Night Vision IR Laser/Illuminator advice

[Jlknights61]

I just pulled the trigger with TNVC on a set of DTNVG and I’m looking to set up two AR pistols for night vision use. This is my first NV purchase/setup so I’m a little lost/info saturated as I’m reading through NV info.

Ive read as many of the threads regarding the topic as I could find that seemed applicable. I’m not trying to spend $6k on two mawls, and while gov FP units would be nice it seems like a crap shoot to find legally available units. So with that this is my idea for set up.

gun #1 - DD MK18

- Steiner OTAL or CQBL for designator, Luna Elir-3 as Illuminator, and a Surefire scout for white light. Would run OTAL and Luna on taps.

Or

- Perst 3 and Surefire.

Gun #2 - 6.5” 300BLK PDW

- TNVC TOR-Mini for designator and Surefire white/IR for Illuminator.

I like the idea of running US market gear and not gambling with warranty, customs etc. with the perst unit, but if it is a significantly better solution/product.

Please let me know what you think and any suggestions , modifications or alternate strategies.

 

[TheHorta]

If you’re a buff young buck, feel free to ignore this.

For me, it’s all about weight. I don’t operate. I don’t clear structures or repel invasions.

To have good White Light and IR Illumination along with an IR laser, my new default is the TOR/SF Vampire combo. It weighs practically nothing while giving me everything. Fancy IR laser/illuminators are great, but they’re generally bulky, heavy amd expensive — for a good one — and aside from a PEQ-16 or a Perst2, you still need a while light. The TOR/Vamp accomplishes all of that at minimal cost, weight and bulk.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Jlknights61]

@TheHorta

I totally get where you are coming from, and while limiting weight is not the primary concern, it’s always a concern.

That’s part of my problem with scenario #1 for the mk18, it seems the front of my gun would be getting pretty crowded.

Gun #2, you’re dead on, I want the least amount of stuff and weight to get the job done.

Thanks for your input

 

[WillHugh]

The TOR/SF combo is a great place to start. As this is your entrance to nv I wouldn't rush to set two guns up at the same time. For a relatively small amount of money you can grab that combo and try it out to see how it works for you. Might do everything you want, or might not, but it will at least give you an idea of what's important to you.

For what it's worth I have a full power peq, but it pretty much only ends up getting used with a clipon. The illuminator is kind of overkill inside of 100 yards, and it's a pretty tight beam. A helmet mounted x300v is an awesom addition too for navigating, driving, looking at things you don't want to shoot, and extra ir for shooting.

 

[Ironman8]

@TheHorta what kind of usable range do you get out of the SF Vampire?

 

[jeffl838]

I feel the same way about FP gov/LE units. Also, the most commonly available one is the peq15, which has a plastic and non user serviceable housing, so if it breaks you're fucked

The luna is super bad ass. I want to get a better mount made for it, and something to stiffen up the head so it holds its zero better. Mounting a luna, a surefire, and a laser on your gun gets kinda nuts, so I usually hand carry the luna because I use it to hunt with and it's something that aids me in detection. Hand carrying it lets me use it as I'm holding it above my head, so I can get over tall grass and other stuff in the way.

That being said, I kinda want to get a second luna for my rifle on a TAPS as well because it is something that could help me shoot. The surefire on my rifle, for hunting, does nothing a helmet light can't do. For a fighting rifle, I'd keep the surefire on there. I don't need a white light on my rifle for hunting but want a white light for a fighting rifle.

If you're setting up a fighting rifle and are okay without a white light (lots of people are), the Luna still is a little janky... if I had more confidence in it's reliability, the capability is definitely there for it to function as a laser illuminator for fighting - even for cqb. It'd be super neat if someone could make a diffuser cap for it.

 

[Jgunner]

The shitty chicom ir flashlight evolva, like $40 on amazon with a pressure switch(no battery though)puts light out to 200 yards pretty well. They will take a 1” ring if you want it mounted. Cheap enough to buy a few in case of failure, not operator grade shit, but i have 2 and never had a failure. I use streamlight 18650 rechargeable. They have a focusable beam.

