Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

[SPRINKLE]

Hey guys, I have been reading a bunch about people looking for a carry pistol. They ask about Glock, Sig ,Hk, well pretty much everything and most of the time someone says get a 1911 and forget the rest. Now before you go off the rocker understand I love the 1911. It feels good shoots good its a nice weapon. But it is a very advanced gun, now when I say advanced don't put yourself in that category just because you stand at the range and can shoot a 1" group at 10 yards, or because your a good rifle or carbine shot. The pistol is a whole new animal they have several different things going on at once that if not second nature and very fast you wont walk away. Lets start with beginning training. We would have guys girlfriends or wives show up and we would do training exercises where they would act like a victim or something to that effect and at some point, they would draw down on you. I cant tell you how many times I just froze up. After I fixed that, I would grab my gun to find I forgot to unsnap the holster. after I got that down I found I was forgetting to cant my gun to get it out of the holster. after that I found it was hard to just get my gun on the target. We did this hundreds of times for the first year by the end and still today 10 years later these steps are second nature to me. That said it is that way with most of us I can draw my gun get on target and shoot accurately in just about a second then put it back in the holster with out looking. This alone takes a lot of practice. Lets go in a Gunfight or 2 to see what happened.

Officer Traffic stop a year after I started.
He pulls a guy over walks to the car gets info walks back to run it looks up to notice the the guy getting out of the car with a pistol. He pulled his pistol a sig 220, shoots the ground, shot his door, shot his hood, then shot his hood again, then the ground, then the ground again,then the guy 2 times. He was a seasoned officer ave a very good shot. I have told this story to several normal (good shooters) who laugh and think they are so much better and Cops are so stupid but if you'll be serious and think about all that happened it could save your life.
Gunfight 2
A deceive friend of mine is at a hotel looking for a meth head hot check writer. After knocking on his door with no answer his partner walked back to the car in front of the hotel and he went to the front desk. As he was walking back he saw the suspect running out of his room pointing a gun at his unknowing partner. He draws his glock shoots behind his foot, in front of his foot, then hit the guy in the chest spinning him and then in the back.
So what I learned: Just because I was a good shot on a target didn't mean I was an advanced shooter. Gun fights are very fast and muscle memory (practice) must be second nature. I cant just buy a pistol take it to the range shoot a few boxes and start carrying it for defense. I have to practice 10 times as much with it unloaded, pulling it, getting it on target (mirror) and putting it back in the holster fast (slow and perfect first)You need to practice dry at home by yourself as much as you can just like you would carry it to the store. then when your proficient in that go to the range start slow again just like you would carry it, pull, get on target, shoot 2 times, holster it. Do this drill as much as you can before you advance.
Now to look at the weapon of choice.
Again I love the 1911 but remember how fast a gunfight is and how good shooters shot in them.
1. realize your life in in danger and need to act.
2.Move your clothing out of the way to get a hand on the pistol
3.unsnap holster
4. Draw pistol
5. Get on target.
6. realize that target is still a threat
7. Fire weapon

So back on the 1911 Taking the safety off is not a step I that is recommended to add you are doing all the above at the same time and the safety step can be deadly. I have seen time and time again people pull their 1911 in training and forget to take the safety off.
So face it are you going to put the time. I remember when I went to the 1911 (went back now) MY THUMB WAS SO SORE form practicing with it all day. Do you have access real stress training. And on top of that the light trigger after the safety was off is scary, you might draw and not have to shoot.

I now choose to live, yes have a 1911. but be good with a dummy gun and carry, sleep, what ever you do with it. and shoot the 1911 at the range. Remember to run everything you think you might use your gun for through your head and what you would do if it happened. and when/if it happens you'll know what to do..

Heard it said once you show your friends your 1911 and show your enemies your Glock!!

Im sure there are some other stories, especially You Operators who did it fist hand and with a M4 or a shotgun so add them we can all learn.
Good Luck Guys!!!!

 

[shootist2004]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

Ive competed in 400 USPSA matches with a 1911.
I dont think I will forget to release the safety if I get in a gunfight.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

go into a simunitions training scenario cold and try not to get lit up first go around......a very humbling experience

 

[300WSM]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

range fighting and gun fighting very different

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">go into a simunitions training scenario cold and try not to get lit up first go around......a very humbling experience </div></div>

If you ever have the chance to do simunitions, take it. I did it for VBSS and the act of shooting an M9 from the safety on position while clearing spaces is a great learning experience. By the end of the training the gun fights were much more abbreviated. It is also helpful for ammo management because the Blackwater guys would send us in with 7 rounds while the tangos had 3-4 full mags.

