Rifle Scopes If you could go back in time....

[Pictorious]

If you could go back in time and buy your first optic for your first bolt action rifle build in .308 to get out to 1000yrds at your local range what optic would you buy?

I'm torn between saving up for 4-5 months for a s&b pmii or one month for a bushnell elite w/ h59 reticle and calling it good.

My goal is to get out 1000 yrds. 2nd goal will be shooting in a local match and 3rd I will probably be going to a training class with the end rifle setup. I'm a new shooter, so any help would be great!

 

[TheGerman]

Buy once, cry once.

Don't know how many people I've run into over time that bought 'something decent' that they could afford and get RIGHT NOW. Usually I'd see them trying to see their lightly used scope after a while; you just have to figure out if whatever the differences in the optics are is worth the extra cost to you and you're not just buying a more expensive scope because of the name.

 

[Lafayette]

I worked my way up the ladder...

Weaver, Leupold MK4 SFP, SWFAHD, S&B

I don't think theres anything wrong with working your way up, sure you loose some money on the resale (if you don't just buy more rifles) but you will learn what you like and don't like... Tough to do that without experience...

 

[thrusty]

Agreed with TheGerman - you have to do your research and determine why you are paying the price you are. A S&B mounted on your rifle isn't going to make you shoot better....however, you will be able to see great though as they are very clear.

Anyway....if I could do it over again - I'd have a FFP scope in MIL/MIL, 5-22x would be about the right power in FFP for my current needs.
About 7 years ago I bought a Leupold 4.5-14x Mk4...matter of fact it works great for what I used it for at the time - didn't need FFP and I always shoot on 14x power...I have no problem seeing targets and hitting targets with it...it was around $1200 at the time. Currently...I really have my eye on the new Mk8..I have a better rifle and caliber now and I'm to the point I feel like I'm outshooting my current Mk4, so it's time to upgrade.

 

[thrusty]

I worked my way up the ladder...

Weaver, Leupold MK4 SFP, SWFAHD, S&B

I don't think theres anything wrong with working your way up, sure you loose some money on the resale (if you don't just buy more rifles) but you will learn what you like and don't like... Tough to do that without experience...

+1 on this. Nothing wrong with purchasing equipment that meets your skill level or budget. I'd rather see someone who's capable of outshooting a Millet and needing to upgrade than someone who has dropped $3,500 on an S&B and tells me they are a first-time shooter. More power too them...I just get jealous that I can't afford to spend that kinda coin.

 

[TheGerman]

Cher - If I Could Turn Back Time - YouTube

But with this in mind, would have NEVER bought a Leupold MK4 with the .5 MOA/1 MOA turrets years ago.

 

[thrusty]

lmao - If I could turn back time, I would not have came back into this thread and pressed the play button on that YouTube video. Nice work German....damn song will be stuck in my head all day.

 

[Pictorious]

Thank you for all of the info. Side note I had the millet lrs and it was decent but after looking through it for while my eyes would just bug out if u know what I mean.

 

[Jrb572]

If your talking about the bushnell HDMR I would say buy. You might just be happy with it in the long run. I own a henny and an S&B. love both of those scopes. I bought the HDMR with zero stop after the Brawl this year for an AR 10 I rarely shoot. Is it a henny or S&B ? No. But I am definitely not dissapointed in it. My only gripe about the scope is the parallax. It is not marked with yardage. Buy a used S&B or go with the HDMR. I do not think you will go wrong. There was a lot of guys running the bushnell there and I don't think it hurt there performance. They kicked my ass. Not that I am a great shot.

 

[kraigWY]

When I started shooting 1000 yards matches I bought a Weaver T-10 for my Model 70 in 300 WM, that was in the 70s.

If I could go back in time, I'd buy a Weaver T-10, it worked then, it still works now.

 

[sib1948]

leave your politics off this board or find another place to hang out

 

[steve123]

If you could go back in time and buy your first optic for your first bolt action rifle build in .308 to get out to 1000yrds at your local range what optic would you buy?

I'm torn between saving up for 4-5 months for a s&b pmii or one month for a bushnell elite w/ h59 reticle and calling it good.

My goal is to get out 1000 yrds. 2nd goal will be shooting in a local match and 3rd I will probably be going to a training class with the end rifle setup. I'm a new shooter, so any help would be great!

If you don't need illume and don't see yourself using the 10Y parallax of the S&B 5-25 then get the HDMR, mine were 100% GTG. Why wait 4-5 months when you could be shooting in a few weeks.

I don't regret buying the S&B at all though, it's a fine scope and a pleasure to look through. We have night matches so I gotta have illume. The S&B gets used on the FT air rifle nearly every month as well. I wish I could afford another.