 

[wigwamitus]

Here are my mk18-ishes ... both using ELIR-3 and OTAL ...

I didn't pick these because they were the lowest cost solutions ... I picked them because they were the closest match to my needs (that didn't cross the line into the gray units).

The elir-3 I usually run on pretty low power to minimize bounce back ... but it has more power if needed ... I also usually run it on a pretty small circle so I can look thru gaps in the vegetation ...

The OTAL is small and light and can take an NDF which knocks out the bloom and gives me a tiny dot for shot placement, which I like.

So, even though these were not selected based on cost, I think these are about the lowest cost combos that will give you these capabilities.

I'm still waiting for the dual lead unity hot buttons to get more rapid, simultaneous instant on.

 

[aslrookie]

Tagged. Will post my setup later.

 

[Ironman8]

I feel the same way about FP gov/LE units. Also, the most commonly available one is the peq15, which has a plastic and non user serviceable housing, so if it breaks you're fucked

The luna is super bad ass. I want to get a better mount made for it, and something to stiffen up the head so it holds its zero better. Mounting a luna, a surefire, and a laser on your gun gets kinda nuts, so I usually hand carry the luna because I use it to hunt with and it's something that aids me in detection. Hand carrying it lets me use it as I'm holding it above my head, so I can get over tall grass and other stuff in the way.

That being said, I kinda want to get a second luna for my rifle on a TAPS as well because it is something that could help me shoot. The surefire on my rifle, for hunting, does nothing a helmet light can't do. For a fighting rifle, I'd keep the surefire on there. I don't need a white light on my rifle for hunting but want a white light for a fighting rifle.

If you're setting up a fighting rifle and are okay without a white light (lots of people are), the Luna still is a little janky... if I had more confidence in it's reliability, the capability is definitely there for it to function as a laser illuminator for fighting - even for cqb. It'd be super neat if someone could make a diffuser cap for it.

Thanks, good post. I was planning to pair a CQBL with either a SF Vamp or Modlite IR on a TAPS switch or dual lead hot button once they come out.

Agreed on a separate white light being needed on a fighting rifle and for me, that’s a Modlite with clicky cap.

 

[Lowdown3]

On the Luna mount- Loc tite the screws before mounting on your rifle. Mine was working loose after 5-6K rounds. Tightened the screws, loc tighted the crap out of everything and it's held pretty solid the last 2K rounds.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I feel the same way about FP gov/LE units. Also, the most commonly available one is the peq15, which has a plastic and non user serviceable housing, so if it breaks you're fucked

The luna is super bad ass. I want to get a better mount made for it, and something to stiffen up the head so it holds its zero better. Mounting a luna, a surefire, and a laser on your gun gets kinda nuts, so I usually hand carry the luna because I use it to hunt with and it's something that aids me in detection. Hand carrying it lets me use it as I'm holding it above my head, so I can get over tall grass and other stuff in the way.

That being said, I kinda want to get a second luna for my rifle on a TAPS as well because it is something that could help me shoot. The surefire on my rifle, for hunting, does nothing a helmet light can't do. For a fighting rifle, I'd keep the surefire on there. I don't need a white light on my rifle for hunting but want a white light for a fighting rifle.

If you're setting up a fighting rifle and are okay without a white light (lots of people are), the Luna still is a little janky... if I had more confidence in it's reliability, the capability is definitely there for it to function as a laser illuminator for fighting - even for cqb. It'd be super neat if someone could make a diffuser cap for it.

I run the Luna as a hand held just like you describe and use a 5x Magnifier slipped on a PVS 14 for positive ID at longer ranges.

You are spot on about your analysis. I also run Luna's married to Civi Dbal A3's that are simultaneously both activated via Taps Pro or Taps Sync switch's. This replicates and in most cases exceeds even the normal full power units capability out there.

