I looked pretty briefly at the Sako offering (had never heard of them prior to this adventure) but felt they were outside my price range with where I'm looking to go. I will see if I can get some harder pricing information and possibly availability. As of now, all of these things are unobtanium (SHOCKED!) through my normal supply routes.
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Info request: Out of the box accuracy - CZ455 vs Savage Mk II
- Thread starter FailureToStart
- Start date
I looked pretty briefly at the Sako offering (had never heard of them prior to this adventure) but felt they were outside my price range with where I'm looking to go. I will see if I can get some harder pricing information and possibly availability. As of now, all of these things are unobtanium (SHOCKED!) through my normal supply routes.
Take Your Pick
I have several 22's, and between family and friends I have trigger time with about a dozen of them. Between Savage Mark II's, Marlin, and CZ as far as out of the box accuracy you can pretty much take your pick. On average I've seen about 1.5 MOA between them. The best of the group I have at 100 yards is a Savage FV with a 20" barrel. But it's still averaging just over MOA. I don't own the CZ but have had some trigger time with it, and it didn't perform any better for me.
The Savage FV with 20" barrel does outperform my favorite Savage just by a bit. I have a FVSR with 16" threaded barrel with a custom stock. It shoots just over MOA with some lucky groups here and there under MOA. At 300 yards the FVSR needs 43 1/2 MOA where the FV 20" needs only 41 MOA to get there. There isn't much noticeable difference at 300 in group size between the two.
I have a 10/22 that will center a quarter at 25 yards consistently. But at 100 yards it averages 1.5 or more.
The Savage FV with 20" barrel is the least finicky with ammo. It shoots pretty consistent with nearly every brand, with only changes to elevation between different velocity ammo. Obviously it has a noticeable difference with match ammo, but we don't play with that much these days.
I have several 22's, and between family and friends I have trigger time with about a dozen of them. Between Savage Mark II's, Marlin, and CZ as far as out of the box accuracy you can pretty much take your pick. On average I've seen about 1.5 MOA between them. The best of the group I have at 100 yards is a Savage FV with a 20" barrel. But it's still averaging just over MOA. I don't own the CZ but have had some trigger time with it, and it didn't perform any better for me.
The Savage FV with 20" barrel does outperform my favorite Savage just by a bit. I have a FVSR with 16" threaded barrel with a custom stock. It shoots just over MOA with some lucky groups here and there under MOA. At 300 yards the FVSR needs 43 1/2 MOA where the FV 20" needs only 41 MOA to get there. There isn't much noticeable difference at 300 in group size between the two.
I have a 10/22 that will center a quarter at 25 yards consistently. But at 100 yards it averages 1.5 or more.
The Savage FV with 20" barrel is the least finicky with ammo. It shoots pretty consistent with nearly every brand, with only changes to elevation between different velocity ammo. Obviously it has a noticeable difference with match ammo, but we don't play with that much these days.
Attachments
Well I finally found one - a CZ455 Precision Trainer.
So much for a compare/contrast. I'm just going in deep and I'll see how it plays out.
Thanks anyway for all the help. The only Mk2s I could find were like super base model with noodle barrels and whatnot so I decided to pass.
So much for a compare/contrast. I'm just going in deep and I'll see how it plays out.
Thanks anyway for all the help. The only Mk2s I could find were like super base model with noodle barrels and whatnot so I decided to pass.
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Im really not understanding why a a rim fire trainer is so popular then. The reason is generally to save money on ammo but my when your shooting 'good quality' ammo your paying almost exactly what what you would pay to reload a round of 223. And then you add the fact that even paying that much for ammo, your still not guaranteed submit accuracy, it makes the case for a 22 trainer seem desperate at best.
A frustrating day at the range today.
Shot six 5 shot groups (100m) and four of them were an inch or slightly under (Savage 93FVSS .22WMR with 6x20 Hawke Tactical Scope).
Two at about 1.5"
The frustrating part is knowing that I will likely not see a day that consistently good for months ;-(
Shot six 5 shot groups (100m) and four of them were an inch or slightly under (Savage 93FVSS .22WMR with 6x20 Hawke Tactical Scope).
Two at about 1.5"
The frustrating part is knowing that I will likely not see a day that consistently good for months ;-(
I was able to finger some Savage Mk2s at local gun stores as I mentioned but had never even seen a CZ rifle of any kind. Talk about a leap of faith to pick up the Precision Trainer sight unseen.
First impression: Wow.
I hate the 'fit and finish' BS but the CZ makes the Savage look like a cheap piece of shit. I'm sure the Savage is a fine rifle, but the CZ is without a doubt where I want to be. It is a well designed and well made piece of equipment for sure. I adjusted the trigger down a bit and find it to be more than acceptable as is. I've got some stuff on the way from DIP (Mag well & Rail) and a Primary Arms FFP scope as a trial. I went with a cheaper scope so I could have some funds available for other areas if the accuracy isn't quite where I want it. I've got some better scopes (or other rifles) on hand to see if any accuracy issues are scope related.
I started to research pillaring/bedding the stock and ran into the normal issues with notching the front pillar. Bonus points to the Precision Trainer: It already has a front pillar from the factory.
Thanks again for all the tips and info. I'll get some pics and a range report up ASAP.
FailuretoStart you made the right move man. If I were to do it over again I'd probably go precision trainer from the start but now because I hit the wood lottery on my 455 varmint I'm having a very hard time replacing it with a manners. I've said the same thing about the savage and 452/455...I sold my 2 savage rimfires after I got my first cz because they felt like toys in comparison. Needless to say my cz's don't seem to be more accurate though.
Hopefully your Primary arms scope works out. I have their 4-14 FFP scope on my cz now. Seems to hold zero and track ok but the turrets are complete ass. Expected for sub 200 bucks though I guess.
Hopefully your Primary arms scope works out. I have their 4-14 FFP scope on my cz now. Seems to hold zero and track ok but the turrets are complete ass. Expected for sub 200 bucks though I guess.
I bought a CZ 455 PT last fall to use as a trainer and to have something recoil free to shoot while recovering from shoulder surgery.
I have only had it out three times and was a little discouraged with the accuracy. Last time out I tried some Federal Premium HV Match and some SK High Velocity ammo. Both shot a good bit better than the other things I had tried so far. Only problem is that I only have a few boxes of each and who knows when there will be more. I would really like to have a couple bricks of the SK High Velocity.
I may eventually buy a Lilja barrel but not until I try a few more things with what I have.
