Into to Precision Rimfire Shooting

[ItsChippendale]

Hey everybody, i'm picking up a 22lr trainer rifle to supplement my PRS training. I'm going to pick up a CZ-455 PVT 24". From what i understand, they're are a lot of nuances to precision rimfire shooting. i.e. cleaning regiments, ammo, etc. i looking around for other fourms on the topic, but came up with no specific post on it. So my idea is to make a centralized point for everyone's general tips and tricks, something that would be worthy of being stickied in this section. so here's the topics

-Cleaning regimens, i.e. round counts/ clean between different brands of ammo?
-Best brands/types of for precision?
-Realistic Max range? 400yds?
-Rifle setup does/don't
-Best bang for buck, gun mods
-Recommend scope base angle, manufactures?
-Anything you guys thing a new rimfire shooter should know?

Thanks guys!!

 

[Shootlong]

Looking forward to some interesting reading, lot of talented shooters on this site.

 

[missed]

I setup a CZ452 for it. The ranch I have access to I can shoot 500yds anytime, so the rimfire makes for some good fun. I have a 20MOA base on it with a Burris XTR2 3-15 on it, in a Manners T4A, there is a Timney trigger on it, I need to rework the bolt knob on it still. Hopefully one of these days I will come up with a solution to use AICS size mags on it for a closer simulation to the CF rifle. I usually shoot it out to 300 yards with Norma Tac. There is a variety of 1/2-1 moa targets out there. It has been a bunch of fun, suppressor has made it even more fun.

 

[JG26_Irish]

For PRS practice, a mag fed repeater that has 10rd or larger optional mags available is a plus. Reliable, accurate basic platform is important but probably does not need to be capable of shooting 1/4 MOA at 50y. Spend more on the scope than anything else. A FFP optic is a big help when dialing ranges from <50y out to 300y or longer. Makes it faster when necessary to adjust on the fly. 3-12x or 6-24x seems to be about right. Good ammo that your rifle likes is a must. Great ammo that your rifle likes is a bonus. Not a must but nice to have. Lapua, RWS, Eley all come to mind. Wolf/SK also. Once you choose your ammo, develop an iron-clad data sheet with the dope for the rifle from 50y to 300y in 50y increments using both the turrets and the recticle so that you have the option to hold over or dial in for each given tgt. When faced with 5-6 long range tgts all at different ranges and a stage with a short time limit, the ability to hold over on some of them with confidence will save time. Trigger needs to be good but safe. You will move and shoot at times and nobody wants an AD. Adjustables like the Anschutz or the Savage are good and do not require mods. Laser range finder is a plus. A good bipod that is solid and stable is worth it but you will just as often be shooting without it either off-hand or from an improvised rest. 25 MOA DIP rail is a must. Even with that, I run out of up adjustment at about 250y distance. Had us use hold over to get the rest which works fine. That was with std vel tgt ammo. Something faster like CCI mini-mags would allow for less up adjustment. They are not match grade but shoot OK and "Practical Accuracy" is what is needed. It is one way to compromise for less than ideal optics/mount and still have a workable rig.

#1 tip/trick - Hone the instrument between your ears. Practice. Not just shooting but getting into position to shoot and quickly and confidently making ballistic calcs on the fly, no matter how you do them. How to quickly and repeatably dial up and down on the turrets to get back to zero and to dial up for long range tgts. Be able to do it in your sleep. For example, how many MOA and Mils does your rig move for one full turn of the top turret? 1/2? 1/4?, two turns? Max? How is your recticle set up? Mil-Dot, MOA? other? Know how to use it. Ideally, your 22 rigs optic is identical to your PRS rig to make all that practice more useful Learn the wind rose and how to apply it It can become a significant variable. Have fun.

