Info request: Out of the box accuracy - CZ455 vs Savage Mk II

[FailureToStart]

So I hit the range last week and sent ~140 rounds of good .308 into the berm. On the way home, reality set in. IF I could find that ammo in stock anywhere right now, I probably couldn't afford to replace it.

I've got a bunch of extra .22LR in storage and this might be a good time to get into a .22LR "Trainer".

I've spent the day (oooo a whole day!) doing some research and have pretty much narrowed it down to a CZ 455 or Savage MkII, Specifically the Precision Trainer or FV-SR. Anschutz is a little outside my price range.

I'd like it to match my Remington 700 which has a threaded barrel and will eventually live in a Manners stock, most likely a T4.

Does anyone have any solid data on what I can reasonably expect accuracy wise out of either of these rifles in factory condition?

Both of them have a long list of pros and cons, all I'm interested in at the moment is out of the box accuracy.

What say ye SnipersHide Rimfire gods, how do these rifles measure up?

 

[bm11]

If the .22 was in stock, you probably couldn't afford to replace IT either. Have you looked at .22 ammo costs lately? They have skyrocket far more than centerfire.

Not trying to piss in your Chereos, just venting my own frustration at the current state of affairs. Unfortunately, now is not a good time to get a .22 with the goal of saving money on ammo in mind.

 

[Bunnypunter]

I'm no rimfire god but I picked up a Savage FV-SR last month to do the same thing as you. I can sit at 50 yards and punch .5 MOA with decent ammo. Funny enough, mine likes crappy Blazer ammo over the good Remington stuff I fed it. Go figure. Anyway, I am shooting suppressed and have expirienced great results. I seem to get them punching 1 hole then either pull it or have an off round. Either way, its a blast and keeps my basic skills fresh. I streched it out to 100 yd on paper and it shoots about 0.75-1 moa. Still not bad for a .22. I have no trigger time with the CZ but the Savage has been a great buy IMHO and would never look back, especially for the price.

 

[Snake-Eyes]

My Mark-2 FV-SR gets about .25" groups at 25-yards. So, extrapolated out, that's estimating 1 MOA... (I need to actually stretch its legs, though)

I got it used, already living in a Boyd's Tacticool stock, with upgraded bottom hardware. Nothing dramatic, but it feels solid and could pass for a "clone/trainer" for what you want. "Out of the box", that plastic stock would've felt cheap/toy-ish to me...

With upgrades, it would be around $400+ total.

FWIW, I enjoy shooting the hell out of it. A subsonic round with a suppressor just makes you laugh each time you hear the trigger click...

 

[ivanthesane]

Savage, spend your savings on better glass.

Actually, it is probably a toss up - find one made Monday morning or Friday afternoon vs. Wednesday mid morning, etc.

But.. the CZ will look nicer coming out of the box.

 

[bm11]

I'm no rimfire god but I picked up a Savage FV-SR last month to do the same thing as you. I can sit at 50 yards and punch .5 MOA with decent ammo. Funny enough, mine likes crappy Blazer ammo over the good Remington stuff I fed it. Go figure. Anyway, I am shooting suppressed and have expirienced great results. I seem to get them punching 1 hole then either pull it or have an off round. Either way, its a blast and keeps my basic skills fresh. I streched it out to 100 yd on paper and it shoots about 0.75-1 moa. Still not bad for a .22. I have no trigger time with the CZ but the Savage has been a great buy IMHO and would never look back, especially for the price.

Please post up a target board with multiple five round groups of .5 MOA (.25 inches) at 50 yards out of your savage.

 

[justin amateur]

find one made Monday morning or Friday afternoon vs. Wednesday

And there's the cold, hard facts. It's the assembly line lottery, no telling if what you get
will be a tight shooting jewel or the one that get's by for what now passes as quality control.
I've seen both types come off the CZ and Savage production lines. CZ's that are consistent
moa rifles and ones that barely qualify as plinkers. Same for Savage, no telling how the parts
are going to fit together as they come off the line. It's a crap shoot. The rule is simple,
you want guaranteed accuracy, expect to pay for it. Precision isn't cheap.

Just to give you an example, I have 3 factory barrels for my CZ 455 Varmint.
22lr, 17hmr and 22wmr. The 22lr will shoot consistent 5/8 inch diameter holes at 50 yards
off a test rest using match ammo. Anything less and it spits flyers. The 17 hmr barrel
produces quarter sized groups at 50 yards with all ammo brands I tested, with odd flyers.
The surprise was the 22wmr, which I expected to be the sloppy one, shooting 1/2 inch holes
at 50 yards using Hornady 30 gr Vmax. Who knew a 22wmr could be that accurate? Not me.

Same stock and action with the Lilja 22lr in it, will shoot sub-moa, with match ammo.
Like I said, you want precision, it isn't cheap.

As to the ammo supply, well, ordered 4 bricks of Wolf ME last week.
Cost was 16 cents per round delivered to my front door, dropped off by UPS as I typed this.
There is still quality 22lr ammo available at a decent price, if you do the research.
Cheaper than 308, even if you reload.