I do think it is worthwhile to use as a trainer as is even though the accuracy is not really what I had hoped for and ammo is getting scarce. (I have a 5 or 6 thousand rounds of 22lr ammo even if it is not what is shooting best in my rifle).
1. Ammo is still cheaper than my 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor handloads.
2. I am able to practice the basics with no recoil and can usually see if I pull a shot.
3. I am shooting without adding to the round count on my centerfire barrels and extending the time till they will have to be rebarreled.
Here are targets from the few times I have had it out.
Rifle
I didn't put measurements on the targets. The grids are one inch so you can get a pretty good idea. 10 rounds in each group
50 Yards standard velocity
50 Yards High velocity
100 yards Standard velocity
100 Yard High velocity
I have only had it out three times and was a little discouraged with the accuracy. Last time out I tried some Federal Premium HV Match and some SK High Velocity ammo. Both shot a good bit better than the other things I had tried so far. Only problem is that I only have a few boxes of each and who knows when there will be more. I would really like to have a couple bricks of the SK High Velocity.
I may eventually buy a Lilja barrel but not until I try a few more things with what I have.
I do think it is worthwhile to use as a trainer as is even though the accuracy is not really what I had hoped for and ammo is getting scarce. (I have a 5 or 6 thousand rounds of 22lr ammo even if it is not what is shooting best in my rifle).
1. Ammo is still cheaper than my 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor handloads.
2. I am able to practice the basics with no recoil and can usually see if I pull a shot.
3. I am shooting without adding to the round count on my centerfire barrels and extending the time till they will have to be rebarreled.
Here are targets from the few times I have had it out.
Rifle
I didn't put measurements on the targets. The grids are one inch so you can get a pretty good idea. 10 rounds in each group
50 Yards standard velocity
50 Yards High velocity
100 yards Standard velocity
100 Yard High velocity
My CZ 452 Varmint in a Boyd's tacit cool stock. Keeps me entertained at the 50 yard range.
Lately I've been on a buying frenzy for Norinco JW-15's. They ate a clone of the BRNO/CZ action and can often be found for less than $200 yet they are more accurate than the current crop of CZ455's in my opinion.
Lately I've been on a buying frenzy for Norinco JW-15's. They ate a clone of the BRNO/CZ action and can often be found for less than $200 yet they are more accurate than the current crop of CZ455's in my opinion.
Something to remember about hammer forged assembly line production barrels,
according to several knowledgeable gunsmiths, it'll take approximately 2 bricks of 22lr
down the bore, before the rifling becomes polished enough to display it's true capabilities.
I picked up a 455 Varmint 22lr barrel earlier this year, and last week it stopped throwing fliers.
Checked my shooting log, I'd run 16 boxes (800 rounds) downrange through this barrel at this point.
The first 30 rounds of the morning were typical, with a flyer every 3rd or 4th shot, then the next 20
started impacting within 1/4 inch of poa. Didn't think much about it until the next box of ammo
when I realized what was happening. The next 35 rounds were equally as tight, so I sent the remaining
15 shots into a single bullseye. The group can be covered in it's entirety with a nickle. From bipod and bag
off an old wood bench in a 10-15 mph crosswind, it surprised the heck out of me, until I remembered the
2 brick rule. it appears the 1k theory holds water, worked for me.
And for those who prefer the dime reference, same image with minor addition.
according to several knowledgeable gunsmiths, it'll take approximately 2 bricks of 22lr
down the bore, before the rifling becomes polished enough to display it's true capabilities.
I picked up a 455 Varmint 22lr barrel earlier this year, and last week it stopped throwing fliers.
Checked my shooting log, I'd run 16 boxes (800 rounds) downrange through this barrel at this point.
The first 30 rounds of the morning were typical, with a flyer every 3rd or 4th shot, then the next 20
started impacting within 1/4 inch of poa. Didn't think much about it until the next box of ammo
when I realized what was happening. The next 35 rounds were equally as tight, so I sent the remaining
15 shots into a single bullseye. The group can be covered in it's entirety with a nickle. From bipod and bag
off an old wood bench in a 10-15 mph crosswind, it surprised the heck out of me, until I remembered the
2 brick rule. it appears the 1k theory holds water, worked for me.
And for those who prefer the dime reference, same image with minor addition.
Sounds like a good excuse for me to get out and burn some ammo.
Good shooting on that group by the way.
These were all shot at 100 yards. The circles have 5 shots each, with US penny for scale. The grid target has 10 shots, and you can see the first shot flyer waay out of the group the rest of the 9 made. Again, US penny for scale. The 9 shot group was my first group after getting zero from 50 yards, took a smoke break and hit the can and came back. Rifle is a Savage BTV (pre-E receiver) w/ Simmons WTC 6.5-20x50AO on it. Shot from bags front and rear. Each target is linked to a very high res version. Think that I need to keep using grid type targets - the big empty circle, while great for irons at 50, is hard to aim consistently on with a scope. Ammo was SK "Magazine", bulk pack stuff that is really Wolf/SK/Lapua that didn't meet QC specs
Another thing to consider is the pure mechanical accuracy. Of course, to truly test this you'll need super accurate measuring devices, a windless tunnel to shoot in, a true vise lock for the rifle, etc. I *know* my Savage can shoot better than I do - I see it each time at the range after I start getting tired, or the wind picks up, or I start flinching due to the guy shooting the 438 boomenlouderkickenharder next to me and my groups start opening up. Next trip, with no barrel cleaning, starting physically and mentally fresh, and it is back to small(er) groups.
This is my first post on a rimfire forum thread as I normally stick with centrefire stuff.
This is an interesting thread but ultimately these discussions usually miss the point. I've had a Savage Mk.II BV since 2000ish (pre accutrigger). I may have got lucky but it's a tack driver of a field rifle and has seen about 7500 gophers (Richardson's ground squirrels) head south so has paid for itself several times over (50 Richardson Ground Squirrels equals 1 cow worth of grass - do the math).
I can't seem to get it out of Dad's hands now days so I'm going to get a TRR-SR for myself.
Build quality - good enough and I enjoy like the Savage accuracy/price ratio, in my experience better than most. Occasional dog but mostly very good shooters. I love CZs too but my buddy shoots a CZ so there'd be no competition shooting gophers if we both had one.
Accuracy - the Unique I shot at University was the best 0.22 I've ever fired. Consistent 98+ on a biathalon 10-bull and I'm not a great shot by competition standards. Neither the Savage or CZ will compete with the Uniqwalthchuz of the world, different class altogether. Everyone likes to hype up their favourite rifle but it's usually BS unless they have the trophies to back it up.
