Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

[cal50]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

The 30-30 is outdated on paper. Flat nose, slow and the ballistics of a Winnebago in a head wind yet it still kills deer.

I guess its all relative and depends on purpose and distance. If your purpose is to kill targets at reasonable ranges most calibers work well. If your stretching that distance and need more power or accuracy that dictates a caliber choice.

The .308 works well but other calibers work "better" at distance.
If you are firing for points then the faster and flatter rounds give you and advantage.

Killing targets I doubt it would know what hit them.
Hathcock with a .30 did pretty well.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Razr286</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the 308 round is still a great round... <span style="font-weight: bold"> The round only moves 7.5 mils from 0 to 1000.</span>
</div></div>

What?

Do you mean windage?

Are you sure about that? </div></div>


If he's pushing a 155 Scenar at 2950 fps, with a 200yd zero, that would be pretty close at 4500' el.

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Unless you're in SE KY on the Virginia border, about 2000' ASL is the highest elevation you'll find in the state (and typically its 1000' or lower).

 

[Tactical]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone asked why the 308. Well for me I switched to F TR Class so I would only be shooting against the guys not have an equipment race. Well guess what F TR is now an equipment race just like lal the other classes. Guys are loading way long and using 200-230 grain bullets at velocities no 308 should have. I think eventually we will get a handle on F TR Class and bring it back down to shooter versus shooter thing again like International Palma is.

The only answer to make thing 100% fair would be to issue everyone the same ammo and weapons and make them all shoot the same. The problem with this is no one will do it and the sport would die. That class is to be left to Military and police where they all use issue weapons/ammo. For the GP it should be what ever the rules allow.

Teh differences between the two are good in that the equipment races bread new and better equipment for the LE/Military guys. Look at Service Rifle Class, for years it was same old same old because of strict rules. It became far from any real type of shooting because thats how we did it for a hundred years.

Now we have Practical Precision or what ever you wnat to call it and we have some new blod and great ideas. Thats a plus in my book.

That wont take away the fact the 308 is here to stay and works well for LE and MIlitary Snipers. </div></div>

Agree with everything you've said here except for we can't predict where the .308 will go, but its here for now

Eventually, progress will kill it. Aren't the M24s being converted to .300 Win, leaving the 7.62x51 NATO to the semi-auto platform? </div></div>

yes because short action calibers at this point belong in a gas gun. there is not benifit in just about any of the 6cm, 6.5, 308, 7-08, etc if you can fit it in a gas gun might as well. they are becoming so accurate now with modern technology and reliable enough that they should be gas guns. so if your carrying a bolt you might as well make it a caliber like 300wm or 338lm and really get some more distance and kinetic energy to use. </div></div>

There my friends is a Professional Answer that makes sense in most situations. The only cavet I have to that is LE/Hostage Rescue where you need needle like accuracy. There a 308 boltgun is truly unmatched.

I have only been doing this since early 1980s and learn something new everyday. I find it funny how often someone, who only competes on paper/steel tells the world who uses sniper equipment for a living how they dont know what to use. Real world will dictate real response

308s killing folks since 1950s and doing it well

 

[25MAN]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone asked why the 308. Well for me I switched to F TR Class so I would only be shooting against the guys not have an equipment race. Well guess what F TR is now an equipment race just like lal the other classes. Guys are loading way long and using 200-230 grain bullets at velocities no 308 should have. I think eventually we will get a handle on F TR Class and bring it back down to shooter versus shooter thing again like International Palma is.

The only answer to make thing 100% fair would be to issue everyone the same ammo and weapons and make them all shoot the same. The problem with this is no one will do it and the sport would die. That class is to be left to Military and police where they all use issue weapons/ammo. For the GP it should be what ever the rules allow.

Teh differences between the two are good in that the equipment races bread new and better equipment for the LE/Military guys. Look at Service Rifle Class, for years it was same old same old because of strict rules. It became far from any real type of shooting because thats how we did it for a hundred years.

Now we have Practical Precision or what ever you wnat to call it and we have some new blod and great ideas. Thats a plus in my book.