I have found the Luna's to be very reliable and have not had one crap out yet. But I don't throw my rifles off rooftops to perform durability tests either. Cough Cough Aaron Cowan at SageDynamics. Man it really hurts watching him do his durability tests. All that being said, yes I do wish the Luna's were made out of a Aluminum Body.

For a "fighting rifle" the nice thing about marrying the Luna's with the Civi Dbal A3 is that if the Luna ever did sh^t the bed, you still have the denutted A3 onboard Illuminator to fall back on. Another thing I really like about the Luna's is they work great with rechargeable RCR123 batteries. As the Illuminator is the portion of any system that eats up the power, having the Luna running on its own separate rechargeable battery extends the crap out of my runtime on the Civi Dbal A3's.

And like Lowdown3 stated, make sure to Locktight the 2 screws that hold the mount onto the Luna body. You can also reverse that mount around so that the Luna will position itself ergonomically for easy access to the Rheostat nob for either a right or left hand shooter.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Here are my mk18-ishes ... both using ELIR-3 and OTAL ...

The OTAL is small and light and can take an NDF which knocks out the bloom and gives me a tiny dot for shot placement, which I like.

So, even though these were not selected based on cost, I think these are about the lowest cost combos that will give you these capabilities.

Yeap, the OTAL-Luna ELIR-3 marriage is a very good solution to get full power capability at a fraction of the cost of grey market FP units.

I sure wish Unity would go on and get the Hot Button Dual Lead versions on out. It will provide a great option for slaving these 2 devices together in a small footprint.

 

[wigwamitus]

Went back and looked at my pic inventory. Earliest pics of those two mk18-ishes with the luna/OTAL combo in 5 March 2020 ... so been running them since then ... now counting zeroing and testing ... as well as actual critter control shots ... I'm around 300rds total for both ... way short of another guy's 5k+ ... but then I'm not shooting on auto
And yes the Luna attachment screw has gotten a little loose but I check it and tighten it every time I go out ... I guess its become muscle memory ... so after 4 months of nightly use ... I still have not had to rezero either Luna. The OTAL dots are still dead center at 50yds ... which is what I'm zeroed to with the EOTECH ... the OTAL and Luna are infinity zeroed to the EOTECH reticle.

 

[aslrookie]

My setup is less popular. I understand lasers are easier to use especially in funky positions. However, my thoughts are we don’t use lasers during the day, so why rely on them so heavily at night?

Example: a buddy and I went out coyote hunting one night. He has an ATPIAL C and I was just using my red dot on a Unity Tactical aimpoint mount. A coyote popped up out of the tree line about 60 meters away from us with perfect alignment for a shot. The yote was at a dead stop. I raised my rifle thinking we were going to do a countdown and both of us shoot. Nope, he activated his laser and shot. He shot 8 rounds and missed every shot. The yote booked it after his initial miss.

He claimed that passive aiming through an optic was not nearly as good as a laser. I said “how can you say that when you missed a still dog at 60 meters?”.

My setup is a Modlite IR 850 illuminator on the left side at 11 o’clock with a Streamlight HLX on the 1 o’clock both with clicky tailcaps. I can reach both lights easily shooting strong or support side.

My problem with current products for IR laser/illum boxes are price and performance. The MAWL is crazy expensive if you’re outfitting more than 1 gun. I could justify 1 MAWL, but not two or three. The ATPIAL C illuminator is terrible and still costs over $1200. The DBAL D2 is a monster sized unit. The lower priced lasers are just a laser. The Russian units don’t have any support and I have heard from reputable sources that they are dirty lasers which could damage your eyes if not used properly.

So for $325 I have a lightweight modlite IR illuminator that works awesomely. For $150 I have a good performing 1,000 lumen white light. For $165 I have a Unity Tactical mount for passive aiming, so my head position and aiming is the same day or night. Much cheaper overall with still quality components.

