Is 6.5 Creedmoor just not competitive anymore?
- Thread starter luketmv
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- 6.5 creedmoor 6mm prs
I shot 6.5 CM my first two years in PRS and the rifle itself was awesome. To me, one of the biggest reasons to move to my 6mm BRA was recoil management, which has been reduced dramatically, especially since I kept the rifle weight at 22lbs. I'm able to stay "closer to" the target after each shot. I'm older, so couldn't see bullet trace even with my 6.5 CM, but, you may lose that ability with the 6mm based on your eyes. My velocity between the two is very close (2,750 fps with 6.5 CM vs. 2,760 fps with 6 BRA). If you're just getting into PRS and you have everything for a 6.5 CM, then I'd start out with that so you have minimal investment to see if you're even going to like the sport. Just my 0.02.
Ye i figured it came down to recoil and shooting straighter. But giving up that extra punch to see some splashes from a miss. Because i miss a lot XD. Seems like a bad trade off.
Keep shooting the 65CM until you miss less and consume the barrel - then switch to 6 something
When reloading components were unobtanium I saw a number of shooters switch back to 65CM (consuming the 65CM components already in hand) for practice and shoot their 6 somethings only in matches
Depends what you like to shoot. If you like the 6.5 and set up for it and don't want to jump into another cartridge then shoot it. There are a number of good brakes on the market that cut the recoil of the 6.5 Creedmoor plenty well enough and paired with a properly set up, read heavier, rifle you can do just fine. You can also use a lighter bullet and shoot it a little slower and just throttle it back like everyone is doing with 6mms now. Will cut recoil even more. Will it be the same as a 30 pound 6br in the barricade benchrest matches, no but you will be able to stay on target just fine.
"PRS" is a game that you will find the calibers ever changing and gear ever changing etc to chase the podium but it's up to you what you want to use to have fun and shoot. You can chase the newest or shoot what you have. Your choice. I have shot the 6.5 Creedmoor in matches before there was a PRS and still do when I feel like it. Will always have one in the safe.
"PRS" is a game that you will find the calibers ever changing and gear ever changing etc to chase the podium but it's up to you what you want to use to have fun and shoot. You can chase the newest or shoot what you have. Your choice. I have shot the 6.5 Creedmoor in matches before there was a PRS and still do when I feel like it. Will always have one in the safe.
Fair enough. Only reason I brought this up is because im soon due a new barrel and was looking at what’s on the market and if its worth the investment,
That comes down to your wallet and what you are chasing. I am sure you will get people coming in with recommendations for all sorts of 6mms so if you didn't have any 6.5 bullets left and didn't mind buying new brass, dies, mag spacer kits or new mags etc etc then jump and go with a 6mm or a .22 etc. All comes down to you.
The 6mm is nothing new in this sport as they were started to be used in 2004 with the .243 but now the case is just getting smaller as back then you weren't always given your range to target and flatter shooting helped make hits and why some 6mms got bad reps as barrel burners as people were shooting them at 3200fps. Now knowing all the ranges there isn't a huge advantage to going faster so slowing them down is the thing now.
I have shot a 6.5 CM in matches before and did not have an issue with it at all. The difference in a heavy chassis and a quality brake recoil wise between that and a 243 cal is minimal to me. It is going to vary from person to person. I now shoot a 6mm just out of preference and the lighter bullets are kinda cool. All preference.
I started with a 6.5x47 that was pretty light by todays standards. Probably around 15-16#s I then switched to a 6br that weighed around 20#s, huge difference in performance and my scores instantly went up my first match. It was noticeable how much easier it was to spot my impacts/misses. This is a combination of heavier and lower recoiling round. I have never shot a 20# 6.5 creed so can’t compare but I’m sticking with 6mm of some flavor, currently have a 6br and a Dasher.
6.5 is in fact still competitive. The question is, are you competitive?
I think for some competitions that have a minimum power factor floor (NRL Hunter for example) the 6.5CM is still very competitive (and needed).
Shooting 6.5CM from prone, no issue with recoil and staying on target to spot your hit/miss. But for positional shooting… I had to work at it even with a decent muzzle brake.
