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Is America worth saving? The quick reference of freedom...
- Thread starter GTOJOSH
- Start date
With the bundys the problem was bringing in outside LE who had no connection to the community. If you are a local guy you aren’t going to shoot the rancher who lives over the hill from you because he is conducting an armed protest. You might arrest him if you have to but you won’t shoot him even if you don’t know him personally because you have a feel for local folks.
Funny, they even bring in outside Leo for natural disasters now, and if your accused of killing a cop, Leo’s come from everywhere. When that guy shot those state troopers there are accounts of all kinds of people in tactical gear with no badges and no external form of id holding people at gunpoint, and all the roadblocks?
I've been following your responses throughout this thread and I agree with you - it is past time to stop talking and to take care of the problem. I have the same feelings.
I am ready to give up everything to defend our Constitution, Liberties, and way of life. I realize that I have much to lose, but sometimes it is necessary - not just for me but for our future generations.
HOWEVER, since I have so much to lose I want to make sure it is not in vain. When it's go time I'll throw everything I've got into it, but let's make sure it really is go time. It has to be coordinated and everyone that is going to take part needs to do it. I don't want to just be an example or footnote. I think many people have that same thought.
So when will we know it's go-time? I'm not sure but I think we will know. How did the Founding Fathers know?
when tyrants start getting shot in the face they will stay home like the cowards they really are.
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
― Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn , The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
― Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn , The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956
You have the list of persons who signed to pass that law, can't be many people. You round them up and have a Patriot Tribunals to determined if crimes were committed against the Constitution, gun bans would be an act of infringement pretty low bar to prove. Evidence would be their signatures on the document ,again undisputed public information. It is our duty to protect the Constitution ,we don't have to rely on corrupt politicians to handle this for us, it is our obligation as Americans.
The shot heard around the world? Guns are being confiscated and innocent people shot by cops all the time. I think our problem is there are to many brainwashed people. I think the bundys though they were gonna be that spark and it would start then and their numbers would swell. What is it gonna take to light this powder keg?
There lies the problem. I don’t think go time will be so readily identifiable. One could argue we are already past that with several cases of blatant murder, destruction/taking of property, political bullying and so on. Nor will your enemy be easily identifiable. They have a knack of being the grey man as well, when needed.
We may even need to implement a check in system at some point and check in daily or weekly or something because sadly we live in scary times. It wouldn’t be all that difficult to track someone online making such posts as some here and then those people simply just disappear. Sounds crazy huh? But is it really?
And who is to say something might not happen to make an example? Sad we even have to think this way but that just goes to show too much power has already been given. When the people are scared of what is supposed to be a free society and government then you know there is a problem.
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Nah, most 18 year old kids join up for adventure or to get away from a life of doing what the three generations before did for a living.
The reality of military service quickly dawns on them and you either suck it up and bear down or really have a miserable existence for 4 years.
At the end of the enlistment is when you finally start to make in roads into the first term enlistee and they are better able to function and perform and than begin to realize what and why what they are doing is important after visiting some of the world's shitholes.
Truth be told the mil gets little value out of a 4 year enlistment, cant imagine they got anything out of two year terms and three year terms. The country was better off though because it had a population that better understood what military service means.
In my world military service should be compulsory - Every person between the ages of 18 and 40 should be required to give 2 years of "Service" to the Nation. Unless excused for medical reasons, 2 years of public service in the Military or otherwise should be compulsory.
Just my opinion.
VooDoo
Just my opinion.
VooDoo
I have conflicting views on that. I agree it would help instill a lot of responsibility and hopefully patriotism into our young people but the libertarian in me doesn't want anything to be compulsory.
I think it should be required for any politician and especially the “commander in chief”
I want a draft. No more subsidized college loans, start a fucking draft and build up our Combat Engineer corps, have them build a northern wall and a southern wall. Send all college bound draftees to combat zones. Let them get fucked up so we can pretend t thank them for their service while saying what dumb fucks they are behind their backs. Fuck them, Draft them all. Including Bitches.
And while I love that our military is all volenteer, I think we are slowly killing off any true Americans.. if you think about it the ones to survive our wars in great numbers have been mostly the idealistic tree hugging anti gun pacifist excuses for people that don’t even go, and the illegals.. the kind of people we want have been steadily dying here and overseas.
Q
QuickNDirty
Guest
I definitely don't want to sacrifice everything for something trivial and meaningless. The idea of the USA, however, is such a big one, and is worth more than everything.
