If you could pick JP CTR-02 or KAC SR15

[Diesel79]

Long story short is I have a SR15 16” Mod 2 and I have had JP15’s in the past. I’m looking to narrow down to one do it all rifle. Plinking, indoor range, outdoor shooting on the farm, yote hunting, some long distance, something to grab when civilization collapses that works, etc. I’m also not looking to build my own.

I know the rifles are for different purposes but just looking for opinions to have 1 do it all rifle. I’d be ordering the JP with the full mass BCG, H2 equivalent SCS, etc for reliability. Probably be shooting a majority of 5.56, but also 223. I figured if I’m gonna go with a custom ordered JP I might as well go with the billet. I also realize this will make very little if any difference for my intended use. I just like it is all.

KAC’s seem to get a lot of praise for reliability and durability, and JP’s get a lot of praise for fit and finish and accuracy.
I also haven’t been able to find much, if any, cases of failure for JP’s either. The JP’s I have had in my hands have pretty much perfect fit and finish as well.

I live in the Twin Cities area and JP is pretty close by. JP parts are stocked at LGS so that is a plus. KAC, no parts to be found anywhere. Not saying anything would ever break or be needed on either, just stating a point.

I really like the KAC, but I also miss my JP’s. I guess best case scenario is I buy a crap ton of ammo and shoot the sh!t out of what I have and get legit training. Lol

Let the flaming begin!

 

[RedRockCharlie]

Being a JP fan boy, I say go with the CTR-02!! It's an excellent shooter. So precise and smooth!!

 

[davsco]

haven't shot the kac, but i have the ctr02 and have been using it for a handful of years of 2 & 3 gun. i cannot imagine another AR being more reliable or more accurate, just an awesome rifle.

 

[AwesomeDude]

Long story short is I have a SR15 16” Mod 2 and I have had JP15’s in the past. I’m looking to narrow down to one do it all rifle. Plinking, indoor range, outdoor shooting on the farm, yote hunting, some long distance, something to grab when civilization collapses that works, etc. I’m also not looking to build my own.

I know the rifles are for different purposes but just looking for opinions to have 1 do it all rifle. I’d be ordering the JP with the full mass BCG, H2 equivalent SCS, etc for reliability. Probably be shooting a majority of 5.56, but also 223. I figured if I’m gonna go with a custom ordered JP I might as well go with the billet. I also realize this will make very little if any difference for my intended use. I just like it is all.

KAC’s seem to get a lot of praise for reliability and durability, and JP’s get a lot of praise for fit and finish and accuracy.
I also haven’t been able to find much, if any, cases of failure for JP’s either. The JP’s I have had in my hands have pretty much perfect fit and finish as well.

I live in the Twin Cities area and JP is pretty close by. JP parts are stocked at LGS so that is a plus. KAC, no parts to be found anywhere. Not saying anything would ever break or be needed on either, just stating a point.

I really like the KAC, but I also miss my JP’s. I guess best case scenario is I buy a crap ton of ammo and shoot the sh!t out of what I have and get legit training. Lol

Let the flaming begin!

The only gas gun I like more than my JP is my LMT. So between KAC and JP.... I'm team JP all day

 

[GUNNER10]

I would honestly go with what is in stock, One can go back and forth on this stuff all day, but if its going to take 6 months to a year, to actually get a rifle in hand, its not really doing you any good.

While I would probably lean towards a Knights, a completely tunable JP is an awesome piece of equipment, especially if you are shooting a particular load.

 

[MarshallDodge]

JP makes nice stuff but I have been surprised by the accuracy of the SR-15.

 

[BullzeyeNJ]

I have both. The JP does everything the KAC does but shoots smoother, more accurately, and the fit and finish is a couple steps above. JP all day. My SR15 sits back in the safe gathering dust. More of a collectors piece at this point.

 

[96coal449]

something to grab when civilization collapses

I've never had or shot a JP but also never heard of one negative review. I have also never read of any complaints with KAC. I do have an SR25 that I've only shot with irons. I need to get some glass ....

So for my quote of your post, KAC is combat proven. If I read correctly, you already have an SR15 with a 16'' barrel? What about grabbing an SPR type upper for it when you'd like to stretch out a little? I believe BCM is still making their PRI version?

