Myself and a buddy use the side shot scope mounts...idk about unbraked Norma, but suppressed 300wm hasn’t damaged either of our phones yet...been using them for a year or so
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PRS Talk Innovation killing the spirit?
- Thread starter jcwarrior87
- Start date
Instead of having gear restrictions, what are your thoughts on limiting stage prep, maybe only allowing you to load your mag and write down your dope? By this, I mean that shooters would have to start with their gear packed the way they would carry it. Example: Tripods would start completely collapsed. Shooters can definitely still share their equipment; the recipient shooter would still have to start the stage the same way.
The thought here is to let anyone use whatever they want, but they will have to consider how much time they will lose by getting setup for the shot, and how many impacts they may lose without the gear.
I see both points of view in this debate. I love the product/gear innovation coming out of the sport, and I'm impressed at the innovation of shooters using their gear (old and new). Personally, I dont think gear limitations will make a difference, it will just cultivate a different direction of innovation. When there is a will, there is a way.
The thought here is to let anyone use whatever they want, but they will have to consider how much time they will lose by getting setup for the shot, and how many impacts they may lose without the gear.
I see both points of view in this debate. I love the product/gear innovation coming out of the sport, and I'm impressed at the innovation of shooters using their gear (old and new). Personally, I dont think gear limitations will make a difference, it will just cultivate a different direction of innovation. When there is a will, there is a way.
Look back at my post in here about running half of a match with only long-format stages with timed starts for the shooters - that's exactly what they'd be coping with. Yeah, you've got your whole ruck full of stuff, but if you go digging in it, you're going to get caught by the dude behind you that DIDN'T do it and be in a world of hurt.
The Sporting Rifle Match (SRM) in Raton NM goes by this concept. You start your stage with everything undeployed, scope caps closed, tripod collapsed, etc. There's quite a hike between some of the stages, so for example, if you carry your tripod in your hand, you can start with it in hand, but if you put it in or on your pack, you will need to access it on the clock. The only rule I don't agree with is they say your bipod needs to be folded when you start, but I never fold my bipod, except when it goes in the bag or case. I carry my rifle with bipod legs down. But it's their match, their rules.
Personally, I prefer the field style matches.
With the SRM, and many others, you can use what you carry, which is a realistic senerio.
There was an NRL match in New Mexico a couple years ago, where the stages were blind stages. Shooters were in a holding area, and waited there until it was your time to shoot. You knew the distances and shapes of the targets, and when called up to shoot, the RO's would show you the shooting positions, left and right limits of where the targets are located, and then the clock started. It was up to you to locate the targets, and engage them from a dot painted on a rock, or on the ground. You had to be within arms reach of the dot, and could use any piece of equipment that you brought with you.
Unbelievable, how many people were trying to cheat by inching out of the holding area and trying to see if they could find the targets. Also a lot of whining from those shooters who were used to having all their gear prepped for a certain stage or prop prior to shooting.
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Two things I don't like about "blind stages". First is that are that it simply messes with the ability to hang out with friends at a match. It cuts up the squad, you get less interaction and end up standing in the box waiting for your turn. Second is the somewhat random nature of trying to locate targets on the clock. Sometimes you just get lucky and see the target and sometimes people can't find it. Ultimately people are signing up for a shooting competition, not a target finding competition.
So I've been following these threads for quite some time and have even put my two cents forth on occasion and at the end of the day it always comes down to a couple of things.
1) Who gets to decide what is practical? If a guy is 6'2" and 225lbs and in reasonably good shape he can carry a lot more gear than myself at 5' 9" 175lbs. Does that mean that my idea of practical is more relevant than his? For example, I disagree with Jim See not allowing tripods at the Border Wars matches the first couple years (not sure if that rule changed for 2019). Jim has a different idea of what a tripod is to be used for, than I do. It's his series and his matches, his rules. MDs can easily design stages that will make people use less gear. Hell, there are a dozen or more little tweaks to the pre stage instructions alone that can make it more difficult for those that want to use 2-3 bags and a tripod on a stage. Not to mention the unlimited amount of stage design tweaks that can be made for when a shooter is actually on the clock.
2) Who gets to decide what is and is not gaming? Is it the top 20 shooters in each league, is it the bottom 220? Is it a BOD for each series/league? Is it Shannon for the PRS and Tyler/Travis for the NRL? Is it the Snipers Hide membership? The facebook crowd? To one MD, using a wood clamp on an obstacle may be gaming the intent of the stage while to another it's thinking outside the box. Personally I think it's ridiculous but I'm just one shooter and I don't know what that MD wants. If a shooter blatantly breaks the rules, then it's up to the RO or his/her fellow squad mates to call that shooter out on the spot. We dealt with this at my local series, it happens. But bringing it up after the match, or on SH or on FB does nothing but spin up the frothing masses on both sides. It's up to the MD to convey to the shooters and ROs what his expectations of the match and individual stages are. If the RO is unsure of how to make a call then get the MD over to the stage.