 

[Nebula]

+1 on this. Nothing wrong with purchasing equipment that meets your skill level or budget. I'd rather see someone who's capable of outshooting a Millet and needing to upgrade than someone who has dropped $3,500 on an S&B and tells me they are a first-time shooter. More power too them...I just get jealous that I can't afford to spend that kinda coin.

According to many here, you should never shoot a single shot until you have at least $5,000 tied up in a rifle.

 

[Bruno]

That's not my understanding, spend what you can afford. A Rem 700 5R and a Sightron SIII for about $1500 was how I started, based on good advice. I still have both items, and they work excellent, especially considering that when I bought them I couldn't tell you a damn bit of difference between high dollar and them. To me that was high dollar stuff. Now, if you would have handed me my current setup, I would have learned less about me and what I wanted. It's all a learning process, but set a budget and buy what you can afford. Stay within your means, if you don't then you can end up with $7-10k in gear really quick, and not have a damn clue how to use it.

 

[XOR]

If you could go back in time and buy your first optic for your first bolt action rifle build in .308 to get out to 1000yrds at your local range what optic would you buy?

I'm torn between saving up for 4-5 months for a s&b pmii or one month for a bushnell elite w/ h59 reticle and calling it good.

My goal is to get out 1000 yrds. 2nd goal will be shooting in a local match and 3rd I will probably be going to a training class with the end rifle setup. I'm a new shooter, so any help would be great!

My first rifle was a 700PSS with Leupold Mark IV variable scope. I still have that combo and it worked great for me for years and didn't break the bank.

I then moved to a NightForce F1 because I wanted matching reticle/knobs and front focal plane that Leupold didn't offer at the time.

I then tried out an S&B and honestly the NightForce seemed just as nice to me. Ok the glass wasn't as good (maybe), but for rifle shooting in all weather the NightForce was perfect. You need to look at the whole package: Optics, adjustments, reticle, illumination, durability, etc. The S&B had those features, but the NightForce did as well and was 2/3rd the price and had a much better warranty. I also think the NightForce is a tougher scope.

Also consider that shooting out to 1000 yards you'll never need more than 15X unless you are doing benchrest/F-Class etc. from prone or a very stable platform. Perfect glass is also less relevant than people think. I can't say I ever missed a target because of chromatic aberration and failure to render blues perfectly. But you will miss targets if the adjustments aren't reliable, so focus on that part first and worry about glass quality second.

I will say that in matches and training courses I often shoot 8-10X because it's faster to find targets and have a steadier appearing hold from awkward firing positions. So don't get sucked into the need for 20-25X which will just cost you more money and give you a heavier scope. 15X max power is perfectly fine for 1000 yard shooting.

So buy what you can reasonably afford. Once you get over the $1000-1500 price there is a point of diminishing returns. Once you hit $2000+ there are even fewer differentiators.

 

[ldunnmobile]

Buy what you can afford to shoot, have money left to buy ammo. As long as it tracks everything else is just gravy.

 

[sib1948]

Start out with a less expensive rifle and learn all the basics before bad habits develop!

 

[Smokerroller]

I would say save up for a while and in the meantime keep researching what you want for when you order. You will thank yourself in 6 months when you have a S&B. You could also think about USO. I have an SN3 3-17x44 that is outstanding and slightly cheaper than the Schmidt. Don't forget about a couple hundred for a base.

 

[scudzuki]

The Bushy DMR/HDMR is a worthy scope.
If you are thinking S&B, might I suggest you look into an open box Steiner 5-25 from CameraLandNY for $1000 less.
Identical specs to the S&B except for the way better warranty and illumination control on the Steiner.

Joe

 

[sulcop96]

There are two types of people who get into shooting, buy-once-cry-once and ADD optics junkies. I have optics ADD and started low and worked up... and down... and up... I buy, use, flip, buy, use, flip and yes I know its a serious disorder but I have no other bad social illness, my family had enough money and my wife shoots too and gets a kick out of my ADD so there is not problem. If you know your the type of person who does not mind taking a loss and moving something as you climb the ladder then and it does not create a financial issue for you or your family then have at it and flip you way up and around until you fine your sweet spot. For me it is the NF ATACR or my March but that is me, and you will get 20 other opinions along the way. If your a buy once cry once person then put a list of wants and needs together. Find a scope in your individual price limit and search out scopes that have ALL of your needs and most of your wants. Then find a way to spend time with those narrowed down on your list. As your going through this exercise save you cash and once you find the one for you buy it and don't look back. The hardest thing with asking opinions of the "best" buy once scope is that there are so many really good ones you need to narrow based on your needs. Good luck!

Sully

 

[Captain Kirk]

Well, I own both and wrote a post about my feelings on the same topic

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...9119-s-b-5-25-bushnell-3-5-21-back-again.html

 

[Ring]

i got to play with a 25x steiner the other day, set it to 20x, sat it next to my razor.. and me and its owner could not see any difference on a 6" and 8" target at 684yards

color, clarity, depth... no difference...