@SilentStalkr mentioned that I've got an idea involving votes, but that's only part of the idea.
The goal is to get the people that think and believe like me in cities across the country to work together to fix shit.
Some of the main things these people need to do are:
1.) Spread awareness/recruit
2.) Find viable candidates for public office and get them to run
3.) Apply pressure where it is needed
A number of interesting things can happen if these rules can be followed.
1.) Whatever the consensus is must be done even if you don't like it.
2.) You MUST follow through on your commitments, EVERY time. Your word MUST be as good as gold.
Some local possibilities:
1.) Fix infrastructure
2.) Restore sanity in schools
3.) Restore sanity in police departments
4.) Restore sanity in local government
5.) Restore freedom
We can even do nation-wide local protests based on the assumption that some tyranny in some place is a personal attack on all of us. Your government in Chicago Illinois is my government in Pasadena, TX and your bullshit is my bullshit and it pisses me off here just as much as it pisses you off there. Therefore, I must make my voice known to my government that I do not support that bullshit going on in Chicago and I will not stand for it here. It's a weird way of looking at it, but I think it'll be incredibly effective.
That Q movement has one damn good slogan... WWG1WGA - Where We Go One, We Go All.
I interpret that the same way I interpreted all those times a friend of mine in middle school (I was average sized in elementary, smallest kid in middle school, and average again in HS). "If you fuck with him, you fuck with me". These are words I live by these days, and I think we need more of that.
I can't speak for you, the reader of this, on what you think and believe, but I'm guessing what you read next is gonna resonate on some level.
At times in my past, and even today, I have reservations when considering what embracing freedom really means.
I understand that embracing freedom, embracing the first 10 amendments, means that I embrace cold hearted ruthless criminals to be able to believe whatever they want to believe, say whatever they want to say, own whatever weapons they want to own, be secure in their person, places, and effects, and so on. I believe that the truth of the matter is that this is the reality we live in. These rights were bestowed upon us by our CREATOR and they CANNOT BE REVOKED. A law attempting to do so is MEANINGLESS.
Therefore, I accept that the most wicked amongst us shall share all the same rights because there IS no other choice, this is something out of our control, and something we must contend with. I believe that our law enforcers serve an extremely important role in our lives, but ultimately it is the JURY OF OUR PEERS who set the tone for WHAT is allowed in our community and what is not.
I believe that our law enforcers should be BOUND BY OUR LAWS completely. For those cases where an obvious wrong is in play (e.g., organized crime that is hurting our community) but our law enforcers are unable to act because of the oaths they took, and the laws they are bound by, then WE THE PEOPLE should do what we believe is right, and let our peers make the final judgement if necessary.
I believe that I must accept, on an individual basis, that anyone unknown to me is like me and someone I can trust. I also believe that anyone who violates that trust must, in many cases, be forgiven. Only upon establishment of a pattern of dishonesty, will I ever publicize my observations and shun that individual.
I believe that if someone fucks with you, then I am obligated provide you with assistance.
I believe you should believe, on this topic, as I do.
I believe if you do, we can do some incredible shit together.
The question of HOW we get to that point is an unanswered one, though I've got some ideas that'll take us a long way. They're expensive and non-trivial, but completely possible.
Thank you, Men. I'm glad many feel as I do, even those who in effect said "no" though their answer says "not what it is now" in a sense. I believe a restoration of our founding principles are what is in order. I strongly believe a day of reconing is coming, and wonder how much more "Live and let live" we have left until it's full on. My family are all Countrymen. From the Mayflower to Daniel Boone, to revolutionary war hero cousins, my family have enlisted. When my Dad was 63 days shy of a 20 year military retirement, he got his back crushed and fought tooth and nail not only to be able to walk again, but for his retirement and dignity. We lost everything fighting the government, moved to a shitty little house in the country with no car, and whatever fit in a borrowed 2 horse trailer.
It was an eye opening experience for a kid to see. After a decade, he finally annoyed them enough to agree to pay for him some additional schooling to help get a job. By then, it was my Junior year in high school. He sat me down, and told me all he'd been through "fighting" those whom he fought FOR. It was shortly after that when he passed away- just before he finished schooling. But made me promise- if you're ever drafted you'd sure as hell better go- and fight for your country, but don't ever sign up for the evill within the ranks to use you. Ive pondered his words for decades. It's only now I see what he could see.
I thank you all for the books, and quotes etc that have helped you. I'm looking for copies now- and agree the best thing we can do is arm ourselves now.