My 30-06 112 FVSS with Falcon 4-14x44 glass consistently prints 5/8" at 130yards with Federal hunting loads. I'm building a custom Model 10 tactical in Creedmoor that will likely be better than the 112 at 1000 yards. Neither will touch a benchrest rifle. Both will be better for whitetails/mulies/moose.
Too much apples to watermelon comparision. Savage and CZ tacticool rimfires are just good field rifles. Fun on the range too but a long way from being target rifles.
Buy one, find some consistent ammo and shoot a lot. Once broken in, the Savage will lead in and get properly consistent after >250 rounds (post clean) although it'll be pretty close after 100+. Clean with a lead solvent and you're starting over (I only use a solvent for a full clean every 2500 or so). Then do the real comparison of tactical training rifles:
1. Patrol through 5km of rough terrain by night with a Savage. Crawl the last 500m into a hide. Wait for daylight.
2. Shoot one shot into the kill zone of a squirrel at 100m.
3. Reverse #1.
Then do the same with the CZ.
What's the difference? In my case, my drag bag will have got a bit more wear, my Savage would have hit the target and my wife would still think I'm nuts. I'll have had a good time and my ghillie would have some fresh sweat in it.
I'll just add my view on price. The Savage BV has been noticably more accurate than anything else at the same price but, as mentioned before, I could have been lucky. I've only ever found target rifles more accurate but I've not tried everything out there and my buddy's BRNO is close.
My advice: forget accuracy comparisons between the CZ & Savage, they won't be consistently different enough to notice. Buy the one you like, put on the rail & scope you like and enjoy it. If you want target rifle accuracy get a Unique, Anschutz, Walther etc or you'll just be disappointed. Even then, you'll get 100 opinions for every option on which is best and opinions are like arses, everyone's got one.
NOTE: Savage Mk.II magazines are exactly the same as the original Lakefield pattern they came from. Expect them to wear out between 1000 and 2000 rds. If you start to get feed problems with the bullet hitting the top lip of the chamber, the magazine is done. They're cheap enough so you can throw them away and get new ones but if you're really budget minded it is possible to re-work the lips and get another reliable 1000 rds or so out of one. I've done both over the years.
This is an interesting thread but ultimately these discussions usually miss the point. I've had a Savage Mk.II BV since 2000ish (pre accutrigger). I may have got lucky but it's a tack driver of a field rifle and has seen about 7500 gophers (Richardson's ground squirrels) head south so has paid for itself several times over (50 Richardson Ground Squirrels equals 1 cow worth of grass - do the math).
I can't seem to get it out of Dad's hands now days so I'm going to get a TRR-SR for myself.
Build quality - good enough and I enjoy like the Savage accuracy/price ratio, in my experience better than most. Occasional dog but mostly very good shooters. I love CZs too but my buddy shoots a CZ so there'd be no competition shooting gophers if we both had one.
Accuracy - the Unique I shot at University was the best 0.22 I've ever fired. Consistent 98+ on a biathalon 10-bull and I'm not a great shot by competition standards. Neither the Savage or CZ will compete with the Uniqwalthchuz of the world, different class altogether. Everyone likes to hype up their favourite rifle but it's usually BS unless they have the trophies to back it up.
My 30-06 112 FVSS with Falcon 4-14x44 glass consistently prints 5/8" at 130yards with Federal hunting loads. I'm building a custom Model 10 tactical in Creedmoor that will likely be better than the 112 at 1000 yards. Neither will touch a benchrest rifle. Both will be better for whitetails/mulies/moose.
Too much apples to watermelon comparision. Savage and CZ tacticool rimfires are just good field rifles. Fun on the range too but a long way from being target rifles.
Buy one, find some consistent ammo and shoot a lot. Once broken in, the Savage will lead in and get properly consistent after >250 rounds (post clean) although it'll be pretty close after 100+. Clean with a lead solvent and you're starting over (I only use a solvent for a full clean every 2500 or so). Then do the real comparison of tactical training rifles:
1. Patrol through 5km of rough terrain by night with a Savage. Crawl the last 500m into a hide. Wait for daylight.
2. Shoot one shot into the kill zone of a squirrel at 100m.
3. Reverse #1.
Then do the same with the CZ.
What's the difference? In my case, my drag bag will have got a bit more wear, my Savage would have hit the target and my wife would still think I'm nuts. I'll have had a good time and my ghillie would have some fresh sweat in it.
I'll just add my view on price. The Savage BV has been noticably more accurate than anything else at the same price but, as mentioned before, I could have been lucky. I've only ever found target rifles more accurate but I've not tried everything out there and my buddy's BRNO is close.
My advice: forget accuracy comparisons between the CZ & Savage, they won't be consistently different enough to notice. Buy the one you like, put on the rail & scope you like and enjoy it. If you want target rifle accuracy get a Unique, Anschutz, Walther etc or you'll just be disappointed. Even then, you'll get 100 opinions for every option on which is best and opinions are like arses, everyone's got one.
NOTE: Savage Mk.II magazines are exactly the same as the original Lakefield pattern they came from. Expect them to wear out between 1000 and 2000 rds. If you start to get feed problems with the bullet hitting the top lip of the chamber, the magazine is done. They're cheap enough so you can throw them away and get new ones but if you're really budget minded it is possible to re-work the lips and get another reliable 1000 rds or so out of one. I've done both over the years.
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I've gotted lucky last sunday, best group was 0,75" at 100m, but the rest seems very inconsistent. Ranging from 1" to more like 3".
I'm at 625 round down the tube right now. but I'm curious to see what will happen the next 500 or so. Your post gave me an excuses to burn through some of the cheaper stuff a bit faster.
This is pretty common. I was lucky and my BV settled with only about 500 rds but 800-1000 was common for bedding in our club target rifles years ago. You'll find that when it settles it'll catch you by surprise, kinda like Justin found. I'm now sitting at 9000ish down the tube and she's like a well oiled sewing machine.
Single hole at any range, it's only the number of rounds that varies
.Very interesting regarding 'breaking in'. Is this with lead projectiles? Jacketed? Make a difference? Answering my own questions: Shoot the fucker and find out!
Anyway DIP 25MOA rail in, on and absolutely fantastic. DIP Mag Well.... If I had to do it over again I'd probably hang onto the original until I broke it. As soon as the scope gets here I'll measure for rings and get some headed this way. HOPEFULLY I can borrow some from another rifle and just put the new ones on it when they get here. I could really go for some range time later this week.
