Is .50 BMG dead?

[phlegethon]

OK, obviously not. But can it still be competitive in ELR, or has it been made completely irrelevant by the .416 and .375 cartridges? I know there are some pretty high BC bullets available for .50 but that's not where the R&D is going these days. Just curious and I can't find much comparative ballistic data on the web.

 

[diverdon]

If the big fifty is going to have a chance at a slice of the increasingly stunt driven ELR future it might need a champion to develop a round that can top the stunts done with the other ELR rounds.

 

[flyer]

.50 is a pain in the ass. It's expensive, everything is different from rifles that can hold a round like .338LM or smaller and a lot of people who are willing to deal with that are willing to go even further with a .50 BMG sized wildcat.

The military will continue to use it and long range shooters who don't compete will use it too. I'm just not sure if it is competitive at 3,000+ yards.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

The ONLY thing keeping the 50 from finally having both feet in the grave is the fact that payloaded ammunition has not been successful in the 375 and 408 calibers.

In regards to the ELR world..the 50 has pretty much been dead for almost 2 decades.


Sincerely,
Theis

 

[diverdon]

The .338 Lapua Mag is not a peer of the .50. The .375 and .416 mentioned in the OP are peers to the .50.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Also for anyone that doesn't venture into the other subforums.

Here is why you hear people say biggest hurdle in getting the 50 to be competitive at ELR is the brass. See brass pic at thread #9354.
Disclaimer (I am NOT saying that is the sole issue in that situation but it did not help matters)

Start with post #9352 of page 188.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/whats-your-view-ii.6252956/page-188

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

We have seen surprisingly few 50s in matches to date particularly since we started Ko2M as an FCSA side match. The trend we see is towards increasingly larger calibers being preferred and ending up in the winners circle. First year was mostly 338s the next two years were mostly 375 dominated and this year we have seen a 400% increase in people planning on using 408-460s after the 416s dominance last year. The only person that I've seen reaching out and getting into the velocity niche to make 50s a worthwhile consideration is Randy Powel who was slinging projectiles in the realm of 800 grains over 3000 fps. One of the real challenges in all this is spotting misses at very long ranges to try and get on target. No matter what the ballistics are, being able to see a splash matters a lot and as we get further out with reliability it is going to start being a major factor in who wins.

-Alex

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

The ONLY thing keeping the 50 from finally having both feet in the grave is the fact that payloaded ammunition has not been successful in the 375 and 408 calibers.

I second this, until payload capacity is developed and field for 375/408/416/whatever, the .50 will linger on with military applications. Its not to say its dead...but it needs to start looking at assisted living options.

 

[THEIS]

I second this, until payload capacity is developed and field for 375/408/416/whatever, the .50 will linger on with military applications. Its not to say its dead...but it needs to start looking at assisted living options.

Hi,

While the payloaded 375/408/etc would drag the 50 further into its' grave, the 20x42 would kick it into its' grave and fill it with concrete.

The 20x42 provides more penetration and explosive capabilities than the 50 could ever hope for...and it does it from bolt action rifles with barrels down to 16" and still have 1000m capabilities.

All without having to go all the way up to the normal sized 20s..which we already know was tested several years ago but either the overall system weight or bone crushing recoil was not liked during its' Joint testing at Crane.

I am currently trying to get entire 20x42 system under 20lbs including 3lbs for optics and 5 round magazine.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Lynn Jr]

Me don't think the big 50 is quite dead yet.
Good brass from RWS and Lapua good bullets from a half dozen sources not 1 or 2 and easy to load for with off the shelf components no 6-12 month wait on good dies.
The trend I see as the distance keeps getting increased is to bigger and bigger chamberings.
The death will only come if the weight limits keep dropping.

 

[LRShooter101]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/07/guided-50-caliber-projectile-darpas-steerable-bullet/

Could be a game changer for .50 BMG!