Disclaimer: I’m not some SF dude with years of NV combat experience. I just practice with what I have and if it’s a two-way range, your laser is just a tracer back to your position anyway.

 

[WhereNow&How]

My setup is less popular. I understand lasers are easier to use especially in funky positions. However, my thoughts are we don’t use lasers during the day, so why rely on them so heavily at night?

Cause the IR light show is cool.

 

[Ironman8]

@aslrookie I would say your buddies problem is more training than hardware.

Are you running a 14 or dual tube system?

Also what is your impression of the Modlite 850? Usable range? Do they autogate your tube(s)?

 

[aslrookie]

@aslrookie I would say your buddies problem is more training than hardware.

Are you running a 14 or dual tube system?

Also what is your impression of the Modlite 850? Usable range? Do they autogate your tube(s)?

I am using dual tubes. I haven't been able to push it past 250 but 250 is solid for useable range. Too many tree lines and farm land around here to push the illuminator for max distance. It does autogate my tubes. I have L3 thin-filmed WP tubes. So the area outside of the illuminator is dark but everything else is super clean. The beam pattern is unique that it will light a up field of deer at 150 yards, but still have enough throw to see a specific area past that. There's a good youtube video showcasing the illuminator performance in comparison to other popular illuminators.

I want to put a IR 940 on my 300blk since I won't need as much throw. The IR 850 head does a have a strong red glow whereas the 940 does not (supposedly). The IR 850 is on my 11.5 5.56 SBR.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Also what is your impression of the Modlite 850? Usable range? Do they autogate your tube(s)?

I have a Modlite 850. That thing is a beast. It will light up half of Chicago.

In all seriousness it is a very good Illuminator for lighting up a big area. It will easily get you out to 400 yards.

I do not use it much but it makes an excellent spare head to carry in the field. It does throw off a pretty substantial red glow that can be fairly easily seen by a

If for some reason all my other IR Illuminator options where to sh^t the bed, I can unscrew my Modlight OKW (beast of a white light head, 69,000 Candela) off my Surefire DF Scout and screw the Modlite IR 850 on and I got a beast illuminator to go with IR Point that is also slaved so one push of a button activates the Modlite IR 850 and a Dbal IR Pointer. So I am back in business.

I believe in redundancy in systems.

 

[Ironman8]

I am using dual tubes. I haven't been able to push it past 250 but 250 is solid for useable range. Too many tree lines and farm land around here to push the illuminator for max distance. It does autogate my tubes. I have L3 thin-filmed WP tubes. So the area outside of the illuminator is dark but everything else is super clean. The beam pattern is unique that it will light a up field of deer at 150 yards, but still have enough throw to see a specific area past that. There's a good youtube video showcasing the illuminator performance in comparison to other popular illuminators.

I want to put a IR 940 on my 300blk since I won't need as much throw. The IR 850 head does a have a strong red glow whereas the 940 does not (supposedly). The IR 850 is on my 11.5 5.56 SBR.

I think you’re talking about the JWRamp vid. Yeah that was a good vid and it looks plenty powerful. Have you played with the 940 head? Wondering if it cuts out the red glow and can illuminate out to 150+?

 

[Ironman8]

I have a Modlite 850. That thing is a beast. It will light up half of Chicago.

In all seriousness it is a very good Illuminator for lighting up a big area. It will easily get you out to 400 yards.

I do not use it much but it makes an excellent spare head to carry in the field. It does throw off a pretty substantial red glow that can be fairly easily seen by a

If for some reason all my other IR Illuminator options where to sh^t the bed, I can unscrew my Modlight OKW (beast of a white light head, 69,000 Candela) off my Surefire DF Scout and screw the Modlite IR 850 on and I got a beast illuminator to go with IR Point that is also slaved so one push of a button activates the Modlite IR 850 and a Dbal IR Pointer. So I am back in business.

I believe in redundancy in systems.