Anyway DIP 25MOA rail in, on and absolutely fantastic. DIP Mag Well.... If I had to do it over again I'd probably hang onto the original until I broke it. As soon as the scope gets here I'll measure for rings and get some headed this way. HOPEFULLY I can borrow some from another rifle and just put the new ones on it when they get here. I could really go for some range time later this week.
I don't think that the finish of the ammo is the determining factor in the break-in.
More than likely it's the fine grit produced by the primer/powder that acts as the
polishing agent. It's a very small amount being pressed between the bullet and the rifling
as each round travels the length of the barrel. Between the polishing of the rifling
and the filling of the minor scratches and imperfections left by the hammer forging,
it makes sense that it takes a thousand rounds before the barrel starts to shoot accurately.
More than likely it's the fine grit produced by the primer/powder that acts as the
polishing agent. It's a very small amount being pressed between the bullet and the rifling
as each round travels the length of the barrel. Between the polishing of the rifling
and the filling of the minor scratches and imperfections left by the hammer forging,
it makes sense that it takes a thousand rounds before the barrel starts to shoot accurately.
Wow fellas, fantastic thread
I've read through it in it's entirety; allow me to paraphrase:
1. Both CZ and Savage are good choices, with possibly a slight edge to the CZ... provided that neither sample came off the line Monday morning or Friday afternoon
2. Both are good choices for training rifles
3. Don't expect centerfire accuracy and precision out of a rimfire rifle
4. Bonus: .5moa rimfires exist only in the minds of internet commandos
I've read through it in it's entirety; allow me to paraphrase:
1. Both CZ and Savage are good choices, with possibly a slight edge to the CZ... provided that neither sample came off the line Monday morning or Friday afternoon
2. Both are good choices for training rifles
3. Don't expect centerfire accuracy and precision out of a rimfire rifle
4. Bonus: .5moa rimfires exist only in the minds of internet commandos
Wow fellas, fantastic thread
I've read through it in it's entirety; allow me to paraphrase:
1. Both CZ and Savage are good choices, with possibly a slight edge to the CZ... provided that neither sample came off the line Monday morning or Friday afternoon
2. Both are good choices for training rifles
3. Don't expect centerfire accuracy and precision out of a rimfire rifle
4. Bonus: .5moa rimfires exist only in the minds of internet commandos
Well said except that I give the edge to savage. My TR is a great rifle. I think its current limitation is optics. If I put my nightforce on it I'm sure it would improve. After TONS(Literally went through at least 20 different kinds of .22 ammo) my TR seems to like Gemtech 42gr Subsonic the best. It really loves that shit.
Here are 4-10 round groups(none that make any kind of "sub-moa" cliam. And here is one 5 shot and one 3 shot taken right after another. Member T.J on here can chime in for the validity. Do I get repetable accuracy like that out of 3/5 shot groups? Not every time. I would say I fall into the category that my rifle is capable of sub-moa accuracy on 3 rounds with a higher precentage then at 5 rounds, but hardly at all with 10. I think it would really need better optics to be considered anything stronger. Running a Nikon 3-9 right now.
Groups below:
Wow fellas, fantastic thread
I've read through it in it's entirety; allow me to paraphrase:
1. Both CZ and Savage are good choices, with possibly a slight edge to the CZ... provided that neither sample came off the line Monday morning or Friday afternoon
2. Both are good choices for training rifles
3. Don't expect centerfire accuracy and precision out of a rimfire rifle
4. Bonus: .5moa rimfires exist only in the minds of internet commandos
Actually, rimfire target rifles can delivery significantly better accuracy at sub-100m ranges than centrefire. However, that's for target rifles, not warmed up field rifles as we're discussing here.
As for the 'breaking in' bit, target rifles tend to have button or cut rifled barrels that are then hand lapped by some old boy in the custom shop that has done thousands and knows exactly what he's doing. However, even they need to 'lead in' where the last microscopic variations in the bore are slowly filled with jacket/lead material and the barrel gets polished to it's most accuate condition.
The first 1000 rounds effectively laps the barrel and leads it in. That's why a rimfire shouldn't be cleaned with solvent cleaner very often, you need this 'leading in' to get the best accuracy. The same is true for the action/slide on a autoloading pistol, I know one practical pistol shooter who cleans his pistol every 4000 rounds (45 ACP) and won't shoot in a competition until he's run 500 down the barrel after the last clean. All that powder residue and oil takes up the slack in the slide/action and the tolerances then come down to their 'best'. Keep oiling it and firing.
I think part of the cost difference now versus before was the low cost of SK and Wolf. Both sold for $3.50 - $4.00 per box. That's cheap performance. Lots of shooters buy their rimfire ammo by the case and aren't willing to pay $.10+ for bulk now.
Just my $.02
Just my $.02
When you're not trying to group well at 200yds, use cheap ammo to shoot at <50 yards. You can practice all the technique of accurate shooting for very little money.
I do the same when shooting vintage highpower. I use the cheaper bullets at 200 and 300m, then switch to match grade for 400 and 600. I found that I only got a benefit from match from 400m and beyond, inside 300, the cheaper 174gr mil spec FMJ gives me the same results.
You can use the 'training' rifle for hunting squirrels/rabbits/gophers etc and it'll be cheap hunting and you can train all the other 'tactical' shooting skills, camo, stalking, uphill/downhill shot correction, shooting from unusual rests/positions, rapid follow up on fleeting second/third targets and all that.
If you have a centerfire rifle, that you know for 100% fact will shoot one hole groups at 500 yards, you know when you are shooting 3 inch groups at that range that you are doing something wrong.
Unfortunately, for many of us, having access to true long range targets involves a lot of cost. But, since 22lr travels slower, and weighs less, you can shoot at 50 or 100 yards and see that you are doing something wrong/right.
So, I know my Savage can give me 1-1.5moa at 100 yards when I do my part, at least with this particular batch of ammo (SK Magazine). When I am shooting at golf balls next weekend at 100 yards, I know that a golf ball is 1 3/4" diameter and so a miss is my fault - did it twitch? jerk the trigger? not control my breath? didn't read the wind right? And all of those skills pay off when shooting at 500, 1000, etc. with "the big boys".