Just my 2 cents and I've always been fond of KAC .....

 

[Diesel79]

I've never had or shot a JP but also never heard of one negative review. I have also never read of any complaints with KAC. I do have an SR25 that I've only shot with irons. I need to get some glass ....

So for my quote of your post, KAC is combat proven. If I read correctly, you already have an SR15 with a 16'' barrel? What about grabbing an SPR type upper for it when you'd like to stretch out a little? I believe BCM is still making their PRI version?

Just my 2 cents and I've always been fond of KAC .....

Correct, I currently have a KAC 16” Mod 2. Right now its the only rifle I have. I have 3-400 rounds through it so far.

I guess I could look at another upper, but I probably go against the whole convenience that AR’s offer and always prefer to get a whole factory rifle. Lol I’ve looked at CLE and WOA uppers several times but have never went that route.

I might just order the CTR-02 and shoot them both for a bit. Trouble is instead of having one rifle I know I’ll end up with two.

Seems like the market for KAC is pretty nuts right now. Not sure if this is a recent trend or if they have always been hard to get. I could likely sell the KAC and fund the entire custom CTR build, or at least most of it. I also have the standard carbine buffer and H2 KAC buffer that is nearly impossible to get. It would be a nice package for someone if I decide to let it go.

 

[Crews]

Never owned a complete rifle from either, and never even seen a KAC. But I use a lot of JP parts, and damn they’re fine. I vote JP.

 

[RickyRodney]

Get both, apples to oranges.

Go LMOS, AGB and SCS, and a SCI-20 for the JP for the ultimate in smooth operation and accuracy. And enjoy the best of both worlds.

 

[Diesel79]

Get both, apples to oranges.

Go LMOS, AGB and SCS, and a SCI-20 for the JP for the ultimate in smooth operation and accuracy. And enjoy the best of both worlds.

Yea, having both would be a really nice option.

 

[TurboTrout]

I have a CTR, is like a silky smooth laser

 

[Naaman]

I was actually expecting to see 1000 posts that say "go with KAC and be done."

 

[Diesel79]

I have a CTR, is like a silky smooth laser

Do you have the 3 port comp for muzzle?

 

[Diesel79]

I was actually expecting to see 1000 posts that say "go with KAC and be done."

I was expecting the same. Lol.

 

[TurboTrout]

Do you have the 3 port comp for muzzle?

It’s the JP blended signature brake, I think they call it.

 

[Diesel79]

It’s the JP blended signature brake, I think they call it.

Got it, pretty sure I know which one it is.

 

[Wildfire1550]

I have both. The JP does everything the KAC does but shoots smoother, more accurately, and the fit and finish is a couple steps above. JP all day. My SR15 sits back in the safe gathering dust. More of a collectors piece at this point.

^^^^^^^^I have both and shoot the JP more

 

[TonyTheTiger]

JP.
Too bad you gotta budget to replace the garbage Hogue furniture right away.

 

[Diesel79]

JP.
Too bad you gotta budget to replace the garbage Hogue furniture right away.

They give you some Magpul options in their rifle builder. I’ve got some furniture on hand too I could put on it. I haven’t tried everything, but Magpul SLS stock and k2 grip is what I’ve come to like.

 

[FALex]

I’m a big fan of both. I’m reluctant to vote against KAC, because I do love them. However, at this point in time, the prices on KAC’s, IMHO, do not make them a truly viable option.

I just sent my brother an auction for a non-ambi SR-15, NIB, which was listed for 6500.00. The auction already ended, which usually means they sold it in-store.

 

[Zane1844]

I’d go with what you already have. Use the extra cash for ammo, or optics, etc.

 

[Diesel79]

I’d go with what you already have. Use the extra cash for ammo, or optics, etc.

Yea, that’s a good point too. I’ve got a CompM5 on it now that I like so probably wouldn’t need to do much else with optics, at least not for the distance I’m typically shooting. A guy can never have too much ammo and practice/training.

 

[Diesel79]

I’m a big fan of both. I’m reluctant to vote against KAC, because I do love them. However, at this point in time, the prices on KAC’s, IMHO, do not make them a truly viable option.

I just sent my brother an auction for a non-ambi SR-15, NIB, which was listed for 6500.00. The auction already ended, which usually means they sold it in-store.