To the OP. Well thought out informative post. Hopefully newbies will use the search function on this one.

Josh

 

[woodspider]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">go into a simunitions training scenario cold and try not to get lit up first go around......a very humbling experience </div></div>
+1 been there done that and I completely agree!!

 

[Tactical one]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

You wouldn't believe the number of people that carry without one in the chamber because they don't feel it is safe. I try to teach them what it takes to draw, work the action and then get on target. I usually tell them they should carry a revolver.

 

[Victory]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

You might want to rethink your training a little. I am not a pistol guy, but after hours and hours of reflexive fire drills with my M4, I have learned that you will react exactly how you train. Drawing and firing a controlled pair, then putting the weapon back on safe and lowering it or re-holstering is bad practice.

You need to practice drawing, acquiring the target, fire until target is neutralized, reacquiring the target, scan 360 for secondary targets, check weapon, perform tactical reload, and then lower or holster your weapon. (This order is all METTC)

I had to break myself from the years of muscle memory that had me coming off of safe, firing a controlled pair, then automatically going back to safe and the low ready. If you do a shoot house that has targets that each require a different number of hits, you will learn what I am talking about.

SIMMS taught me that I don't like being 1 man without doing an explosive breach or using bangs.

Cheers

 

[i_Adam_i18]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive competed in 400 USPSA matches with a 1911.
I dont think I will forget to release the safety if I get in a gunfight. </div></div>

When was the last time one of those USPSA targets was shooting back at you? The body and mind do strange things in high stress situations, and I would think possibly losing your life would be a little more stressful than possibly losing the match.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You need to practice drawing, acquiring the target, fire until target is neutralized, reacquiring the target, scan 360 for secondary targets, check weapon, perform tactical reload, and then lower or holster your weapon. (This order is all METTC)</div></div>

+1.

 

[-Ace-]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: victory</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might want to rethink your training a little. I am not a pistol guy, but after hours and hours of reflexive fire drills with my M4, I have learned that you will react exactly how you train. Drawing and firing a controlled pair, then putting the weapon back on safe and lowering it or re-holstering is bad practice.

You need to practice drawing, acquiring the target, fire until target is neutralized, reacquiring the target, scan 360 for secondary targets, check weapon, perform tactical reload, and then lower or holster your weapon. (This order is all METTC)

</div></div>


Exactly, training to re holster fast and without looking is a horrible idea and completely unnecessary.


The cops you speak of are lucky to be alive, as they may be good shots on the range, but had very little if no high stress / force on force training. Sadly that isnt the only instance and lots of LEO's are killed because of lack of training and readiness. They think that the badge and gun make them invincible and training beyond basic quals isn't necessary.

 

[IdahoMike]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

Okay please dont crucifie me, but these all seem like scenarios for the LE Professional? You know "purposly putting yourself in harms way" What about every other swingin dick who CC's?

Ive gone through scenarios of what "could happen" road rage, shootings at walmart (happens alot here), someone holding you up, etc... Ive always thought that if some jackass was being crazy enough on the road, I dont have to pull over to see whats got him in a knot. And if some kid decides to shoot up the mall becasue his dad never told him he loves him, I can take cover (if possible) draw my weapon and take care of my family, friends, or whoever. Same with any other public place.

 

[-Ace-]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WASP7067</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive competed in 400 USPSA matches with a 1911.
I dont think I will forget to release the safety if I get in a gunfight. </div></div>

When was the last time one of those USPSA targets was shooting back at you? The body and mind do strange things in high stress situations, and I would think possibly losing your life would be a little more stressful than possibly losing the match.</div></div>

Good point, however since he has trained to draw and un-safety his 1911, that part is pretty much muscle memory (hopefully by now) Now all he needs to do (if he hasn't already) would be to do force on force training with the same pistol.

Theres all these arguements over which gun is best (you dont want a safety, you HAVE to have a Glock etc)

Imo, the type of pistol doesnt matter, as long as it goes bang every time you need it to. Whether you carry a 1911, xd, glock, hk, sig etc. If you dont train with it and make your defensive tactics muscle memory, then it doesn't matter if you carry a hi-point, you might not get a chance to get a shot off.

 

[SPRINKLE]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: victory</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might want to rethink your training a little. I am not a pistol guy, but after hours and hours of reflexive fire drills with my M4, I have learned that you will react exactly how you train. Drawing and firing a controlled pair, then putting the weapon back on safe and lowering it or re-holstering is bad practice.