 

[Metalhead0483]

Please post up a target board with multiple five round groups of .5 MOA (.25 inches) at 50 yards out of your savage.

That was my first thought as well...

 

[bobtodrick]

I'd also like to see the targetboard from the Savage shooting .75-1" at 100yds.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

having both the CZ455 varmint, and the MKII BV (heavy barrel) and F (sporter), the CZ is well worth the extra $ out of the box.

CZ has the savage beat (IMO) when it comes to nicer form, fit, and function. less finicky with ammo too. the ease of the barrel / caliber swapout is a definate plus for present or future upgrades.

feels, looks, and acts more like a centerfire than the savage. all you have to do is hold each other side by side, you'll know what i mean.

either the CZ or the MKII benefits from a trigger upgrade, so that's not a concern coming out of the box. but if it is a concern, the 18.00 yo dave kit is a no brainer. the price of a CZ + yo dave is about even with a mkii + rifle basix upgrade from the accutrigger.

performance wise from 25 yds to 200yds the CZ just out performs from the bench, and IMO is a better balanced rifle for positional shooting. both are nice don't get me wrong, but the CZ is just a cut above the savage no matter how you look at it and justifies the 100.00ish more pricetag if you have it.

 

[FailureToStart]

Great stuff. I've been leaning towards the CZ for a bunch of reasons - most of which have been listed here.

I don't care how it looks out of the box, I want to know how the MFer runs straight out of the box and how likely I am to blow it up before running through a case of Mini-Mags. If push comes to shove, I'm going to find the shorty mags and turn my M&P 15/22 into a clone of my OBR and pray it isn't the 2+MOA gun I think it is.

As long as its likely to hold 1MOA then I'm a happy camper.

Thanks for the input.

One of the major draws for the Savage was the threaded barrel (in the pitch I need) and a pic rail. I can ignore the pic rail part, but I'm going to struggle to overlook the threaded barrel. Oh wait, people can actually do that and the barrel is pretty easy to remove. HFS it looks like I've got some sort of direction in life.

 

[Goin'Hot]

As long as its likely to hold 1MOA then I'm a happy camper.

You have to be willing to try MULTIPLE types of ammo to get a 1 MOA or better rimfire. I was on the verge of selling my Quad but, I FINALLY found some ammo that it liked and would chamber as well. I can post groups of 1/2 MOA at 100 yards IF you take away one "flyer".

 

[skyesdad]

25 rounds at 50 yards 4positions good glass and good ammo hellva combo savage mk2 rws ammo

 

[Metalhead0483]

How big is that target?

 

[bobtodrick]

You have to be willing to try MULTIPLE types of ammo to get a 1 MOA or better rimfire. I was on the verge of selling my Quad but, I FINALLY found some ammo that it liked and would chamber as well. I can post groups of 1/2 MOA at 100 yards IF you take away one "flyer".

As well as rimfire I compete in ISSF Olympic style 10m air rifle.
I have yet to be in a competition where I get to not count 'the flyers'.
Sorry, I see to many people post pics of a 5 shot group...3 shots of which are touching, the other two 1/2" or more away and say..."see, discount those two and it's a half inch group".
No it isn't...it a 1.25" group!

 

[Spartan67]

I went to the range today with my MK II. At 200 yds, I got 20 rounds into a group 3"x4".


ALL shots counted!!

 

[hatidua]

I've owned both but no longer own either.

Out of the box:
-the factory trigger on either of them sucks. An aftermarket trigger helps tremendously on either option.
-the fit/finish on the CZ is way ahead of the Savage. The Savage is crude by comparison.
-accuracy, with each shooting its' favorite match ammo, were about even for me.

On numerous forums (not referring to anyone here), you'll read about "one hole groups" at 50 yards, with both rifles. Oddly, photos of these one-hole groups at 50 yards never seem to get posted...

 

[justin amateur]

4 inches at 200 yards, lemme see here....

1 moa at 200 yards is about a hair over 2 inches of arc
so your MK II is a 2 moa rifle at 200 yards.

That's actually better than I'm capable of with the factory barrel on my 455 American.

I can shoot a 1 hole group, but it's a big hole.
Takes an entire box of 50 to make it. ;^)

And I have to use the Lilja barrel to do it.

 

[Bunnypunter]

I'll try and hit the range this weekend or next and get some groups. Like I said, I got a good set of groups going but would occasionally get a flier or operator error. See original post. My point is that the gun is capable of doing this. I wish I would have saved the target from last week. Either it was a fluke day on the range or I'm not totally full of crap. I'll see what I cant to do to prove some of you almighty rimfire gods wrong about your assumptions. If not, I'll eat crow and move on.

Please post up a target board with multiple five round groups of .5 MOA (.25 inches) at 50 yards out of your savage.

 

[MPrimo]

I have had both ... still have the CZ. My Savage never performed the way I expected it to. My CZ has not disappointed from day one. Put a $20 Yo Dave trigger kit in the CZ and all problems are solved. If I had to recommend one, it would be CZ all he way.

