DOF non-elite Kestrel for $375 and a used Sporter for $70.

Thanks for the heads up! Needed to replace my MS Sporter and found that post.

 

[Rippey715]

My .02, I’ve been competing for the last two years and still don’t have a kestrel. Windy app, fellow shooters, spotting, looking at wind flags, etc will get you very far. Chrono is a must have so you can input correct data into the kestrel and confirm your load development. Everyone at a match has a kestrel or chrono you could “borrow” to get data from. But it’s much easier to bum wind calls then chrono data.

Good luck

 

[CybrSlydr]

But I don't have a load I'm developing. I'm just shooting factory ammo, not reloading. So if I keep using the same factory ammo, then I can just chrono it once and just go with it, right?

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Equipment.

there are all kinds of things you will need if you are even moderately interested. Bags (Plural) all run a hundred, good bipods, levels, mini plates, electronics (getting married to your kestrel is not a good thing, ask me how I know, yes dear, I have your special battery just like you demanded.) Rangefinders, binoculars, tripods, a cart to push it all around it, good bags for the rifle(s) (Plural) plus a whole lot more.

Having shot in competitions for many years and even used to be competitive in my younger life, I have found the one piece of equipment that needs to be put first and foremost, The Most Important piece of the Puzzle.

Your Brain

Get your head straight, pay attention to what’s going on and what you have to do. Not as easy as it sounds. Practice what you have to do. Spending hours upon hours at a bench rest perfecting that perfect group won’t do you one bit of good. Practice, and literally practice the way you compete, That will go a long way to getting your head straight and ready for the next match.

 

[ma smith]

But I don't have a load I'm developing. I'm just shooting factory ammo, not reloading. So if I keep using the same factory ammo, then I can just chrono it once and just go with it, right?

You need Sd of ~10fps to have 1moa of vertical dispersion at 1,000. That leaves you 1 moa of "shooter error" on a 2moa plate, for wind-call mistakes or wobbly props, etc.

The point of a chrono is you can see if your box ammo is any good, if the next box is as good as the last box, if the weather or your shooting strings (heat soak) is messing with your data, etc.

This will keep you sane and let you focus on more important things. There's alot of value in knowing what to worry about and what NOT to worry about, when trying to be efficient with time.

The other comment worth noting, is you can usually change your SD--even with box ammo-- simply by switching loads just like with reloading. Maybe this means a new brand/box color or upgrading the bullet or whatever its not that hard to do.

If you are shooting from stacks of cases of a single lot of ammo, you can also benefit from knowing how it responds to hot/cold and to bore condition of your rifle, etc.

again you're not trying to learn this stuff to be a cool kid, it actually helps you forget about stuff that doesn't matter. this applies even to the work you are doing with the chrono...

Everying working as expected? good...now forget about it!

And move on to reading the wind/calls...
(now where's that kestrel?)

 

[OREGUN]

But I don't have a load I'm developing. I'm just shooting factory ammo, not reloading. So if I keep using the same factory ammo, then I can just chrono it once and just go with it, right?

Man, this thread went sideways. I shoot a lot of hand loads and factory ammo both and I have a kestrel AND the Hornady app on my phone. Honestly, I chronograph every lot of factory ammo once and use that as a starting speed to verify my ballistic solutions on zero day. If I was making a choice between the two, I’d get a chronograph first. A Magnetospeed is a great idea to start. They are dirt cheap and reliable enough. Hell, a few months ago, I would have given you one. I use the Hornady app on my phone for almost all my dope solutions and only get out a kestrel if I can’t read a wind speed over someone else’s shoulder. The app has a significantly better user interface than a kestrel. The ONLY useful info that you don’t get if you don’t have a kestrel is wind speed. Local weather from the internet will get you close enough on elevation, temp, humidity, etc. Long story short, get a magnetospeed for now and keep using your app for dope. Ask a squad mate what they are getting for wind speed or buy a cheap wind meter. With all the money you save, get some professional instruction and as much practice ammo as you can carry….literally. Like a truck’s worth.

 

[Rippey715]

So. Much. Practice ammo.

Also a DFAT! Dry fire practice in the living room off chairs and tables, back of the couch, little giant ladder, will seriously improve your scores quickly.

 

[jthor]

I want to say just suck it up and get both honestly. Both are so valuable for different reasons.

Garmin: Aside from just getting velocity data, being a testing tool and seeing how well reloads/factory ammo is shooting velocity wise it can be a great tool for trouble shooting/identifying an issue.
Story time: I had an issue this past season where 80 or so rounds in my barrel would spike 30-40 FPS, zero would shift slightly and I’d start hitting high. This first appeared in July at the THS match in SD and I was chonoing every prone stage until it settled. I wasn’t able to trouble shoot it from then to the PRS finale, (due to unfortunate family life circumstances), and it hurt a lot more this time, but I was able to keep up with it due to the Garmin. Since then I’ve been able to test and talk to a few folks like Buschman and found the problem. It wasn’t a carbon ring or anything like that.

Kestrel: valuable piece of kit to update environmentals in apps like 4DOF if you don’t use the ballistics on the Kestrel, get wind values, and true up both velocity and BC if you need to. Additionally, you can use it to “tune” yourself on what certain wind values feel like.

Both are valuable for their own reasons.

Being at the competition you can always ask to borrow someone else’s Garmin, but it’s a little more awkward to ask to see someone’s Kestrel to update your l app since some folks use it as their solver. So if I haddddd to pick one it would be the Kestrel first and the get a Garmin later.

 

[clefairy]

The most important equipment, is the friends you made along the way.

 

[OREGUN]

Just because no one has said it yet, the Labradar is overpriced, obsolete, and unless you just love finicky, unsupported technology that delivers esoteric data, shouldn’t even be a consideration.

