Is anyone else worried?

H

hrfunk

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Apr 18, 2010
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#1
As I peruse the various forums, I'm a little dismayed by the banter of the youngsters. It appears that many of them are looking for the "majic bean" combination of optic, rifle, and cartridge that will insure precise hits at extended ranges with little or no effort on their part.

As I implied in my thread on Vintage Sniper Rifles, part of becoming a rifleman is working with your equipment and learning from your mistakes. I think there is still value in that. When I shoot, I sometimes (dare I say it) miss. That is a learning opportunity. When I analyze a miss, and determine what caused it, I improve my knowledge and reduce the chances of a similar occurrence in the future. As I've repeated that cycle over the years I've improved as a shooter. It has taken effort and I'm proud to have done it.

I guess my problem is that I don't see a willingness on the part of the "bells & whistles" crowd to put forth a similar effort. Maybe this is just further verification that I'm becoming an old guy, but I'm worried that a lot of the collective knowledge of the more seasoned shooters will be ignored by the instant-gratification crowd; and eventually, that knowledge will fade into history.

What do you guys think. Is this a valid concern, or should I just have another shot of bourbon and stop wringing my hands?

HRF
 
#2
Yep. "Old"(experienced) people are always gonna gripe about "young"(inexperienced) people.

Edit: I'm not young anymore, but I still take my .22s out (when I can find ammo) to practice marksmanship skills, etc. The lighter weight rifles highlight issues that can be masked by heavier rifles.

Hr isn't totally off-base, IMO, but there have always been those who want a "quick fix" vs. those willing to learn fundamentals and improve through hard work, and there always will be.
 
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#3
mallrat said:
Yep. "Old" people are always gonna gripe about "young" people.
Click to expand...


I don't bother griping about "young" people. I figure that eventually they'll learn, just like I did. Of course today, damn near everyone is "young" when compared to me :)

I agree with hrfunk. Today everyone wants to go out and buy a super rifle from a big name "Custom Shop" then expect it to perform magic at 1k or more.

Nobody wants to start out with a single shot Stevens "Military Trainer" in .22LR and learn how to shoot first. Not as cool I guess.
 
#4
Well if you really think about it, a lot of x-gen'rs and older are guilty as well. We are the generation with the money. A positive note is the constant pursuit of the "easy fix" has fueled the industry and allowed it to thrive. Giving them the option to produce firearms for every budget and skill level.

Marksmanship and ballistics is a learned process; a $10k rifle may shoot 10 in a dime, but it will not shoot itself. That is where trigger time comes in, mastering the skills with various firearms. Our responsibility as older marksmen is to mentor the younger generation.

Most "chan-tards" on the internet are looking for an easy fix, and usually how I deal with them is to post resource material so they can read and learn. That is why I chuckle when I read all of the constant gun facts regurgitated over and over.

An example is FFP vs SFP and mil/moa turrets, yes FFP is more efficient, but efficiency does not negate effectiveness of the alternative. A true marksman will be proficient with both.

In short, nothing will replace trigger time.
 
#5
Someone's youth/age is not always an indicator of their experience, knowledge, and or ignorance. I've been dismissed by older "more experienced" shooters that are having a problem in or trying a certain aspect of shooting that I'm knowledgeable/experienced in. I simply give my advice in an attempt to help and the ones that have an open mind and are willing try the advice are often pleasantly surprised.

I've also had older "more experienced" shooters attempt to correct me with techniques that are correct and written in stone as the right way according them. In which with an open mind I try and use if they help or dismiss if they don't.

As far as the gear goes... There's is nothing wrong with starting out with top of the line/quality gear as long as the person puts in the trigger time, is willing to take advice, keeps an open mind, uses logic and personal experience to implement or dismiss advice given.
 
#6
Hard for the younger crowd to separate fact from fiction until they experience it first hand. Then again why should it be any different with shooting, everyone these days think they can buy in and be top dog by just opening their wallet, no matter the field. Old guys like me (66) can be an ass at times, and we/I know that, but there is a big difference between having the experience vs buying in. Had many a guy come to the land nav courses I taught in Fla. years back. Some of the details would make you cry with laughter, over what they thought they knew (or were not scared of) before they met Mr. reality between 2100 an 0500hrs
 
#7
I find many not all young shooters lacking in basic fundamentals of shooting. When at the range I spend a lot of time helping them out especially when they are trying to zero their rifle at 100 yards before doing any preparatory work even to the point of setting up their scopes properly (no attempt to level and torque them properly) and to loctite the the screws on the mount and rings. The most common mistake they initially try to zero @ 100 yards first without any pre zero bore sighting or shooting first 25 or 50 yards first and can't get on paper at 100 yards.
Then there are some that really know what they are doing. Ether they come from a family that has been in the game and trained by the family or they are ex service men. In those cases I they can teach this old goat a few things.
 