 

[bm11]

I'll try and hit the range this weekend or next and get some groups. Like I said, I got a good set of groups going but would occasionally get a flier or operator error. See original post. My point is that the gun is capable of doing this. I wish I would have saved the target from last week. Either it was a fluke day on the range or I'm not totally full of crap. I'll see what I cant to do to prove some of you almighty rimfire gods wrong about your assumptions. If not, I'll eat crow and move on.

No rimfire god here, just a guy who shoots a bunch and has seen enough other shooters to have a general idea of what is likely and what isn't.

If you had a stock savage shooting half moa, I wanted to see it! I don't delve into rimfires as much as other rifles but I have been on a rimfire kick a bit lately, and know how special a half moa rimfire truly is. I only have seen one rifle that is close, and it is a very rare, expensive piece imported from Europe and even then I considered it to be a bit of a freak of nature.

Here are the four major definitions of "this rifle shoots half moa" that I observe on the internet.

1- a rifle that will, on a good day, print 6 groups of 5 and every single group is .5 moa or less. This is the strictest definition of a half moa rifle.
2- a rifle that will go to the range, and on a good day of shooting, will print 6 groups of 5 shots and the average for all 5 shot groups is half moa. This is the definition I tend to go with for the most part.

3- a rifle that will occaisionally shoot a half moa group. Ie- the 6 group average may be .7 moa but on that target board there are one or two groups measuring .5 moa or less, so the shooter considers the rifle to be .5 moa.

4- a rifle that sometimes shoots a group that 4 of the 5 shots is tight (half moa) and one shot opens it up. The shooter declairs it a "flier" and by that logic it doesn't count against the group. This is the only definition of a half moa rifle I have a serious issue with. Most often because the previous group was a shotgun pattern measuring 1.5", but the shooter gets lucky for four out of 5 shots on the next group, amd offers it as irrefutable proof of the shooting capability of the rifle. I have been reading a lot of semi auto precision rifle threads lately (I just bought a stainless LMT MWS,) and I ran into quite a few of these group pictures with a "flier" circled and labeled. In my opinion, if you fucked up a group, shoot another one. If you can't replicate it, well, your rifle doesn't really shoot that well.

In any case, I'm interested to see how that rifle shoots! And what ammo it takes to shoot it. The only reason I questioned you is because I have yet to see a consistent .5 moa rimfire at the price point of the savage. And because it didn't sound like you were shooting half moa ammo, to me.

-Bob

 

[Jig Stick]

My CZ452 Sil is very accurate out of the box. Alls I have done is work the trigger a little bit.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

It's not a matter of expectations, it's an exercise in pragmatism. Any given rifle in decent condition will shoot to a consistent accuracy capability, whatever that may be. The important issue is not how the rifle shoots but how the rifle and shooter will perform on a continuing basis. If the rifle does its part, any performance variations will be the result of the shooter's abilities on a given day, and that's the factor that really counts. Size, no; variation in size, yes.

Reliability, durability, and consistency are the key factors here, specific group sizes are just a number, and comparisons between rifles are like comparisons between apples and pears; interesting but irrelevant.

Practical sights, a consistent trigger, and good ergonomics are the issues that interest me. I know from experience that when my performance goes to Hell, it's not the gun. It may seem strange to find a slip-on recoil pad on a .22, but mine allows another inch of LOP, and that is a major ergonomic improvement for me, at 6' 5" height.

I use an old Savage MKIIF that compares most similarly today to the Stevens 300, except than mine has the grooved receiver that mounts 22 style rings directly, without bases. At 50yd, off the bench and rest, groups of practically any number can be covered with a quarter. I have no need for tighter groups than that as long as they remain consistent, and they have continued to do so in the 15 years or so since I bought it used for under $100.

I feel the way you do about expending irreplaceable ammo without compelling reasons right now, even down to and including my spamcan 7.62x54R steelcase Surplus stuff.

After reviewing my current meager supply of 22LR target ammo, I purchased a Gamo break-open .177 rifled spring piston pellet air rifle last week while on vacation in GA. Still have to shoot it; but if it's relatively true, it will be used as an interim trainer replacement for my Savage.

Fit, finish, and appearance are comparative. Next to my 3 Mosin-Nagant 91/30's, my Savage looks like a Browning, but I still wouldn't part with any of either.

Greg

 

[Metalhead0483]

That's well said Greg.

 

[jbell]

rimfire... it will keep you on your toes or just piss you off!

 

[SPAK]

I've got to say, I've owned 4 variations of Savage mark ii's and a 93 17hmr....... All 5 rifles had some pretty poor quality control. Fit and finish was on par with a 200.00-250.00 rifle....which is about what I paid for each of them at the time. Pretty dissapointing in that regard.

However, they all shot really really well out of the box. I have an FVSR .22LR where the barrel is out of line with the action. Enough that it's visible to the naked eye. It took 20 MOA in windage to bore sight that rifle. I sent it back to savage and they said it met their specs. To their credit they gave me an option. They said they would replace the rifle, however they test shot my crooked rifle at 100 yards with a printed .7MOA 5 shot test group. I know it's not statisically significant but the rifle continues to be a 1 MOA performer with wolf target and I'm happy with that.