3) Who gets to decide where the line is on rifle limitations and why? Again, if a guy is willing to lug a 25-30lb rifle around, good on him. Again if the MD doesn't want guys lugging 25-30 design stages that make moving a 25-30lb rifle around, suck. Make people pick their rifle up off the ground multiple time in a stage. Make them move their rifle to four or five different shooting points. Drop the time limit down to 90 seconds. Or don't, it's up to the MD
The easy answer is the MDs and the series organizers and bosses. But they're also in the business of growing the sport not just running the matches. If a match becomes too restrictive or purist, attendance goes down. If a match caters to heavily towards the top 5-10 shooters, attendance goes down. It's a balancing act and not an easy one at that. Look at the storm in the SE Region over a $40 fee.
At the end of the day you get one vote per match and one vote per series. If you don't like the way a series is run or the way an MD designs their course of fire, vote with your wallet. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to attend a match or register for a series.
As far as the prize table thing goes, let the sponsors and MDs decide how they want the prizes to get dolled out to shooters, ROs, range help, etc. Again if you don't like the way a prize table is handled by the MD, don't attend that match next year. If you do, then attend that match next year.
TL;DR: The wailing and knashing of teeth in regards to gaming and practicality of equipment in the sport does nothing to help the sport grow and progress. Leave prize tables up to the series, sponsors and/or MDs.
1) Who gets to decide what is practical? If a guy is 6'2" and 225lbs and in reasonably good shape he can carry a lot more gear than myself at 5' 9" 175lbs. Does that mean that my idea of practical is more relevant than his? For example, I disagree with Jim See not allowing tripods at the Border Wars matches the first couple years (not sure if that rule changed for 2019). Jim has a different idea of what a tripod is to be used for, than I do. It's his series and his matches, his rules. MDs can easily design stages that will make people use less gear. Hell, there are a dozen or more little tweaks to the pre stage instructions alone that can make it more difficult for those that want to use 2-3 bags and a tripod on a stage. Not to mention the unlimited amount of stage design tweaks that can be made for when a shooter is actually on the clock.
2) Who gets to decide what is and is not gaming? Is it the top 20 shooters in each league, is it the bottom 220? Is it a BOD for each series/league? Is it Shannon for the PRS and Tyler/Travis for the NRL? Is it the Snipers Hide membership? The facebook crowd? To one MD, using a wood clamp on an obstacle may be gaming the intent of the stage while to another it's thinking outside the box. Personally I think it's ridiculous but I'm just one shooter and I don't know what that MD wants. If a shooter blatantly breaks the rules, then it's up to the RO or his/her fellow squad mates to call that shooter out on the spot. We dealt with this at my local series, it happens. But bringing it up after the match, or on SH or on FB does nothing but spin up the frothing masses on both sides. It's up to the MD to convey to the shooters and ROs what his expectations of the match and individual stages are. If the RO is unsure of how to make a call then get the MD over to the stage.
3) Who gets to decide where the line is on rifle limitations and why? Again, if a guy is willing to lug a 25-30lb rifle around, good on him. Again if the MD doesn't want guys lugging 25-30 design stages that make moving a 25-30lb rifle around, suck. Make people pick their rifle up off the ground multiple time in a stage. Make them move their rifle to four or five different shooting points. Drop the time limit down to 90 seconds. Or don't, it's up to the MD
The easy answer is the MDs and the series organizers and bosses. But they're also in the business of growing the sport not just running the matches. If a match becomes too restrictive or purist, attendance goes down. If a match caters to heavily towards the top 5-10 shooters, attendance goes down. It's a balancing act and not an easy one at that. Look at the storm in the SE Region over a $40 fee.
At the end of the day you get one vote per match and one vote per series. If you don't like the way a series is run or the way an MD designs their course of fire, vote with your wallet. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to attend a match or register for a series.
As far as the prize table thing goes, let the sponsors and MDs decide how they want the prizes to get dolled out to shooters, ROs, range help, etc. Again if you don't like the way a prize table is handled by the MD, don't attend that match next year. If you do, then attend that match next year.
TL;DR: The wailing and knashing of teeth in regards to gaming and practicality of equipment in the sport does nothing to help the sport grow and progress. Leave prize tables up to the series, sponsors and/or MDs.
A lot of good points. I still wish there was a rifle weight limit.
Out of all the "gadgets" that help non-pros get hits/hurts non-pros by allowing them to forsake fundamentals, rifle weight seems to me the biggest offender. Then pair that with what I personally detest, how unrealistic it would be for someone going to war or hunting with a 20+ lb small caliber rifle. I mean come on: intentionally adding weight! Only in la-la-land can one entertain adding weight to 12+lb rifles. Just not realistic for any other use in life other than maybe a door stop etc.