Yeah the vid I’ve seen is pretty impressive. It really is a beast. Any chance you’ve played with your pass filter on it to reduce the red signature? Or have you played with the Modlite 940 head?

 

[WhereNow&How]

Pretty much all LED IR lights no matter whether 850 nm or 950nm all throw out a pretty noticeable glow. It is because of the bleed over of light that is not in the 950 nm spectrum band. In other words LED IR lights are kinda like a shotgun. Stuff be all over the place. LOL

Now here is the secret sauce and recipe. Get any very powerful LED IR light (say 1.4 watts and above) and stick a 950 pass filter in front of it and you pretty much illuminate all the red glow that is visible to the human eye.

Take this puppy here with a Zomie 950 Pass filter installed in the front end, and you got something that is excellent for stealth. No red glow to be seen.

https://www.amazon.com/UniqueFire-V...s=evolva+ir+illuminator&qid=1595355599&sr=8-3

 

[Ironman8]

Ah true I didn’t think about the fact that it won’t JUST be 850 or 940nm. So would you think the Modlite 850 has enough juice to work with your pass filter? I’d be curious on the results if you try it.

I’m looking for something weapon mounted so the amazon special probably won’t work

 

[WhereNow&How]

Yeah the vid I’ve seen is pretty impressive. It really is a beast. Any chance you’ve played with your pass filter on it to reduce the red signature? Or have you played with the Modlite 940 head?

Yes, I have hand held up a 950 Pass Filter in front of it. It does kill the glow, but the Modlite head is not a focusable beam, so it really duds out to a too weak of a sauce dish.

When you put a 950 Pass Filter in front of an LED IR light you need a focusable front bezel so you can tighten down on it and get some good throw distance back. Or if you in tight quarters widen it out so the IR energy is spread out and low for some close up stealth work. I run them on my helmets. Those same lights I linked above are also branded Evolva as well. Depends which "chink" distributor is shipping them I think.

You can use the Helmet mounted LED IR Illuminator with Pass Filter and just your 0.7 mW IR point and you completely invisible to any critter than aint wearing NV. It also tames down the 0.7 mW bloom to where it is a nice fine point for precision work or turn you IR Point down to a lower setting. The Helmet Mounted IR Illuminator is also great for walking around in thick cover looking for wounded game or blood as well.

The ability to vary the intensity of both IR Illumination and IR Point is important for getting the perfect contrasted IR Point dot vs your IR Illuminators intensity and what your NV tubes are seeing via all the Photonics that are intermingling to produce an image for your eyes and brain to use.

You can do that via Rheostat and bezel on Luna, or variable power settings, or adjusting bezels on cheap Chinese Illuminators.

 

[aslrookie]

I think you’re talking about the JWRamp vid. Yeah that was a good vid and it looks plenty powerful. Have you played with the 940 head? Wondering if it cuts out the red glow and can illuminate out to 150+?

I have not used the 940 yet. I’m debating on whether I want to put a surefire km1 IR/whi light on the 300blk or copy my other SBR and go with the 940 and HLX. I only shoot the 300blk with subsonic suppressed with an 8.5” barrel. So according to Modlite, the 940 has been perfect for 300blk.

 

[Rerun7]

Depending on the distance you need to illuminate, another cheap option to get started is the stream light TLR2 IR.

the Illuminator isn’t going to get you out there 200 yards but for closer in it works great and is pretty cheap. I snagged a like new one for $180.

 

[Jlknights61]

Thanks for all the help so far y’all.

So for the 300blk I went with the tor mini and an inforce WLM white/Ir. I like the setup of the inforce so I figure for $120 I’ll try the it and see how it goes. If I don’t like it on the gun I’ll move it to my helmet and buy a Surefire or mod light.

For the mk18 I’m leaning towards the Luna and a an Ir laser.

Do y’all think the Steiner otal is worth double the holosun 117 and is it worth stepping up in price to a cqbl or holosun 221 for the slaved vis laser?