That being said, I'm looking hard at the CZ's right now. I've handled them, never shot one but i agree that the fit and finish is way ahead of savage, but then again you will pay more for it...

 

[THE MGD]

Pic #1
CCI SS , from a ammo panel test (50yrds, suppressed: 22sparrow) clean bbl, avg group size, 6rnd group 0.43".

Pic #2
same rifle 350 yards shooting a 8" steel target, crappy group (due to crappy winds, you can see 1 grazed the top right) shooting RemGoldenBullets (RGB) estimated 6" group

rifle shoots tight and consistantly at 200.

rifle specs: Savage fvsr, dip 25moa base, falcon menace sope, leoupold pwr rings, kydex cheeck riser, silencerco 22sparrow, nylon washer (spacer for suppressor), generic bipod.
not "stock out of the box" but no "main" components changed (such as trigger barrel, etc) both above groups shot bench rested.
hope this helps...

*edit add: for those wanting a suppressor "sound" info:
as the operator it sounds like a "gas powered staple gun?" like a short burst of opening a 3 littler bottle
down range @ 100y it sounds like a laser sound effect. (medium pitched "du--"), @ 200y and beyound like air whizzing by, like an arrow might make.

 

[MosesTheTank]

My CZ455 is sick as hell after dumping a fortune into it. The Manners T4 is incredibly comfortable. It got MOA as it came from the factory, and with fairly inexpensive ammunition. It's just a really cool rifle that doubles as a trainer for my 6.5CM that is nearly identical. HOWEVER, if we're going to beat each other up over accuracy I invite you to one of our small bore matches (be it 50yds, 50m... out to 200 yds) and you will be very hard pressed to come close to a Master rated shooter with an iron sighted Anschutz. These groups often measure in mm. My many decades old Walther (that is worth maybe $700) simply blows away my CZ in the accuracy department. It's miles apart. So let's not get carried away with the accuracy of the 2 guns the OP asked about. I have lots of 22s, some stock, some worked over (as do many of y'all) so we all know what is realistic as for accuracy expectations.

Having said that, I love the CZ and think they are much nicer than the Savage. The metal finish is top notch compared to any factory gun. They easily accessorize (I have taken this one over the top). I have a worked over 77/22 that shoots a tad better, but it's not as much fun to shoot, especially from prone. But the CZ is heavier and that can make a difference if you're doing a bit of walking. If all I'm after is accuracy I'm not going to grab either of those rifles. Go with the CZ. That's my vote.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Ya'll have all heard me blather incessantly on this subject, I will try not to bore you with another lengthy diatribe.

You can buy a good or bad anything. I expect even Anschutz has made a dog or two over the years.

You get what you pay for in most instaces in this world. If you pay $300 for a rifle, you should get a $300 rifle. You will not get a $300 rifle that will outshoot an Anschutz. Now you may get a shooter with a Savage that outshoots a shooter with an Annie, but that is not what we are discussing.

Savage is a great value at their price point, no arguement here. The CZ is another great value at their price point. You will be able to see where your money went between the two, when you put them side by side, and accuracy test them. Most CZs show a slight accuracy advantage over most Savages in 22lr. I can't comment on the 17s and the WMRs because we do not allow those in our match. The accuracy gains from $300 to $550 are slight, from there to $1200 the gain is also very slight, but to some it is needed. It all depends on your application, ability, and a host of other factors, that make your purchase a personal decision based on your needs.

A Savage has now won our TSC match. The man that shot the winning score is a top notch shooter. We have altered the course several times to try and put the shooter back in the game and I read this result as a resounding success for our match, and a great effort by our match director, to make us all better shooters. It will certainly make the CZs and Annies "hunker down" in April. In a talk with my compadre after the March match I likened what he had done, to taking us from a Talladega atmosphere, where the top end rifles could run away from the pack, to a Bristol atmosphere. Now we are sitting bunched up on the track and you better be a driver, and think on your feet! I think it makes for a much more exciting race now, cause you are worried about every rifle on the line.

All that said, it all depends on what you will ask your rifle to do. If you are wanting a solid MOA rifle then you are fishing in the wrong pond. I won't tell you you can't find an exceptioanl example, cause you can. Its hard to find a true MOA Anschutz let alone a Savage or a CZ. Your chances of getting lucky will increase as you increase the amount of money you spend. No matter what you may have heard on the internet.

 

[FailureToStart]

Fantastic info so far, thanks a bunch!

Here is my "hard on" for inherent mechanical accuracy - I have... plans. I really want this set up as a 'trainer' that matches my R700 as closely as possible. I don't shoot often enough and sometimes I just need to get out and practice the fundamentals of pulling the trigger. The only range that I can really work with 'freely' is 100yd.

When I zero a gun, I believe my reticle needs to be centered in the mechanical accuracy of the weapon. I see folks all the time who hit finally get their shit on paper and just call it good even though its 8" away from their point of aim. If I have a 1/2MOA gun, I expect that round to impact within 1/4MoA of the point of aim every single time. It is pretty obvious when I'm screwing up with a rifle that accurate.