#8
I agree. This phenomenon is not solely manifested in the young. There are certainly people old enough to know better who believe that if they simply adorn their rifle with the correct light-up gizmo, it will instantaneously mitigate their lack of training and allow them to shoot just like (insert your favorite Hollywood dead-eye here).

Incidentally, said gizmo itself must be festooned with a requisite number of dials, switches, antennae, tv screens, etc, to allow the transformation.

HRF
 
#9
Worried? No. Saddened maybe. But, I'm seeing some hopeful developments recently.

On the one hand, kids of old who wanted to learn marksmanship usually started with small bore. Many of the top high power shooters today shoot small bore because they know that's where they can more easily find errors in their fundamentals and keep them honed during the off season.

Small bore is dying on the vine in many areas around here. In some areas, leagues are shutting down as kids are going directly from their shoot-em-up video games to high power. Most kids today don't have the discipline necessary to become true marksmen. I doubt most who do take up shooting take the time to snap in for any significant amount of time.

However, on the other hand, 4-H and some High Schools are keeping some of the small bore leagues afloat. Young shooters are once again coming in and learning the fundamentals from the start. I think the current administration has a lot to do with the recent influx, though only a handfull of them stick with it. There's a schedule conflict with the ball sports in many cases, and most kids would rather have the excitement of ball games.

I'm with you about analyzing shots to find problems and fix them. One coach I know says not to think about the bad shots. Only think about the good shots and keep doing the same things you did for those shots. His reasoning is to think positive, not negative. I can see his point, but I believe every shot has a story to tell, both the good and the bad, and you can learn something from each. The trick is to detach ones self from emotion, and remain objective and analytical. But, I guess touchy-feely is in, and I can't really argue with him as he is consistently sending kids to the Junior Olympics.
 
#10
This issue, like most, is created by the societal sickness which has infected nearly everyone.

People are rarely happy with the simple act of doing a thing and being happy with themselves. They must be able to impress others, in order to have a sense of self worth. This is why everyone is an expert, at everything. Status in society is celebrated, and people are famous simply for being famous. Peoples actions do not have any real bearing on their position in society... it's merely the perception which is created that matters. This is not the mark of a healthy society.

One of the first things I try to impress upon anyone I'm trying to help, is that they must shoot for themselves. It must be a purely selfish affair. Trying to achieve status does nothing for their skillset. Some time back, "snipers" became cool, after being glorified by movies. Where we are now is the predictable result of that shift in perception.

It certainly explains the desire for new shooters to take every shortcut they can, so they can achieve notoriety among their group in the shortest time possible with the least amount of effort.
 
#11
It has always been about fundamentals, and will be as long as we have "dumb" bullets. I have to take off my shoes to count the number of people I encountered locally last year who bought all kinds of gear for some shooting sport and summarily got their butt kicked, gave up and went home. Does make for a good deal on lightly used equipment here and there. Hard work and practice are becoming lost "values".

It is not the kids, it is how they are raised. We don't trust them, push them, discipline them or teach them, and then we cry when they go off the deep end or onto welfare. I am doing my level best to not let my kids end up there, but society is trying to put them there, so I just have to do better...time and love is what I have been told works, and that is what my wife and I do.
 
#12
I'm 26 so I guess I'm young. I know what you guys are saying though, I have gotten to the point where I don't go to the range with any of my peers because they care more about taking pictures and video (with the guns) for facebook then they care about sending lead down range. it downright aggravates me. They go to the range shoot 20-40 rounds(in the middle of the photo shoot) then go home, meanwhile I'm on the range all day having a great time "learning from my misses". It's not a fad for me, I really love being out there.
 