Shooting 6.5CM from prone, no issue with recoil and staying on target to spot your hit/miss. But for positional shooting… I had to work at it even with a decent muzzle brake.
Ive shot 6mmCM and 6.5 at 1000 yard matches and the 6 is def. harder to spot misses, by a lot.
I also didnt notice much recoil difference, some? yes... but with 24-26" heavy barreled rifles, chassis, big scopes, bipods... all that weight eats up the recoil and I also had zero problems staying on target with a 6.5
If you want to go 6mm and not burn a barrel up in 800 rounds, id look hard at the 6mm arc. Its the easy button (to me) of the 6mm, to find componets for anyways.
a 20-22" 6mm arc will have zero recoil and have no problems hitting 1000 yards and use 10-15 gr of powder less than the 6mm cm
I had my 24" rpr 6mm running 108's at 3150 years ago... man that was a sweet rifle... but i bet that barrel would have been toast in 700 rounds.
Maybe a little more than that but not much of shot in matches. That is where the 6 Creed got its barrel burner rep. When it first came out around that time in 2012 and people were running them that fast barrels were going in 1000-1200 rounds. Run it slower at around 2950fps and you will get close to double that. My .243 was shooting at 2995fps with 115s and at 1880 rounds was still a 1/2 moa rifle. Lower velocity will lead to longer life.
You’d be surprised how many top guys especially out west are actually going back to a 6.5 and with heavies. 153’s etc. Nice and slow.
Hi, I am Morgun. I shot the 6.5 Creedmoor all last year. The year prior I shot it 50/50 with my Dasher and decided I prefer it, so I decided to stick with it. I still keep a Dasher around, but I shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor with a 156 Berger EOL @2680 99% of the time.
I have talked about the pros and cons of a 6 BR variant vs a 6.5 Creed several times on my podcast. It comes down to personal preference. The easy button for PRS is a 6 Dasher with a 109 LR Hybrid going 2800-2860. If that doesn't shoot, there is something else wrong, it isn't the load. On top of that it is a great balance between ballistics and recoil. If you are shooting 140s out of a 6.5 Creed, then it is no question, the 6 Dasher is better. If you are shooting 153-156 class bullets, the 6.5 creed then has some possible benefits that come at a cost. With a 6.5 Creed the down range effects of the bullet are amplified and ballistically it is slightly superior. I do not like the recoil of a 140 compared to a 156 in a 20 pound rifle. The 156s have a longer and slower recoil impulse that is slightly more controllable to me. I know a lot of people that have had a 6.5 spun up because they see me winning with it and think it must because of the ballistics. Yes, the ballistics are slightly improved when compared to a 109, however, it is a lot less perceivable than one would think. If you are used to the recoil of a 6 Dasher and switch to a 6.5 Creed, you will notice a difference in the recoil. From there you have to decide if your ability to manage the recoil along with the amplified down range effects compliment your shooting ability better or not. For me, I am pretty good at managing recoil and will make sure I see what is happening, but that takes some work and practice. The 6 Dasher is and will remain the easy button for PRS style shooting, but before the BR variants were popular there was the 6.5 Creed and 6.5X47 Lapua and they aren't dead yet.