Damn, $6,500 is a crazy price to list at, non ambi is even more crazy.

 

[FALex]

Damn, $6,500 is a crazy price to list at, non ambi is even more crazy.

Trust me brother, I am a fairly consistent observer of the firearms market, new and used. At this present time, damn near every other firearm on the planet has decreased in value. The only manufacturer that I have observed that is going the opposite direction, is KAC.

The non-ambi 6500.00 SR-15 was notable, but the standard SR-15 Mod 2 (fully ambi) that was listed at 8200.00 really caught my attention. LOL.

To be honest, KAC makes a great rifle, well-balanced, reliable, etc...as with many other AR's, I'm not sure that it would outperform my Colt.

Now, when we're discussing JP, we're discussing a "system." You're talking about getting this semi-auto rifle to shoot reliably and very accurately, while depositing your brass in a neat little pile just outside of your rifle. JP has really developed the AR, making it a very high standard to live up to.

It wasn't too long ago, many people, including many on the hide, would refer to JP rifles as "gamer guns." Meaning, you wouldn't want a JP rifle as a "serious" platform, "but they're great for 3 gun!" I always argued against that philosophy, because I've owned a couple of JP's for several years now. With my personal experience, I knew back then, just as I know now, that the "gamer gun" description could not be more incorrect. It appears that the "gamer gun" business seems to have gone away...I haven't read or heard that phrase in a few years now.

 

[Diesel79]

Trust me brother, I am a fairly consistent observer of the firearms market, new and used. At this present time, damn near every other firearm on the planet has decreased in value. The only manufacturer that I have observed that is going the opposite direction, is KAC.

The non-ambi 6500.00 SR-15 was notable, but the standard SR-15 Mod 2 (fully ambi) that was listed at 8200.00 really caught my attention. LOL.

To be honest, KAC makes a great rifle, well-balanced, reliable, etc...as with many other AR's, I'm not sure that it would outperform my Colt.

Now, when we're discussing JP, we're discussing a "system." You're talking about getting this semi-auto rifle to shoot reliably and very accurately, while depositing your brass in a neat little pile just outside of your rifle. JP has really developed the AR, making it a very high standard to live up to.

It wasn't too long ago, many people, including many on the hide, would refer to JP rifles as "gamer guns." Meaning, you wouldn't want a JP rifle as a "serious" platform, "but they're great for 3 gun!" I always argued against that philosophy, because I've owned a couple of JP's for several years now. With my personal experience, I knew back then, just as I know now, that the "gamer gun" description could not be more incorrect. It appears that the "gamer gun" business seems to have gone away...I haven't read or heard that phrase in a few years now.

I think the scarcity now and the foreseeable future is one of the reasons that makes me want to keep the KAC. Well that and it is a damn nice rifle with some proprietary hardware that is an improvement on the platform. And we all know it’s track record on reliability/durability.

Trouble is I also know how sweet the JP’s shoot, also reliable/durable, and they have impeccable fit and finish. Thats pulling me in that direction.

It’s a tough choice between the two. There might be a chance I’ll own a CTR and a SR15. Lol

 

[Naaman]

I think the scarcity now and the foreseeable future is one of the reasons that makes me want to keep the KAC. Well that and it is a damn nice rifle with some proprietary hardware that is an improvement on the platform. And we all know it’s track record on reliability/durability.

Trouble is I also know how sweet the JP’s shoot, also reliable/durable, and they have impeccable fit and finish. Thats pulling me in that direction.

It’s a tough choice between the two. There might be a chance I’ll own a CTR and a SR15. Lol

Is this a financial decision you're making? If you have the money to burn, and the space in the safe, why NOT just have both?

Me? I'm in a similar boat trying to decide whether to do the "responsible" thing and liquidate one rifle to fund another... Or just splurge and get the other. In my situation, though, the money is a factor.

I also make a hobby of turning thought experiments about "optimizing" my resources into reality... Trying to solve a problem while imposing logistical constraints on myself.

That's how I ended up with a "lightweight" deer gun that weighs almost 10 lbs...

 

[lennyo3034]

How accurate is your KAC?