#13
I think a good bit of what you all are saying is true. As a seventeen year old on this forum, I think I can provide a fairly unique point of view on this issue. I am just breaking into the game, and I haven't been around many high quality long range shooters yet (hopefully this will change with a membership to oak ridge in the near future, but for now, I'm stuck with the local hunting rifle zero range), so I can't consider myself experienced in any sense, but I can definitly speak to the nature of my generation from a first person point of view. I think all of this stems from a very real lack of motivation in my generation. I look around at others my age and I have a hard time finding people who are willing to pursue their homework, much less a complicated, precise, and often frustrating sport. I think this is why younger generations want to go buy the newest custom rifle with the newest scope with the most gadgets on it. The new shiny screen on the B.O.R.S they put on their 5000 dollar scope is just another way to keep it interesting for another month. Heck even though I have been pursuing shooting as a sport for a couple years now, I'm still guilty of it. I drool over AICS's every time I see them even though my 300 dollar 700 adl will probably still outshoot me right now. I dont think people spending money in the firearms industry is an issue, lord knows it needs it with the attacks on the 2nd amendment that are happening right now, I think the problem lies in the fact that they need to spend it to stay interested. Makes you wonder where the world's headed. Just my two cents.


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#14
One of my major pet peeves is trigger pull weight. Everyone wants a super light trigger, but they don't even know
how to take advantage of that trigger. Their groups are better with the light trigger because they don't have any trigger control.
I remember shoot my Anschutz 1411 with a 2 ounce trigger at an indoor range. Guy was in there with his girlfriend. She was just watching him shoot a pistol. So I asked her if she wanted to shoot the 1411. She said yes and i showed her how to shoot it off my Sinclair rest and Peltor rear bag. She shot a one hole five shot group that was just a bit larger than a .22 lr. He boyfriend came over and I let him shoot the rifle. He wouldn't listen to me and tried to shoot a group on his own. It must have been a 3/4 inch group that he shot. He was all over the place. This rifle will do one hole all day long, indoors.
Getting back to my pet peeve. I like to start shooters out with a 3lb trigger so they learn the right trigger control. Then take then to the light triggers.
One other story. A friend bough on of those Colt M4 22lr's. They have horrible 10lb triggers. I shot it off the bench and put them into one hole. Trigger control, not light triggers.
BTW, I'm 62
 
#15
This is a great topic and while there may be some differences of opinion, or angles at which it's viewed from, it's great to see a civil conversation on the subject.

I'm 40 years old. Sometimes, I think the same things about "kids today", etc. But, I think Roggom made a great point, in that it's not just limited to "young" people. Sometimes, I even find myself falling into the same traps. In comparison with the "average" gun owner, I shoot a LOT. For about the last 13 years, I've been in a location that allows me to shoot pretty much whenever I want and I can tell you that I take full advantage of that. That's why I decided to live where I do. All I have to do is step out the door (hell, I've even been known to test loads out of the window of my shop when it's 20 below zero!). But, if there's one thing that I've learned through these years, it's that I don't progress, nor do I see progress with a new rifle/load, when I'm not honest with MYSELF. It's hard to admit when you screwed up, sometimes. It's much easier to blame the gun, the load, or even the weather conditions. But, doing something like, say, only measuring the "best 3 out of 5" in a group, or making excuses, just doesn't help me progress as a shooter. Sure, the wind may have been a factor, but my inability to properly call it probably had more to do with it.

I only started shooting CMP matches a few years ago. I thought I was pretty good to that point. Boy, was I humbled in a hurry. I have to admit that I see a lot of the young (and old) "Mall Ninja" types on the rare occasion that I make it to a public range. The guys that have a $3500 AR with everything you can hang on it, but they're lucky if they can keep all their rounds on a 12" plate at 50 yards. You probably know the type. However, what I've also seen is a few youngsters, or young adults that are serious shooters and have good heads on their shoulders. At the CMP shoots, I've seen some young guys that can clean your clock if you don't bring your A-Game. I'm also working with my oldest daughter, who is about to turn 12, on the fundamentals of shooting. It started for her at age 5, shooting BB/pellet guns and .22LR, shortly thereafter. Nowadays, she can shoot an M4 with A2 irons as well or better than a lot of men I know. She want to start shooting CMP matches this year and I think it's about time she does. But, that's where it really starts, I think. When they're young. Learn the fundamentals at an early age. Learn how to shoot with irons, a sling and from different positions and it will go a long way in every other type of shooting you do from that point, on. Going back to irons and a good .22LR is a great way to stay fresh, as well. But, not matter the age, being honest with yourself has to be SOP. It's not always easy, but it will teach you more than excuses could ever teach you.