Irish

 

[ItsChippendale]

I setup a CZ452 for it. The ranch I have access to I can shoot 500yds anytime, so the rimfire makes for some good fun. I have a 20MOA base on it with a Burris XTR2 3-15 on it, in a Manners T4A, there is a Timney trigger on it, I need to rework the bolt knob on it still. Hopefully one of these days I will come up with a solution to use AICS size mags on it for a closer simulation to the CF rifle. I usually shoot it out to 300 yards with Norma Tac. There is a variety of 1/2-1 moa targets out there. It has been a bunch of fun, suppressor has made it even more fun.

Hey that's the scope I plan on useing, except 4-20, how far in yards till u run out I adjustment? I'm currently trying to get a company to make me a custom 30 MOA rail for the 455 I plan on getting

 

[...]

-Cleaning regimens, i.e. round counts/ clean between different brands of ammo?
-Best brands/types of for precision?
-Realistic Max range? 400yds?
-Rifle setup does/don't
-Best bang for buck, gun mods
-Recommend scope base angle, manufactures?
-Anything you guys thing a new rimfire shooter should know?

Thanks guys!!

1) you never clean them.....ever......maybe once every couple years honestly.......the wax lube can gum up the bolt, so scrub that occasionally....but leave the barrel alone
2) Eley or Lapua......wolf if youre cheap.
3) more like 200yds....300 if youre pushing it
4) same as centerfire really
5) good glass and ammo........
6) 20 MOA if you plan on shooting past 100 yds.
7) find a good lot of rimfire ammo and buy all of it that you can afford.

 

[Hookturnr]

1) you never clean them.....ever......maybe once every couple years honestly.
2) Eley or Lapua......wolf if youre cheap.
3) more like 200yds....300 if youre pushing it
4) same as centerfire really
5) good glass and ammo........
6) 20 MOA if you plan on shooting past 100 yds.
7) find a good lot of rimfire ammo and buy all of it that you can afford.

1. Some of the best in the business clean spotless after every 20 rds. I personally clean about every 200 rds. for the type of matches I shoot.
Check out this link http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html

2. Not necessarily Eley or Lapua...my match gun shoots best and most consistent with Norma Match, My other target gun absolutely loves RWS R50. I get equivalent performance with Lapua Center X but no better and far worse with every Eley product i have tried in both guns

3. 300 yds accurately is well within the realm. At the Eley PRC matches we're shooting steel from 40yds to 300yds and some of us are cleaning the long range stages in changing winds

4...this statement I tend to agree with

5. it's going to take around 13mils to get to 300 yds with target ammo, buy your glass accordingly. I'm using a 25moa rail with a Vortex HST on top and I can dial to 375yds before needing to holdover

6. 20 MOA is good, 25MOA is better

7. Test a bunch of different brands and price points of ammo...CCI SV and CCI subsonic segmented HP both shoot very well in both of my comp guns and they shoot nearly identical POI to my match ammo.

 

[lou400a]

I setup a CZ452 for it. The ranch I have access to I can shoot 500yds anytime, so the rimfire makes for some good fun. I have a 20MOA base on it with a Burris XTR2 3-15 on it, in a Manners T4A, there is a Timney trigger on it, I need to rework the bolt knob on it still. Hopefully one of these days I will come up with a solution to use AICS size mags on it for a closer simulation to the CF rifle. I usually shoot it out to 300 yards with Norma Tac. There is a variety of 1/2-1 moa targets out there. It has been a bunch of fun, suppressor has made it even more fun.

Would love to see your setup. I'm running one in a modified B&C stock and waiting for my scope to arrive. I was going to use the 4-20 XTR or 4.5-18 LRHS, but I've decided to go with Tango 6 3-18. It'll focus down to 25 yards compared to 50 on the others.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Besides the above, for the 455 I'd look at the 'Yo Dave' trigger. I really think it transforms the rifle into a complete trainer. 300 yards seems to be too far, like the bullets are being thrown.

Wolf Match Extra does just fine.

 

[...]