That wont take away the fact the 308 is here to stay and works well for LE and MIlitary Snipers. </div></div>

Agree with everything you've said here except for we can't predict where the .308 will go, but its here for now

Eventually, progress will kill it. Aren't the M24s being converted to .300 Win, leaving the 7.62x51 NATO to the semi-auto platform? </div></div>

yes because short action calibers at this point belong in a gas gun. there is not benifit in just about any of the 6cm, 6.5, 308, 7-08, etc if you can fit it in a gas gun might as well. they are becoming so accurate now with modern technology and reliable enough that they should be gas guns. so if your carrying a bolt you might as well make it a caliber like 300wm or 338lm and really get some more distance and kinetic energy to use. </div></div>

There my friends is a Professional Answer that makes sense in most situations. The only cavet I have to that is LE/Hostage Rescue where you need needle like accuracy. There a 308 boltgun is truly unmatched.

I have only been doing this since early 1980s and learn something new everyday. I find it funny how often someone, who only competes on paper/steel tells the world who uses sniper equipment for a living how they dont know what to use. Real world will dictate real response

308s killing folks since 1950s and doing it well </div></div>


The question was "Is the 308 outclassed as a tatical "Match" rifle...not if it was still a good fit for LE snipers or if the military snipers should still use them in situations...I don't think most would disagree (i certainly don't) that a .308 for LE snipers shooting with in 200yds in most cases is the perfect round...the aurgment is around extended ranges. Even our military has adopted 300win mag, 338LM, 408 cheytac and the 50 to overcome the short falls in the .308 out to extended ranges,. Your argument still doesn't make the .308 outdated for extended range matches...there are a LOT of better calibers for long range shooting plain and simple.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

I was responding to someone talking about why the military is going to all 300's it isn't cuz 308 isn't effective enough it's cuz the platform which to shoot it out of changed. The mk20 is online and gas Guns are accurate enough for sniper work with any short action caliber.

 

[sav338lapua]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

you know i have 6.5 creedmoor and a 6.5x55sm and i love them.
but i love my .308. as far as the .308 being a handicap dont think so. if the top shooters were to all of a sudden deside to start shooting the .308 again i would wager that it would all of a sudden start winning matches again. as far as accuracy goes the .308 or rather the ones i have fired were easily 1/2 moa shooters and often dipping down to 1/4 moa. i think we sometimes confuse gun accuracy and shooter accuracy. my load for 155 palma bullets out of my 10ba averages 2950fps and will do this at less than 1/2 moa. the 10ba weighs about 16 pounds without scope or bipod. savages recoil compensator takes out whats left of any recoil, so i quite often watch he bullet strike the target. so that takes care of that. so i say shoot a .308 and have lots of fun.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Well I kinda answered my own question today. I'm at the PMG match here in Cookville to RO it tommorow and shoot some of the stages today. I was scoring first round hits today that I couldn't have made with my 308.

Every miss I had from stable shooting positions was because I overestimated the wind. I really wasn't prepared for how well the 243 beats the wind.

I was so impressed I'm not sure my 308 barrel is gonna get used much.

 

[LRJammer]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

There are a lot of whitetails in western Oklahoma that have made their way into my freezer at ranges well over 500 yards. Guess they didnt get the memo that the lowly 308 cant kill them at range.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Title of thread <span style="font-weight: bold">"Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?</span>

Not can the .308 take game or work as a LE round. 25Man said it pretty good above. If the .308 was still that good then it would be being used and winning matches. It's not. That's not to say it can't be used in other ways. I use mine as a practice rifle as I only have 400 yards and the .308 has abetter barrel life. But when it comes to match time the .308 goes away and a 6.5 or 6mm comes out.

 

[LRJammer]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Title of thread <span style="font-weight: bold">"Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?</span>

Not can the .308 take game or work as a LE round. 25Man said it pretty good above. If the .308 was still that good then it would be being used and winning matches. It's not. That's not to say it can't be used in other ways. I use mine as a practice rifle as I only have 400 yards and the .308 has abetter barrel life. But when it comes to match time the .308 goes away and a 6.5 or 6mm comes out. </div></div>

I am well aware of the title and certainly not disputing the advantages of the 6 & 6.5 rounds at distance. I own shoot a 260 myself. I was merely responding to a previous post in the thread regarding using the 308 for hunting.