I ask because I've had two, both pencil barrel 16". One shoots well and would be considered accurate for a chrome lined pencil barrel. The other is unbelievably accurate and will hang with my heavy Kriegers and Bartliens.

If the former, I would sell at the current inflated prices. If the latter, maybe hang on to it.

 

[Diesel79]

Is this a financial decision you're making? If you have the money to burn, and the space in the safe, why NOT just have both?

Me? I'm in a similar boat trying to decide whether to do the "responsible" thing and liquidate one rifle to fund another... Or just splurge and get the other. In my situation, though, the money is a factor.

I also make a hobby of turning thought experiments about "optimizing" my resources into reality... Trying to solve a problem while imposing logistical constraints on myself.

That's how I ended up with a "lightweight" deer gun that weighs almost 10 lbs...

More trying to be responsible. Pretty much the exact situation you described that your in. Lol. Do I really need these two expensive rifles, nope…..but it sure would be a nice pair to have.

 

[Diesel79]

How accurate is your KAC?

I ask because I've had two, both pencil barrel 16". One shoots well and would be considered accurate for a chrome lined pencil barrel. The other is unbelievably accurate and will hang with my heavy Kriegers and Bartliens.

If the former, I would sell at the current inflated prices. If the latter, maybe hang on to it.

I haven’t been able to find any Black Hills 77gr OTM in stock. From what I understand that is the gold standard for checking accuracy of a rifle. I might just order some of the IMI 77gr Razor Core as that is readily available from Midway.

 

[the monk]

I haven’t been able to find any Black Hills 77gr OTM in stock. From what I understand that is the gold standard for checking accuracy of a rifle. I might just order some of the IMI 77gr Razor Core as that is readily available from Midway.

I have had good luck with PMC 77gr OTM Match - .75 MOA out of my Hodge.

 

[TheOE800]

I have both. The JP does everything the KAC does but shoots smoother, more accurately, and the fit and finish is a couple steps above. JP all day. My SR15 sits back in the safe gathering dust. More of a collectors piece at this point.

Sell it while the market is high.

I haven’t been able to find any Black Hills 77gr OTM in stock. From what I understand that is the gold standard for checking accuracy of a rifle. I might just order some of the IMI 77gr Razor Core as that is readily available from Midway.

Black Hills has only produced TMK for the commercial market last year is what I was told by a Black Hills dealer.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

One is a game/toy and one is a hard use gun you can trust your life to.

Decide which is more important to you.

 

[Evolution 9]

One is a game/toy and one is a hard use gun you can trust your life to.

Decide which is more important to you.

No gun manufacturer puts out only guns that “you can trust your life to”.

Even KAC has had to help numerous customers troubleshoot gas issues, feeding issues, accuracy issues, etc.

I’m a KAC fan and have owned several, but they are not magic or bulletproof.

Comp guns (depending on the competition style) usually see FAR more abuse than KAC owners generally subject their guns to.

If one is more statistically proven (accuracy and dependability over high volumes of fire and dirty conditions), there’s a VERY good chance it’s JP.

Again, I’m a KAC owner and fan, but it’s hard to find a JP reliability or accuracy complaint, and it’s not hard to find them for KAC.

 

[Naaman]

More trying to be responsible. Pretty much the exact situation you described that your in. Lol. Do I really need these two expensive rifles, nope…..but it sure would be a nice pair to have.

Honestly, if KACs were more available, I'd probably want one, regardless of whatever else I had. Not saying you SHOULD get both , but at the moment, you're in an enviable position with a MOD2 in your possession. I don't know how hard JPs are to come by, but if they're made to order, it may be as simple as getting on a waiting list. With a KAC, you get on a bunch of dealers' lists with no guarantee as to when yours will ship.

Maybe the answer is to get the JP, and once you have both, you can decide whether you want to sell off the KAC or not... ?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

No gun manufacturer puts out only guns that “you can trust your life to”.

Even KAC has had to help numerous customers troubleshoot gas issues, feeding issues, accuracy issues, etc.

I’m a KAC fan and have owned several, but they are not magic or bulletproof.

Comp guns (depending on the competition style) usually see FAR more abuse than KAC owners generally subject their guns to.

If one is more statistically proven (accuracy and dependability over high volumes of fire and dirty conditions), there’s a VERY good chance it’s JP.