I know one thing. I myself just wont do it. I already consider a 13lb short action too much for enjoyable all day western hunting. I already carry too much wight in my ruck and any pound I can shave off elsewhere but my fitness and mission allow me to carry I will substitute with more ammo.
When I shoot a match I will simply be at a "disadvantage" for winning/placing higher/getting a prize because I choose to practice/compete how I play/fight. I don't demand the world make a class to suit me, but I none the less think a lot of people would appreciate a rifle weight limit. And like eating vegetables, it may not taste good but it would benefit everyone.
To your point RoterJager, a course of fire can't really make a guy feel the true consequences of a heavy rifle like "real life" hunting/fighting would. Match directors can influence a lot but I don't think they can really make people see how unrealistic a heavy rifle is.
Out of all the "gadgets" that help non-pros get hits/hurts non-pros by allowing them to forsake fundamentals, rifle weight seems to me the biggest offender. Then pair that with what I personally detest, how unrealistic it would be for someone going to war or hunting with a 20+ lb small caliber rifle. I mean come on: intentionally adding weight! Only in la-la-land can one entertain adding weight to 12+lb rifles. Just not realistic for any other use in life other than maybe a door stop etc.
I know one thing. I myself just wont do it. I already consider a 13lb short action too much for enjoyable all day western hunting. I already carry too much wight in my ruck and any pound I can shave off elsewhere but my fitness and mission allow me to carry I will substitute with more ammo.
When I shoot a match I will simply be at a "disadvantage" for winning/placing higher/getting a prize because I choose to practice/compete how I play/fight. I don't demand the world make a class to suit me, but I none the less think a lot of people would appreciate a rifle weight limit. And like eating vegetables, it may not taste good but it would benefit everyone.
To your point RoterJager, a course of fire can't really make a guy feel the true consequences of a heavy rifle like "real life" hunting/fighting would. Match directors can influence a lot but I don't think they can really make people see how unrealistic a heavy rifle is.
I have to respectfully disagree on the weight limit. We aren't going to war. We're playing a game. Not to mention my comp gun (SAC Alpha, PRS1, NF ATACR 7-35, Area 419 Arcalock, Atlas and TBAC Ultra 7) weighs less than an M40 A5, according to the specs I could find and my other comp gun is an AXMC so the whole fighting rifle argument to me, is a moot point.
I don't hunt out west so I won't comment to that point. I do hunt in here with my tripod and AXMC but I'm not walking more than a mile or two in day.
As far as course of fire. Pretty sure guys running 20+ lb rifle rifls at the 2017 GAP Grind were feeling the consequences of having a 20+lb rifle after the Grind It Out stage.
I don't hunt out west so I won't comment to that point. I do hunt in here with my tripod and AXMC but I'm not walking more than a mile or two in day.
As far as course of fire. Pretty sure guys running 20+ lb rifle rifls at the 2017 GAP Grind were feeling the consequences of having a 20+lb rifle after the Grind It Out stage.
@morganlamprecht I posted some pics relevant to your questions on the comp bag. The little thing keeps surprising me everytime I take it out to try something.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/comp-bag-from-precision-underground-rifle-gear.6922502/
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/comp-bag-from-precision-underground-rifle-gear.6922502/
I hear ya, not everyone participates for the same reason just like not everyone hunts the same way. Its true, that at the end of the day it has become a game; I'm just arguing its become a little too unrealistic of a game. Why not have a game that also develops skills that translate to valuable life pursuits of marksmanship/hunting/fighting, etc. A 20+lb gun does not do this very well, if at all, and can be argued to actually undermine.
Its really not true that we aren't going to war, at least not true for all of us (and all should be ready to a certain extent). None of them are using a 20lb small caliber rifle; none of them are needlessly adding weight, to the contrary they are trying to drop weight. The only reason service rifles are so heavy is because their features make them that way, not because soldiers want them that heavy.
As to "feeling the consequences of having a 20+lb rifle after the Grind It Out stage", I know one stage in one day does not accurately relay the full consequences of a full day hunting/hiking/fighting with said weapon. If anyone had to hunt or fight for a living they would abandon those rifles for lighter alternatives in no time at all.
But, it is just a game, and if the majority or controllers of it don't care about how unrealistic it is or how well it translates to meaningful skills then so be it. I'll get what I can out of it or I'll move on. Just putting my thoughts out there for why I see justification for a rifle weight limit.
Most sports get more expensive and complex as they grow... look at all the “new” sports that have evolved over our lifetimes ~ tennis, golf, boats, skis, everything is higher tech and more intense. Amateurs turn into pros, marketing gets more important and so on.