 

[s5traut]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The question was "Is the 308 outclassed as a tatical "Match" rifle...not if it was still a good fit for LE snipers or if the military snipers should still use them in situations...I don't think most would disagree (i certainly don't) that a .308 for LE snipers shooting with in 200yds in most cases is the perfect round...the aurgment is around extended ranges. Even our military has adopted 300win mag, 338LM, 408 cheytac and the 50 to overcome the short falls in the .308 out to extended ranges,. Your argument still doesn't make the .308 outdated for extended range matches...there are a LOT of better calibers for long range shooting plain and simple. </div></div>

Yeah because snipers have never been able to accurately or consistently hit anything beyond 200 yards with a .308...

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

obviously this thread has got out of control off topic. yes there are better short action calibers out there that fly better then 308 and are thus better for competition. I would still completely be in for a comp that was 1 caliber accross the board regardless of what caliber. the military did not rebarrel the m24's because of the invalidity of the 308 round but only that with the accuracy of modern gas guns there is no need of short action bolt guns. now i will say this "NO NEED" if you can fit a short action caliber in a gun like a larue OBR or a GAP10 they are getting 3/8 moa accuracy out of them. most bolt guns won't do better then that with the speed at which you can get a second shot off a bolt gun in general is outclassed in that aspect. where bolt guns come back into play is in Long actions where you can either load long or run magnum calibers. LEO snipers do not need a bolt gun because they need "pinpoint like accuracy" thats bullshit cuz i know plenty of departments that issue their "snipers" shit guns and won't let them run their own precision weapons. Not speaking accross the board as there is enough LEO's on here that have spoke otherwise.

anyways i'm ranting now. its not the arrow its the indian and i will never tell a newb to buy a 6br for a first gun even if they are goin to be shooting comps, no you might not be as ballisticly superior in the end but you have a lot more to worry about then the mil to 1000 or your wind holds. for all of you who are top of the heap more power to you, you have earned it and know what you are doing, for all you newbs who will place bottom 50 percent anyways regardless of caliber or if you had a fucking laser beam surgically implanted in your arm. YOU DO NOT NEED A FUCKING HOTROD round learn to shoot first and you'll impress more people then if you have a 6.5 winchester lapua short creedmore magnum.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

I couldn't read through all four pages- so if this has been asked/commented...sorry...

I didn't see where the OP specified range...

I've never thought of the .243 as a 1,000 yard caliber. Bullets too light, and don't carry the BC to buck the wind at long range.

Something I'm missing here?

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I couldn't read through all four pages- so if this has been asked/commented...sorry...

I didn't see where the OP specified range...

I've never thought of the .243 as a 1,000 yard caliber. Bullets too light, and don't carry the BC to buck the wind at long range.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Something I'm missing here? </span></div></div>

Yeah, you're missing a 243 pushing a 115gr DTAC (0.585 BC) @ 3000fps.

Compare that to a 308 pushing a 175gr SMK (0.505 BC) @ 2700fps, or even a 208 A-Max @ 2600fps, and you'll find the 243 does pretty darn well at 1000 yards.

Of course it lacks the energy of the 308 due to lighter bullets, but if you don't NEED downrange energy it doesn't matter.

 

[echo3]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Is the 308 OUTCLASSED as a tac comp round?
OP asked and even answered his own question.
Yes it is.

Just like a iron sighted single stack non comped 45 is if run against STI comp super 38 in open class USPSA.

Is it the wizard or the wand? The Indian or the arrow? BOTH. The indian who has reached that point of proficiency will go out of his way to make sure his arrows shoot as straight as possible. As consistently as possible.
That still wont help his friend who does not shoot or practice.
That arrow in the hands of the unskilled is a stick. Nothing more.

It reminds me of the scene in Quigly. The ranch hand kid, "oh sure, but you give me a rifle like that...." and the requisite laughter.

Joe is dead on balls too. Gas guns are replacing 308 bolts all over the world. IIRC the Brits, Aussie and NZ just dropped their AI in favor of the LMT.

Lets do get leveling of the field involved.
I am all for classes in comp.
Sandbaggers suck. Imagine if you were brand new and Terry Cross were sandbagging to be down there just for the trophy? It would suck in a big enough way to dissuade a lot of new shooters.

 

[RufDog]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Great read, this thread is an emotional roller coaster.