Not just in weapons, gear, ammo, optics, training, etc. But also for the why. When someone asks you why is it worth saving- I think we need armed with our why. The more we can have as likeminded, the more of us are ready at the hat drop to throw in behind our brothers shoulder to shoulder, and the more will join the ranks.
"Why" its worth saving is an honest question that is easy to feel, live, and expend, but hard to find the right words to answer.
Harder yet, how will we do it. I don't know if it can ever again be at the ballot box, but sure as hell going to vote as though it will.
It was an eye opening experience for a kid to see. After a decade, he finally annoyed them enough to agree to pay for him some additional schooling to help get a job. By then, it was my Junior year in high school. He sat me down, and told me all he'd been through "fighting" those whom he fought FOR. It was shortly after that when he passed away- just before he finished schooling. But made me promise- if you're ever drafted you'd sure as hell better go- and fight for your country, but don't ever sign up for the evill within the ranks to use you. Ive pondered his words for decades. It's only now I see what he could see.
I thank you all for the books, and quotes etc that have helped you. I'm looking for copies now- and agree the best thing we can do is arm ourselves now.
Not just in weapons, gear, ammo, optics, training, etc. But also for the why. When someone asks you why is it worth saving- I think we need armed with our why. The more we can have as likeminded, the more of us are ready at the hat drop to throw in behind our brothers shoulder to shoulder, and the more will join the ranks.
"Why" its worth saving is an honest question that is easy to feel, live, and expend, but hard to find the right words to answer.
Harder yet, how will we do it. I don't know if it can ever again be at the ballot box, but sure as hell going to vote as though it will.
I can't be certain, but it appears that some of us aren't reading history and are doomed to repeat it.
...Or if it's sarcasm, it's completely lost on the likes of me.
FYI, I was drafted, and served two years, mostly in a foreign war (as a Combat Engineer, in fact). My two elder Brothers were also drafted and served two years active stateside; so what you clamor for not only existed, but got trampled by the antiwar movement after Vietnam. That's the same folks who inhabit the deeper parts of the swamp these days.
Wall to the North, wall to the South? All we'd need then are beach defenses, and we'll be right up there with Hitler's Festung Europa.
Are any of these things bad, not by my book; but they could just as easily be indicative of the sort of paranoia that hatched all those whack job Fascist and the Communist states.
I read, "If you're going through Hell, don't slow down".
I think instead, that "If you're going through Hell, you had better find a better navigator; you should never have been there in the first place".
But we are going through Hell, so...
That Hell is bent on destroying the rule of law, by the enactment of laws that are both unjust and unenforceable, by enacting laws that are so broad, they provide pretext to apprehend literally anyone solely dependent upon the whims of elected/appointed officials and their LE minions, by enacting laws that are so deliberately confrontational that they beg the question, just who do they actually expect to obey them; a deliberate affront to the law abiding?
It's not about when we get there, we already are there; and yet, we sit paralyzed, each doing the "Alphonse and Gaston".
We could adopt the "Just say no..." mantra; but when the folks you're saying it to really don't give a sh*t about anything you have to say...
Greg
...Or if it's sarcasm, it's completely lost on the likes of me.
FYI, I was drafted, and served two years, mostly in a foreign war (as a Combat Engineer, in fact). My two elder Brothers were also drafted and served two years active stateside; so what you clamor for not only existed, but got trampled by the antiwar movement after Vietnam. That's the same folks who inhabit the deeper parts of the swamp these days.
Wall to the North, wall to the South? All we'd need then are beach defenses, and we'll be right up there with Hitler's Festung Europa.
Are any of these things bad, not by my book; but they could just as easily be indicative of the sort of paranoia that hatched all those whack job Fascist and the Communist states.
I read, "If you're going through Hell, don't slow down".
I think instead, that "If you're going through Hell, you had better find a better navigator; you should never have been there in the first place".
But we are going through Hell, so...
That Hell is bent on destroying the rule of law, by the enactment of laws that are both unjust and unenforceable, by enacting laws that are so broad, they provide pretext to apprehend literally anyone solely dependent upon the whims of elected/appointed officials and their LE minions, by enacting laws that are so deliberately confrontational that they beg the question, just who do they actually expect to obey them; a deliberate affront to the law abiding?
It's not about when we get there, we already are there; and yet, we sit paralyzed, each doing the "Alphonse and Gaston".
We could adopt the "Just say no..." mantra; but when the folks you're saying it to really don't give a sh*t about anything you have to say...
Greg
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What I think is worth saving may not be anywhere close to what someone else thinks is worth saving. Here are my thoughts and/questions about OP's question.