If I take my regular 4MOA AR out to the 100yd line, whats to say that that center punch isn't the result of a massive yank off to one side - or worse. An impact on the far left edge of the mechanical accuracy (2MOA left of intended point of aim) could actually be the result of a 4MOA left crank and that round actually impacted on the far right edge of the mechanical accuracy (2MOA right of ACTUAL point of aim). I don't have the brain function left for math in general, but trigger pull suckage that yields a 4MOA weapon shift is a pretty considerable amount of muzzle movement.

If I take a 3/4MOA rifle out and I'm consistently within that 3/4MOA then I'm just happy all the way around. Between my lousy shooting, the wind blowing the effing target around and all the other variables - I'm happy as a clam.

I won't fight a 2MOA gun as a stand-in rimfire bolt action trainer - there is shit for feedback as to whether the gun is ass or I am.

At this point its looking like a REAL good idea to pick up a base model CZ455 Varmint and Savage MkII just to see how they run. I'm out $250 on the Savage if it sucks and ~$450 on the CZ. That beats the hell out of jumping right into a "Precision Trainer" CZ and eating $900 on a big pile of suck if it ends up being a non-starter. If they don't work out I can just sell/trade them off or re-purpose them for something else.

If I can consistently get in around 1MOA then I'm happy.

Keep the commentary coming! The more info, the better!

 

[bobtodrick]

armorpl8chikn, you need to bore us at every opportunity ;-)
I truly feel for the new shooters who show up on this and other forums, asking what accuracy they can expect from their new Savage/CZ/Marlin, and read all the post from people claiming they shoot 1/2MOA all day long, with their eyes closed.
I know how discouraged I was when I purchased my 93FVSS a year or so ago and read all those posts...'cause my gun was shooting 2" at 100yds.
Must have been the gun, because I've competed in Olympic style 10m air rifle for years and know I'm a fair shooter.
Well, after reading a few posts (mostly on this forum) like yours...and noticing that a lot of the guys at the range who claimed their guns were 1MOA in the cafeteria were shooting worse than I on the range (the wind, bad day...always an excuse), the lightbulb went off...my gun is shooting well within specs.
So here I am a year later. I've done the obvious, scoping it with the best I can afford, doing some simple trigger work and making sure my torques are all good.
And I'm very happy with my 1.25/1.5MOA gun.
Because on the range I somehow manage to outshoot just about all those people who claim in the cafeteria that their gun shoots sub 1MOA.

 

[MosesTheTank]

^^^^ Truer words have never been spoken. If all these guns were 1/2 MOA out of the box, Yo Dave, Timney, Rifle Basix... would be all out of business. So would Anschutz, and Lilja, and... on and on. And I suspect the US would win every small bore competition because of all the amazing shooters and their Dick's bought Savages.

 

[FailureToStart]

Well, after reading a few posts (mostly on this forum) like yours...and noticing that a lot of the guys at the range who claimed their guns were 1MOA in the cafeteria were shooting worse than I on the range (the wind, bad day...always an excuse), the lightbulb went off...my gun is shooting well within specs.

Signal to noise ratio - and your post basically outlines the concept perfectly. 1.5MOA Isn't going to thrill me in the slightest, 2MOA? I might as well just throw scope on my M&P 15-22 - or just not drive an hour to the range in the first place. I'm being a Debbie Downer here - I mean at some level of accuracy, it is CLEARLY the shooter sucking. I'm trying to practice good fundamentals, not learn how to make good excuses. I'm going to try to find a 455 Varmint and FV-SR to try out. We'll see how it goes.

As a related side note - the factory Hogue OM stock that my R700 resides in is regarded as the biggest piece of shit in existence (it really is a dreadful stock) - and by God it will push your shots ALL OVER THE PLACE.... Yeah, ok so why does mine constantly hold 3/4moa as long as I'm not sucking? Hell my old 300WM had a trigger that you had to chain to a dump truck to get it to fire, the guy I sold it to checked the safety 3x before finally getting enough balls behind it to drop it... yeah no problems there either. It wasn't stellar, but it was still a 1MOA gun with certain types of ammo.

Seriously, thanks for some totally objective no bullshit information. I don't expect 1/2 minute, I don't expect 3/4 minute. Maybe I VASTLY over-estimate 22lr in general but I can't imagine it would be hard to mass produce a gun that is capable of holding 1MOA - especially if they are going to have a $900 'Precision Trainer" version of same. Time will hopefully tell all.

 

[bobtodrick]

You may be in for a bit of a rude awakening FailureToStart.
Check out some benchrest results. At 100yds .6 to .75" groups would be considered very good in a rimfire match, yet for any decent centerfire will do this without too much trouble.
As MosesTheTank says, a lot of very reputable barrel/trigger/accessory aftermarket companies would not be in existence if your average box stock .22 was consistently shooting 1MOA or less.
These a lot of threads here that overwhelmingly come to the same conclusion...1 to 1.25" is every good for rimfire.