If you want pure and simple you have to get in at the beginning. Shooting informally at local ranges, sharing rifles and ammo, doing it for the love of the sport.
Speaking of which, come up with an adjustable stock “standard” rifle that everyone takes turns shooting with the same stock ammo. Best group wins. That’d be a good contest and CHEAP.
Get a gun maker to sponsor it ~ you’d get a level playing field and it would all come down to technique not wallet.
If you want pure and simple you have to get in at the beginning. Shooting informally at local ranges, sharing rifles and ammo, doing it for the love of the sport.
Speaking of which, come up with an adjustable stock “standard” rifle that everyone takes turns shooting with the same stock ammo. Best group wins. That’d be a good contest and CHEAP.
Get a gun maker to sponsor it ~ you’d get a level playing field and it would all come down to technique not wallet.
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I drive a car everyday. I like driving fast. Formula 1 is a car game, and it could be argued from my perspective as a daily car user that F1 is obscenely unrealistic.
But then again its a game and the point of games is to have a winner and push all the limits in the process.
The upside is that just like in F1, all the new equipment and techniques pioneered in gun games eventually trickles down into more pedestrian uses. Look at red dots. Once they were the height of race gun gamer wizardry, now they're commonplace and we're all the better for it.
If you want to shoot matches as hunting practice go for it, thats an excellent goal. But don't try to hold the rest of the field to your standards of what and what is not realistic.
But then again its a game and the point of games is to have a winner and push all the limits in the process.
The upside is that just like in F1, all the new equipment and techniques pioneered in gun games eventually trickles down into more pedestrian uses. Look at red dots. Once they were the height of race gun gamer wizardry, now they're commonplace and we're all the better for it.
If you want to shoot matches as hunting practice go for it, thats an excellent goal. But don't try to hold the rest of the field to your standards of what and what is not realistic.
I've got a lot of friends who are mil/SOF/sniper/etc. All of them run the same 20lb guns everyone else runs (or heavier) and none complain about it being unrealistic.
Exactly, PRS is a gun game just like USPSA is a gun game. PRS matches aren't preparing for Ragnorok. You want to be competitive at the open gun game? Play the game with your impractical space gun. Shoot matches with a silly open gun that you would never carry at work for business purposes due to weight and reliability. Shoot that shit and have fun banging steel in the wind. If that bothers you then stick to your principles and practice for the coming interesting times with a realistic slingshot and accept that you will probably not be competitive.
Hi,
Well this debate is and can go on pretty much forever but lets boil the PRS down to its' simplest form.
That form is a "GAME"... period...nothing else. Not training for Red Dawn X. Not training for Zombie Invasion. Not training for tyrannical government.
Games by designed are meant to be "Gamed"....No amount of planning can take the gaming out of a game. MD can try this and try that but at the end of the day. The best player of the game wins.
If you want the "stock car" version of the shooting world there are plenty of those organizations to handle that... F-Class, Palma, Service Rifle, etc etc but PRS is not that nor do they really compete with those.
Sincerely,
Theis
Well this debate is and can go on pretty much forever but lets boil the PRS down to its' simplest form.
That form is a "GAME"... period...nothing else. Not training for Red Dawn X. Not training for Zombie Invasion. Not training for tyrannical government.
Games by designed are meant to be "Gamed"....No amount of planning can take the gaming out of a game. MD can try this and try that but at the end of the day. The best player of the game wins.
If you want the "stock car" version of the shooting world there are plenty of those organizations to handle that... F-Class, Palma, Service Rifle, etc etc but PRS is not that nor do they really compete with those.
Sincerely,
Theis
I'll weigh in if only because this is something I'm trying to get invovled in... I've been away from the shooting sports for a good 10 years... So many changes over the years that I feel I am truly on the outside looking in...
I think inovation without more divisions or limitations will derail this PRS...I kinda agree with the OP ...from where I look PRS seems to be the most logical place for me to start but... Fuck its VERY intimidating and I've spent the better part of the past month investigating where the hell to enter this ... IF ONLY because I want to enter at the place that has the most level playing field. The best chance of being "competitive".. I have alimited budge like probablly most guys...
(Having a variety of different shooters( (Open,Production, Tac) in a squad I think is counter productive. but I digress.)
I think the best place to enter is the Tactical division ..here's why
The cartridge limitations... I think that levels the playing field more than anything. Why:
In the open division - take the best shooter... he's gonna shoot overall better with a 6Dasher than a 308
In the production division - same deal the 6's or the likes will 90% of the time over take the "308" types
From the outside looking in all you hear about the PRS is ... "what the pros use" "What the pro's shoot" You see very little of you can be competitive or you can better yourself in "X" division...
I'd love to see a Production Division with cartridge and gadget restriction... AKA your average "hunter type"... Maybe a "Practical Division" you see this in the handgun stuff.... more things leaning towards the praticality of life...