 

[dtibbals]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

WOW what a great thread! Lots of good opinions and ways to look at the issue. I am just about to order a new GAP rifle and dive into long range shooting and practical/tactical rifle matches. After reading this thread, many other threads and speaking to people in the industry I think it breaks down to this:

I have been told if you want to learn to be a "tight" shooter by learning the wind etc shoot a 308 first. Advantage is you have to learn to shoot this caliber as you can't be as sloppy and still have hits. You also have long barrel life and cheaper ammo/reloading supplies.


If you are simply into to competition shooting go with a 260 or other 6mm/6.5mm bullet and you will stay competitive. Still have the fundamentals to learn but the learning curve will be shorter.

If you want an all around hunting/competition round go 30 cal in either 308, 300mag, 300 shorts or 7mm variants. You will have increased recoil, shorter barrel life and increase ammo cost with the magnum calibers but have a better flying bullet than a 308 with an ability to be a solid hunting round (a do it all rifle but with less barrel life, increased ammo cost etc).

It is clear everything has it's tradeoffs. I have seen the same issue discussed about competitions such as clay target shooting (trap, skeet, sporting clays) all have an equipment race and the next new thing to give you an edge above the rest. Issue is it might give you an edge but if you don't have the fundamentals, mental fortitude to handle the increased stress under pressure and reliable equipment an experienced shooter with the experience and mental game can kick your ass with a $300 gun bought at walmart as compared to your $15k gun. They also get into shell choices and choke choices etc etc and everyone has what they think is best. Bottom line is if you know what you are doing you can and will kick peoples ass, the ammo and gun become a very small part of the equation. Sure it is a different sport but I have competed at a world championship trap shoots and if you can't shoot a perfect score over an entire week of events you won't even make the top 20 in most cases. I have seen guys shoot 200/200 and than have to shoot until 2am and run another 800 targets straight to take first place. Sure you need reliable equipment etc but you better have the mental game figured out, it is what truly separates the men from the boys.

The reason I bring this up is any sport is what you make of it. Sure there are guys shooting 308 for example that are better shooters than those using better calibers. The big issue for that good shooter shooting 308 is when he is shooting against an equal or better shooter who has an advantage in equipment, that shooter will most likely win unless he makes a major mistake.

I have come to the conclusion that I can either decide I want to join the equipment race and have the best caliber and learn to shoot it well or go with a traditional caliber like 308 which is historic but lacking when compared to some of the new calibers in which first hit probability is increased do to their natural ability to fly "straighter".

At the end of the day a miss is a miss, I would rather put a hit on target or a bad guy the first time vs have a "traditional" caliber that may have a higher probability of error on my part causing a miss. I had a handgun instructor say once "is it better to miss with your 45acp or hit the guy with a 9mm cause you can shoot it better?" I think we all know the answer to that one, I would rather hit a guy with a 22lr than miss him with a 50 cal. Now I am smart enough to know that first hit with a 308 is very possible but the odds do improve with better bullets. This is assuming the shooter has the proper fundamentals to take advantage of the improved equipment/bullets.

It seems that in the competition world guys are leaving the 308 to be more competitive. This is only logical since even the better 308 shooters have moved onto better calibers. This than means those who don't move forward to better calibers will continue to have a larger gap between them and those who are just as good but have gotten better by using better equipment. This seems to hold true in any sport and we have a large industry supporting the shooting sports that is always looking to provide people with the next best mouse trap, sometimes it works out to be the next best thing and sometimes it isn't.


Bottom line is the sport is about putting hits on target!

PS the theory that 308 should be separate etc is fine I guess, but in the real world do the bad guy get extra points or special treatment because they don't have as good of equipment, training or miss the first shot when we didn't? Seems to me all is fair in love and war.