Again, I’m a KAC owner and fan, but it’s hard to find a JP reliability or accuracy complaint, and it’s not hard to find them for KAC.

Bullshit red herring argument. This is what happens when people don't like the answer but can't come to grips with reality.

 

[FN15]

Have had a JP Enterprises gun since 1998. Probably around 7500 rounds through it over 20 years. It has primarily been a squirrel rifle but it has gone 700+ rounds without cleaning.
Still shoots subMOA with a couple of loads. It has been dead nuts reliable with the exception of a few issues I caused due to poor component selection for handloads.
JP Enterprises was around doing this stuff long before anyone else came along. Their rifles generally run and run well.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The real answer is to get 2 or 3 of whatever you decide so you have a backup if one has to go down or needs work done.

If i was buying new hard use/Duty type guns today here would be my value based order:

1. G Super Duty rifles. for 1.5-2K, they cannot be beat.
2. KAC SR15 in whatever mod you can find.
3. LMT MARS-L or similar variant

There are lots of good guns out there, the ones above are proven under the worst conditions. I typically go thousands of rounds of steel cased .223 before cleaning my SR's. My mod 0 has about 4.5K on it now without cleaning, just lube shooting mostly weak ass dirty wolf. Let me know when your JP can do the same and run just as well from -20 to 120*.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Have had a JP Enterprises gun since 1998. Probably around 7500 rounds through it over 20 years. It has primarily been a squirrel rifle but it has gone 700+ rounds without cleaning.
Still shoots subMOA with a couple of loads. It has been dead nuts reliable with the exception of a few issues I caused due to poor component selection for handloads.
JP Enterprises was around doing this stuff long before anyone else came along. Their rifles generally run and run well.

700 rounds isn't shit, its about half to 2/3 of a carbine class. Any AR15 that can't go 1K rounds between cleaning should be thrown in the trash.

KAC has been around since the 80s. They worked with Eugene stoner, the fucking guy who actually invented the AR15, to develop the SR-25.

In 1998 Stoner was already dead. Try to keep up.

 

[Evolution 9]

@DeathBeforeDismount ,

You clearly don’t know what a red herring fallacy is.

Also, your emotion based religion is showing.

KAC makes really good stuff, but your responses are emotion/worship driven, not logic driven…

Which makes sense since you misdiagnosed a red herring fallacy

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

@DeathBeforeDismount ,

You clearly don’t know what a red herring fallacy is.

Also, your emotion based religion is showing.

KAC makes really good stuff, but your responses are emotion/worship driven, not logic driven…

Which makes sense since you misdiagnosed a red herring fallacy

I know exactly what It means and you just used an perfect example. Otherwise known as a Logical Fallacy. Its clear YOU do not understand what it means.

"No gun manufacturer puts out only guns that “you can trust your life to”.

Even KAC has had to help numerous customers troubleshoot gas issues, feeding issues, accuracy issues, etc."


If I have two gun brands for example and one has a 1/1000th failure rate and one has a 10/1000th failure rate, there is a significant difference between the two. In fact one is more reliable by an order of magnitude.

Your argument is everyone puts out a bad gun. That is what's called a Logical Fallacy in an attempt to win an argument where you are ignoring the context.

A Toyoya and Yugo are both cars. Since they both have failed before they both are equal. This is your logic.

Only an autistic retard would not understand the difference. If you are actually one, I appologize in advance for your disabilities.


Now show me a JP rifle that has gone 5-10k+ rounds without cleaning, run in horrible conditions and just keeps going. Oh and one that won't have its bolt lugs sheared off in that same time. One that can run from cheap steel cased puff loads to full power M885A1 without missing a beat. I will be waiting.

 

[Evolution 9]

 

[NormandyVA]

I've never had or shot a JP but also never heard of one negative review. I have also never read of any complaints with KAC. I do have an SR25 that I've only shot with irons. I need to get some glass ....

So for my quote of your post, KAC is combat proven. If I read correctly, you already have an SR15 with a 16'' barrel? What about grabbing an SPR type upper for it when you'd like to stretch out a little? I believe BCM is still making their PRI version?

Just my 2 cents and I've always been fond of KAC .....