You need to practice drawing, acquiring the target, fire until target is neutralized, reacquiring the target, scan 360 for secondary targets, check weapon, perform tactical reload, and then lower or holster your weapon. (This order is all METTC)

I had to break myself from the years of muscle memory that had me coming off of safe, firing a controlled pair, then automatically going back to safe and the low ready. If you do a shoot house that has targets that each require a different number of hits, you will learn what I am talking about.

SIMMS taught me that I don't like being 1 man without doing an explosive breach or using bangs.

Cheers


</div></div>

Your right we watched a video of a Cop who shot 2 reloaded (a full mag) shot 2 reloaded again shot 2 dropped the mag and got shot. His training for reloads which is standard around here got him shot. The thing I was stressing was being able to as the average Joe get to your loaded pistol where ever it is hidden and defend yourself. I have seen a lot of people put their gun in odd places that are completely unaccessible in a split second life and death situation. You can not just go off this article only to defend your self if needed I can start a drill page to cover everything. My point was gunfights are fast and you need to do the least amount as passable as fast as possible to survive. Thanks for adding that

 

[SPRINKLE]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IdahoMike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay please dont crucifie me, but these all seem like scenarios for the LE Professional? You know "purposly putting yourself in harms way" What about every other swingin dick who CC's?

Ive gone through scenarios of what "could happen" road rage, shootings at walmart (happens alot here), someone holding you up, etc... Ive always thought that if some jackass was being crazy enough on the road, I dont have to pull over to see whats got him in a knot. And if some kid decides to shoot up the mall becasue his dad never told him he loves him, I can take cover (if possible) draw my weapon and take care of my family, friends, or whoever. Same with any other public place.



</div></div>

The point was for people like you, not to contradict your
training but to add food for thought. The story of the Cop fights were not the point.. the point is.

How much do you practice in real time situations. Is how you have your CC rig set up practical? The stories are to tell you haw fast it happens and how your reaction can be far different than what you think.
Sure if your at WM and you see something and you can take cover you could have time to take your gun out of a back pack, or a leg holster or whatever. but If you have to use it in the blink of an eye, are you the guy who stops the threat? or you the next funeral?

 

[SPRINKLE]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AngelusMortis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WASP7067</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive competed in 400 USPSA matches with a 1911.
I dont think I will forget to release the safety if I get in a gunfight. </div></div>

When was the last time one of those USPSA targets was shooting back at you? The body and mind do strange things in high stress situations, and I would think possibly losing your life would be a little more stressful than possibly losing the match.</div></div>

Good point, however since he has trained to draw and un-safety his 1911, that part is pretty much muscle memory (hopefully by now) Now all he needs to do (if he hasn't already) would be to do force on force training with the same pistol.

Theres all these arguements over which gun is best (you dont want a safety, you HAVE to have a Glock etc)

Imo, the type of pistol doesnt matter, as long as it goes bang every time you need it to. Whether you carry a 1911, xd, glock, hk, sig etc. If you dont train with it and make your defensive tactics muscle memory, then it doesn't matter if you carry a hi-point, you might not get a chance to get a shot off. </div></div>


The other point was not what gun to shoot or not shoot shootist2004 I believe you prolly have the MM to be fine with a 1911. I am talking about the average Joe that wants to buy a CC pistol and they have little to no experience. so many people are getting a ccp and they should i am all for it. but they don't realize that shooting takes training. and its not just range time most of it is done at home. I just suggest that before you buy a pistol for carry you know how much time you are going to devote to training and buy according to your skills. Not your shooting skills she skills before you shoot and after.
Remember if there are 2 guns pulled someone isn't going home.

 

[ubet]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

I think this thread should get thread of the year, a HUGE eye opener!

 

[-Ace-]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

Someone will eventually bring this up, so I might as well as I am curious. Are you an instructor? Care to share what training you have had or what your background is?

 

[Nailz]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

A very good post, I don't carry a gun for a living and this definitely gives me a lot to think about and work on.

Thanks

 

[SPRINKLE]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AngelusMortis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone will eventually bring this up, so I might as well as I am curious. Are you an instructor? Care to share what training you have had or what your background is? </div></div>

No I am not a trainer, although I have trained many people and love doing it, but its a near imposable market to break into. I was a LEO for 5 years started as a reserve and went to full time. Where I got most of my experience, is shooting with and training under high speed operators. And it has been a passion of mine for years so I take it seriously We still train/shoot all the time and when we do we train for real life.
I really enjoy taking a person who wants to learn and watch them from barley hitting the target under stress to preforming flawlessly a few days later. My plans are to go to GPS and become a sniper instructor. the state of NM recognizes them. just to pad the resume lol!!
That said I am nothing special just wanted to open peoples eyes to some real life situations..