 

[hahco]

hey now, my MkII will shoot a one hole group at 50 yds! I shot a 50 rnd box of ammo (CCI SV) through it one day at the same target spot sticky. Got one ragged hole .... about 2" around, maybe a little less. I've shot much tinier groups with it at 50, but really with a factory rifle shooting ammo that's not the most expensive match stuff, it's gonna be a function of how many shots you're taking. The more shots, the more dispersion you will see. like folks on here are saying, you might get 3 in one hole, then 2 more that are a half inch off. keep adding shots to the group and the "flyers" will usually keep it spreading up to a point. I've realized that some of the shots I thought were "flyers" aren't really flyers at all.

But still, I have waylaid all sorts of critters with that MKII at 50-75 yds. It's consistent, even if it isn't .5 MOA consistent. I've got absolute confidence in it.

For 100 yd shooting, I've got a remmy 504T HB. If I use that gun, and match ammo, and the wind isn't blowing, I can put a LOT of shots, although not 50, within a 1.5" circular(ish) area at 100.

As far as CZ vs. Savage ... I've got both and they both shoot. the CZ is definitely sturdier construction, but function-wise the MkII does great work.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I will try to say this one more time. I pitch the balls, but you have to catch them.

Ain't no CONSISTENTLY 1MOA 22lr made by CZ or Savage unless you get hell lucky, and/or spend a shit ton of money on it. Hell my Annie ain't "consistent" MOA and those rifles are undisputed Olympic grade. They have an Olympic pricetag too.

I had a CZ452V, after some work it was a fantastic trainer, mimicking very closely my R700. It was not as accurate as my Annie by any stretch. Don't run yourself up on a stump by obsessing over MOA accuracy. Your trainer does not have to directly match your centerfire accuracy wise. If it did I would still be shopping and my trainer is a $1200 MPR with a $1600 MK4 sitting on top. You can't buy much better than that.

My rifle will often shoot under .75MOA with the lot of Center X I now have in my possession. When that ammo is gone I will be forced to roll the bones again and hoping I don't crap out.

You are mostly at the mercy of ammo makers. You may find some great ammo and buy some more of the same make and brand to find its quite frankly turned from sugar to shit. Lot numbers can make or break your ammo, it is often not just a factor, but THE factor. Come shoot with us at TSC and almost every match someone will lament the loss of the phenominal Federal 922A "magic lot". It won lots of matches, but when that lot was gone the party was over. Few even touch the stuff now.

It is an especially bad time to tune up a 22lr right now, due to ammo availability in general. If you find a great lot right now, chances are it would be gone before you could rebuy in a large portion. IF you find a great lot you better buy an obscene amount, cause when that is gone you will likely start at square one again. I have learned more about 22's in the last 3 years than I ever thought possible.Before that time my concern was hunting accuracy, a quality almost anny modern rimfire delivers with ease. As some one already said, it is very frustrating. Ammo, ammo,ammo. It is an important key to accuracy. The cheaper you try to shoot, the more frustration you will encounter, if your main goal is mechanical accuracy.

If your goal is 1Moa dot drills at 100yds you MAY be disappointed with a Savage or a CZ and likely even an Anschutz. Like I said, there are always exceptions and you may get lucky. If you are that lucky I recommend finding a good poker game in your area.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Most importantly have fun.

 

[Quarter Horse]

We should keep in mind that regardless of the quality of rifle and/or ammunition the vast majority of the "trainers" we use are simply harder to shoot to their maximum potential. The heaviest Savage I could find is listed at 7.8lbs. The heaviest CZ was the Tacticool at 7.4lbs. The reason we use quality triggers and benchrest shooters use rests as heavy as a VW is to prevent movement of the rifle during firing. Light rifles also respond to differences in the shooters position to a greater degree. Most of us are shooting on outdoor ranges. Even the best .22 ammo is slow and fires a light bullet with a lousy BC. Consequently, the round is affected to a much greater degree by environmentals and this makes it much harder for a MOA system at 50yds. to shoot MOA at 100yds.

My trainer is a Browning 52C Sporter reissue. The rifle weighs 8lb.7oz. with rings, bases and scope. With it's preferred ammo it is consistently sub-MOA at 50yds. but only occaisonally will it produce a MOA group at a 100yds.

I'm with chikn. If you're shooting off a bipod at a 100yds. and you're getting MOA performance you're both good and lucky.

 

[jeffersonv]

I have a Savage TR as my 22 trainer.
I think I would rather have a CZ if it worked out OK.

That being said, my Savage TR suits it's purpose as a trainer just fine.

 

[Quarter Horse]

I should add get your calipers out and use them. The difference between 1.25" grp. and a .75 grp. is 40%.

 

[FailureToStart]

I will try to say this one more time. I pitch the balls, but you have to catch them.

I can be a bit slow at times. I also entirely missed the last paragraph in your first post.