As for cost, I paid 9.7 cents per round for the current 1k lot of SK Magazine I'm shooting, and I got it a few weeks ago. I get similar accuracy with CCI SV, which was 320 a case delivered pre-panic. Can you really reload quality ammo for accuracy for under 10 cents per round? How about under 6 cents per round? How much time would loading 500 rounds take you?
if you PM me I can give you actual pix from my range day with the FV-SR. I had a few guys talking about the capabilities of a "good" 22lr rifle and went out to test. on a 8 in shoot-N-C I was able to consistently nail the target with a cheap bushnell banner scope. all rds accounted for. you can see the wind push the rd side to side. I wasn't making any wind calls just having fun at 200 yds.
The only land I can shoot on that isn't a 1.5 hour drive is fairly built up with acreages.
I know that if I lived there I would not appreciate the 'bang' of centerfire rounds and my kids listening to the whine of .223 cartridges.
.22 lets me practice and my neighbors not calling the cops.
Course if you don't care about such things I guess the rimfire is kinda useless.
First - most of us don't train with or for a .223
Second - do you have an unlimited supply of .22 match bullets, brass, powder, primers and time?
Third - assuming you have #2... the top .22 match ammo runs about $15 per 50 or $0.30 a round but most use cheaper ammo whicg runs $0.10 a round. Can you load for that when .22 match bullets alone will run you $0.20 or more just for the bullets?
Fourth - do you have easier access to 600 yards or 100 yards? Because shooting a .22lr at 100 is similar ballistically to a .308 at 600.
Lastly - have you ever shot a .22lr set up as a trainer? It is addictive and you may find yourself looking forward to shooting the rimfire more than the cf.
I have to agree with bobtod and Rico.
Between work and all the springtime chores, I have pretty much zero time off to shoot long range.
Luckily for me, I have a 100y range down in the pasture.
I have a lot of neighbors, so the sheriff gets called if there's too much high velocity ammo getting fired. So far, it's been all friendly with the nice quiet match ammo.
Being exhausted most evenings, I find myself sneaking down to the range and shooting a lot more groups from prone than usual. I haven't had time to drive the hour to shoot centerfire on BLM land, and it's hard as eff to practice silhouette with jelly legs and chainsaw forearms.
Let me first say, my CZ 455pt shot pretty crappy when it was brand new. Around 200 rounds, it started to show some promise.
Somewhere between 600-900 rounds, things were looking good. Then it wigged out around 1200 rounds, due to a buildup of Wolf/Lapua woo on the crown.
Here's a pic of the day it wigged. After shooting the targets noted "after 200" I noticed the crown, it had a big barnacle of bullet lube crusted on the crown. A dry boresnaking and it shot the remaining groups on that page
100y
The bottom page was first groups of the day, not shooting so well, plus a few groups of 6.5. We will not discuss the circled group of 6.5
To clean it, I used a dry .17 cal snake @ 500 rounds.
A dry .22 snake @ roughly 900 rounds
Again at 1200
A .17 or .22 snaking every 1000 or so, usually I use the .17 and give the crown a little tlc with a q-tip.
A more recent pic at around 6k rounds. there's been quite a bit of wind lately(15-20mph), this must have been a less windy day. I am really not good at making wind calls
I Cerakoted the stock trigger and lightened it to its max. since the 1st pic. It's no Jewell or Timney, but it's good enough I don't really feel the need for a YoDave.
100y
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my measurements seemed a bit rough upon reinvestigation, the inner orange ring is 1".
And some 10 shotters with some decent wind. The group with no target, it was dead calm at the end of the day. I dialed .7 mil(I think) and held the center bull(I'm pretty sure I was chasing a bad first shot for better #'s on that target)
Shot #7 was the wide left, poor recoil management, as was shot #9 on the wide right. Inner green rings are 1"
100y
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The fifteen shot group was from another day, again, at the end of the day. It was dead calm for the 1st 10. I took a shit with the sandbag around shot #4 for that 1 that hit high.
10 shots measured around mid .8's if memory serves me(don't count on it) and around .65ish without my crapper shot.
I figured I'd shoot the last 5 rounds I had at it. Then the wind picked back up............. I hit the 3 low and the 2nd highest shot with only 1 good shot out of 5
All groups were shot with Center-x with a Champion bipod(POS, my Harris Finally got here) and rear bag.
When it was new, I tested about 12 different offerings from Eley,Federal,Remington,wolf,SK, and Lapua. I did NOT have any Tenex.
Lapua Midas+ was best, followed by center-X, the higher end federal,SK and Eley were pretty close, but I was seeing a few flyers.
Wolf MT and ME(match extra) suck ass at 100 and beyond for ME.....best I've ever managed is 1.25" @ 100y. At 200y it gets 10 times worse in the wind. For some reason, it hates the wind
I'm very happy with the way my stock CZ is shooting.
The less I clean it, the better it seems to get.
I'm just waiting for the day it all falls to hell and I have to scrub it and start all over again. Saving that damn Wolf for that.
Now I just need to learn to shoot better in the wind, that goddamn shit is EVERYWHERE.
Something I found interesting: I had to download and print the manual for my buddies new Anschutz. I'm pretty sure it said clean every 1000 rounds for the first 2000 rounds, then clean every 2k-5k rounds. It's on their site as DLC
Between work and all the springtime chores, I have pretty much zero time off to shoot long range.
Luckily for me, I have a 100y range down in the pasture.
I have a lot of neighbors, so the sheriff gets called if there's too much high velocity ammo getting fired. So far, it's been all friendly with the nice quiet match ammo.
Being exhausted most evenings, I find myself sneaking down to the range and shooting a lot more groups from prone than usual. I haven't had time to drive the hour to shoot centerfire on BLM land, and it's hard as eff to practice silhouette with jelly legs and chainsaw forearms.
Let me first say, my CZ 455pt shot pretty crappy when it was brand new. Around 200 rounds, it started to show some promise.
Somewhere between 600-900 rounds, things were looking good. Then it wigged out around 1200 rounds, due to a buildup of Wolf/Lapua woo on the crown.
Here's a pic of the day it wigged. After shooting the targets noted "after 200" I noticed the crown, it had a big barnacle of bullet lube crusted on the crown. A dry boresnaking and it shot the remaining groups on that page
100y
The bottom page was first groups of the day, not shooting so well, plus a few groups of 6.5. We will not discuss the circled group of 6.5
To clean it, I used a dry .17 cal snake @ 500 rounds.
A dry .22 snake @ roughly 900 rounds
Again at 1200
A .17 or .22 snaking every 1000 or so, usually I use the .17 and give the crown a little tlc with a q-tip.