 

[Jayne]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">go into a simunitions training scenario cold and try not to get lit up first go around......a very humbling experience </div></div>

+1 for sure.

My first few sims runs were really eye opening. Couldn't feel the crappy trigger on the sim gun, couldn't see the sights well, couldn't even control my shots. The guy popped out and ran at me and I fired at center mass until slide lock (so that's why they gave us only 4 rounds per run... all those noobs blasting away burns up ammo!) then fell trying to dodge out of the way before he ran me down.

Took a while before I could be at all effective, then they started running classes at night, and in the rain. Throwing a rain-slick surefire across the room on the draw... it's hard to live down.

I will say though that I got my hits when needed. As they say you can't miss fast enough to do any good.

 

[paraman1]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

+1 on Force on Force training . We use Airsoft and while it may not be a real gunfight it will teach you some valuable things , plus real gunfights are often difficult to find and survive

You will be amazed at how often you shoot each other in the hands and how fast someone can close the gap before you get your pistol drawn .

USPSA can be great experience but I don't often carry in my Safariland race holster as its a bit conspicuous . The trigger manipulation , Manual of arms , Target acquisition , fast reloads and target to target transitions translate well but only the first few of those will probably be of use in an actual gunfight . Try shooting a few matches from concealment with one magazine extra and see how your scores hold up .

 

[richardj]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

Anyone that is planning to or could go in harms-way should read "on combat" it's eye opening..

RJ

 

[Tactical one]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

What I don't like about some of the current "pistol" matches I have seen are the guys are moving forward, engaging targets and doing magazine changes when they don't need to. Everything is based on someone's bone head set up for the match. You spend more time trying to remember where to move and when to change your mag than "stop the threat" and "scan for more" "break tunnel vision" "call 911". Running and gunning behind plywood and shooting card board and plates with all your cool shit on looks good on the outdoor channel. Get your Oaklyes slapped off your face by some BMF trying to take your shit, your coin, your ride, your wife, your kid... when your at bad breath range and see how cool your moves are. Clearing your concealment, accessing your handgun with a 3 finger grip, drawing your hand gun, rotating your elbow, joining with your support hand, acquiring your site picture, turning off the safety, pressing the trigger, all within a split second? You guys are right on with your analysis of training and how when all goes wrong, you revert to the basics. Load, pic up brass, mag change etc. Shoot to stop the the threat, reload and shoot to stop the threat.

 

[SPRINKLE]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

anyone else have anything to get us thinking? Im sure some of you have been in a gunfight let us know what you did, could of did, should of did, help us students out..

 

[ToddM]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

The best thing I think to take from these scenarios is most people do not practice near enough, and even those that do, are probably not practicing correctly or as well as they could be. We can always train better, threads like this help that information get out there. It's also imperative to realize that what you train the muscle memory and subconscious acts you use, will be most likely what you do when the shit hits the fan.

Guys that shoot matches are some of the worst because they think it will be just like when the buzzer goes at the match....it won't not even close you cannot simulate the stress and fight/flight response at any normal match. Force and force and some of the sim training are as close as you get. Tunnel vision, no fine motor skills, hearing shuts down, tremors, etc. none of that happens in a match, not even on a national level, there's no real threat and your brain knows it.

I've seen some great match shooters in combat sim courses put their first three rounds so far off target you'd be scared to stand behind them they are hyped up and they have a 2 pound hair trigger, that's IF they get the safety off. They aren't the only ones, everyone gets thrown for a loop the first few times, it's a real eye opener.

The NYPD was under 15% hits on average on gunfights in 2004/2005 discharge reports while some officers are not great shots on average most train and shoot fairly well, more so than the average guy carrying a gun that's for damn sure, if they can only do 15% in a gunfight what do you think the guy that never trains can do?

 

[Tburkes]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

Like Richardj said, if you want to know how the human body reacts in a violent confrontation you owe it to yourself to buy "On Combat" by LtCl. Dave Grossman.

He talks in detail about much of what has been alluded to here. He goes into detail about what happens to a human in a high stress life or death situation, from the Physiological to the psychological effects. From why it's common to crap your pants in a combat situation, to why cops have died because they had the muscle memory to shoot their pistol in a gun fight and try to put the empties in their pockets with the bad guy right in front of them.

I've read that book about three times and learn something new every time I read it.