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Me don't think the big 50 is quite dead yet.
Good brass from RWS and Lapua good bullets from a half dozen sources not 1 or 2 and easy to load for with off the shelf components no 6-12 month wait on good dies.
The trend I see as the distance keeps getting increased is to bigger and bigger chamberings.
The death will only come if the weight limits keep dropping.

FWIW, Ko2M won't drop below 40 pounds which still allows for most 50s.

The real question is kinda being missed I think. It isn't are 50s dead, it is why aren't they dominant. Big bullets can have stupidly high BCs and make a pretty decent splash on impact. The is plenty of brass to play with is you want to wildcat and there are a shitload of 50 BMG wildcats... I'm going to point again at our shit powder selection and say that if 80% load density with the slowest powders we can buy is the highest we can go safely then there is a hole in the market. Every year at shot show I go begging for access to slower powders and while Hodgdon/Alliant tell me to sod off, at least VV has the decency to tell me that they have powders that will do everything that match 50 shooters want but they aren't going to sell the to civilians because it is too small off a market...

-Alex

 

[THEIS]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/07/guided-50-caliber-projectile-darpas-steerable-bullet/

Could be a game changer for .50 BMG!

Hi,

Except that program has been closed and everyone has been "read" out of it.
In the end....it did not provide any increased accuracy when tested shooter to shooter.
Also it only functioned in the supersonic realm...once out of speed it basically crashed.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Advancement..whether with 50s or others in regards to ELR is going to come down to getting out of yester-decades pressure thresholds.
We can change that easier than getting different powders

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[camotoe]

It ain't dead.. Just lack of good cheap bullets and powder

 

[ShooterwithNoName]

Hi,

While the payloaded 375/408/etc would drag the 50 further into its' grave, the 20x42 would kick it into its' grave and fill it with concrete.

The 20x42 provides more penetration and explosive capabilities than the 50 could ever hope for...and it does it from bolt action rifles with barrels down to 16" and still have 1000m capabilities.

All without having to go all the way up to the normal sized 20s..which we already know was tested several years ago but either the overall system weight or bone crushing recoil was not liked during its' Joint testing at Crane.

I am currently trying to get entire 20x42 system under 20lbs including 3lbs for optics and 5 round magazine.

Sincerely,
Theis

First I've heard of the 20x42mm round, that thing is awesome. Being in such a compact package, it really would bury the old 50 in that role and at closer ranges. That's an awesome rifle.

@THEIS so do you have a build around this cartridge? It's a great idea, I like it.

 

[NB4Z]

Yeah it got left behind. The vehicle it was on ran over one of the spike strips in the yard and they just left it all there. I don't think they'll use it again no matter how cool it was mowing down walkers with it.

 

[Lynn Jr]

FWIW, Ko2M won't drop below 40 pounds which still allows for most 50s.

The real question is kinda being missed I think. It isn't are 50s dead, it is why aren't they dominant. Big bullets can have stupidly high BCs and make a pretty decent splash on impact. The is plenty of brass to play with is you want to wildcat and there are a shitload of 50 BMG wildcats... I'm going to point again at our shit powder selection and say that if 80% load density with the slowest powders we can buy is the highest we can go safely then there is a hole in the market. Every year at shot show I go begging for access to slower powders and while Hodgdon/Alliant tell me to sod off, at least VV has the decency to tell me that they have powders that will do everything that match 50 shooters want but they aren't going to sell the to civilians because it is too small off a market...

-Alex

Alex
Most are running 240+ grains of RE50 or 250+ grain of 20N29 with a 800 grain borerider.
In my cases that's pretty much 95% or more case fill.
The wildcats don't have readily available dies so unless your a machinist that adds a year to your build and another thousand dollars plus to your budget.
FCSA has always been about bench shooting and adding Sporter class didn't add much.
We have 4 FCSA members shoot with us off and on and only one shoots prone.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Hmm... I'm not even up to the shoulder in most of my loads and I'm seating just the drive band in the neck so I'm not displacing much. I'll go see what a 100% load is like in terms of mass but I'd be pretty stunned if I was even in the ballpark of 90%.