1. Some of the best in the business clean spotless after every 20 rds. I personally clean about every 200 rds. for the type of matches I shoot.
Check out this link http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html

2. Not necessarily Eley or Lapua...my match gun shoots best and most consistent with Norma Match, My other target gun absolutely loves RWS R50. I get equivalent performance with Lapua Center X but no better and far worse with every Eley product i have tried in both guns

3. 300 yds accurately is well within the realm. At the Eley PRC matches we're shooting steel from 40yds to 300yds and some of us are cleaning the long range stages in changing winds

4...this statement I tend to agree with

5. it's going to take around 13mils to get to 300 yds with target ammo, buy your glass accordingly. I'm using a 25moa rail with a Vortex HST on top and I can dial to 375yds before needing to holdover

6. 20 MOA is good, 25MOA is better

7. Test a bunch of different brands and price points of ammo...CCI SV and CCI subsonic segmented HP both shoot very well in both of my comp guns and they shoot nearly identical POI to my match ammo.

yeah, i mean ever shoot has thier own cleaning regiment.....and theyre all different........but the reason high level shooters like Uptagraft, Wigger, Kempley, Nevius, clean their rifles regularly isnt because a dirty rifle is necessarily detrimental to accuracy.....its because like all match shooters, they are paranoid, and dont want their accuracy to suddenly drop during a match......so to them the piece of mind is worth the effort.

im a little more comfortable with a dirty rifle, because that what im used to.......when i shot NCAA, my rifle was cleaned once in 4 years.....never had an issue then.........and my current match rifle has over 1K rounds on it.......still able to hold center X without issue.....


and regarding ammo.....yeah, there are a bunch of choices thatll shoot........i just named the most popular choices........RWS is fine ammo......honestly never shot Norma so i cant say.

 

[JG26_Irish]

1) you never clean them.....ever......maybe once every couple years honestly.......the wax lube can gum up the bolt, so scrub that occasionally....but leave the barrel alone
If you do not see a benefit to cleaning the bbl, your rig is not accurate enough for PRS or to notice. You will be able to measure it in a precision rifle from a bench on a dead calm day. I used to not clean them as well until I owned a truly accurate 22lr.. A precision rimfire will begin to degrade after 200+ rds depending on the bbl. Clean them after each outing and then reseason with 20rds. Use high quality cleaning rod and clean from breach end only.


2) Eley or Lapua......wolf if youre cheap.
Every rifle is different. I agree with these but RWS is another good one. Wolf is made by Lapua and some of the old lots of Wolf were as good as CX or better in some rifles. I consistently get good results with Lapua CX and Midas+


3) more like 200yds....300 if youre pushing it
300y is a realistic shot. It is not easy and takes some effort to learn how to do it.


4) same as centerfire really
Agreed


5) good glass and ammo........
Agreed


6) 20 MOA if you plan on shooting past 100 yds.
More if you plan on shooting to 300y


7) find a good lot of rimfire ammo and buy all of it that you can afford.

I really do not see that much variance between lots of Lapua ammo. They may not be as good as the best Eley but they are consistently able to do the same thing over and over What I am seeing with all 22lr ammo is a slow degradation in accuracy after about 12-18 months in storage. It is not linear and may even stop after a while but I see more flyers in older ammo. I buy a few bricks at a time so that I will be working with fresh ammo most of the time and use the older stuff for practice if any is left over. This is a small difference and frankly in most PRS type shooting you would not even be able to see it. Only in benchrest stages.

 

[...]

If you do not see a benefit to cleaning the bbl, your rig is not accurate enough for PRS or to notice. You will be able to measure it in a precision rifle from a bench on a dead calm day. I used to not clean them as well until I owned a truly accurate 22lr.. A precision rimfire will begin to degrade after 200+ rds depending on the bbl. Clean them after each outing and then reseason with 20rds. Use high quality cleaning rod and clean from breach end only.

i literally shot this from supported prone at 100 a week or so ago...... MOOOOOORE than accurate for PRS.




reason for the 3 fliers......my buttstock was a 2x4




over 1K down the pipe.......i mean, if you want to clean, then by all means........if you do it properly its not gonna cause any issues...........personally i feel its not worth the effort.