A more recent pic at around 6k rounds. there's been quite a bit of wind lately(15-20mph), this must have been a less windy day. I am really not good at making wind calls
I Cerakoted the stock trigger and lightened it to its max. since the 1st pic. It's no Jewell or Timney, but it's good enough I don't really feel the need for a YoDave.
100y
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my measurements seemed a bit rough upon reinvestigation, the inner orange ring is 1".
And some 10 shotters with some decent wind. The group with no target, it was dead calm at the end of the day. I dialed .7 mil(I think) and held the center bull(I'm pretty sure I was chasing a bad first shot for better #'s on that target
)Shot #7 was the wide left, poor recoil management, as was shot #9 on the wide right. Inner green rings are 1"
100y
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The fifteen shot group was from another day, again, at the end of the day. It was dead calm for the 1st 10. I took a shit with the sandbag around shot #4 for that 1 that hit high.
10 shots measured around mid .8's if memory serves me(don't count on it) and around .65ish without my crapper shot.
I figured I'd shoot the last 5 rounds I had at it. Then the wind picked back up............. I hit the 3 low and the 2nd highest shot with only 1 good shot out of 5
All groups were shot with Center-x with a Champion bipod(POS, my Harris Finally got here) and rear bag.
When it was new, I tested about 12 different offerings from Eley,Federal,Remington,wolf,SK, and Lapua. I did NOT have any Tenex.
Lapua Midas+ was best, followed by center-X, the higher end federal,SK and Eley were pretty close, but I was seeing a few flyers.
Wolf MT and ME(match extra) suck ass at 100 and beyond for ME.....best I've ever managed is 1.25" @ 100y. At 200y it gets 10 times worse in the wind. For some reason, it hates the wind
I'm very happy with the way my stock CZ is shooting.
The less I clean it, the better it seems to get.
I'm just waiting for the day it all falls to hell and I have to scrub it and start all over again. Saving that damn Wolf for that.
Now I just need to learn to shoot better in the wind, that goddamn shit is EVERYWHERE.
Something I found interesting: I had to download and print the manual for my buddies new Anschutz. I'm pretty sure it said clean every 1000 rounds for the first 2000 rounds, then clean every 2k-5k rounds. It's on their site as DLC
Last lastly, I have 4,000 rounds of .22LR I'm willing to part with. I just shot up 80 rounds of .308 that I wasn't willing to part with under ordinary circumstances.
Scope should be here tomorrow. I'll hopefully get a range trip on Friday (depending on weather).
My MKII TR has been shooting .75 - 1 moa for me with Wolf MT; I imagine a better shooter could make those groups tighter though. That being said, I'm really not sold on the Boyd's stock, the wood is just too soft. I have been planning to pick up a Manners for it at some point. The MKII is a great gun, but knowing what I know now I would go with the 455 PT if I had to do it again just to have the stock I want.
Finally got my range trip in!
I stuck a Primary Arms FFP scope on it for a trial and the thing was wonderful. The glass is every bit as good as my bottom end SWFA fixed 10x and I like the knobs on the PA scope significantly more. I don't get along with the three set screw SWFA knobs, and yes I know what thread locking compounds are. Add in that its a FFP variable with side parallax down to 10yd and whats not to love?!
Anyway, I put just under 400 rounds down range yesterday. Accuracy was very tolerable. The one thing I didn't figure leading up to this was that the recoil would be so non-existent that it would be blatantly obvious when I crank a round vs a round going wherever it wants to.
I did a bunch of 5 round groups just for kicks and averaged them. Best was 1MOA flat, worst was a little over 3MOA. With only 10 groups she averages out a little under 2MOA.
The rest of the afternoon was spent shooting 25 round groups and I can tell you that, if you remove fliers, she is roughly a ~1.75MOA gun at worst with the Mini-Mags I have. I'm totally ok with this because I can actually see when a round goes wherever it wants vs my own suckage. For example with the 3MOA group - rounds 1, 2 and 4 went right where they belonged. The 3rd and 5th rounds absolutely literally doubled then tripled the existing group size and got a "WTF" from me when I saw them hit. The group prior was the 1MOA flat, and the group after was 1.4MOA. Shrug.
Being unable to hand feed it BLOWS. I'll do some research on the single shot adapter. If its a standard magazine with a one round capacity then BS. If it is basically a channel for a hand fed round to fall into for feeding then hell yeah. Its much more... I don't know 'meditative(?)' for me to fire a round, crank out the spent casing, hand feed it another one and reset behind the rifle. I find it keeps me honest and encourages me to make sure I'm lined up correctly behind the gun. If all else fails, I'll get a couple 10 rounders and work on keeping myself honest.
According to my calculations, the ammo savings from the first range outing were around $500. WELL worth the price of admission, even jumping straight into the CZ455 PT. I'll have it "paid off" in full, scope and everything, right around 1k rounds. Not bad considering paid for it with money from selling a rifle I never shot and thus have almost nothing in it assuming that money from selling a firearm stays in the firearms budget.
I stuck a Primary Arms FFP scope on it for a trial and the thing was wonderful. The glass is every bit as good as my bottom end SWFA fixed 10x and I like the knobs on the PA scope significantly more. I don't get along with the three set screw SWFA knobs, and yes I know what thread locking compounds are. Add in that its a FFP variable with side parallax down to 10yd and whats not to love?!
Anyway, I put just under 400 rounds down range yesterday. Accuracy was very tolerable. The one thing I didn't figure leading up to this was that the recoil would be so non-existent that it would be blatantly obvious when I crank a round vs a round going wherever it wants to.
I did a bunch of 5 round groups just for kicks and averaged them. Best was 1MOA flat, worst was a little over 3MOA. With only 10 groups she averages out a little under 2MOA.
The rest of the afternoon was spent shooting 25 round groups and I can tell you that, if you remove fliers, she is roughly a ~1.75MOA gun at worst with the Mini-Mags I have. I'm totally ok with this because I can actually see when a round goes wherever it wants vs my own suckage. For example with the 3MOA group - rounds 1, 2 and 4 went right where they belonged. The 3rd and 5th rounds absolutely literally doubled then tripled the existing group size and got a "WTF" from me when I saw them hit. The group prior was the 1MOA flat, and the group after was 1.4MOA. Shrug.
Being unable to hand feed it BLOWS. I'll do some research on the single shot adapter. If its a standard magazine with a one round capacity then BS. If it is basically a channel for a hand fed round to fall into for feeding then hell yeah. Its much more... I don't know 'meditative(?)' for me to fire a round, crank out the spent casing, hand feed it another one and reset behind the rifle. I find it keeps me honest and encourages me to make sure I'm lined up correctly behind the gun. If all else fails, I'll get a couple 10 rounders and work on keeping myself honest.