My .02

John
 
#16
I think too many folks try to cut the experience "corners" and buy proficiency. I am all in favor of buying the best equipment you can afford.
Regardless of the endeavor I have always tried to cover up my lack of talent with good equipment.
 
#17
hrfunk said:
As I peruse the various forums, I'm a little dismayed by the banter of the youngsters. It appears that many of them are looking for the "majic bean" combination of optic, rifle, and cartridge that will insure precise hits at extended ranges with little or no effort on their part.

As I implied in my thread on Vintage Sniper Rifles, part of becoming a rifleman is working with your equipment and learning from your mistakes. I think there is still value in that. When I shoot, I sometimes (dare I say it) miss. That is a learning opportunity. When I analyze a miss, and determine what caused it, I improve my knowledge and reduce the chances of a similar occurrence in the future. As I've repeated that cycle over the years I've improved as a shooter. It has taken effort and I'm proud to have done it.

I guess my problem is that I don't see a willingness on the part of the "bells & whistles" crowd to put forth a similar effort. Maybe this is just further verification that I'm becoming an old guy, but I'm worried that a lot of the collective knowledge of the more seasoned shooters will be ignored by the instant-gratification crowd; and eventually, that knowledge will fade into history.

What do you guys think. Is this a valid concern, or should I just have another shot of bourbon and stop wringing my hands?

HRF
Click to expand...

My experience is vastly different, I find many young folks taking classes to learn the right way. Everyone has more money than 30 years ago even in the down economy otherwise the custom rifle shops and AI would not be growing at the rate they are. The last few tactical rifle classes I took were loaded with young people willing to learn. Unlike many(though certainly not all) old timers that you cant tell anything to.
 
#18
orkan said:
This issue, like most, is created by the societal sickness which has infected nearly everyone.

People are rarely happy with the simple act of doing a thing and being happy with themselves. They must be able to impress others, in order to have a sense of self worth. This is why everyone is an expert, at everything. Status in society is celebrated, and people are famous simply for being famous. Peoples actions do not have any real bearing on their position in society... it's merely the perception which is created that matters. This is not the mark of a healthy society.

One of the first things I try to impress upon anyone I'm trying to help, is that they must shoot for themselves. It must be a purely selfish affair. Trying to achieve status does nothing for their skillset. Some time back, "snipers" became cool, after being glorified by movies. Where we are now is the predictable result of that shift in perception.

It certainly explains the desire for new shooters to take every shortcut they can, so they can achieve notoriety among their group in the shortest time possible with the least amount of effort.
Click to expand...

Well said. The "sickness" you referred to doesn't just manifest itself in the shooting world. You see it in every aspect of today's life. Not just do people seek "fame" but they also have to posses the latest and greatest of everything or they feel inadequate. Why else would people line up as much as a week or so in advance, waiting for the release of he newest I-Phone, X-Box, etc. They have to drive a vehicle that is not only "unique" but also needs the loudest possible sound system their electrical system will support (I sat in traffic the other day behind a Suburban that had the system "cranked". As the speakers Boom-Boom-Boomed, the tail/brake lites dimmed-dimmed-dimmed).

All you in your 30's-40's will see the results of this "sickness" as your age group reaches retirement age. Those who had to have the latest and greatest, spending all their money to impress others, will now be lined up demanding that the Government support them. Those out there that worked hard, spent wisely, and weren't spending money to impress people they didn't know or even like, will be the ones the Government turns to to pony up the money necessary. The old story of the Ant and the Grasshopper will become reality in our society, BIG TIME.

What really bothers me is not just in the world of shooting but almost all life activities, is the loss of individual skills.

How many people today know how to use simple hand tools to build what they need? How many, now that we have hand-held GPS devices, even bother to take a good compass and map with them when they go hunting? Rely on Cell/Smart phones for emergency communications?

What do you do when the batteries go dead or you have no place to plug in your power tool?
 
#19
Bah, the sickness you are referring to is genetic, as every generation of elder has thought the younger generations were poorly capable of doing anything right. In my opinion the last great generation was the folks that survived WWII whether on a battlefield, factory, or farm... The worst, the one that followed just after it, that is doing a shit job of leading our country in all aspects since around 1992.
 