-Alex

 

[THEIS]

First I've heard of the 20x42mm round, that thing is awesome. Being in such a compact package, it really would bury the old 50 in that role and at closer ranges. That's an awesome rifle.

@THEIS so do you have a build around this cartridge? It's a great idea, I like it.

Hi,

I am building one right now....waiting on new 16" barrel.
Going to swap barrels from the 20x42, BMG and 375/BMG sized (Not BMG brass) cartridges.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Lynn Jr]

My cases hold 293 grains of water not powder. My load mimics Mark Avaiian at 258 grains of VV20N29

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Hi,

I am building one right now....waiting on new 16" barrel.
Going to swap barrels from the 20x42, BMG and 375/BMG sized (Not BMG brass) cartridges.

Sincerely,
Theis

Why? That cartridge was a dead end years ago just like the xm25. Its not like you are going to be lobbing grenades anyway...

-Alex

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

The 20x42 was dead years ago??
You may want to contact Ralf at Truvelo and ask him about his PO numbers from IDEX last month.

The Neopup was the issue with it years ago but several International manufacturers are making bolt action rifles for them today.

It has better capabilities than any payloaded BMG could ever desire to have.

I think you meant to say that "YOU" are not lobbing grenades since you have no idea of what "I" am going to be doing and/or working with .

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

I would genuinely be curious about their numbers. I've seen cool stuff from Truvelo over the years but it never seemed to go anywhere.

If you are lobbing munitions then happy hunting

-Alex

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Truvelo does seem to never get anywhere in regards to the USA market, but that is not entirely on them.

Majority of that is because of the firearm classification system of the USA.

Truvelo pretty much has the MENA market in regards to large caliber shoulder fired bolt action systems.

They just signed last month to equip the Algerian Border Patrol with 20x42 weapon systems.
They are teaming up with NIMR to have a mount manufactured onto every vehicle they build for Algeria to be able to attach/detach the 20x42 weapon system,

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Lynn Jr]

Here is a 50 showing the driving band at the top of the neck with a 750 grain Lapua.

 

[phlegethon]

Here is a 50 showing the driving band at the top of the neck with a 750 grain Lapua.

Is that to reduce bearing surface area?

 

[Lynn Jr]

The borerider section that sits on top of the lands is 0.510 the wasteband section is 0.505 and lastly the drive and section is 0.512 gets engraved.
And yes it reduces the drag while sealing hopefully.

 

[Lynn Jr]

FWIW, Ko2M won't drop below 40 pounds which still allows for most 50s.

The real question is kinda being missed I think. It isn't are 50s dead, it is why aren't they dominant. Big bullets can have stupidly high BCs and make a pretty decent splash on impact. The is plenty of brass to play with is you want to wildcat and there are a shitload of 50 BMG wildcats... I'm going to point again at our shit powder selection and say that if 80% load density with the slowest powders we can buy is the highest we can go safely then there is a hole in the market. Every year at shot show I go begging for access to slower powders and while Hodgdon/Alliant tell me to sod off, at least VV has the decency to tell me that they have powders that will do everything that match 50 shooters want but they aren't going to sell the to civilians because it is too small off a market...

-Alex

Sandow
Isn't Hunter Class the only FCSA competition shot prone from a bipod?
I ask because in reading my rulebook it says 50 pounds.
I then went on the Facebook site for ko2m and it says the 45 pound limit has been extended to 2020 because of all the existing rifles not making the 40 pound rule and allowing those shooters to "scrape out" which I imagine is scrap out there existing barrels?
It appears the only legal FCSA rifles would be a Benchrest lightgun if you add a bipod?

 

[clcustom1911]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/07/guided-50-caliber-projectile-darpas-steerable-bullet/

Could be a game changer for .50 BMG!

That DARPA EXACTO gig was tested 4 years ago!! Amazing technology.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Sandow
Isn't Hunter Class the only FCSA competition shot prone from a bipod?
I ask because in reading my rulebook it says 50 pounds.
I then went on the Facebook site for ko2m and it says the 45 pound limit has been extended to 2020 because of all the existing rifles not making the 40 pound rule and allowing those shooters to "scrape out" which I imagine is scrap out there existing barrels?
It appears the only legal FCSA rifles would be a Benchrest lightgun if you add a bipod?