DT

 

[25MAN]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dtibbals</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.
It seems that in the competition world guys are leaving the 308 to be more competitive. This is only logical since even the better 308 shooters have moved onto better calibers. This than means those who don't move forward to better calibers will continue to have a larger gap between them and those who are just as good but have gotten better by using better equipment. This seems to hold true in any sport and we have a large industry supporting the shooting sports that is always looking to provide people with the next best mouse trap, sometimes it works out to be the next best thing and sometimes it isn't.
DT </div></div>

Well said DT...by nature people are all different and some adjust and embrace change (usually the most successful in whatever it is they do in life) and others try like hell to hold onto the past and fight change ( they usually hit a ceiling and never get where they hope to) The people that don't except change in our sport say stuff like "you're not a shooter unless you can hit steel with a 308" haha and those same people say stuff like "magnums are harder to shoot becuase of recoil so a 308 is easier to manage and for a new shooter they can learn better fundamentals before they go to a magnums" until you challenge the 308 than those SAME people say "the magnums are cheaters and shouldn't be allowed in competitions" LOL you can even see that in this thread, but bottom line is in the match world the 308 is a dying caliber whether they want to except it or not, and for damn good reason and the reason is not becuase the shooters are not talented they just realize there are better tools for the job. What's funny is people keep mentioning we should have matches where they only allow NATO rounds but i think they forget the 300 win mag is a NATO round and still is winning some of the toughest competitions out there so the 308 is not the ONLY military round that gets fired. I would be more than glad to shoot a 300 winmag only match but they don't seem to exist...interesting right?

 

[Lofty]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I couldn't read through all four pages- so if this has been asked/commented...sorry...

I didn't see where the OP specified range...

I've never thought of the .243 as a 1,000 yard caliber. Bullets too light, and don't carry the BC to buck the wind at long range.

Something I'm missing here? </div></div>

This last Friday I shot my new 243 at 1100 yards. Factory Corbon ammo running 115 DTACS approximately 3030 FPS. I had a 5 MPH full value wind. My first round was just off the right side, I was holding 1.5 mils. Backed off to 1.2 and put the next 9 rounds into a an IPSC sized popper.....that was with 7.4 mils of elevation. It didn't knock the popper over but the splashes were visible with the naked eye.

I'd say it makes a heck of a 1000 yard round.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

I have my own opinion regarding calibers, and I think this thread has possibly become an overly 'interesting' place for me to offer it.

That said; I think it's about the Indian more than about the arrow, and this Indian will be picking out his arrows rather carefully. Some actually are better than others.

Greg

 

[Jedi]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Work smarter not harder equates to shooting a 6/6.5 vs 308

Does the 308 work sure
but in the wind @ unknown distance, i will take a 6/6.5 every day of the week.

Look @ the winners circle how many 308 ya see?

enuff said

 

[Lofty]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Well I answered my own question this weekend.

The answer is maybe.

I shot my first match, the PTS match in Cookville TN this weekend.

I had just got my GAP 10 in 6 Creedmoor the Wed before the match and didnt have enough time to load up ammo, dial it in and get the rifle zeroed before the match. So Bryan from K+M was nice enough to loan me one of their house guns, a .308 GAP built R700.

As a house gun, I could only guess at the thousands of rounds down the barrel of this rifle. I was shooting cheap Southwest run n gun ammo with 175 SMKs. I couldnt get better than 3/4 MOA out of this ammo. I got the rifle from Bryan Friday night....never shot it before. I had no dope for the gun, Poorboyshooter was nice enough to lend me his FDAC card to go by for data.

With all that being said.....I did horribly at the match.

BUT, it wasnt because of the gun or the caliber. It was totally me. Precision positional shooting is new to me and it kicked my ass. I REALLY need to work on that.

However, when I was taking shots prone and I could get into a stable position and let the rifle do its job, I was scoring first round hits out to 1000 yards that flat out surprised me.

I got damn near cleaning some of the longer stages that I saw guys with .260's, 6.5 CM, .243's struggling with at times.


So anyone that wants to compete and all you have is a capable .308, dont feel outgunned.

Are you going to win one of these matches with one? No....probably not. The top guys are winning with flatter calibers but thats more to do with them and their skills....the caliber they choose is more about giving them the edge over over great shooters.

But I have no doubt a good shooter behind a quality .308 can make it to the prize table no doubt.

 

[Cigarcop]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Work smarter not harder equates to shooting a 6/6.5 vs 308

Does the 308 work sure
but in the wind @ unknown distance, i will take a 6/6.5 every day of the week.

Look @ the winners circle how many 308 ya see?

enuff said </div></div>

I would have typed the exact words!