 

[W54/XM-388]

I would say if you can swing it, save up more and look for a good deal on a S&B that is lightly used. You can get them in the $2600 to $2900 range.
Buy a good S&B or USO and you'll be set for the next decade and not have to worry if you should upgrade.
Not that you can't shoot just as well with a cheaper scope, but if you have the urge to get one of the best, then go for it.

I learned a lot buy buying and then changing up, but if I had to do it all over again, I would have saved a fair bit of money by getting the best ones right from the get go.

 

[Sako man]

i got to play with a 25x steiner the other day, set it to 20x, sat it next to my razor.. and me and its owner could not see any difference on a 6" and 8" target at 684yards

color, clarity, depth... no difference...

Yeah, thats pretty much right.

IMHO the SSHD is up there as well.

I am one of those optics junkies as they say, Kahles, SNB, Steiner, Leupold, SS, NF, IOR, Vortex, etc..etc... You pay a lot of cash for a small amount of difference most of the time. Just because you own a stradivarius doesn't mean you can play the fiddle. I now own some good shit and I am still mediocre at best, and I mean at best. It probably makes a difference if your Lowlight, or Ring, as this is their jobs, but for the recreational or occasional competitive shooter such as myself it's more of a novelty and unnecessary. If I was just starting out and a AIAX .260 with SnB25x PMII landed in my lap I wouldn't have a fucking clue what to do with it

My advice is start with a 5R or LTR and throw a Razor or SSHD on it, you will be good for years with that set up. I think the problem is as in most toys and hobbies we always want faster and better.

For what it's worth.

Sako

 

[Ring]

i have a ssHD as well, didnt have it out that day to compare, but in general, ya, the HD has great glass for the cash.. not fond of the ergonomics... but the glass is nice

 

[dtibbals]

Well I say start out with a quality scope. It doesn't need to be an S&B to be a quality scope. Buy an HDMR and get out and shoot. You have to remember that for how 99% of the folks here use their rifles the very best of the best is great to have but won't make you shoot any better.

I personally think you have your first, second and third steps all in the wrong order. First thing you should do once you get the equipment purchased is take training!!!! It should be number one priority not third. Once you get some training then start practicing those skills and matches are a good way to continue working on the skills you have learned in training and apply them with stress involved.

Lastly then work on long distance. So many people place 1000 yards as the holy grail and while it is more challenging then being at 100 yards it is not that difficult once you receive training. I took my very first precision rifle class last year and had some basic understandings from reading and was fortunate enough to have completed around 700 hours of weapons training over the last 5 years. This training was focused primarily on handguns, carbine rifles and tactics but provided me a solid foundation for then taking a precision class. One of the best results that came out of the 700 hours of training is an understanding that you don't know what you don't know. It also has given myself a clear understanding that learning proper skills from the beginning rather then "winging it" is a much wiser path and will allow you to advance much more quickly then having to erase years of poor technique etc.

I will admit I am a whore when it comes to quality equipment. I personally don't own a defensive weapon that I wouldn't take to the sandbox tomorrow. With that being said I was at the time waiting on my GA Precision Rifle but wanted to get a head start on precision rifle training so I enrolled into a class with a $650 Savage 308 with 20" barrel. I spent 4 days in training, 3 of which where on a known distance range working on fundamentals and learning what my equipment could and could not do. The 4th day was shooting in open terrain and ranging targets with your optic. It was a taste of what is to come in precision rifle two. During that day I engaged my first targets of 800 plus yards (never had shot past 600 with any weapon system until that day). I engaged a man sized target at 1,187 yards and made a second round hit in 38 mph winds which varied speed and direction. I stood up and did a touch down dance! It was the coolest thing I have done with my clothes on but once I figured it out it wasn't boring but it sure wasn't as hard as I thought it would be.

If I had not taken training and waited till my $5K+ rifle came in I would not have probably made that shot and most likely not on a second shot (I missed it with a first round hit by a couple inches of wind call). So the moral of the story is get out and learn how to shoot! Equipment comes later and you can upgrade as you feel you need to advance to the next level. I would rather own a Bushnell (which I do have an HDMR with H59 and it's great) and be out shooting and learning then waiting 6 months to buy an S&B. I was able to hit targets with a $650 rifle that guys with $5K rifles couldn't hit. Am I a great shooter? Hell no but I am a student who is constantly learning and maturing and pushing myself and equipment to improve.

I will give props to Travis Haley; I spent 3 days with him doing carbine training before I flew out for a precision rifle class (it was a 9 day straight 10-12 hour days of training..talk about an ass hander!). I learned more about the proper prone position and rapid movement to prone from standing then I have in 100's of hours of carbine training in the past. I was sore as F*@K when I got to precision school but some of the things he taught me translated into huge success in the precision class. So that goes to show you that quality training with people who know what they are doing is priceless!