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#20
Hunt4life said:
In my opinion the last great generation was the folks that survived WWII whether on a battlefield, factory, or farm... The worst, the one that followed just after it, that is doing a shit job of leading our country in all aspects since around 1992.
Click to expand...


I'd give the WWII "children" more credit than I think you do. Those born after the Korean War are the ones that figured out how to suck the Government teat rather than get out and get an education, learn a trade, and work like their parents and grandparents did.

You can push the failure in leadership even earlier than 1992. I'd say it started with Kennedy's election and really went down hill with LBJ's ascension to office. Let's save some scorn for Dr. Benjamin Spock who's 1946 book told everyone they were raising their kids wrong. Today we have prisons full of people that prove his theory wrong.

As for out so called "leaders"? Just remember, people get the government they deserve. Nobody wants to do anything but vote "D" or "R" so what do you expect?
 
#21
Hunt4life said:
...every generation of elder has thought the younger generations were poorly capable of doing anything right.
Click to expand...

Every? I think what you are observing has only been the trend since the collapse of the 1960s, and for good reason.

Hunt4life said:
The worst, the one that followed just after it, that is doing a shit job of leading our country in all aspects since around 1992.
Click to expand...

....and the younger generation is the one that keeps voting these idiots in. LOL!
 
#25
I see it all the time with not just younger people, but unexperienced people who want to be a "sniper" but have know real knowledge of the term. They have this dream of the Bob Lee Swagger type head shots at 1k so they get on a forum and start asking the "best" questions. Whats the best rifle to get, the best scope to get, and so on. They dump5-6K on a custom made Rem 700 with a 3-4k optic on it. They buy the latest and greatest laser range finder, spotting scope, the tacticool gear bag, and then head to the range.

.....Then sadly, they can barely hit a 6" circle at 300yds and the realization that they have no fucking idea of what they're doing sets in.

So naturaly they go buy "the Art of the Precision Rifle" from magpul....because after all it's got that bad ass "Pew Pew Pew" guy in it. But they soon realize they can't learn shit from a dvd. But hey, at least they know the ling now.
 
#26
Darkside-Six said:
But hey, at least they know the ling now.
Click to expand...
Ya,... until you ask them a very basic fieldcraft, question. Had a guy tell me for 30 minutes he had BTDT and how good he was,... so why not,....out comes the compass and map. Told him to orientate the map, shoot me a night heading from where we were, to point X. Then I ask for the distance, which pace count we would use, and set the compass to indicate such. He could not even find our location on the map let alone use the compass at all,... I'd hate to have him call Arty or Tac-Air, he'd likely attack our own shit.
Come to think about, I put him in the same class as a 2lt with the land-nav challenge, should have believed him,...Yes?
 
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#27
:confused:

You know, some of you "old guys" complaining of the young crowd should consider this quote:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

- Socrates, 5th Century BC

So it stands to reason that older people than you old guys complained about YOU and even older people complained about those older people and so on and so forth before time was written into history.

Stop complaining and start contributing in a respectful way. I get tired of one generation complaining about the one before. Useless whining drivel.

What I do like to see is how helpful a lot of the members on this forum are. I also like to see people volunteering their time to teach the younger crowd. I like to see parents teaching their children good values. These are all part of the solutions, not part of the problems.
 
#28
^^^^ Bingo! ^^^^

Yes, I also see the differences in generations with my kids and others their age and younger. And at the same time I see shining examples of the same type of superior work ethic and morals that we all claim to have in every generation. The best thing we can do is work with our juniors and pass on the best that we have to them. It will take on some and not on others, but that is the best that can be done.
 
#30
NevadaZielmeister said:
:confused:

You know, some of you "old guys" complaining of the young crowd should consider this quote:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

- Socrates, 5th Century BC

So it stands to reason that older people than you old guys complained about YOU and even older people complained about those older people and so on and so forth before time was written into history.

Stop complaining and start contributing in a respectful way. I get tired of one generation complaining about the one before. Useless whining drivel.

What I do like to see is how helpful a lot of the members on this forum are. I also like to see people volunteering their time to teach the younger crowd. I like to see parents teaching their children good values. These are all part of the solutions, not part of the problems.
Click to expand...

winner
 
#33
NevadaZielmeister said:
:confused:

You know, some of you "old guys" complaining of the young crowd should consider this quote:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

- Socrates, 5th Century BC
Click to expand...