 

[TimK]

I get to shoot at the OTC in Colorado Springs on a regular basis. Occasionally, I shoot right alongside america's top shooters. Without exception, every one I've watched has scrubbed the bore immediately upon cessation of shooting while the barrel and lube are still warm. Doesn't mean they're right, but there is a lot of accumulated knowledge in that building.

I clean every 200 or so. I use the Eley protocol that can be found on their website.

Lot testing can can be a big deal. See a thread I started here a few months ago. If you get serious about it, send your stick off to Lapua or Eley and get it tested.

300+ yards is not unreasonable. We have a 5 or 6" plate at 300 at our local spot, and it's easy enough to hit it every time if the wind is steady. I've shot to 425 once. Groups were about the size of a basketball, and we were holding at the bottom of the reticle. It was fun, but not accurate enough to really be anything but a novelty. At that rage, you'd better be shooting into a talcum powder backstop or you'll never see where the bullet hit.

 

[djdilliodon]

When you start running a true match chamber, you'll see real quick that cleaning is a must! In a factory barrel you can go much further before it's required but it's wise to do it in intervals to prevent a carbon ring. How often really depends on the rifle and in no way can you compare a factory pipe and chamber to a match barrel with a match chamber.

 

[Kadams1563]

^^^ listen to that guy. He is pretty much the king on rimfire CZ's.

If you haven't seen his builds I suggest you look into them. Amazing work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[missed]

^^^ listen to that guy. He is pretty much the king on rimfire CZ's.

If you haven't seen his builds I suggest you look into them. Amazing work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well in that case how much to put a new barrel on my 452?????

 

[Kadams1563]

Can't you replace barrels yourself?

I haven't looked into the 452 that much but I thought it used the same screw system as the 455.

I might be wrong though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[missed]

No there direct thread like most CF guns 20mmx1.25 pitch. I just don't have the gears to handle metric threading for my lathe, nor have I found any, I'll have to have them made or setup servo driven threading. The shop I used to be able to use there CNC's do not allow any firearm related parts in the shop after an asshole employee that was making pallets of oil filter adapters and diy supressor parts.

 

[justin amateur]

[h=2]Precision Rimfire Shooting[/h]
That right there, combined with distances beyond 50 yards, is an oxymoron.
Ok, sure, you can produce some tight groups consistently at 50 yards,
and some occasional tight groups at 100 yards, but not consistently.
200 yards and beyond? Only in y'er dreams. Why? It's rimfire.
We have no control over ammo quality, other than to find and buy the best we can.
I've been punching paper at 100 and 200 yards for a few years now,
in order to understand what's happening at the target, I shoot across a chronograph.
It's the only way I can tell if it was me or the ammunition that caused those strays.

Quick rule of thumb:

10 fps difference in mv with a match grade 22lr produces 1/4 inch of vertical spread at 100 yards.
1 fps mv difference at 200 yards shows up a 1/10 inch of vertical spread.
At 300 yards that same 1 fps difference in mv causes about 7/16 inch of difference in vertical poi.

I use a ballistic chronograph every trip to the range.
The top ammunition from RWS, Lapua and Eley, shipped from Champchoice, Grafs, Killoughs
shows about 40 fps ES in a box of 50 rounds, with an SD of 10 to 12 fps.
That means at 100 yards you can expect 1 inch of vertical spread from a box of match 22lr.
At 200 yards you're going to see 4 inches of vertical and at 300 yards about 18 inches of vertical.
That's before taking into account wind, mirage, rifle, setup and shooter skill.
I don't consider 2 moa at 200 and 6 moa at 300 yards to be precision shooting.
It's fun, but it is not precision shooting.

 

[Rolltide]

It's hard to argue with real world data. Justin has it nailed from my experience. One other thing about the ammo choices that I'm sure you know but just in case, the main thing we're supposed to be buying with match ammo is consistency. Sure, certain rifles may like cheaper ammo and shoot some exceptional groups from time to time with it, but there is no way to know when that flyer will jump out... Even using Justin's numbers, which he has clearly spent time and money compiling, show the challenges faced when using what is marketed as the best rimfire ammo out there.