The fact that hunter allows for a 50 pound gun doesn't mean everyone has one. I can't think of many I've seen on the line that are actually that heavy. I've shot hunter with a gun under 35 pounds for 15 years. There are pretty much no common platforms that are that heavy. This is part of why bitching about 40 pounds being too light of a gun gets ignored. That is still a heavy damn gun by any standard.

Only 14% of guns shot last year will be too heavy next year and we are aware of 2 people that had to rebuild guns over 50 pounds for last year. 2 years is plenty of time to swap out some parts and get under the limit.

Where are you seeing 45 pounds out to 2020? Might be a typo. The limit will drop to 40 next year but that will be the last time we shift it down. If nobody puts for extra incentive to shoot guns in the 25 pound range like David Tubb has then we will probably come up with a way to do it ourselves (not a light class though, that isn't going to happen).

The other thing I'd point out is that while some shooters may bitch about the weight limit, it has helped encourage development of progressively lighter stocks from McMillian, Manners and others. It has also made barrel lightening tactics like Tacomhq's an attractive line of development. Restriction can drive development. Unless it is nascar, then it just drives perpetuating shitty old tech and boring ass racing...

-Alex

 

[Lynn Jr]

Facebook

 

[Clearlight]

Until the same variety of tasty ammo availiable for the 50 , is availiable for 375 , 416 etc it’s going to
be around for a long time in Mil use . As far as civilian ELR goes , yeah not so good . Perhaps the best
option is use of that fat case for wildcats , a 300 WSM ish looking 50 variant is something a few folks
are working on . A lot of the 375 variants I’m seeing are long thin powder columns , the rest of the
shooting world has moved away from these designs over the past few decades .

 

[THEIS]

Perhaps the best option is use of that fat case for wildcats , a 300 WSM ish looking 50 variant is something a few folks
are working on . A lot of the 375 variants I’m seeing are long thin powder columns , the rest of the
shooting world has moved away from these designs over the past few decades .

Hi,

Absolutely in regards to rest of the shooting world has already learned and moved away from long thin powder columns.
Why certain entities in the ELR world are attempting to go that route even though all the smaller cartridges have documented the issues for years now is beyond me.

Now in regards to the fat cases pertaining to actual BMG brass......it will be interesting to see some of the 375/BMG wildcats utilizing the bi-metal high pressure cases from Blackwater Ammunition.
They have been able to test their cases up to 80k psi without getting any of the problems that standard BMG cases get at even remotely high pressures.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Lynn Jr]

Theis
Are you saying the link you posted was a brass issue?
It looks like the guy didn't know how to reload to me.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Notice the Disclaimer in that post but let's not sit here and act like there are no known and documented history of BMG brass issues. Especially if even remotely increasing pressure over standard pressures.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Mark Coffey]

Is the .50 BMG DEAD???

It depends greatly on your purpose....

For competitive ELR- Yes

For recreational or SHTF- No

Surplus .50 BMG Ball Ammo can be bought for around $2.50 each. And the SHTF Ammo like silver tip (armor-piercing incendiary), blue tip (incendiary), black tip (armor piercing) and tracers are not even an option for the other calibers.

338 Lapua is expensive and 375 & 408 are even higher. Unless, you reload (which I do). Even reloading can get expensive. If you want the latest and greatest components.

I have experience with 338, 375, 416 and .50 out to 2600 yards.

Spotting your shot with the .50 is a lot easier then anything I have seen when shooting past 2000 yards! No it isn’t as accurate.... But, if you can see your shot and you can’t make corrections!

Not to mention barrel life....

Calibers and firearms are TOOLS....

Are hammers dead since the nail Gun was invented???

Semper Fi

 

[Lynn Jr]

Hi,

Notice the Disclaimer in that post but let's not sit here and act like there are no known and documented history of BMG brass issues. Especially if even remotely increasing pressure over standard pressures.