As I understand it I can just zero the Ir laser under nods to my red dot and that doesn’t sound to complicated so my thought was I wouldn’t need the vis laser.

 

[wigwamitus]

The OTAL can take an NDF filter which dramatically tightens up the beam ... I really like that.

The viz laser is useful if you don't have your 14 working for some reason, you can still aim at night ... but if there is enuff light ... you can use the eotech rds itself ... I have CQBL on some carbines and OTAL on others ... but the pro and con for me, are as stated !

 

[aslrookie]

Here’s a picture of my setup. The left is Modlite IR 850 and right is Streamlight HLX. I thought about going with the inforce white/IR light for my 300blk but decided against it due to mixed feedback on reliability even with the Gen 2 design. I’d be ok with it being helmet mounted, but I try to keep excess weight off my noggin as much as possible. So I’d rather have it as a handheld with some velcro to just stick it on the helmet for quick hands free if needed.

I want to keep my 300blk as low profile as possible, so I may opt for the 600 series sized vampire light. Just sucks that you have to rotate bezel between modes. That’s one thing the inforce did right was just a lever you flip to switch modes.

 

[Jlknights61]

@wigwamitus I didn’t realize you couldn’t run an NdF on the holosun that’s good to know and definitely a nod towards the Steiner.

@aslrookie. I hadn’t heard poor reports for the gen 2 model, what have you heard? Are they still having cracked polymer issues? The controls are what pushed me toward the inforce especially with running it with the tor-mini and not be able to run lum and laser on one switch. The more ergonomic the controls I figure the more quickly I can manipulate them.

WML is only 3oz, will that be that noticeable on the helmet?

 

[jeffl838]

The OTAL can take an NDF filter which dramatically tightens up the beam ... I really like that.

The viz laser is useful if you don't have your 14 working for some reason, you can still aim at night ... but if there is enuff light ... you can use the eotech rds itself ... I have CQBL on some carbines and OTAL on others ... but the pro and con for me, are as stated !

Holosun LE221 has a low setting that gives you a very small and tight beam as well. I don't know about the 117.

 

[WhereNow&How]

As I understand it I can just zero the Ir laser under nods to my red dot and that doesn’t sound to complicated so my thought was I wouldn’t need the vis laser.

Yeah, that method works pretty well. The big thing is to try to pick out a good distance of say 150 yard then use a target such as the side of a barn, house, sheet of plywood and overlap the IR Point to it at a known range. Point being from time to time if you want to check that your LAM is still on without shooting just pick out a target that is again at a known distance of say 150 yards and confirm that the IR point is still overlapped on your red dot at that exact range.

Later on if you try to check it at closer distance or longer distances it will be a tad off of your red dot and you may think it has shifted when it hasn't.

 

[aslrookie]

@wigwamitus I didn’t realize you couldn’t run an NdF on the holosun that’s good to know and definitely a nod towards the Steiner.

@aslrookie. I hadn’t heard poor reports for the gen 2 model, what have you heard? Are they still having cracked polymer issues? The controls are what pushed me toward the inforce especially with running it with the tor-mini and not be able to run lum and laser on one switch. The more ergonomic the controls I figure the more quickly I can manipulate them.

WML is only 3oz, will that be that noticeable on the helmet?

It was reviews I read on their website. Some said they just stopped working before it was even used on a gun. I don’t believe every review I see, but there were enough mixed reviews that lead me to believe at least some must be true.

 

[Jlknights61]

update:

So, I have rethought this a bit, and am now thinking I may not want to run multiple devices and would be better served by a D2 or MAWL. Which brings me to a few questions.

1. Excluding the down range signature, is the mawl Illuminator better than the D2?

2. For those who own or have owned a D2 did you find this size cumbersome or anyway to be a major disadvantage?

3. The biggest question I have is what do you all believe is the feasibility to run one unit on multiple rifles?

My thought process here would be, I could very easily swap the mawl or D2 from top rail to top rail on multiple rifles adjust zero with slaved vis laser for a distant converging zero and run. It would take less than 15 min of set up and I could run it on whatever rifle I was using that night. At least in my head this makes sense... what does everyone else think?