@roperking Morgun, I actually went the other direction with my 6.5 creed and found shooting the 130s to be great but never tried the heavies. Less powder and still getting good speed with what seems like light recoil. What are your thoughts on running the 6.5 with the lighter bullets? Pros and cons? Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
If that is what you have, then it will work fine. I personally would rather run a 109 out of a Dasher long before I ran 130s or 140s out of a 6.5CM. A 109 out of a Dasher has essentially the same ballistics as a 130/140 out of a 6.5CM and a lot less recoil. That is why almost everyone transitioned to a Dasher or BR variant. The reason I like the heavies is the BC allows me to run them extremely slow, while maintaining similar wind performance and gain back the increased down-range effects. The slower speed seems to make the recoil impulse slower and more controllable in a 20lb rifle than the 140s. Essentially if I was to put numbers on it, I feel like I lose 100 yards up close and gain 200 out farther. If a Dasher's sweet spot is 300-800, then my 6.5 is 400-1000. That is the range of seeing bullets reliably. That is a rough estimation, and obviously I see bullets closer than 300-400 and I also see them farther than 800-1000 with both cartridges, but the numbers are more to show my thoughts on the matter. With the 130s, due to speed and recoil I would say that the close range is 450 and the LR is 850-900 so the range is something like 450-850, in that case I would rather have a Dasher with less recoil. Speed of the projectile is one of the problems of the 6CM and fast 22s for PRS. When I shoot my 22GT, it almost seems like the gun goes off and bullet hits the target simultaneously. This makes it extremely difficult to see impacts up close. When I was testing the 22GT I had a tough time reliably spotting impacts on plate until at least 400, even though recoil was less. I started to realize physiologically my brain needed time to recover from the explosion that just happened 2 feet from my face, then it could pick the target back up and I could spot the shot. Ideally your eye is on target waiting for the bullet to get there rather than scrambling to make it there the same time the bullet does and in my experience tenths of a second make a difference. So with the 22s the sweet spot is like 400-700 and with the 6CM it is like 400-800. From what I can tell the closer the range is in the sweet spot that I have arbitrarily roughed out, the easier it is to see the shots a 100 yards within the range. Essentially watching impacts at 400 with a Dasher is a piece of cake, where it may take some work with my 6.5CM with heavies. Bottom line is there are pros and cons of each and like I have stated before, you have to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze and what best compliments your strengths.
Hey thanks so much for the reply. I’ve read it a few times to try and soak it all in. So what is say a target speed for the 156? I would like to load some up and feel this recoil pulse you explain. Never know till you try right. Any general load data? Thanks
Same as what everyone else has said, my son has started shooting some matches with me and what I’ve noticed, he runs a 16lb 6.5 creed and I run a 22lb 6GT. His loads with 130 Hybrids are pretty stout where I’m running 109’s at 2800fps. Watching him on positional stages you can see how sharp the recoil is compared to my 6GT and part of the difference is in the weight of our guns. But when shooting troop lines out to 1000+ I can tell when I hit the plate but couldn’t tell you where it hits it. With his 6.5 you can definitely see where his impacts are.
A stout load and a 16 pound rifle will of course give more recoil but if he had a heavier rifle and a lighter load with the same bullet the difference wouldn’t be as dramatic. Have you tried a lighter load? Assuming the weight is where it is to make it easier for him to move around with rifle?
He had it built for hunting and plinking way before we decided to shoot a few matches.
No problem. My current load is going 2680 with N150 at the moment. I have ran the 156s at 2680 with H4350, N160, and N150 with no issues. I am not sure what the current charge is, but 2750ish seems to be the point where you hit pressure with those powders. I like to stay a ways away from that. I have won a couple match shooting them 2740 in 110 degree weather, but not on purpose. I didn't have a ton of prep time and changed lots of powder and figured I'd check velocity when I got there. I worked fine, but I dumped almost a grain of powder before loading for the next match. (I generally don't have time to do load development in the traditional sense so I confirm loads by shooting matches with them lol) They seem to shoot great anywhere from 2650-2700 and I try to shoot for 2680.
A note on the recoil impulse: I 100% would shoot a dasher and 109s over 130/140s just because I feel like I don't gain enough to justify the extra recoil. I shoot 140s out my 11.5 pound NRL Hunter 6.5CM due to the increased recoil of the 156s in the lighter setup. When I shoot 140s and 156s back to back in my heavy rifle the difference in the recoil isn't as noticeable to me and the impulse seems to be a bit longer. I am able to control the 156 recoil no problem, but it is significantly more than a Dasher (it is only 12 grains less than a 168... 308
). Do the 130s fall somewhere it the middle on recoil, obviously; however, why shoot them if you have the option of shooting a Dasher and 109s? In my mind the recoil combined with the speed of the 130/140s is going to make spotting close shots similar to the 156s and the down range effects will fall somewhere in the middle making the arbitrary range I talked about show an edge to both the 156s at distance and 109s up close. All of that being said, if that is what you have, use them. We are splitting hairs and the difference won't determine who wins or loses the match. Most of the time it won't even change your score.