According to my calculations, the ammo savings from the first range outing were around $500. WELL worth the price of admission, even jumping straight into the CZ455 PT. I'll have it "paid off" in full, scope and everything, right around 1k rounds. Not bad considering paid for it with money from selling a rifle I never shot and thus have almost nothing in it assuming that money from selling a firearm stays in the firearms budget.
To come back to this, as I was having some trouble with my cz455 varmint. Groups would be anywhere from 1" to 3"
Well, it seems to be settling down. I have 1200 rounds down the tube now, and last night I shot 2 25-shot groups. Both of them were ~1.5" (@100y), which I consider pretty good for 25-shot "groups". (note: I did discount 2 obvious flyers). I'll have to do some 5 shots groups later as that seems to be the standard.
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Another thing I discovered this weekend was how much your shooting range can affect your shooting.
At our facility we have a rimfire range that is 100m (Canada, ya know). On either side of it are bigbore ranges that start at 100m and go out to 500m.
The rimfire range is, at its widest about 30m. On either side are earth berms about 12' high to separate them from the big bore ranges.
It was windy...a steady 15mph with gust to 30 and the best groups I was getting with my .22WMR @100m were in the 2-2.5" range. Normally she shoots 1/2 that.
One of the other shooters (more knowledgeable than I) mentioned that the berms play havoc with the wind...creating cross currents and such. He said I should set up on the 100m bench on the bigbore range as they are much wider (about 100m) and so less affected by crosscurrents.
Well, damned if he wasn't correct. The groups were all 1.5" or so from POA in the direction of the wind, but they were all back at about 1.5" groups (5 shot) which I considered great considering the wind.
At our facility we have a rimfire range that is 100m (Canada, ya know). On either side of it are bigbore ranges that start at 100m and go out to 500m.
The rimfire range is, at its widest about 30m. On either side are earth berms about 12' high to separate them from the big bore ranges.
It was windy...a steady 15mph with gust to 30 and the best groups I was getting with my .22WMR @100m were in the 2-2.5" range. Normally she shoots 1/2 that.
One of the other shooters (more knowledgeable than I) mentioned that the berms play havoc with the wind...creating cross currents and such. He said I should set up on the 100m bench on the bigbore range as they are much wider (about 100m) and so less affected by crosscurrents.
Well, damned if he wasn't correct. The groups were all 1.5" or so from POA in the direction of the wind, but they were all back at about 1.5" groups (5 shot) which I considered great considering the wind.
Have both.
Got the Mk2 BV first and shot it with some success. Fought group sizes to keep them under an inch at 100 yards but it wasn't always almost a sure thing. I didn't like the stock at all as it slid all over the place with its cheap plastic buttplate and the comb was made for a 12 year olds face.
CZ 455 VPT results: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ll-your-fault-talking-me-into-buying-one.html
Got the Mk2 BV first and shot it with some success. Fought group sizes to keep them under an inch at 100 yards but it wasn't always almost a sure thing. I didn't like the stock at all as it slid all over the place with its cheap plastic buttplate and the comb was made for a 12 year olds face.
CZ 455 VPT results: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ll-your-fault-talking-me-into-buying-one.html
Interesting thread. If I shoot a 5 shot group at 100yds that is larger than .5moa with my 6BR I'm bitterly disappointed, if I shoot a 5 shot group under 1moa with a .22 I'm over the moon. Yes they do happen but not on a regular basis and often there seems no reason for the odd flyer's.
The CZ .22's that I have used have all shot very well, some better than others. Personally I favour the 452 variants with a "proper" locking lug on the bolt rather than the newer 455's
In this short clip there's only the Eley tennex that was sub 1 moa. True, the conditions were poor and it was at 65 yards, my usual rabbit shooting range but it does show that you need to try several brands of ammunition through your particular rifle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqRw_xDtrFc
The CZ .22's that I have used have all shot very well, some better than others. Personally I favour the 452 variants with a "proper" locking lug on the bolt rather than the newer 455's
In this short clip there's only the Eley tennex that was sub 1 moa. True, the conditions were poor and it was at 65 yards, my usual rabbit shooting range but it does show that you need to try several brands of ammunition through your particular rifle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqRw_xDtrFc
That also assumes that you can't tell when you fuck up with a .22lr trainer. The FIRST thing I noticed was the gun was so damn heavy that off a bi-pod and rear bag it didn't move at all and I could see if I was jerking it around. At that point, honestly, the impacts down range became much less relevant. Having solid known accuracy going into it if you're shooting farther than 50yd would be nice if you're working on wind and whatnot, but when you're trying to see if you're pulling your shots like an idiot then less accurate ammo isn't a huge deal.
I bought CCI Mini-Mags by the case for $0.06/rd
what it boils down to
What it boils down to me is this:
I go for fit and finish. If fit and finish are good, quality usually follows.
At this point there are only two (2) variables. 1) ammo, 2) technique.
You find the ammo that compliments the equipment. Then you work on trigger time.
Went to a match once. All these high-dollar actions in high-dollar stocks sitting in high-dollar cnc machined rests. The rounds were dispatched with thumb and index finger. No other human contact with equipment. Sorry to say, that is not marksmanship. To be a marksman, you and your equipment are one. Breathing and muscle control are what make the grade.
That being said, I will try everything on my own and come to my own quiet conclusions. Then I'll be a "happy camper".
Good reading though. Always enjoy range reports!
What it boils down to me is this:
I go for fit and finish. If fit and finish are good, quality usually follows.
At this point there are only two (2) variables. 1) ammo, 2) technique.
You find the ammo that compliments the equipment. Then you work on trigger time.
Went to a match once. All these high-dollar actions in high-dollar stocks sitting in high-dollar cnc machined rests. The rounds were dispatched with thumb and index finger. No other human contact with equipment. Sorry to say, that is not marksmanship. To be a marksman, you and your equipment are one. Breathing and muscle control are what make the grade.
That being said, I will try everything on my own and come to my own quiet conclusions. Then I'll be a "happy camper".
Good reading though. Always enjoy range reports!
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Totally agree Mako.
You see a lot of comparisons of teeny 100yd groups shot off a rest on a windless say.
To me, any quality rifle should shoot pretty close to 1MOA under these circumstances.
Recently I've been stretching my Savage .22WMR out to 200-300 yds off a bi-pod.