And Socrates' parents said the same thing about HIS generation, and so on, from the very beginnings of human civilization if not before. Inevitable status quo as nations and empires pass through existence into history, each less worthwhile than the previous. ;)
 
#34
To the OP you start by saying "As I peruse the various forums" well get away from the internet and take a look around. It has been several years but I was involved with the Eastern Junior High Power clinic and championship 80 to 120 juniors for 5 long days each year learning sending rounds and working target pits. The USMC rifle team supported and had these juniors moving with purpose always knowing what was going on always. I see some of these young shooters now at the nationals posting impressive scores. I stood back at the end of these week(s) and said to myself the next generation will OK. If you just look on what is written on the net your filter needs changed.
 
#35
Gunfighter14e2 said:
Sense 9-11 the ranks are over flowing with experts who,... last week could not even spell it,...
Click to expand...

Didn't you mean "since"? rofl!

I believe Socrates WAS seeing a trend in his society. I don't think each generation necessarily perceives the next in the same way, just because "that's how oldsters always view youngsters". Societies degenerate as people become lax. Each generation continues from where the last left off, and the previous generation takes note. Then, at some point decay turns to collapse, and once again the partiers are forced to become serious and take on some values for a change. It's a much longer cycle than a single generation. Don't kid yourselves, we are on the downward path. Live a little longer and you WILL understand that Socrates was not just noticing a simple, repeating generational perspective.

Back on track, I'm just happy that more are getting into the shooting sports nowadays- any shooting sports.....until I want to buy ammo or components:)
 
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#36
The most important thing is to help the next gen. at the range. I do it all the time. Hey, you wanta shoot a WW2 sniper? Almost all will say yes. Give them a few pointers and encouragement. They are human and will respond. Yes, some will remain cocky and ignore the old farts and old guns, but many will listen and enjoy. No, I am not especially worried.
 
#37
Just like you had to learn to do math on paper before you were allowed to use a calculator, its always the basics first or you will never know if your firing solution is way off base, your position is wrong, you're yanking the trigger etc. The calculator was rarely if ever wrong but if you gave it the wrong inputs you would get wrong outputs. Not all that different from shooting. That said, I'm cheap and reloading is about as close to the magic bullet as I look for. Get a quality barrel (including factory) work up a load and go shoot.

There is no magic bullet but there are certainly tons of helpful things available now that were not previously available. Its like that in many parts of life over every generation. I can find anything on google in 30 seconds or less today. I used to use encyclopedias and dictionaries to find information or God forbid go to the library and get a book on something. I do think that it causes people to think less critically though about many things which is sad.
 
#40
Great thread. I think some are getting a little hung up on defending their own generation here. I doubt the op thinks this attitude is only seen in the latest generation although it is just natural that it would be more prevalent with the younger simply because they have less experience, less knowledge and less wisdom. These things are accuired from time spent. There are however certainly exceptions to the rule in every generation. No one likes a knowitall and I'll admit I usually just distance myself from them asap. I love seeing young people get into our sport. Those that do well are always those with an open mind and aren't looking for instant gradification (which seems to be the norm these days) and easily accept instruction. What does bother me about the know it alls is when they waste all of ours time on the forum by inturrupting a good discution to tell us we don't know anything about it because we don't even know which equipment to buy because its not the lastest greatest super high tech optic and custom rifle build built by the latest greatest super builder. This kind exist in all generations and sport and just have to be tollerated' no reason to be worried about it.
 
#41
well, I agree with a lot of what is said here - and here are some reasons - we have a powerful economy - it can generate affordable firearms unlike ever before - so getting a fair rifle or a good rifle is much easier than 50 years ago -- people are more self-centered nowadays, especially since the interstate building phase in the 1950s, which made it more likely for people to go get a job far from home, and so people live in extended families less, where you had role models and people to put you in your place - there are fewer of us growing up with any gun or rifle around, like me, so I and many had no motivation to think about firearms until this gun-grab political movement a year ago.

I saw where these politicians want to go, and it scared me. I read a bunch to get edumacated, then bought a couple.