I'm just used to sub minute guns right out of the box (2x R700, LaRue OBR), and I think I grossly over-estimated the inherent accuracy potential of .22LR. I've got a half a case of CCI Mini-Mags and while they aren't exactly match grade, they aren't total shit either. I'd hoped to get in under a 1MOA, with 1.5MOA as a max. As you said, I may be fishing in the entirely wrong pond. IF I can find either of these guns, I'm going to scoop em up and see how they do. If I'm happy with it then rock on. If not, I've got a handy squirrel gun or something that can be sold off pretty easily.

My only rimfire experience so far involves an M&P 15/22 which is set up and shot like my regular 16" AR with an Aimpoint. Good hits and speed are measured, not precision. Its been a while since I put a zero through it but I chalked up any inaccuracy to aiming with a 4MOA dot and a firearm that wasn't built to be seriously accurate. IIRC it was right on par with my 16' AR @ 50yd.

MOA is MOA and I could probably warm up to the idea of setting up for 50yd @ $0.06/rd rather than 100yd @ $1.35/rd. I know I can't replace either of them, but I've got a comfortable level of .22LR left over and I'm REAL low on .308.

Thanks a bunch for all the help and information. Rimfire is a whole new world to me.

Hopefully I'll get lucky.

 

[bobtodrick]

FailureToStrart...just keep an open mind.
I also have a .22 AR, and like you with a good red dot at 50 yds it shoots as well as a .223, especially when I'm shooting fast.
But comparing my .22WMR and my Remington .308 at 100 yds is pretty depressing.
But...if you do some research with ballistics you'll find that the .22LR is comparable to shooting the .308 at 500yds (wind, bullet drop, etc) so it is still a very useful tool for sharpening your skills.
What throws people off are a couple of things, most importantly (IMO) are production consistence (way more unexplained flyers with rimfire) and wind. A 5-10mph breeze will open up a .22LR group by 1/2 at 100 yds...nothing to consider with a centerfire.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Covering a .22lr group with a quarter at 50yd equates to just about 1.5MOA. We can find better, but that necessitates a detour from practical riflery into precision riflery, and makes ammunition variances assume far too much importance. That's neither necessary nor productive

With a 1.5MOA standard, you still have to do things right, and you can definitely tell when you aren't. Demanding more from the basic implement simply increases cost without adding anything to the benefit side of the equation.

That violates my own personal sense of frugal practicality.

Greg

 

[sonicdmb]

the brno no2/cz452 is as far as I know the most sold bolt action 22lr there is only the 1022 compares for numbers sold add a cheap trigger kit and find the brand of ammo it likes and they go on for ever, mines older than me and will shoot 1/2" @ 50yds over here they hold their money well if anything the brno no2 is better thought of, better build quality made the mistake of swapping one for a browning hi-power. The one I have now is not for sale full stop.

 

[squirrelsniper]

It's been quite a while (time gets away from you sometimes) since I posted here on the Hide, but here goes...

I've owned a lot Savage Mark IIs and a bunch of CZs (mostly 452s). I seriously don't have a clue at the actual number of each that I've owned, but I'm not talking about just one or two here. So I think I've been around them enough to form a few valid observations. I've also been doing the "22 trainer" thing since around 1999, which was way back when "tactical" accessories for 22s were basically one-off hand-made pieces and very few people were even interested in using a 22LR for serious practice. So again, I've had time to try out some things and learn a little.

First, CZs are of a higher build quality, and the price for comparable models between the two brands reflects that. The CZ simply has a better fit and finish as well as the small parts (mags, bottom metal, etc) being clearly better made. The Savages are okay and I continue to buy them, but realize the price difference between the brands is there for a reason.

As with any factory rifle, accuracy can be hit or miss, but on average the CZs typically shoot just a bit better. Most of the time both brands will shoot between .5" and .75" 5-shot groups at 50yds with mid-grade ($8-$12) match ammo. Before you wonder if either brand is worthwhile, keep in mind I'm talking about real-world averages over several groups, not internet talk about the one or two good groups a particular rifle shot at some point in time. Every now and then you get lucky and end up with a rifle that will average around .5" at 50yds with $5 a box ammo, but don't buy either brand with that kind of expectation up front.

I've never had a CZ that wouldn't do at least .75" at 50yds with high-end ammo. But, I have had one Savage Mark II that in my opinion was just a lemon in terms of accuracy, and would barely get under 1" at 50yds with its favorite ammo. That might be acceptable for some people and I certainly don't expect miracles from factory rifles, but if I pay $400 for a 22LR and feed it $15 a box match ammo I do expect better than 1" groups at 50yds. The bore had serious tool marks a bit ahead of the chamber and in my opinion should have never left the factory that way regardless of price. So I'd have to give the edge to CZ for quality control as I've never had an actual lemon, yet.

Both rifles are popular so there's several aftermarket parts available for both brands. I'd call it even in that regard with one exception; since CZ's new 455 uses interchangeable barrels, there is an aftermarket option there. The Mark II uses the old press-fit and pin method of barrel mounting, and while they can be changed, it requires actual gunsmithing that's far beyond what the average person can do at home.

If price isn't a major factor, I'd personally prefer a CZ 455 over the Mark II. That said, I continue to buy and shoot both brands, with two of my Mark II's sitting about three feet away as I type.