 

[TheHorta]

Basically, unless you’re planning to hunt 2-legged critters that shoot back, the dreaded “downrange signature” is utterly irrelevant to all practical extent.

Check out JW’s report on this. It is basically all we civilian peasants have to go on for a comprehensive comparison report and is the definitive work on the subject extant.

 

[Bevo]

Basically, unless you’re planning to hunt 2-legged critters that shoot back, the dreaded “downrange signature” is utterly irrelevant to all practical extent.

Check out JW’s report on this. It is basically all we civilian peasants have to go on for a comprehensive comparison report and is the definitive work on the subject extant.

The JW Thread

 

[aslrookie]

Even with the signature, if they can see it then it’s already too late for them. I personally don’t like to swap stuff that needs to be zeroed between rifles. Once a rifle is setup the way I like it, it stays that way unless something needs to be re-evaluated or troubleshooting needs to happen.

You could buy 2 D2’s for the price of 1 MAWL. Then you’re not constantly swapping. You could keep a D2 on your primary and your other D2 could bounce around to other rifles. Then you always have a D2 on your primary ready to go.

 

[TheHorta]

IR laser for your bunghole.

 

[theLBC]

Cause the IR light show is cool.

and hogs. lots of hogs.

 

[WhereNow&How]

IR laser for your bunghole.

No, No, No. TP, TP, TP.

 

[Jlknights61]

@TheHorta @Bevo This is the conclusion I had come to as well and I have read the JW thread And it was very helpful. This is why, for now, I have excluded down range signature as a factor in the decision.

@aslrookie I definitely understand this and in a perfect world I would absolutely prefer dedicated units. I definitely don’t want to spend the money on 2 mawls.. that would almost as much as I spent on the dtnvgs and if I’m dropping that coin Im buying thermal. I could do as you said and buy 2 d2s (and still spend less than 1 mawl), but will I regret this? For most people is the mawl that much better.

As far as moving it around goes, I really just wanted to assess the feasibility/practicality. It would spend the majority of its time on my DD mk18, but I would like to be able to use it on a 6.5 grendel every now and then. If this is totally impractical whatever I buy will be dedicated to the mk18 and I’ll add capability to the 6.5 down the road.

It just seemed many people were running converging zeros, and that it would be reasonably easy to just swap from rail to rail zero the vis laser to the optic and run. I understand parallel zero is probably better but for most people converging works fine at least that is what it’s seemed from what I’ve read.

The real reason I think I am trying to make the swapping from rifle to rifle work is because if it’s as easy as I’d like to believe it is I can justify the mawl no problem, I mean I can use it on all of my rifles it makes perfect sense lol.

 

[jeffl838]

I would argue that a parallel zero isn't better because it's nearly (or arguably) impossible. If you have half minute adjustments on your laser, and your line of sight falls in between two clicks, you would go with the click that turns your laser into a converging zero - it just converges at an unknown point. Knowing what point your laser converges is nice for no reason other than knowledge is power.

 

[Jlknights61]

I would argue that a parallel zero isn't better because it's nearly (or arguably) impossible. If you have half minute adjustments on your laser, and your line of sight falls in between two clicks, you would go with the click that turns your laser into a converging zero - it just converges at an unknown point. Knowing what point your laser converges is nice for no reason other than knowledge is power.

This makes sense, as I said theoretically I can see where a parallel zero would be better assuming it’s perfectly parallel. However, it seems so much easier to me to aim at a distant object 200-300 yards and zero to my optic. Can be done night or day (assuming you have vis laser) and without firing a shot. This is what lead me to the idea that it would seemingly be simple to just swap my Ir unit from one gun to another as needed.