Very seldom do you see $15000 of stuff carried by one hunter into the field to fill the freezer.
However, you do see a guy with maybe his phone, Bino's, Spotting scope, weather gadget, precison rifle/scope, bipods and sometimes even a small bag shooting factory produced ammunition.
jus sayin'
I think inovation without more divisions or limitations will derail this PRS...I kinda agree with the OP ...from where I look PRS seems to be the most logical place for me to start but... Fuck its VERY intimidating and I've spent the better part of the past month investigating where the hell to enter this ... IF ONLY because I want to enter at the place that has the most level playing field. The best chance of being "competitive".. I have alimited budge like probablly most guys...
(Having a variety of different shooters( (Open,Production, Tac) in a squad I think is counter productive. but I digress.)
I think the best place to enter is the Tactical division ..here's why
The cartridge limitations... I think that levels the playing field more than anything. Why:
In the open division - take the best shooter... he's gonna shoot overall better with a 6Dasher than a 308
In the production division - same deal the 6's or the likes will 90% of the time over take the "308" types
From the outside looking in all you hear about the PRS is ... "what the pros use" "What the pro's shoot" You see very little of you can be competitive or you can better yourself in "X" division...
I'd love to see a Production Division with cartridge and gadget restriction... AKA your average "hunter type"... Maybe a "Practical Division" you see this in the handgun stuff.... more things leaning towards the praticality of life...
Very seldom do you see $15000 of stuff carried by one hunter into the field to fill the freezer.
However, you do see a guy with maybe his phone, Bino's, Spotting scope, weather gadget, precison rifle/scope, bipods and sometimes even a small bag shooting factory produced ammunition.
jus sayin'
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This boils down to:
“There needs to be more divisions so that I can be more “competitive” and win shit, because I’m new/old/not good enough/don’t practice enough/cheap.”
“Let’s create enough divisions so that everyone wins the prize they desire.”
“I want to be able to walk the table with the top shooters. It’s only fair.”
“There needs to be more divisions so that I can be more “competitive” and win shit, because I’m new/old/not good enough/don’t practice enough/cheap.”
“Let’s create enough divisions so that everyone wins the prize they desire.”
“I want to be able to walk the table with the top shooters. It’s only fair.”
I say it’s a game. Things change, gear changes. Get out and shoot cause you want to or don’t. Buy the gear or don’t.
I shoot it cause I enjoy the challenge, getting better and competing with friends. I have no delusions of being the best cause I don’t put in the amount of time needed. Would divisions/classifications help sure. It would help to make everyone feel better but in the overall standings it would stay the same.
But then again that’s my opinion and opinions are like assholes...... everyone has one but everyone believes theirs doesn’t stink.
Get out and just enjoy it.
I shoot it cause I enjoy the challenge, getting better and competing with friends. I have no delusions of being the best cause I don’t put in the amount of time needed. Would divisions/classifications help sure. It would help to make everyone feel better but in the overall standings it would stay the same.
But then again that’s my opinion and opinions are like assholes...... everyone has one but everyone believes theirs doesn’t stink.
Get out and just enjoy it.
I could give a rats ass about prizes... I'm more interested in that if I put in some work I can enter a division that has a relatively level playing field and on any given day I can at least hang with the hunt...
Hi,
Palma, F class and service rifle....
Nobody goes to a Judo tournament and expects it to function with boxing rules.
Sincerely,
Theis
There is no such thing as a level playing field. In a hypothetical situation: On one end of the spectrum you could have a spec class where everyone is using the gear you own right now. On the other end is open class as it exists now and you magically have all the high end gear in existence.
In either situation someone is putting in way more effort/time/money than you are, and you can't reasonably expect to "hang with the hunt..." until you take your efforts up a notch.
If the thing holding you back from even trying the sport is hesitance to try it with what you have then upgrade as you go, you can't ever expect to be in the hunt. You'll soon find out that a few thousand in upfront gear costs is just a drop in the bucket compared to the ammo cost, barrel cost and time needed to be competitive.
That may sound harsh but you need to realize that no amount of classes tailored to inexpensive equipment will help you against guys training harder than you.
Just an fyi there are lots (IME) of mil/Leo guys that shoot tac, and remember some of them get paid to shoot 308.
I love the ideas in this thread have seen some really good points!
I know I am "dreaming of the good ol days" but the point that is is a game makes alot of sence to me kthings you needed to be reminded of)
I guess my next big question is how do you handle the guys that want to be competitive but can't afford the 15k in ammo a year to do so?
Do you think this cost requirement to be in the top or be competitive will hurt the sport?