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

I won a F-Class match this weekend with my .308 GAP HRT shooting TR class, and we were shooting 600 yd bench rest targets. I even outscored the open class shooters.

 

[Cigarcop]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I won a F-Class match this weekend with my .308 GAP HRT shooting TR class, and we were shooting 600 yd bench rest targets. I even outscored the open class shooters. </div></div>

Good shooting!.. but the F-Class open guys must have sucked

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cigarcop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Good shooting!.. but the F-Class open guys must have sucked </div></div>
Actually the (only) 2 guys shooting open class are top regional shooters. This is the 1st time I've ever outscored them at an event. I'm sure they'd agree they had a bad day. Either that or I had a very good one. Likely the latter being true. Had these been full sized F-Class targets I would have been maybe 2 shots shy of cleaning the course. I even pulled off my level for use on a different rig and my pod loc was loose so I had to break cheak weld after each shot and re-level my rifle. I hadn't shot the HRT (or a bolt rig) in over 4 months so I was fully expecting to suck badly since I always run autos. The HRT simply shoots...I was running factory ammo

 

[The Surgeons Ghost]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

The 308 does not allow much room for error where as the 6mm do. A shooter that knows his/her 308 and how it reacts to certain conditions is very tough to beat. But, to learn how to shoot a 308 and be consistent takes a great deal of time. The 6mm's are great. They do take some of the work out of the equation. Like it or not we as a society have become lazy. We want the easy fix to a problem, in this case judging wind and distance. Here is where the 6mm's come in and shine. The 308 is not outclassed nor obsolete in matches, it is that most people don't want to spend the time to learn the rifle. The 6mm's take a lot of the guess work out and are, for the most part, less susceptible to shooter error.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dtibbals</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PS the theory that 308 should be separate etc is fine I guess, but in the real world do the bad guy get extra points or special treatment because they don't have as good of equipment, training or miss the first shot when we didn't? Seems to me all is fair in love and war.

DT</div></div>

I think what would make more sense than having a separate class for 308 is to have major and minor classes like they do in IPSC and USPSA.

30 cal's external ballistics suck, but the terminal ballistics make it an effective caliber in the real world.

This thread is about paper and steel, and for that, there is really no disadvantage to the smaller bores except barrel life.

Speaking of barrel life and caliber vs shooter's skill, in the high power arena, David Tubb has won Camp Perry, what, 11 times? And has done it with the 308, with the 6.5-08 (260 Rem), with the 243, and with the 6XC. He developed the 6XC solely because he was burning out barrels mid-season with the 243. So barrel life certainly is a factor, even for top competitors.

Top competitors will scrounge for whatever minute advantage they can get on the competition, but in the end, person pulling the trigger is far more important than the caliber. Yeah, theoretically, you get two shooters with the same skill level on a range and the one with the better ballistics is going to win, but when do you ever find two shooters of the exact same skill level?

 

[steve123]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Just a comment but there's only one guy I can think of that shoots a particular long range match I'm involved with that has the skills with a 308 and factory ammo to win this match.

That guy is one of the top firearms instructors in the nation. If I were to guess I'd bet he's shot more factory 308 than I've shot pistol ammo which is close to 6 digits.

No names like me need a cartridge with minimum wind drift.

 

[desertHK]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Steve you are just too humble my friend.

 

[popndrop]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

I am by no means an expert in the world of comp shooting, I have had zero experience in anything other than a couple local friendly club matches.
I am curious though about one thing - folks bring up the issue of seeing impact and recoil - which I find is very manageable with the use of a suppressor. Would it be reasonable to add this into the overall equation. I recognize that you could also put a can on a 6mm class rifle as well... so maybe it negates itself. But I've found that with a can on my .308 I have been able to really manage recoil and seeing impact is no problem at all.

It also could be that suppressors are not allowed in "Real" comps...so I look forward to hearing from the pros on this. I'd really like to get up to the level where I could compete on the Big Boy level, so school me now please.

 

[steve123]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

We've been missing you DHK. Come out and shoot with us once in a while.

 

[stalski]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

308 is good for utilitarian reasons. Lots of available ammo, cheap factory rounds, well known, etc.

The lighter, flatter shooters are better for matches.

I'm going to stick with 308 so when the zombies come I can more easily source ammo. This might cost me 1/2 MOA...so be it.