 

[jeffl838]

We're totally on the same page with converging, but i just want to put this out there for discussion and others to read:

I think parallel zero is plain silly. Let's say I want to shoo 0m-500m with my laser (lofty goal, but the extreme strengthens the example). If I converge at 250m, asssuming my laser is offset 1" to the right, at 500m my laser will be 1" to the left of my line of sight. At 125m, my laser will be .5" to the right of my line of sight. What's better, being .5" to the right because of my convergence, or being 1" to the right because of a parallel zero? I would say .5".

Some are vehement parallel zero'ers. I think it only makes sense if you have a star wars blaster.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Also, with a converging zero at a known distance of say 150 yards, it is really easy to check that your day optic/laser are still both on (especially if you have Vis Point) anywhere anytime without firing a shot as long as you know the object you are sighting on for checking purposes is the same 150 yard distance that you originally co witnessed your day optic and laser.

If they are not still cowhitnessed at this distance, Some Ting Wong. Either day optic or laser has changed.

Converging is really the best IMHO for a lot of reasons.

 

[Jlknights61]

So then does my plan of swapping an Ir unit between multiple rifles make sense or.. still no?

I just have in my mind with a mawl I don’t need a tape switch or anything else, so I would literally just losen the clamp move to the new rifle set converging zero with vis laser and run.

ObvIously this works with the D2 as well though I’m not sure how the ergos are on that unit and whether I would really want a tape switch which complicates the swapping somewhat.

 

[WhereNow&How]

So then does my plan of swapping an Ir unit between multiple rifles make sense or.. still no?

I just have in my mind with a mawl I don’t need a tape switch or anything else, so I would literally just losen the clamp move to the new rifle set converging zero with vis laser and run.

ObvIously this works with the D2 as well though I’m not sure how the ergos are on that unit and whether I would really want a tape switch which complicates the swapping somewhat.

Yeah its doable but here are some things to consider.

1. You would need to do the converging zero (overlap your day optic) for a lot of reasons, mainly for you, the ease of doing it quickly while rifle jumping.

2. So you would likely have to adjust your laser pointer tensioners (X & Y) to do the overlap every time you swap from rifle to rifle. That is a somewhat intricate mechanism that isn't the most rugged game in town. So point being, constantly mechanically moving it and adjusting it will put more "wear and tear" on it than one that stays of 1 rifle zeroed all the time and only needing minor adjustment once in a blue moon. So theoretically you would be wearing out your laser pointers adjustment system to remain properly aligned due to excessive adjustment from constantly jumping rifles.

I have never owned a MAWL but the reports are that the adjusters were not a positive click setup like the Steiner Dbals. In fact the sighting in instructions I think recommended that there was a "seating in period" where you were to expect some shifting of the adjusters and resulting zero.

I think this new revised Version 2 MAWL that corrects up some of the Version 1 design defects may have improved the Pointer adjustments. However, the same goes for the MAWL. I think it was considered a somewhat weaker system from the get go.

So constantly rifle jumping with any MFAL/LAM and the resulting "excessive" re-zeroing should increase internal wear on that system and could result in early sloppiness and inability to hold a long tight zero.

 

[Jlknights61]

@WhereNow&How Thanks for that it’s good to know as I had no idea that was a concern. Definitely don’t want to potentially ruin an expensive piece of gear or render it unreliable. I’ll look into that more.

 

[jeffl838]

Jesus I almost cannot believe that they released a product that lame. At that price and that degree of durability, I will gladly stick with holosuns. Not having positive clicks is just retarded.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Jesus I almost cannot believe that they released a product that lame. At that price and that degree of durability, I will gladly stick with holosuns. Not having positive clicks is just retarded.

Hecque, it gets worse. Horta's words below not mine.

$2,500. — BE Meyers FDE MAWL C1+. USED. In original box with all original paperwork. Works great, but should have propeller cap replaced because lenses are a little dirty. BEM will do it, no problem. I think they charge $200-300 to make it new again.