Interesting. I literally just texted my friend who has been an instructor for the SF sniper course for the better part of the last 3 years. He said the heaviest short action caliber rifle they currently use (M110) CAN tip the scale at 20 lbs when suppressed, with bipod, and night vision optics. More importantly (I think), he said YES, he would prefer it to be lighter: "I'd like to keep a rifle, scope, and supressor at sub-13 lbs if possible for a bolt rifle."
I get its a game. My preference and perspective is that I would rather it be a game more like football that develops some life skills than say video games which develop near zero life skills. I'm not concerned with all the other gear for all the same reasons guys have already listed, but I still think there is a real argument to be made for limiting rifle weight.
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I don't see how you really can address that (or why you would want to). You're talking about trying to regulate or correct for what folks do on their own time, in a effort to handicap the guys who want to put in the most effort (and $$ in ammo) to improve themselves. That seems pretty anti-competitive to me.
Besides, it's a constant that is true of every other shooting sport, and it hasn't hurt the growth of any of them. Want to be competitive in 3-gun at a national level? Better be prepared to spend plenty on ammo. USPSA? IDPA? Shotgun sports like Trap & Skeet? Same deal.
The club/regional series is perfect for the guys that don't want to spend 15k in ammo per year.
How the hell is this even a question? Next thing you'll want to arbitrarily impose a skill level cap. How about 10 MOA targets minimum so no one ever misses. Or once you win two matches you have to retire.
It'll be just like IDPA where everytime people start getting faster a new rule set comes out to slow down the people who practice.
I swear some of the guys on here that have yet to shoot a match think the whole world is out to get them so why bother trying until a class with their name on it is created. The excuses are getting flat out ridiculous.
My question is not to create a new set of rules, but just a question I like to hear thoughts on. I know I have hear a few complaints and people that left because they dont have the coin to play.
I like to ask questions to see if there something we can do to retain and keep growing this sport. I really do love the pr game but personally cant afford to play at the highest levels, and that is ok with me. I would NEVER want to see those that chose to spend the time and resources be punished..... all I am wondering is there a way to keep the competitive nature alive while not punishing the top guys.
I have always like the levels of uspsa where a guy can show up shoot and know where he is at with guys of the same "class" though I still believe class shouldn't come into play on the prize table more or less just on paper and just to help with giving people something to strive for until they get to that top level.... now to figure out how you break up classes
Hi,
BUT if the PRS game was designed more like football it still would not stop the issues of divisions this, divisions that. Or the look how much money he spends on that compared to what the "average" person spends on that.
Getting to top level of PRS GAME is definitely a lot cheaper than getting to to level of football GAME!!!
Strength & Conditioning Coach: Average $150 hour.
Dietitian: Average $100 hour.
Recovery & Relaxation Coach: Average $125 hour.
All with an average of 3 hours each PER DAY. And that is not counting the training camps they attend, etc etc.
Sincerely,
Theis
The gear race is as much about nothing. The guys that are at the top are at the top because they are the best. I was a state champ sporting clays shooter. To get there I shot 100K rounds a year for a few years. Coming from a shooting backround. I'm a "new" shooter to prs. I can make all the shots in ideal circumstances without a clock. That isn't the game though. To get above mediocre I know what kind of effort is needed. The people crying about the money. If you want to be good you'd find a way.
Dry fire and staying with a round long enough to know it's ballistics without an app or cheat sheet. I see guys that shoot a different cartridge every season and they can't make a wind call without their crutch. I'm back with the 308 simply because I know in my sleep when I see my shot what to hold.
I'm in it to have fun and I know I don't have the time to invest to be a top shooter.
As far as not having the gear. I have yet to go to a shoot and not have another shooter offer up a piece of gear that could be useful.
Winners are going to win and whiners are going to whine
Dry fire and staying with a round long enough to know it's ballistics without an app or cheat sheet. I see guys that shoot a different cartridge every season and they can't make a wind call without their crutch. I'm back with the 308 simply because I know in my sleep when I see my shot what to hold.
I'm in it to have fun and I know I don't have the time to invest to be a top shooter.
As far as not having the gear. I have yet to go to a shoot and not have another shooter offer up a piece of gear that could be useful.
Winners are going to win and whiners are going to whine
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Okay, so using uspsa as a comparison, let’s take a look shall we? I shot for a year or so, just to increase my handgun handling capability. I shot somewhere around 1000 rounds per month just to get half way decent. The guys that were winning the local matches, some of them national level shooters, were shooting at least 1000-2000 rounds per week. Some as much as 5000+ rounds per week!
Point being, classes/divisions/sub-divisions notwithstanding, if you want to be competitive for real, you have to put in the time and money. Otherwise, you accept your limitations and the results that go with them.
Or you can bitch on forums and try to change things so that it’s all “fair”, or “realistic”. Guys, I hate to break this to you, but, It’s...a...game...
Play by the rules or don’t. This isn’t Calvinball where you get to change the rules in your favor whenever you play.