Get out and shoot and train and let everything else follow!

David

 

[sulcop96]

David makes an excellent and overlooked point, training. Being on the SWAT team and assigned as the sniper section leader I receive a ton BUT still pay out of pocket to take 3-4 courses a year. Recently I was doing a Sig course called reach for 1000, a intermediate level long range course. On the range was a mix of very experienced and very novice shooters. I decided to bring my Howa 1500 with SS 5-20 for the day because my work rifles get a ton of work. Total investment in that rig is $2500 only because I dropped it in a XLR stock, but a reasonable rig. The guy next to me on the line had a new GAP with S&B and set up a Kowa spotter and Leica range finder. I can't fathom the expense. After shooting for a bit he thought I had some magic rig because I was within MOA all day and he was struggling to get a group at all. In talking with him he had almost no money left for quality ammo and was shooting some crap I never heard of and the class was a gift from his family. He didn't even have the money to join a local range/club. When going over the difference in our shooting skill sets he thought it was equipment but it was 100% training, I had a ton and he had none. Had he gone with a Savage 10-FCP and Vortex PST and spent the rest on training he would develop better as a shooter. So in reevaluating costs I say stay below budget on the rifle and optic and go WAY over on training.

Sully

 

[CanPopper]

The problem with many of this "go back in time" is a good number of the scopes mentioned in this thread weren't even available then. They are all of fairly recent vintage.

I would say that if I could go back, I'd buy my Mueller Tactical 3-10x44 SFP scope first instead of some of the others. It is pretty clear and tracks true. I would grow on that scope before upgrading to a FFP one (S&B, Hendsoldt, or Premier...these were actually available "back in time" defined as 5-6 years ago) with more magnification.

 

[dtibbals]

David makes an excellent and overlooked point, training. Being on the SWAT team and assigned as the sniper section leader I receive a ton BUT still pay out of pocket to take 3-4 courses a year. Recently I was doing a Sig course called reach for 1000, a intermediate level long range course. On the range was a mix of very experienced and very novice shooters. I decided to bring my Howa 1500 with SS 5-20 for the day because my work rifles get a ton of work. Total investment in that rig is $2500 only because I dropped it in a XLR stock, but a reasonable rig. The guy next to me on the line had a new GAP with S&B and set up a Kowa spotter and Leica range finder. I can't fathom the expense. After shooting for a bit he thought I had some magic rig because I was within MOA all day and he was struggling to get a group at all. In talking with him he had almost no money left for quality ammo and was shooting some crap I never heard of and the class was a gift from his family. He didn't even have the money to join a local range/club. When going over the difference in our shooting skill sets he thought it was equipment but it was 100% training, I had a ton and he had none. Had he gone with a Savage 10-FCP and Vortex PST and spent the rest on training he would develop better as a shooter. So in reevaluating costs I say stay below budget on the rifle and optic and go WAY over on training.

Sully

Glad to see someone else gets it ...all the training I have done is 100% out of pocket. I think it is that important!

 

[Hairball]

If I could go back in time I would not of purchased a damn thing until after the divorce. Sucks buying the same collection twice.

 

[dang472]

I wouldn't go back and change anything. I bought my first cheap boltgun when I was making shit money and had a new baby to feed. I bought a used Millet Buck Gold 4-16 for it and it got me out shooting probably 3 years before I could afford a "nice" scope. Now, would my targets look better now if I had waited 3 years for a Nightforce and not put those rounds downrange? I think not.

I just bought a few Vortex PSTs to put on a semi and that cheap boltgun. While they aren't S&Bs, I can appreciate now the value of matching reticle/turrets and a zerostop. Does my boltgun suddenly shoot better now that it has better glass? Nope, but the added features make my life easier.

With the resale market on optics fairly healthy, It doesn't hurt to buy and sell too much. A guy who buys a SFP PST for $725-750 can usually sell it for 650-675. Buy a new Nightforce NXS for $1850 and they sell on here for $1700-1750. Try doing that with a new car you decide you don't like in a year.

 

[rchman]

I think David hit the nail on the head. Each person on here would go back and buy X based on preferences developed over years of handling various optics and equipment, then coming to a decision based on what they think they need and can justify. For some, they may find that they can never justify buying a S&B and that a NF or heaven forbid, a Vortex PST FFP or SWFA is sufficient.

I mean, I'm pretty sure there are a handful of NRA high power rifle guys can shoot better with iron sights than some of us (probably me included) can with an optic.

 

[dtibbals]

If I could go back in time I would not of purchased a damn thing until after the divorce. Sucks buying the same collection twice.

HAHAHAHA that is so funny! I have never been married...almost did it twice and decided I liked all my stuff not half lol funny yet very true