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All great advice. Thanks for your time. I’m surely not winning championships like yourself and do have a stockpile of the 130s. Maybe I’ll tinker with the 156 at some point but will for now keep rocking what I have. I was thinking recently of slowing my 130s down just a little and maybe this will soften the recoil a bit. I switched to a hellfire match from using an ultra 7 and added 3lbs to the rifle beginning last year and the brake and weight made a substantial difference in seeing what was happening down range and it did help me a bunch last season.
This thread alone has me reconsidering rebarreling my 6.5 CM Tikka to 6GT. I've had great success with my 6.5 CM as a hunting rifle and range toy. 6.5 CM will be plug and play in the Tikka CTR platform I dropped off.
I was already thinking of switching one of my rifles back from 6GT to 6.5CM. I liked the CM but it just seemed to make sense to shoot both rifles in GT and not have to make up two different loads when getting ready for a match.
Yes it’s nice, knowing both rifles shoot the 105’s at the same spot with the same load. One breaks down, just pick up the other. But I do miss the ease of spotting long range hits with the 6.5 and that 6.5 barrel was by far the best shooting barrel I ever owned.
I actually have a 6.5 ready to go, it’s an RPR that’s been rebuilt to be a lighter rifle for my wife, Brenda. It really needs a better scope. Interesting, and I’ve reported this before, without knowing, I actually built a rifle for the new sportsman class before the sportsman class even existed.
Yes it’s nice, knowing both rifles shoot the 105’s at the same spot with the same load. One breaks down, just pick up the other. But I do miss the ease of spotting long range hits with the 6.5 and that 6.5 barrel was by far the best shooting barrel I ever owned.
I actually have a 6.5 ready to go, it’s an RPR that’s been rebuilt to be a lighter rifle for my wife, Brenda. It really needs a better scope. Interesting, and I’ve reported this before, without knowing, I actually built a rifle for the new sportsman class before the sportsman class even existed.
For a primary hunting rifle and a recreational steel banger, the 6.5 Creedmoor in a Tikka UPR stock or Bravo works great. I can see my hits and misses on the KYL on the range at 600 yards with the 6.5 cm. I shoot 20" bores suppressed at 2650 FPS.
So I have a Terminus Zeus Quick Change action. I have barrels for 6.5cm and 6gt. I primarily use the 6gt for prs. I like the speed and low recoil much more but you do give up that splash on plate.
In a non competitive environment where I’m shooting off a bipod and rear bag on a bench, I can sufficiently spot impacts with 6.5 CM. I also like to shoot at lower magnifications to get a wider FOV.
If I was shooting competition, I’d lean on 6mm.
I can as well. I shot 6.5cm my first year of prs and was able to snag a 12th place finished as my highest but yeah 6gt is easier to spot at distance.
One of the ways you can bridge the gap is to shoot the 130 AR hybrids out of a 6.5. Get them up to about 2850 and now you have very similar ballistics to a 105 hybrid. IMO the best 2 paths with the 6.5 are either run the 153/156 slow and deal with the additional recoil for slightly better wind performance and more time to spot the shot or run the lighter bullet faster, which gives you less recoil and mimics the 6m bullets, just with a bit more energy on target. You need a 7.5 twist barrel to shoot the heavies without taking a BC penalty from the stability factor. So if you have a 8 twist, the 130s are an easy answer. They are also cheaper and easier to source in bulk.
Or you can be like everyone else and do a 25 creed/x47 slinging the super high BC 135 Berger .25 cals around 27-800 fps.
Or you can be like everyone else and do a 25 creed/x47 slinging the super high BC 135 Berger .25 cals around 27-800 fps.
I saw Colon was running the 140’s at 2850 ish at the ag cup. Super fast for those.
I saw that too, and wonder if it was a misprint, because IIRC I think he mentioned on the podcast that that’s the speed he runs/ran his Dasher?
Seems real hot for a guy who’s talked about staying away from pressure issues with match loads…
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