Not looking for rules to be changed to make things more "fair" looking for ideas to keep people engaged and grow the sport, not bitching(some may reading it that way) just looking to challenge the idea that we can't do anything to make this sport more fun and engaging to all people and where the best shooter still wins. The more people we have the better it is for all IMO
Rimfire PRS matches are a ton of fun, require a lot less land to host than centerfire, and can be cheaper overall to participate in (though there are guys that spend as much on rimfire as centerfire).
If you belong to a PRS or NRL club you could encourage them to begin hosting 22lr matches, or even offer to serve as MD to get the ball rolling.
It looks like you're in the PNW, so there should be some clubs already running NRL22 matches near you.
I'm just piping in here to let you know that I shot the finale with only 1 bag and no tripod and beat you. Neener neener.
LOL exactly! It can be done without a truckload of gear! If TSA would have had their way I would have shown up without ANY bags hahaha.
Not in my experience, I’ve seen Vibbert win club matches shooting 308 against the open guys. A better shooter is a better shooter period, and running a TAC caliber like 308 is just going to expose the flaws of a poor shooter far more than the small calibers.
Side note, I have an idea for a PRS classification system.... not about gear, not about caliber. You get classified based on the total number of lifetime centerfire precision rounds that you’ve shot. There could be a division for all the guys who have shot 50-100k rounds, and a division where all the guys who never shoot can compete against each other. 
“Growing the Sport” and “Getting Publicity” are not compatible with keeping the time and expense down.
Look at comparable “new” sports... they start out on a grassroots DIY level, get more competitive, attract marketing dollars, get even more competitive and then the beginners bail and the sport declines.
Unless you institute levels like Master, Pro, Tyro, etc or introduce a handicap system or something to make it easier to start out.
Look at comparable “new” sports... they start out on a grassroots DIY level, get more competitive, attract marketing dollars, get even more competitive and then the beginners bail and the sport declines.
Unless you institute levels like Master, Pro, Tyro, etc or introduce a handicap system or something to make it easier to start out.
Agreed. I shoot my .223 trainer in a lot of club matches (most of our club matches are inside of 800 yards) and I don’t feel like I’m giving up anything. In fact, it’s such a light recoiling rifle it’s somewhat of an advantage. Maybe a different story south or west but in the Midwest with mild winds it makes quick work of medium range and in.
I'll chime in here as a newer PRS shooter. Last season being my first one. Guys at my local club matches run 223's in open class and finish top 5 rountinely againsy 6’s and 6.5’s. Definitely the shooter not the caliber. Don’t be intimidated. Show up with a true 1 moa or better rifle with good dope to 1k or at least 600, tactical scope, bipod, and ammo. You don’t even need a bag. Borrow one.
DONT WORRY ABOUT BEING COMPETITIVE. You won’t be. You could get all the hits you want on a square range and you’ll still f it up on your first official stage. Happens to most people when they start out. Myself included.
Go shoot a match and I’m sure 1 or a few of your opinions might change.
DONT WORRY ABOUT BEING COMPETITIVE. You won’t be. You could get all the hits you want on a square range and you’ll still f it up on your first official stage. Happens to most people when they start out. Myself included.
Go shoot a match and I’m sure 1 or a few of your opinions might change.
To all those that want a limit or handicap placed on shooting a heavy deer rifle at long distances, go shoot Service rifle. If you want restrictions so you can be competitive, shoot Service rifle. If you think "fundamentals" are the end-game, shoot Service rifle. If you think PRS is a rich man's sport because a tripod costs $1400, go shoot...nevermind, that isn't much cheaper. In reality, PRS is one of the cheapest American past-time sports. Just take all the dudes snowmobiling, racing motorcycles, drag racing, off-roading, etc. "A bag filled with sand costs $150 dollars....!
There's a post in here about tripods by @Alpine 338 That i completely agree with. I missed the boat on the multi quote so I'll just copy/ paste.
"Look at history, tripods have been used in the military, law enforcement, and hunting longer than many recognize, or will admit to. Yet, there are those in the sport that think it's some new gadget, and should be restricted or regulated. "
100%. I've never understood the issue with tripods. They've been inherent to smashing people in the face as long as purpose built sniper rifles. Why are they the devil?
YOU can't control how everyone learns or what instruction they have available to them. And that's not the point of PRS. To be the "fundamentals" qualification. Why is it on this sport to be the guardian of average joe's true upbringing? I've probably had more training on MMS fundamentals and provided more than most here. But so what? The zombies aren't attacking. We don't need a legion of civilian super-shooters well versed in "the fundamentals". It's just a game. There's so many golf references in this thread, i want to throw up. If you wan't to do battle with someone purely on the basis of "fundamentals" go shoot service rifle.
^^^^BOOM!!! This right here!