1. If America is saved, will it be continued as it functions (or doesn't function) currently, or will it be changed to the America that existed at some previous time, or to something altogether different?
2. If America is saved, and then changed, who gets to decide what it will be changed to? I might want to change America to something that a dozen members of this site imagine, but wouldn't really be all that keen on saving America just so Antifa can change it into their version of utopia.
3. If it is decided that America isn't worth saving, then what happens?
When omama said "change, yes we can", most of America failed to ask "change to what exactly?" So saving one version of American might be a horrible idea, while saving a different version of America might seem wonderful. After saving America, then the question would be what happens next? What will it be changed into? Saying we want to save America without details of what we are saving, or what we want it to become after we save it could be fraught with disappointment.
It would be all well and good if I could pick 20-50 people from this site, and those people would get to decide what will become of what we "save", but if America is saved only to be turned into a country imagined and driven by Antifa types, I might not want to save it. If we/I get to save America and turn it into whatever I envision, then that would be great. Saving the country only to give more control to Antifa and anarchists isn't something I would favor.
Perhaps the first order of business is deciding who gets to make the changes before we just go along with "lets save it" without asking what we are saving, or what we are saving it for.
1. If America is saved, will it be continued as it functions (or doesn't function) currently, or will it be changed to the America that existed at some previous time, or to something altogether different?
2. If America is saved, and then changed, who gets to decide what it will be changed to? I might want to change America to something that a dozen members of this site imagine, but wouldn't really be all that keen on saving America just so Antifa can change it into their version of utopia.
3. If it is decided that America isn't worth saving, then what happens?
When omama said "change, yes we can", most of America failed to ask "change to what exactly?" So saving one version of American might be a horrible idea, while saving a different version of America might seem wonderful. After saving America, then the question would be what happens next? What will it be changed into? Saying we want to save America without details of what we are saving, or what we want it to become after we save it could be fraught with disappointment.
It would be all well and good if I could pick 20-50 people from this site, and those people would get to decide what will become of what we "save", but if America is saved only to be turned into a country imagined and driven by Antifa types, I might not want to save it. If we/I get to save America and turn it into whatever I envision, then that would be great. Saving the country only to give more control to Antifa and anarchists isn't something I would favor.
Perhaps the first order of business is deciding who gets to make the changes before we just go along with "lets save it" without asking what we are saving, or what we are saving it for.
Q
QuickNDirty
Guest
I think the folks here have the right stuff to pull it off.
Just gotta get people passed the mental hurdle of, "Shit, we're really doing this? Random fuckers from a message board can lead America back to its roots?"
Stranger shit has happened...
The USA is worth Saving the Fed Gov is not, it needs destroying. All of it.
The posts above me are examples of precisely what I was referring to about knowing what we would be saving and/or what would happen to things if it were saved. I'm fine with it if I get to decide what is saved, and what happens after it is saved. If someone or some other group gets to decide, I have a whole bunch of questions first.
Q
QuickNDirty
Guest
If not you, who?
If not now, when?
To paraphrase George Soros, "If I hadn't helped the nazis confiscate property from the jews, someone else would have. If it wasn't me manipulating markets and doing crazy shit in the world, someone else would have."
Manifest destiny, basically. We're at a point where shit can go in a lot of different directions. I, personally, prefer the direction folks on this board want to take it. I also am very much not in favor of a lot of other directions it could go.
I think there's still enough folks out there that will either embrace what we come up with outright, or will join the bandwagon once it gets moving.
Easy? No.
Fun? Absolutely.
Dangerous? Oh hell yes.
Worth it? I think so.
The problem with the silent majority is that it tends to stay silent until it is no longer a majority. And then it's too late. People may be unhappy about the way things are going socially and politically but history shows that they are not going to rise up unless they are suffering economically. I can't think of a single major revolution or rebellion that was not primarily driven by economic causes. The American Revolutionary War was a result of unfair and oppressive taxation. The Civil War, contrary to the revisionist version of history that is taught today, was primarily about tariffs (i.e. the Tariff of Abominations) and incompatible economic objectives of the North and the South. The North wanted tariffs to protect domestic manufacturing industries; the South hated the tariffs because they devastated the import-reliant Southern economy. Trump got elected because a lot of people lost their manufacturing jobs to outsourcing over the past couple of decades.
In the end, it's all about economics. Absent some major economic crisis, America will continue down the same path it's on right now: rapid demographic and social change and replacement of traditional culture with post-modernist norms. Within a couple of generations, people who understand or care about the constitution and the original idea of America will be a small minority.