Sincerely,
Theis

Theis
Am I to believe there are no brass issues with all the other chamberings?

Is there documented brass issues with Lapua RWS and TZZ brass or just the cheap crap made in third world countries like South Africa Chile and the Dominican Republic?
Any problems with 375/408 brass from Australia? Or is everyone selling there Peterson brass to but Bertram?
Just because it hasn't dominated the KO2M doesn't mean it's dead.
We have guys hitting 7/10 at 2054 yards and spotting misses is way easier as well.
Any records set at 1000 yards with ANY 338,375,408 or 416 that you can point out?
The 50 requires a big action so the current trend is for the smaller calibers. Once the 3000 yard hits become more commonplace the smaller calibers will fall off just like the 338's after 2500 yards.

Edit please note that 2 out of the top 3 in 2017 can't use there gear anymore.
And Walt Wilkinson how did he do with his factory gun?

 

[Milepost]

Hi,

Notice the Disclaimer in that post but let's not sit here and act like there are no known and documented history of BMG brass issues. Especially if even remotely increasing pressure over standard pressures.

Sincerely,
Theis

I would agree with you Theis but you can still do an improved version of the the 50 BMG that has about 12% more capacity and then have RCC engineer the case to handle the higher pressures. However this higher pressure thicker case design will lose about 4-6% percent of capacity. Still, with these changes one should be able to push an 800 grain bullet to around 3000fps with a 36" barrel Of course the recoil would be pretty severe at this power level in a sub 40 lb package...

The biggest problem I see is the limitations of available powder. This isn't just problem for the 50BMG but all of the max overbore ELR platforms like the 375/416 Barrett.

 

[THEIS]

Theis
Am I to believe there are no brass issues with all the other chamberings?
Absolutely not. I hope someone has not mentioned that, because I sure did not.

Is there documented brass issues with Lapua RWS and TZZ brass or just the cheap crap made in third world countries like South Africa Chile and the Dominican Republic?
Yes, I will dig up the information. But mainly when necking down to the 375 and 416 offerings which increase pressure over the standardized "BMG" case pressures.

Any problems with 375/408 brass from Australia? Or is everyone selling there Peterson brass to but Bertram?
See reply to question 1.

Just because it hasn't dominated the KO2M doesn't mean it's dead.
In terms of ballistic abilities, do you really see a 50BMG keeping up with the 375 and 416 offerings?


Any records set at 1000 yards with ANY 338,375,408 or 416 that you can point out?
Please advise as to what "sanctioning" organizations allow them at their 1000yd matches.

The 50 requires a big action so the current trend is for the smaller calibers. Once the 3000 yard hits become more commonplace the smaller calibers will fall off just like the 338's after 2500 yards.
Absolutely. IMO I do not see why more ELR shooters are NOT going to BMG sized actions to begin with.

Edit please note that 2 out of the top 3 in 2017 can't use there gear anymore.
And Walt Wilkinson how did he do with his factory gun?
How many from 2018 are affected by the weight limits? I completely understand you are against the weight limits.

Hi,

See above in Red.

As @Milepost mentioned....RCC can improve case designs to perform at higher pressures and that is where IMO we are going to see the next "advancement" in not only ELR capabilities but in the interior ballistics advancements as a whole.

For years and years cartridge cases have always been the weak link in terms of operating pressure thresholds but now with lathe turned cases, bi-metal cases, etc etc; we can see that cartridge cases have the ability to operate at higher pressures than previously thought possible. SO now we need to increase functional operating pressure thresholds on the receiver side of the house.

Why is 80k psi not the "common" pressure limit in this day and age?
Why are we will limiting ourselves to pressure limits of 50 years ago?
Does our powder choices increase if we were to look at 80k-90k being operating pressure IF cartridge cases and receivers were built to function at that pressure?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Lynn Jr]

Theis
I can hardly read your post as it's all black with a black background on my end.
In the 1980's they made what are called "Steelhead Cases" that where two pieces. The casehead was made out of stainless and the body of the case was brass
This solved the pressure problems shooters where seeing 40 years ago.