Rimfires are a ton of fun, but I've had times where all I could do is scratch my head and call it a day.

 

[djdilliodon]

Justin makes a valid point that ammo can easily become your brick wall. Vertical can eat you alive when pushing the distance with a 22 LR even with match ammo. One thing that is certain that there is match ammo that is indeed consistent. The issue is most sporting rifles aren't capable to take advantage of it due to poor ignition. Poor ignition can make even the best lots of ammo look like total dog shnit over the chrony. It takes a lot of work on a factory sporter to bring it to a level that is decent. Some factory sporters can only be tweaked so far as the design is the limiting factor. This is why what you start with as the basis of your build is important. Many of us don't have the luxury to start with a $1400 plus dollar action but not all budget sporters are created equal.

 

[djdilliodon]

Well in that case how much to put a new barrel on my 452?????

Pull the barrel first and then we can talk . After you pull it, insert the bolt and make sure it's not binding.

 

[missed]

Pull the barrel first and then we can talk . After you pull it, insert the bolt and make sure it's not binding.

I was planning on cutting it off with the bandsaw, then put it in the lathe and gently work the remaining shoulder off to the action face to relieve the tension on the threads. Have you run into them where that approach doesn't get the job done?

 

[JG26_Irish]

Attached are a couple of old pics of 5sh groups at 50y and 100y with one of my old Remingtons. It is true that it is a single shot and the scope is a 36x and is completely NOT the set up for rimfire PRS but it does highlight what can be accomplished shooting from a supported prone or bench position with good ammo and a precision 22lr rifle. I will freely admit that the more typical 100y group with this rifle is closer to 1/2" but it did shoot the group in the pic and is surprisingly accurate even when using that old Lapua CX ammo.

The last two pics were from an old Anschutz rifle topped with a 20x Unertl at 50y. Each group was 5sh including the sighters in the upper left of the tgt. For whatever reason that particular rifle has never been quite as good at 100y but still will ave <1"

Irish

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I agree with Justin, but it does seem like 4 inches at 200 yards might be a bit on the high side- but granted, not by much and really dependent on the ammo. I find that gun and ammo temp, maybe more than air temp give some pretty good vertical deltas.

We all look at muzzle vel, there are days I want to set up my chrono at 100-150 yards and see if bullet differences make a difference.

on the 2 mile, Tubb is using a magneto see the effect of mv on impact point.

 

[justin amateur]

4 inches at 200 yards might be a bit on the high side

Easy enough to verify for your locale with a ballistic calculator.
Time of flight and gravity give the drop for the distance being shot.

 

[Jhayesvw]

I run a .22 PRS style match in tucson AZ. Our range is 0-200 yards. It works out well.

The top guys here (anschutz, Kidd, etc rifles) only clean their chambers. They don't clean the bore. Like almost never.

Brands of ammo are already mentioned. I like SK standard + and CCI SV for affordable and decent ammo.

Everything else has been mentioned except that you can go out, have a lot of fun and learn positions with just about any rifle/scope setup. Will you win? Probably not. But you will have a good time.

Get an optic that is similar in reticle to your Centerfire worth as much internal elevation as possible.
A 20 MOA base should work fine.

Enjoy.

 

[polish handgunner]

I added a 20moa to my old Marlin 39A "mountie" and added a Vortex 6x24 mil dot scope.
For my twin 9 year old grandsons it works great for banging metal at 242 yards!

 

[flatland1]

I received an Athlon Ares 4.5-27x50 mil scope a week or so ago that'd been backordered since they announced this line of scopes. I think the glass quality is pretty good, as is the reticle. But what makes me want to get another one is that the parallax knob goes down to 25yds, which would make it work well with 22RF outdoors. Would want something that would focus down to 10-15yds if shooting indoors, but I don't do that often enough to give it much thought.