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If our constitutional rights being trampled on, cops shooting unarmed/innocent people and taking guns left and right, having money taken from you to pay for illegals, abortions and sex change operations, alphabet organizations telling people they can’t build or live on their own property, etc, etc, isn’t enough to wake people up, then I don’t think major economic crisis isn’t gonna be enough either. Time is long overdue. I’m not gonna start the fight by myself though. I’m prepared either way.
The next few generations of spoiled losers are going to give away the world to the muzzies anyway. We are raising a generation that has a mental breakdown if someone puts on an Indian costume for Halloween, and it just gets worse as these mental midgets are now raising children of their own. Muslims aren't raising snowflakes, they are raising killers, and their ideology compels them to take over the whole world. I believe they will succeed in a century or less, then there will be decades of misery and death worldwide before some people grow some balls the size of our founding fathers and attempts to throw off the shackles. Anything short of completely wiping the Muslim ideology off the face of the planet is just stall tactics. "Diversity", "multiculturalism", and "globalism" are the fatal diseases that will destroy the world.
You left out blatantly stealing elections and trying to interrupt the nomination/election process. The rule of law is gone. You might as well do whatever you want tomorrow, seems to work for some. Until we demand accountability it will get worse. And by demand I don’t mean write your congressmen.
Look at the yellow vest movement in France. They are not protesting abortions, sex change operations, mass migration or the transformation of France into an islamic state. Instead, hundreds of thousands of people are rioting over a fuel tax.
The Fuel Tax is a Straw. The Last Straw for many...the riots are about Macron and the French Government fleecing working people and they are tired of it. The riots started over the Fuel Tax but are a result of Government stomping working class people into the ground. This is a rebellion against abusive Government and Politicians.
VooDoo
VooDoo
How it went wrong, we stopped treating treason by hanging from the neck until dead. We started pretending rehabilitate criminals. If we can't trust you with a gun when you get out of prison. You aren't fucking rehabilitated.
I'm fine with it being me, I'm not so sure that the liberals on the left will be OK with that idea though. What the liberal left wants doesn't change my opinions about what would good ideas though.
I have many French friends and many friends all over Europe. Rank and file/person to person Americans are no longer as passionate about participating in the direction of their Nation as much of the folks in Europe are. We are complacent and kept in the dark having been groomed for at least 40ish years to sit down and shut up by Media, Government, The Oligarchy, and Bureaucracy.
We can do it and have just cause to start banging heads with our Government but not enough people give a Fuck yet if they ever will. Somewhere like 1/2 the people in America who are registered to vote actually voted...I guarantee maybe 1/2 the people even registered. Like 25% of people eligible to vote in the US bothered to do so...if they can't be bothered to go cast a vote do we really think they go throw rocks at Donald Trumps house (or Obama's house, or Bush's house...) or take to the streets and demand a resignation?
Apathy in America. We have been groomed by easy living and manipulated by the Media/Government/Oligarchy to believe we can;t fix it and that our fate is out of our control. Not so with the French.
VooDoo
We can do it and have just cause to start banging heads with our Government but not enough people give a Fuck yet if they ever will. Somewhere like 1/2 the people in America who are registered to vote actually voted...I guarantee maybe 1/2 the people even registered. Like 25% of people eligible to vote in the US bothered to do so...if they can't be bothered to go cast a vote do we really think they go throw rocks at Donald Trumps house (or Obama's house, or Bush's house...) or take to the streets and demand a resignation?
Apathy in America. We have been groomed by easy living and manipulated by the Media/Government/Oligarchy to believe we can;t fix it and that our fate is out of our control. Not so with the French.
VooDoo
And now, a timely reference to the Heinlein Society...
It exists, and in so doing demonstrates that there are real people within our society who are still seriously working the problem. Maybe there should be some more of this particular stripe.
Greg
It exists, and in so doing demonstrates that there are real people within our society who are still seriously working the problem. Maybe there should be some more of this particular stripe.
Greg
Q
QuickNDirty
Guest
The wants and wishes of the people that would like to see the end of folks like us ought not matter much more than the deer resting in my freezer.
They don't care about yours.
https://www.conservativereview.com/...-op-ed-contributor-chanting-death-to-america/
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Q
QuickNDirty
Guest
Apathy is a nasty disease. There's a possibility, though, that once upon a time I was a good kid just trying to turn my life around and will go on to find a cure for it
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