International Ammunition Association – International Ammunition Association

cartridgecollectors.org

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@Lynn Jr
That is a pretty nice history piece. Do you have one of those by chance?
Do you know how popular those cartridges were in that timeframe?
Is it because they came "unformed" as to their lack of popularity (As I am assuming they were not popular).

The Blackwater bi-metal goes up a little more than those "Steelhead Cases".

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Lynn Jr]

Theis
I gave mine away and i didn't have the 50 BMG model.
Back then I was shooting a 300 Ackley in 1000 yard Benchrest competition and Weatherby and Norma brass was the weakest link lasting 2-3 firings before the primers could no longer be staked or glued into place.

 

[LastShot300]

Why is 80k psi not the "common" pressure limit in this day and age?
Why are we will limiting ourselves to pressure limits of 50 years ago?
Does our powder choices increase if we were to look at 80k-90k being operating pressure IF cartridge cases and receivers were built to function at that pressure?

Sincerely,
Theis

I think the name of the game is economics. How many really need this increased performance? What about barrels? etc..etc... except for some niche applications like the military, there is no balance point to make these improvements worth the effort and the extra money...in the end, it's just a bad business. Law of Supply

 

[Clearlight]

Hi,

Absolutely in regards to rest of the shooting world has already learned and moved away from long thin powder columns.
Why certain entities in the ELR world are attempting to go that route even though all the smaller cartridges have documented the issues for years now is beyond me.

Now in regards to the fat cases pertaining to actual BMG brass......it will be interesting to see some of the 375/BMG wildcats utilizing the bi-metal high pressure cases from Blackwater Ammunition.
They have been able to test their cases up to 80k psi without getting any of the problems that standard BMG cases get at even remotely high pressures.

Sincerely,
Theis

223 with 80 VLD , x47 with 130 AR , 300NM Imp with 230 Hybrid , and proto 375 ( not fireformed ) . The
375 is doing an easy 3255 with a mild ( 170 g ) fireforming load , and using a 361 Warner for fireforming .
Expecting over 3400 fps with final load . More details we we get some time to dial everything in .

 

[Clearlight]

^^ We are waiting on a 50 case friendly version of the AMP annealer , the x 47 case in the pic has been
fired 23 times and AMP annealed 21 times , still going strong . With our wildcat cases being tricky to form ,
the new AMP 50 annealer should give us good case life .

 

[Lynn Jr]

I am forming straight up 375/50 BMG and the neck-shoulder junction is too soft requiring multiple baby steps if using new brass.
I switched to used 50 BMG brass and problem solved no more collapsed cases.
I run the brass through a 50bmg full length die then neck it down with a 416 Barrett die then into the 375/50bmg die.
Fireforming today. 350 Sierras are flying 3500fps with 200 grains of RE50 but best accuracy is at 3450 FPS.
Warner 361 testing as soon as I can get some powder in the cases.

 

[Geno C.]

223 with 80 VLD , x47 with 130 AR , 300NM Imp with 230 Hybrid , and proto 375 ( not fireformed ) . The
375 is doing an easy 3255 with a mild ( 170 g ) fireforming load , and using a 361 Warner for fireforming .
Expecting over 3400 fps with final load . More details we we get some time to dial everything in .

View attachment 7052745

I was talking with George from badlands and I’m thinking a 375 like yours but a little shorter might be pretty slick?

 

[Lynn Jr]

Getting ready to shoot the flatlines after seating. Going to start at 186 grains of RE50 and go up to 204 if I don't see any pressure.
Case capacity is way too large. I am at 80%
Going to try 872 next to get the fill % up.

 

[Andielouroo]

Getting ready to shoot the flatlines after seating. Going to start at 186 grains of RE50 and go up to 204 if I don't see any pressure.
Case capacity is way too large. I am at 80%
Going to try 872 next to get the fill % up.

Any update on this?