I have Athlon Cronus 4.5-29x56 mil scopes on my CMP 40X converted repeaters set up as PRS rifles, and have been very pleased with them out to 300yds. I put a Benchmark 3-groove bbl on the old 722-style 40X, and a Krieger on the newer 40XB; chambered both with a PTG EPS match reamer, and both shoot a particular lot of SK Rifle Match very well - essentially as well as the best lot of Lapua Center-X that I've been able to find. What's more, this same lot of SK also shoots very well out of my Anschutz 2011's OEM bbl that was basically new when I bought the rifle off Gun Broker last year. Never thought I'd be lucky enough to find a single lot of one of the less expensive grades of match ammo that'd shoot this well out of three different bbls, but once I realized what I had, I bought two cases of the stuff, and am very well set up for the foreseeable future. With these match grade bbls & chambers, I wipe the bores out with a couple of patches wet with Ed's Red every 200 or so rounds, and follow that with one dry patch so there's a bit of the Ed's Red left in the bore to protect it.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

4 inches at 200 yards might be a bit on the high side

Easy enough to verify for your locale with a ballistic calculator.
Time of flight and gravity give the drop for the distance being shot.

More my point was that I shoot better than that with a 40X and CX ammo. Our 22 match has a 200 yard target that I think is about 4 inches and as long as the wind isn't going crazy by the afternoon when we shoot that target, I can ring it like a metronome. I actually find that the biggest issue with long range like that is that the dope change from sighting shots at 8am are like a MIL of more off from 12 noon. That is going from 50F to 85F, but I've never seen a ballistic calculator give me that much of a delta as I change temp. I think it is more of the gun and ammo being at temp than the air temp changing the ballistics. One round where I left my gun in the sun and my ammo was in the sun too, my 200 yard dope was useless.

I have a gong with a 3.5 inch center that I need to take out there see how I do.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Hey everybody, i'm picking up a 22lr trainer rifle to supplement my PRS training. I'm going to pick up a CZ-455 PVT 24". From what i understand, they're are a lot of nuances to precision rimfire shooting. i.e. cleaning regiments, ammo, etc. i looking around for other fourms on the topic, but came up with no specific post on it. So my idea is to make a centralized point for everyone's general tips and tricks, something that would be worthy of being stickied in this section. so here's the topics

-Cleaning regimens, i.e. round counts/ clean between different brands of ammo? What's cleaning? In all seriousness I will only thoroughly clean a rimfire after shooting plated or jacketed ammo. It does wonky stuff with lead bullets after running any. Changing lead bullets I've noticed some inconsistencies for the first few rounds and I supposed you could clean but it's still going to take a few rounds to foul the barrel back up with the new ammo anyway so I don't see the point.
-Best brands/types of for precision? Ammo? RWS, Eley, Lapua, Wolf all seem to do well but it really just depends on what your rifle likes. I'd suggest placing an initial order for a 50ct box of several types and try them.
-Realistic Max range? 400yds? For the most part but it depends. After 300 it can get pretty tough. I find 300 to be very consistent.
-Rifle setup does/don't Don't skimp on glass "because it's just a 22"
-Best bang for buck, gun mods Buying what you want on the first go around.
-Recommend scope base angle, manufactures? DIP is all around good to go. 20-40MOA, anything in there will most likely fine unless your optic choice has limited travel.
-Anything you guys thing a new rimfire shooter should know? Yes, buy an Anschutz. I wish I had just done that from the start instead of farting around.

Thanks guys!!

In addition to that, the only thing I'd add is that my results as far as needing to clean and achievable accuracy has been very different from some of the other replies here. I had a CZ PVT that I had inconsistencies with so I'll leave that out completely but my factory Anschutz (Manners T6 stocked model) has not been cleaned since after I put 500 rounds of cheap plated ammo through it to try to smooth out any burrs before testing match ammo. Mine ended up liking Wolf the most and I'm into my third case now (I believe the second brick in that case so over 10.5K rounds of this ammo fired) and when I shoot it for groups at 100 yards it still prints itty bitty groups, consistently.