An SAS operator friend of mine say "accuracy is more about the pucker factor than the pistol you're shooting"

 

[SPRINKLE]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

This is from Larry Vickers



"I have found that under conditions of stress a shooter will only be able to shoot to within roughly 50 % of the accuracy potential of a given weapon. And that is only for the best shooters; the majority will not even be close to that"

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical too</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You wouldn't believe the number of people that carry without one in the chamber because they don't feel it is safe. I try to teach them what it takes to draw, work the action and then get on target. I usually tell them they should carry a revolver. </div></div>

Having spent 4 years on a combat pistol team, with the 1911 - it is a true post - even after 4 years the first match or two where speed-draw was required- you inevitably forget to release the damn safety, and THen, AS MOST CIVILIANS WOULD DO - draw back the hammer.


I carry a 38 special revolver, in a coat pocket - no holster, back pocket - whatever...because I've trained MOUT, police, combat pistol and I KNOW that despite having had the training if TSHTF I want something I can point and shoot. Now my only drama is that I only get 5 shots.

My g/f LOVES her Kimber 1911 - but she agrees with me - in that she does not have full use of her left hand and the Kimber requires a bit of work for a quick draw, shoot, re-holster .. and she carries her own 38 Special. (Interesting that we both had these before we met)..


But a 38 special revolver with 129gr +P Federal Hydrashocks is the next best thing, at least she (and myself) stand a fighting chance of getting a shot off...

 

[Graham]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tsprink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen time and time again people pull their 1911 in training and forget to take the safety off.</div></div>Among seasoned shooters the real problem is disengaging the thumb safety reflexively on the draw and automatically placing the finger on the trigger before the use of deadly force is immediately necessary. And remember, if you are not shooting a match it's tap-rack-reassess, NOT tap-rack-BANG! I have seen officers and IPSC shooters just stand there in the open. Find cover, real cover, and get behind it.

 

[shane45]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

I dont know what to say. 50,000+ rounds trigger time on a 1911 (most of it IPSC so some stress induced) I have never ever failed to release the safety. With that being said I dont know how I wouldnt. I ride the gass pedal. I disengage about three quarters of the way up on presentation.

 

[Tactical one]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

There was a defensive shooting in my town and after about a week, I realized I knew the guy that did the shooting and use his story in all my classes. A bunch get together for cocktails every Thursday evening, (pattern), chick living upstairs in an apartment above the place they meet, chick has a boy friend that just got out of the pen on parole. Chick tells BF about rich boys getting together so BF sees an easy score. BF hits them about 20:00 and forces them into office to rob them. BF has a 38 revolver. CCW dude was carrying a 1911 in a milt sparks vsmax II. BF has them all lay down face first and starts taking their stuff. CCW dude draws and lays on his 1911. BF goes to CCW dude, checks pockets and finds milt sparks holster. BF wants to know where the gun is. CCW dude says he left it in the truck. BF grabs him, sticks revolver in back and pulls him up. CCW dude hits knees and both start shooting. BF shoots CCW dude through the side of the shirt, in the left shoulder and shoots both his hands. CCW dude shoots BF in hand and then can not shoot any more. CCW dude thinks he has a failure to feed. CCW dude drops to cover and tries to access. CCW dude realizes he can't shoot because both hands are injured and he can't operate the grip safety. BF is out of ammo and snapping his empty revolver at everyone in the room in a rage. CCW dude uses two hands and forces the pistol painfully so the grip safety releases and shoots BF through the sweat shirt. BF runs away. Cops show up and find BF via blood trail and tell CCW dude how proud they are of him.

 

[IdahoMike]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

tactical too,
what state are you in that lets someone CC where booze is sold as a primary business. (assuming this place is a bar) just wondering...

 

[Tactical one]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

No bar. Just a group getting together at a friends down town office. Very low crime area too.

 

[Tactical one]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IdahoMike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">tactical too,
what state are you in that lets someone CC where booze is sold as a primary business. (assuming this place is a bar) just wondering... </div></div>

Good point though.

 

[i_Adam_i18]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AngelusMortis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WASP7067</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive competed in 400 USPSA matches with a 1911.
I dont think I will forget to release the safety if I get in a gunfight. </div></div>

When was the last time one of those USPSA targets was shooting back at you? The body and mind do strange things in high stress situations, and I would think possibly losing your life would be a little more stressful than possibly losing the match.</div></div>

Good point, however since he has trained to draw and un-safety his 1911, that part is pretty much muscle memory (hopefully by now) Now all he needs to do (if he hasn't already) would be to do force on force training with the same pistol.