On Sunday when I was doing this there was 15mph wind with 25mph gusts.
I was shooting at 8" plates. Hitting them 1/2 the time...but considering the conditions it was far more satisfying than 1" groups at 100yds.
You see a lot of comparisons of teeny 100yd groups shot off a rest on a windless say.
To me, any quality rifle should shoot pretty close to 1MOA under these circumstances.
Recently I've been stretching my Savage .22WMR out to 200-300 yds off a bi-pod.
On Sunday when I was doing this there was 15mph wind with 25mph gusts.
I was shooting at 8" plates. Hitting them 1/2 the time...but considering the conditions it was far more satisfying than 1" groups at 100yds.
I have owned a Ruger 77/22 and a couple built 10/22's, as well as some odds and ends including my first rifle, a Winchester 69A.
The CZ 455 Tacticool that I picked up earlier this year has been the funnest by far. While the Savage is not a bad rifle, a couple friends have them and comparing side by side the CZ is definitely nicer in the fit and finish department, and mine is less finicky about what ammo you feed it.
The factory target at 50 meters:
Some of the first groups that I shot with it-
A couple at 50 off a bipod, slight breeze, the center dot is .80 inches
My wife shot this one and makes me look bad
And out in the field being proven:
The CZ 455 Tacticool that I picked up earlier this year has been the funnest by far. While the Savage is not a bad rifle, a couple friends have them and comparing side by side the CZ is definitely nicer in the fit and finish department, and mine is less finicky about what ammo you feed it.
The factory target at 50 meters:
Some of the first groups that I shot with it-
A couple at 50 off a bipod, slight breeze, the center dot is .80 inches
My wife shot this one and makes me look bad
And out in the field being proven:
This is what you zero with. Rare, but, just wait for it.
There is no replacement for trigger time, the only school. Learning what conditions produce what results.
Practice, practice, practice! Practice w/notes. Always keep a log.
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Its not a one hole group but my CZ 452 can shoot. The only mod I did was to add the Yo-Dave trigger upgrade.
I do not believe in 25yd shooting as its pure "let me shoot a small group" nonsense. I shoot at 100-150-200yds. It helps me read the wind and learn to shoot better.
At 50yds when the gun was new, just after sighting in.
At 100 yds in gusting wind with crap wallyworld ammo
At 100 yds rapid fire kill shots (rabbit)
I do not believe in 25yd shooting as its pure "let me shoot a small group" nonsense. I shoot at 100-150-200yds. It helps me read the wind and learn to shoot better.
At 50yds when the gun was new, just after sighting in.
At 100 yds in gusting wind with crap wallyworld ammo
At 100 yds rapid fire kill shots (rabbit)
In my opinion you should not be comparing these guns by out of the box accuracy. If you are buying a gun to shoot for group size then you need to make improvements to (or replace) the stock trigger. You also need to make adjustments to the torque on the action screws to improve the accuracy of the gun (for free!). These two key improvements are a must. If you have not played with the torque on your action screws and witnessed the impact it has on the accuracy of your gun you are missing the single biggest factor impacting the accuracy of your rimfire (yes, potentially even more than upgrading to a match barrel). With the CZ you can get an $18 YoDave trigger shim and spring kit that greatly improves the trigger. You can also fully adjust the action screws with no aftermarket parts needed. With the Savage you virtually have to replace the bottom metal to be able to adjust the action screws. The stock bottom metal will deflect and bend at 18 in/lbs of torque. Best accuracy is often in the 20 to 24 in/lbs. range so you can effectively not even dial in the accuracy of the Savage's without buying an aftermarket part (yes it is fairly cheap but still necessary). I am not familiar enough with the adjustments on the accutrigger to comment but others talk of a trigger replacement on the savage.
Now assume that both guns have improved triggers and the action screws have been adjusted to optimize the accuracy of each gun. Which shoots better? Probably the CZ, but not by much. Savage is famous for having great barrels, so they shoot well. It is the rest of the gun that leaves something to be desired with the Savage. Personally, cycling the bolt on a Savage feels like I am shooting a Cricket child's training rifle. Not a very solid feeling bolt at all. If you were going to upgrade every single aspect of a Savage except the receiver and the bolt I would still not want the savage. The bolt is the deal killer for me.
A note on accuracy: I do believe that both of these rifles are capable of shooting better than some people are reporting. Take the time to upgrade the trigger and adjust the action screws and you could get anywhere from a little better to much better groupings. On the flip side, I think that these rifles almost always shoot slightly worse than some people are reporting. I keep seeing the comment that "my gun holds .75 MOA when I do my part." Many many rimfires will hold .75 MOA at 25 yards. Quite a few will even hold .75 MOA at 50 yards. Very few will hold .75 MOA at 100 yards. Almost none will hold .75 MOA at 200 yards. The anomaly of accuracy claims can usually be answered by the number of posts a member has. No offense to anyone personally, but it is usually the guys with under 100 posts that come in with guns blazing and claiming that their gun shoots sub MOA all day long. Discount the posts from newer members and trust some of the veteran members here and you should have a pretty good idea of what your gun is capable of.
Now assume that both guns have improved triggers and the action screws have been adjusted to optimize the accuracy of each gun. Which shoots better? Probably the CZ, but not by much. Savage is famous for having great barrels, so they shoot well. It is the rest of the gun that leaves something to be desired with the Savage. Personally, cycling the bolt on a Savage feels like I am shooting a Cricket child's training rifle. Not a very solid feeling bolt at all. If you were going to upgrade every single aspect of a Savage except the receiver and the bolt I would still not want the savage. The bolt is the deal killer for me.
A note on accuracy: I do believe that both of these rifles are capable of shooting better than some people are reporting. Take the time to upgrade the trigger and adjust the action screws and you could get anywhere from a little better to much better groupings. On the flip side, I think that these rifles almost always shoot slightly worse than some people are reporting. I keep seeing the comment that "my gun holds .75 MOA when I do my part." Many many rimfires will hold .75 MOA at 25 yards. Quite a few will even hold .75 MOA at 50 yards. Very few will hold .75 MOA at 100 yards. Almost none will hold .75 MOA at 200 yards. The anomaly of accuracy claims can usually be answered by the number of posts a member has. No offense to anyone personally, but it is usually the guys with under 100 posts that come in with guns blazing and claiming that their gun shoots sub MOA all day long. Discount the posts from newer members and trust some of the veteran members here and you should have a pretty good idea of what your gun is capable of.