1. Who gives a shit what your friend thinks. (I was also an instructor there) I guarantee his philosophy is built on different reasons than PRS. not applicable to this discussion.
2. Life skills for what? The zombie attack isn't real. You aren't going to fight the enemy at the gates. If you don't shoot head targets at a match that are made of steel, what head targets are you going to shoot? The answer is none. What are you training for?
I saw Philip Velajos FB post about shooting PRS to beat folks at their own game instead of whining about the sport. He spoke about the greater purpose beyond PRS; about being a rifleman or a skilled shooter. I also struggled with many aspects of PRS in the beginning as a MIL guy. Much of civilian competition is contrived and "off the path" for the purpose of beating the other person rather than competing against yourself to be a better you. Here's something I realized: If i don't hunt with a rifle or shoot it in competition, it doesn't have a purpose. I'll end up selling it for something I want more. I can't plink; I just can't do it. It's pointless. So beyond that, there really isn't anything else to do in life with a rifle besides have a wet dream about the day that Red Dawn becomes a reality. You can become a better all-around marksman but you won't do anything with that skill beside shoot a deer or a competition. I get it, i pride myself on my MMS skills on a variety of weapons. I place as well in 3Gun as I do in PRS and I was a Master in IDPA many years ago without even trying for a summer. I am well versed with a pistol, carbine, and long gun. But what am I going to do with that in the civilian sector. Nothing. It goes nowhere. The knowledge and skill you have at off-roading or using a high-lift jack has more purpose than a bolt gun.
Some of us have, will, or currently work behind a rifle.
The "point of PRS" was to mimic practical situations. Sometimes it does a good job of that, and sometimes it doesn't.
You're not going to see anyone in a practical/tactical situation carrying around a 30lb rifle and a ton of gadgets. I think this is what the OP was referencing when he asked if the "spirit" of the sport/game was being left behind.
Not limiting things at some point is going to eventually get to the point where a shooter is barely on the rifle, if at all. Barely making his own wind calls as radar technology is evolving (will take a while).
Every sport/game has restrictions and typically for a reason.
Perfect example of how gear can and will make a huge difference:
Baseball. Give players aluminum bats and see what happens.
By your logic, we should take off restrictions of every sport/game out there. Since none of it matters.
Hell, the whole point of the Tactical Division was for guys to use their work rifle at the comps.
Now we have guys running around with 30+ lb .308 "winning" the tactical division.
Now we have guys running around with 30+ lb .308 "winning" the tactical division.
Hi,
Well everyone upset at someone using xzy equipment versus what should be used based on THEIR version of practical should remember that in the real world (You know..the sniping world that keeps getting referenced) that would be like being upset because abc department has better equipment than your jkl department and you telling said abc department that it is not "practical" for them to be using that equipment.
Maybe just make every stage "Practical" like this image, since it is based purely off REAL world utilization.
Or maybe this one..
Or this one...
How dare those guys bring that kind of equipment. Why can't they just show up and use a sling and 1 bag like everyone else??
Sincerely,
Theis
Well everyone upset at someone using xzy equipment versus what should be used based on THEIR version of practical should remember that in the real world (You know..the sniping world that keeps getting referenced) that would be like being upset because abc department has better equipment than your jkl department and you telling said abc department that it is not "practical" for them to be using that equipment.
Maybe just make every stage "Practical" like this image, since it is based purely off REAL world utilization.
Or maybe this one..
Or this one...
How dare those guys bring that kind of equipment. Why can't they just show up and use a sling and 1 bag like everyone else??
Sincerely,
Theis
I'm going to add the innovation we see in PRS is a great benefit to the men and women who do use a bolt gun for their job. The Arca rail the hog saddle The reticles zero stop mil/mil high speed turrets the pda's chrongraphs radars and all of it helps are LEO's and Brave men and women that actually do need every advantage!!
A young Marine, Soldier or Sailer deserves the best equipment and there is no better way to find it than giving a bunch of civilians a game in which they can blow up their ego if they find that magic item!
If you dn't like innovation go find a 03 springfield with a fixed 4x fine cross hair and run that for a season with ball ammo! Good luck managing that recoil over a course of fire
A young Marine, Soldier or Sailer deserves the best equipment and there is no better way to find it than giving a bunch of civilians a game in which they can blow up their ego if they find that magic item!
If you dn't like innovation go find a 03 springfield with a fixed 4x fine cross hair and run that for a season with ball ammo! Good luck managing that recoil over a course of fire
@THEIS
Great pics....cool stuff... now have them run to the next stage... and engage a few targets. Isn't that what they do for those set ups, run through multiple scenerios on time limits.
Great pics....cool stuff... now have them run to the next stage... and engage a few targets. Isn't that what they do for those set ups, run through multiple scenerios on time limits.
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