Theres all these arguements over which gun is best (you dont want a safety, you HAVE to have a Glock etc)

Imo, the type of pistol doesnt matter, as long as it goes bang every time you need it to. Whether you carry a 1911, xd, glock, hk, sig etc. If you dont train with it and make your defensive tactics muscle memory, then it doesn't matter if you carry a hi-point, you might not get a chance to get a shot off. </div></div>

true, it is all about muscle memory, and since he has done it so much, there is a good chance that will be the first thing that happens when he draws in any situation. However, if you haven't done 400 USPSA matches and don't have that engrained in your head, it's one more variable that could get you killed in a gunfight. Removing as many variables as possible is always a plus, especially when your life depends on it.

In high stress/panic situations, you will lose fine motor movement control. Being able to manipulate small things with your fingers will be next to impossible. It sounds wierd, but it's been proven. That's where muscle memory for things like trigger manipulation come in, as well as gross motor movements (things that involve the whole hand).

I've heard stories of cops back in the 70's that were found dead with brass in their pockets and a hands. On the range (using revolvers of course) they would empty the spent brass into their hands and put it in their pockets so they didn't have to pick it up later. You fight how you train.

 

[IdahoMike]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

I see the point now,

in your oppinion what is an accepatble CC set up as practical?

Ive thought about what the best gun for CC would be for me, 1. concealability, 2. stopping power, 3. ease of use. I know people say GLOCK GLOCK GLOCK. Honestly Iam like the guy from the BK Whopper commercials "I have small hands" so I went with a Defender which seems to be the not the best choice according to some becasue of the saftey issue. I have heard horror stories of people carrying 1911s cocked and locked and then taking a round in the leg etc... So I practice drawing and cocking at the same time as much as I can,drawing and accuisition in the mirror, re-loads etc... Is this a bad idea?

Always trying to learn things.

 

[-Ace-]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

Drawing and trying to cock is a bad idea, carry it cocked and locked, its not going to go off on its own and the majority of people that have accidents are the ones that are careless.

 

[SPRINKLE]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IdahoMike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see the point now,

in your oppinion what is an accepatble CC set up as practical?

Ive thought about what the best gun for CC would be for me, 1. concealability, 2. stopping power, 3. ease of use. I know people say GLOCK GLOCK GLOCK. Honestly Iam like the guy from the BK Whopper commercials "I have small hands" so I went with a Defender which seems to be the not the best choice according to some becasue of the saftey issue. I have heard horror stories of people carrying 1911s cocked and locked and then taking a round in the leg etc... So I practice drawing and cocking at the same time as much as I can,drawing and accuisition in the mirror, re-loads etc... Is this a bad idea?

Always trying to learn things. </div></div>

My thoughts are that when in a high stress situation you will not cock your gun. if you want to stay with that set up carry cocked and locked but practice so much your thumb hurts to touch the safety. I felt the same way you did 5 years ago. everyone was glock glock glock. I had a glock 22 at the time and decided to be different. so I bought Sig,HK,Wilson,Kimber the little one, keltek, springfield, walther, you name it I prolly had it. heres what I gained out of it. It doesnt matter what pistol I have in my hand I can shoot the crap out of it. heres what i carry now
Glock 23 ,lol I dont use a holster unless I really am doing something I feel I need it for. I put it in the front of my pants in my waistband right by my button on my jeans, and cover it with my shirt. You cant see it! you have control over it (unless you fight) then you need a retention holster but I dont plan to fight If I have a gun. It is the absolute fastest most deceiving way to get to your gun. people expect you to reach behind you of to your side. Try it its not bad you can sit stand run its nice. I chose it because it is a dummy gun pull it out pull the trigger till the guy falls. no thinking a monkey can do it. and in a fight as long as I can go home ill be the monkey. and it holds 13 rounds so im good to carry it and not another mag. Now this is for CC. but for other stuff I still shot a lot of guns 1911 included.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

If you are going to carry a 1911, and I do in the big city, perhaps taking the safety off is not the issue, do you carry it hammer back or not is the real question.

If you do not, myself included, you MIGHT forget to pull the hammer back.

My beretta, not a problem, start squeezing.

But if I'm just running to the store for late night, the 38 is the weapon of choice. Going to Seattle or Tacoma, 1911 of course. Lots of variables.


If he was that close to BF, and appled a left Uchi-Uke and a Nihon Nukite to the throat or eye socket then no shots would have been fired...

But again not everyone practices Karate, or shooting for that fact.