And to add a bit... all the talk you see on the internet about shooting sub-1" groups at 100yds with a 22LR is mostly that, just talk. That's not to say some rifles and shooters don't do it, but I'm saying that very, very few rifle/ammo/shooter combinations are capable of doing that on a consistent basis. 1.25"-1.5" 5-shot groups is a more realistic view, and to do that group after group requires a good rifle/ammo combo and a shooter who can read the wind.

 

[bobtodrick]

I had one of the variable brought home emphatically this weekend.
I've always shot 5 shot groups...everything you read says (and their is scientific proof) that 5 shots gives a far better indication than 3. And 10 is better than 5...all the way up to about 30 shots at which point all the different variables (environmental/gun/shooter) become null.
Well...my Savage 93FVSS, after some work and a good scope (1.5x the price of the gun) I've got it shooting within 1.5 inches...2" if there is any wind.
I tried some 3 shot groups and damned if my gun wasn't shooting 1-1.25" groups...knocked a good 1/4" off the group sizes.
Got me wondering how many of the people who claim their gun is a solid 1MOA shooter are only shooting 3 shot groups...which isn't considered to be accurate by anyone who legitimately purports to be knowledgeable in precision shooting.
Anyhow...after my little experiment...my gun is still a 1.5" shooter...2" in the wind.
Not 1MOA.

 

[FailureToStart]

More great info!

Regarding accuracy and rounds/group: I start at 5 and work my way up depending on what I'm doing. I also factor in things like shifts from POA and I average over several groups. I was/am getting a little wrapped around the axle with all of this.

Lets say the gun is a 2MOA gun. I know in my head that I could have a 4MOA variance in POA and still technically maintain a 2MOA group. To counter that, I have to realize that an average is an average and with enough rounds on target I'll get a pretty clear indication as to what exactly is going on. I know when I'm working my bolt gun correctly, and I'll eventually get there with one of these things.

Thanks for being patient with me by the way, I can get a little wrapped around the axle at times.

 

[p5200]

The only 22LR rifle I own any more is my Anschutz 1710 d hb. I've owned a few CZs in 22LR that for the money, I thought were very good shooters. The only distance I've ever shot with my rimfires though, was 50yds. so I can't comment on any 100yd. groups from any of them.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Keep it up APC... we will get this board turned around eventually! Dang it... I really need to make a match out there.

+1 on the rarity of 1" 5-shot group 100 yard shooters/rimfires
+1 on the average CZ having a slight edge on the average Savage
+1 on the internet shooters BS factor
+1 on verified multiple group results

If you "really" want your "trainer" as close as possible to your 700 there is only one choice... a 40XB. Because it is a 700 footprint so 700 stocks, triggers and optics base(s) are compatible. Then you'll need to send your rifle to Black Ops for a repeater conversion... now your cost is 10X the CZ though. I followed this path including a Jewell HVR trigger and AICS (still haven't had the courage to send it out for the repeater conversion) and don't regret it. The muscle memory learned from thousands of "expensive" match RWS R50 is very evident when I decide its time to burn some of my prized Black Hills Match 175 gr!

Don't give up on chasing the potential of the lowly .22LR though! 1.5-2" at 100 is still a great rifle and teaches you everything you want to learn as long as the consistancy is there. Plus a 2" rifle is still very much dependable for those "live" target encounters.

Another thing to do is to document your groups for the long haul just like you would with your centerfire. I'm now up close to 1500 documented groups in all types of weather conditions and the average is now at 1.022" at 100. I've had plenty of 5-group targets (read five 5-shot groups on one target) that came in at .8 or so - but that is the exception, not the rule. My rifle is still just over a 1 MOA shooter.

 

[justin amateur]

+1 on the rarity of 1" 5-shot group 100 yard shooters/rimfires
+1 on the average CZ having a slight edge on the average Savage
+1 on the internet shooters BS factor
+1 on verified multiple group results

Too true on all of the above.
The best thing about the 455 is the ability to improve it's accuracy
on your own with a minimum of specialty tools. Pillaring, bedding,
barrel shimming are all basic diy improvements with minimal costs.
But even that won't help a hammer forged factory barrel that isn't up to spec.
Here's a target from the factory barrel, 50 yards, Wolf ME

The factory barrel meets the CZ standard of accuracy
needed to be put in the box and shipped, but is nowhere near
what can be obtained with a custom aftermarket barrel.
Same stock and action with the Lilja barrel, 100 yards, Wolf ME

And those results are from a less than skilled bench shooter.
In the hands of someone who actually knows what they're doing
I'd expect much better groupings. I can't read wind worth a damn.

 

[hatidua]

Of the non-Annie guns that folks are discussing, if you really want to dress up a rimfire to your specs with stock/scope/rail/Etc., within the range of rifles accessible to the common man, get a Sako Quad action/barrel (the factory synthetic stock belongs in the dumpster behind the local supermarket). I've bought/sold the rest and the Quad remains....with the factory barrel, -it's that good.