 

[Tokay444]

Just because no one has said it yet, the Labradar is overpriced, obsolete, and unless you just love finicky, unsupported technology that delivers esoteric data, shouldn’t even be a consideration.

There’s a new Labradar.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Get both. You’ll end up with them anyhow

 

[JR1200W3]

I'll be renting out the use of my 5700 and Xero at the next match. $6.89 a stage for a target card, plus a flat rate of $13 to hold your gun profile for 32 hours. $4.50 to have the targets pointed out using my Binos with a 2 min max observation period. I'm going to have to have a $600 damage deposit in case you change my tripod legs and I find you caused it to blow over in the wind or come down with pink eye later. $20 to borrow the Xero during "sight in" but that will go towards any additional services as a credit later in the match.

 

[CybrSlydr]

I'll be renting out the use of my 5700 and Xero at the next match. $6.89 a stage for a target card, plus a flat rate of $13 to hold your gun profile for 32 hours. $4.50 to have the targets pointed out using my Binos with a 2 min max observation period. I'm going to have to have a $600 damage deposit in case you change my tripod legs and I find you caused it to blow over in the wind or come down with pink eye later. $20 to borrow the Xero during "sight in" but that will go towards any additional services as a credit later in the match.

 

[JR1200W3]

View attachment 8556083

This guy gets capitalism

 

[OREGUN]

There’s a new Labradar.

Oh yeah. Forgot about that. Does it suck as bad as the last one?

 

[CybrSlydr]

Oh yeah. Forgot about that. Does it suck as bad as the last one?

I read a review where it sounds comparable to the Garmin, but a little slower and not quite as user friendly.

Labradar LX Review: Can This Compact Chronograph Dethrone the Garmin Xero C1 Pro?

The Labradar LX chronograph is a major upgrade over the original version, but it faces serious competition from the Garmin Xero C1 Pro.

www.outdoorlife.com

 

[OREGUN]

I read a review where it sounds comparable to the Garmin, but a little slower and not quite as user friendly.

Labradar LX Review: Can This Compact Chronograph Dethrone the Garmin Xero C1 Pro?

The Labradar LX chronograph is a major upgrade over the original version, but it faces serious competition from the Garmin Xero C1 Pro.

www.outdoorlife.com

I guess the previous “spend a fortune and then if you want it to work you also have to buy a stand, a battery, a trigger, and a drinking straw” experience left a bad taste.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

My son and I are still using the original Labradar and I was really hoping that their new unit would be a world beater. Especially considering they pretty much revolutionized measuring rifle velocity.

In the old days, chronograph screens were REAL SCREENS, that had to be replaced after every shot. And consumer units were as costly if not more costly than today's units which in 1960's dollars was no small expense. (Remington 700's were $169.00 and make today's rifles look like the rejects from the cheap rifles lines, and Mark V Weatherby's were around $250. So, a 300 to 600 dollar Chrono could be a budget breaker. in 1967, nice 56 and 57 Chevy' 2 door hardtop Bel Aire's could be had for that price.

The next big jump was the sensor screens. And of course the Chrony. Then the Magnetospeed, (not my favorite) and finally the Labradar.

In case anyone might be wondering, a cheap 1964 $300 dollar Chrono according to one inflation calculator would be over $3000.00 today. As I said, a budget breaker.

 

[beetroot]

The point of a chrono is you can see if your box ammo is any good, if the next box is as good as the last box, if the weather or your shooting strings (heat soak) is messing with your data, etc.

This will keep you sane and let you focus on more important things. There's alot of value in knowing what to worry about and what NOT to worry about, when trying to be efficient with time.

Exactly this.
If you are a reloader and buy powder by the 8lb jug and primers by the 1000, chances are your ammo isn't going to change much much.

If you are buying a few boxes of factory ammo months apart at a time then it's a whole new world.
22lr shows this the most dramatically, I've had one batch of Eley Club that shot 12"+ tall groups at 200yards, the batch before and after that was excellent. Shooting 22lr over a chronograph helps keep you sane by letting you know you didn't pull that shot, it was actually 100fps faster/slower than it was supposed to be.

The Garmin C1 especially is a game changer, you can attach the sucker to your rifle and track damn near ever shot you take.
Do you need to do that? Of course not, but it's an option you have.

 

[bbyars]

Just my $0.02, Id spend the money on the kestrel first because your going to spend atleast 2-3 months actually learning how to use the damn thing before it clicks. After purchase id probably sign up for a class before buying the chronograph still. Elite is the way to go if you plan to get serious but can done with just the sportman. Depending on how you true your rifle dope in the kestrel may or may not skew your chrono numbers anyway.

Damn near everywhere you go the zero line is lined with chronographs that you can borrow. Chronograph there really isnt any real learning curve, just turn it on and shoot over it....or around it if you get one of the newer ones. For me its just a diagnostic tool to make sure rifle is staying consistent and there is or isnt a problem with the ammo or barrel. With the newer chronos being able to shoot a stage with the chrono attached can make or break the day especially mid match.

 

[Conrad]

A number of good replies and ultimately your goal is both, but I think I'll re-iterate getting the kestrel first. My opinion is absolutely tied to the advent of the Garmin. Most of us bought one because it's awesome and you should too eventually--so with that being said I think if you show up early, wander over to the zero line, you're going to find multiple Garmins set up and it's so easy to plop down and shoot 5-10 shots over one and be ready to rock. The time spent asking to shoot over one is miniscule compared to bumming wind calls/data throughout the match. You need to be running your kestrel and learning to read wind and run your equipment, iron out your process/workflow etc. This is a primary learning curve vs just getting an average velocity for your rifle. I'll caveat all that with saying your reloading processes need to be sound such that your SD is adequate (not amazing, simply within for PRS) or you are shooting same lot of factory etc.