I have an LPR upper. For what you are talking about above, that’s what I’d go with.

 

[TheOE800]

700 rounds isn't shit, its about half to 2/3 of a carbine class. Any AR15 that can't go 1K rounds between cleaning should be thrown in the trash.

KAC has been around since the 80s. They worked with Eugene stoner, the fucking guy who actually invented the AR15, to develop the SR-25.

In 1998 Stoner was already dead. Try to keep up.

SR…Stoner Rifle. The only rifle he put his name on.

I have an LPR upper. For what you are talking about above, that’s what I’d go with.

Everyone should own a LPR, what a sublime upper receiver.

 

[aslrookie]

Sounds like you really want a JP, so you should just have both. Or skip the JP and buy more ammo/training/competing.

 

[Diesel79]

Sounds like you really want a JP, so you should just have both. Or skip the JP and buy more ammo/training/competing.

That is looking like the most logical solution right there.

 

[the monk]

I think it's odd that the majority of people in this thread are comparing these two guns. You are comparing a Ferrari to a JLTV. They have completely different use cases. The JP is an extremely accurate rifle that is very smooth (a dream to shoot) with limited recoil. It is a system that is designed to be extremely fast and flat shooting. They have the recipe down to a science and can easily stand with all of the top tier civilian ARs on the market. But its lineage is on the competition side. The JP is an extremely polished top tier AR designed for civilian use and semi auto fire.

The KAC is a military weapon that is made for reliability under high rates of fire including extended full auto fire (like mag dump after mag dump of suppressive full auto fire). Everything about the KAC is designed for reliability from the barrel bolt interface, enlarged bolt face and lugs, sandcutter bcg, the downsized bolt cam pin, completely sealed gas system, and the URX rail system made to carry an array of accessories include IR lasers that need to hold zero. Although it is accurate for what it is the JP will run circles around it, just like the KAC will run circles around the JP reliability wise. The JP drives nothing like the KAC and vice versa. If you dont know the difference, thats cool, just buy the gun that makes you happy. But there is a difference.

 

[Jigstick]

For a do it all everything kind of rifle I wouldn’t choose either or those honestly. My preference would be for a Radian or BCM. But I’m hard on my shit.

 

[BridgerWSS]

No gun manufacturer puts out only guns that “you can trust your life to”.

Your use of the word “only” here suggests you’re trying way to hard to pick a fight. Why?
Adding the word “only” also makes it a red herring giving you what you need to launch your argument.

Even KAC has had to help numerous customers troubleshoot gas issues, feeding issues, accuracy issues, etc.

I’m a KAC fan and have owned several, but they are not magic or bulletproof.

These paragraphs are also the red herring FYI. Nobody claimed this wasn’t true, you twisted what @DeathBeforeDismount saud which was completely true as a generalization like he meant a it. You can trust your life to Glocks and LMTs and H&Ks and Hiluxs... we all know there are lemons. You just had to twist it to be all technical about it to pick a fight. You not get any lately or were you not breast fed enough as a child or maybe you were adopted so you’re just angry at life?

Comp guns (depending on the competition style) usually see FAR more abuse than KAC owners generally subject their guns to.

Haha. You’re trolling right? Seems your style. Maybe this whole thing is a troll? @the monk and @DeathBeforeDismount have said it above, JPs run super well. Super accurate. No one argues that. But they also are primarily shot in more controlled nvironments, get cleaned more often use better ammo or custom loads and are tuned to be reliable with specific parameters. They usually won’t run with steel, Hornsby Match, 55 to 77 grain etc without a tweak. Maybe you don’t hear issues with JP because people expect to tweak them which means they expect issues.

I also haven’t heard of a single overseas use or mil contract or LE agency who issued them. I’m sure you know of one so before you technically disagree with me, I acknowledge there probably is one. There’s probably a reason for them not being issues/used in a widespread manner where lives are on the line.

Like trying to get a handgun to run with a comp reliably, no one bitches they have to change recoil springs or only shoot +P ammo to get it to consistently run right? But it’s super reliable .... within what it is tweaked to do, it is. But KAC was designed to operate on a wider spectrum of elements from ammo types to temperature ranges to environmental (sand dust etc) and has proprietary parts like the bolt which by definition makes it more durable/have more longevity.