Good post. Now get to the Dojo, stop by the range, and then stop for a beer....don't forget to reload after the range.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

I am certainly no expert, and fortunately have never been in a gunfight, but it seems the best weapon (generally speaking), is the one you feel most comfortable with. For instance Ive owned a bunch of wheel guns, including a beautiful Colt Python, and couldnt hit the side of a barn with any of them...just never felt "right" in my hand. Ive tried many semi-autos, Glocks, Sigs, S&Ws, and the only one that really "fits" is the 1911, especially the Colt Commandet. With one of those its like Zen and the art of shooting...I can hit whatever I point it at the first shot, but the more i "concentrate" the more the bullets start to wander around. So is it the best weapon....subjective question....for me it is because it works for me.

My 2 cents.

 

[woodspider]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

Good thread alot of things to think about !!

 

[-Ace-]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

It all comes down to the simple fact that, anyone who chooses to carry, needs to go a step beyond just buying a gun. You have to train, train, train, (and get the right training, dont just buy a video or watch youtube) If you dont, then all you are is a target with a gun.

As far as not planning on fighting, I dont like to fight and I really dont like being hit, but in the real world you never know whats going to happen, and bad guys dont come at you like you see in some personal defense classes, Where a bg is coming at you with a knife raised high in the air and gives you time to react. I train like a mutt, Braz Jiu jitsu, Krav Maga / CKM, because the fight will most likely go to the ground, and you may not be able to draw.

Weapon retention techniques is another important part of self defense.

Shit happens fast and the only thing you can do is react, the predator always starts off with the upper hand because he has the element of surprise.

 

[IdahoMike]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tsprink</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IdahoMike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see the point now,

in your oppinion what is an accepatble CC set up as practical?

Ive thought about what the best gun for CC would be for me, 1. concealability, 2. stopping power, 3. ease of use. I know people say GLOCK GLOCK GLOCK. Honestly Iam like the guy from the BK Whopper commercials "I have small hands" so I went with a Defender which seems to be the not the best choice according to some becasue of the saftey issue. I have heard horror stories of people carrying 1911s cocked and locked and then taking a round in the leg etc... So I practice drawing and cocking at the same time as much as I can,drawing and accuisition in the mirror, re-loads etc... Is this a bad idea?

Always trying to learn things. </div></div>

My thoughts are that when in a high stress situation you will not cock your gun. if you want to stay with that set up carry cocked and locked but practice so much your thumb hurts to touch the safety. I felt the same way you did 5 years ago. everyone was glock glock glock. I had a glock 22 at the time and decided to be different. so I bought Sig,HK,Wilson,Kimber the little one, keltek, springfield, walther, you name it I prolly had it. heres what I gained out of it. It doesnt matter what pistol I have in my hand I can shoot the crap out of it. heres what i carry now
Glock 23 ,lol I dont use a holster unless I really am doing something I feel I need it for. I put it in the front of my pants in my waistband right by my button on my jeans, and cover it with my shirt. You cant see it! you have control over it (unless you fight) then you need a retention holster but I dont plan to fight If I have a gun. It is the absolute fastest most deceiving way to get to your gun. people expect you to reach behind you of to your side. Try it its not bad you can sit stand run its nice. I chose it because it is a dummy gun pull it out pull the trigger till the guy falls. no thinking a monkey can do it. and in a fight as long as I can go home ill be the monkey. and it holds 13 rounds so im good to carry it and not another mag. Now this is for CC. but for other stuff I still shot a lot of guns 1911 included.</div></div>

I did a few practice draws cocked and locked in the mirror a few minutes ago and forgot to take the saftey off like the second draw SON OF A BITCH! Practice practice practice.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AngelusMortis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I train like a mutt, Braz Jiu jitsu, Krav Maga / CKM, because the fight will most likely go to the ground, and you may not be able to draw.

Weapon retention techniques is another important part of self defense.

Shit happens fast and the only thing you can do is react, the predator always starts off with the upper hand because he has the element of surprise. </div></div>


Agreed but disagree - depends on the style - we train (Shotokan Karate) to stay off the ground and even when we do end up ON the ground we train repetitively on how to remove yourself from an opponent, or if not possible then apply a technique that ensures the victory - so many pressure points on the human body, every place you touch has one.

temple - deadly
nose - you win (upward pressure under the nose)
Arm Pit - deadly
Eyes - you win
Throat - you win, deadly
Groin, thigh, elbow, wrist, fingers, FINGER tips, jawline, ears, 4th vertebrae, etc etc..

There are something like 168 pressure points that we use...and at 1/4 power they hurt beyond belief, at full power, I do not want to find out...

I teach women, EYES then throat. No woman should ever be raped if she can free one hand and remove the attackers eyeball.


The age old adage about "If you cannot see you cannot fight" - applies to 99% of the people (We fight blindfolded occasionally) - eyes are such a simple target.


But in the end, there are times where throwing one's wallet is a perfectly acceptable solution, life is precious, too precious.

 

[SPRINKLE]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

+1 on the CKM I know a great trainer here where I am at and if not for the wife (me not being home much) I would still be it. but going back to the topic. I have fought a lot in life more that the average guy so I understand how it may come on with out wanting it. But I am aware of my situation and the last thing you need in a fight is to drop your pistol so, if I think I might be in an area where I feel a fight could happen I take a holster. Just my preference. But inside my pants is still my favorite way to carry..

 

[ToddM]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

Many people can shoot the 1911 with a light crisp trigger better than the polymer guns or revolvers. Just like most people can shoot a 2oz benchrest rifle trigger better than a 4 pound hunting trigger. While I agree that the 1911 platform "just fits" me perfectly, and I shoot it in controlled/match circumstances better than a .357 shorty or a glock. However, both of those weapons are easier and faster to bring into action than a 1911, and require less manipulation to do so, and depending on the 1911 a case for reliability could be made as well. If I was unwilling to carry a 1911 cocked and locked, I would never carry one, find something you are comfortable carrying that is ready to go.

If one puts in the effort you can train to be more than efficient accuracy wise with most any gun. The glock 9/40 grips are not much better than the 1911, different angle yes, and there are grips out for revolvers that will fit about any hand from tiny to huge. I can remember old police detectives consistently hitting body targets with subnose 38's at 50+ yards, some at 100.

Injecting new practice is important as well, every gunfight is going to be different, so while some things are good to practice thousands of times the same way it's important to understand that other things practiced too much are bad in the wrong situaton. Take for instance the putting brass in your hand during range reloads, or never letting your mags drop free, or always doing the same malfunction drills. (for example clear drill, and reassess instead of clear and continue firing). Shooting on the move is another one, but not just side to side or forward backward you need to be able to move in all directions, and it's important you try to do so in situations that force you at the time to decide what direction based on your surroundings not just what you practice on the open range.

The other big issue is hand to hand, because the guy might be right in your face before things escalate. The point someone made about closing distance is huge. You can figure with good practice you can draw and fire from concealment around 1-2 seconds, and that's with a lot of practice and a good setup. Have someone you know stand 10' away from you and charge you, in 2 seconds they can be on top of you easy, even if they are not fast, most can cover twice that distance in 2 seconds. Considering most gunfight happen under 20' just about anyone can be on you in the time it takes you to draw and fire if they decide to charge you. So weapon retention and defense in close quarters is required and it's a huge area most people overlook. They figure if they have a gun they don't need to worry about it.

 

[toddnjoy]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

I live in a very small community way up in north idaho and i have to say even though i just graduated from the academy and hungry for more training there just is'nt very many available choices for training in this area and even when there is it's miles away and my shift is never the same and the department only has us qual once a year even then its all of about an hour of shooting and they dont provide much for practice ammo s i have to buy it my self and up here it's very hard to come by. I really want as much training as i can get so how dose one accomplish this and not put themselves in the money pit.

 

[Antebellum]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

Well as I am a newb, I was wondering had anyone here been involved in a shooting? I myself have not and don't ever want to be, but as I read through this thread I saw a lot of comments and a lot training advice. The only experience I have is a few years in corrections and law enforcement. During those times I never drew my weapon for any reason other than practice or quals. So my personal opinion is whatever gun or tactic you feel makes you safer, go for it. What works for one may not work for all.

 

[shane45]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

Whatever you do, dont carry a 1911 hammer down on a loaded chamber on any 70 series 1911's. Other than that hammer down begs a ND. Condition three is not my cup of tea either for too many reasons to list!

 

[Winny]

Re: Inside a Gunfight. How to be ready

I was involved in an on duty shoot several years back on a traffic stop. My oponion..... I can tell you muscle memory is key, and pistol matches can simulate some physical aspects, but not the mental aspects of the real deal.

In my experience, and my experience only, it happened fast, but it seems like everything was in slow motion for a several seconds. I saw my front sight, the weapon discharge sounded like a muffled cap gun, and I never felt the recoil of my weapon. I'm sure that there are some more combat experienced members here who may have had the same or different sensations.