Trying to be wise by listening to people who know, I started reading this site. I did not know that in the good ol days, kids went to school with their 22's and just set them on a rack in the school, maybe the classroom, and everyone survived (except a few rabbits).

It is obvious to me that it takes trigger time. I am now spending time figuring out how to use both eyes, and a scope, on a BB gun. With both eyes watching, I can target, then see where the BB goes. I can tell I am learning a lot just by this trigger time - posture, sighting, etc. This is exciting, and I know it will translate to rifle marksmanship.

I have kind of fallen into this, by getting my two young boys BB guns for Christmas - they are just having fun and learning safety, and neither shows much patience to be disciplined yet, so I am just trying to keep them safe. They may have to overcome bad habits in the future, but if I make them do it totally right, there will be no natural fun.
 
#42
Sorry if I was unclear. I have no problem with anyone purchasing the best equipment they can afford. Continuing with your camera analogy, however, I think you'll agree the most expensive/sophisticated model does not in and of itself make one a photographer or film maker. There is a level of artistry and experience necessary for one to understand and apply the subtleties of light, contrast, angles, colors and background.

My comments above have less to do with equipment than they do with the requisite desire and effort to learn and ultimately master that equipment. It is that which I feel is waning. If I'm mistaken, then I'm happy to be so.

HRF
 
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#43
: I'm not young anymore, but I still take my .22s out (when I can find ammo) to practice marksmanship skills, etc. The lighter weight rifles highlight issues that can be masked by heavier rifles.

I try to shoot 20 tds of 22lr a day & do it just as serious as if shooting my 308 Sig or 338 Lapua. Great practice & much cheaper as I use a brick a month which cost what 20 rds of 308 or 4 rds of Lapua:p. Really I have a blast shooting 22.
 
#44
Don't care. And actually I have learned a lot from many "youngsters." They are keeping a lot of folks employed. If we all spent less time worrying about what other people are doing and worry about ourselves, being respectful and helping one another - things do improve. I feel sorry for people who have to go to some kind of range and shoot k/d off benches. They have no other comparison. Never just got to go out to the fields and shoot.

Same thing happens in the bicycling world. Younger people have no idea what friction shifters were or toe clips or who Laurent Fignon was. Shut up and ride old man, as they say. (oh I can ride) History is different. Too many kidz want to be Bob Lee Swagger, well Swagger is fiction depending on which the book or movie take. Sad thing is there is history in our sport, and there isn't respect for what came before.

Me, I am stunned by two really improved things in todays time, the excellent glass available and good flashlights. If you are over 50, these two things have really improved in the last 15 years!
 
#45
I'm young, 28yro... I just got my first expensive custom build in this past deer season... shoots like a dream. But I can see where your coming from because I grew up out in the country and even as a very young kid my parents just bought me brick of .22 lr after brick... I was a shooting freaking fool... I was 6 years old walking around the ranch with a 22 or 20 Guage shooting every bird I saw... I learned so damn much about shooting just teaching myself over years and years... The only thing I had a scope on was my old old 30-30 saddle rifle I shot deer with... I grew up open sights and learned how to Kentucky windage like a son bitch!! Took me 27 years before I got a scope that costed more than $100... I'm ate up with the sport now to this day but god I'm enjoying a mil reticle and shooting long range accuracy stuff. When it comes down to it though I could shoot way before I ever got the gear I have today... it's not the gear that makes a better shooter.... it's the shooter that makes the gear shoot.... A ton of people spend money of a rifle that's above their abilities... but most people can't out shoot a factory rifle with their skills...
 
#47
We spend our whole productive life span trying to make life easier for those who come behind us, then ever after lament their lack of understanding of what went before. Not new, not even archaeologic, perhaps prehistoric. It lies at the root of the human condition.

All this demonstrates is that humankind would rather skip to the chase than make a commitment to bringing their offspring up to speed.

My compromise has been to place rudimentary optics on 91/30's for my Grandkids to learn from shooting. Some things are simply obsolete, and some updates make sense.

Greg
 
#49
hrfunk said:
As I peruse the various forums, I'm a little dismayed by the banter of the youngsters. It appears that many of them are looking for the "majic bean" combination of optic, rifle, and cartridge that will insure precise hits at extended ranges with little or no effort on their part.

As I implied in my thread on Vintage Sniper Rifles, part of becoming a rifleman is working with your equipment and learning from your mistakes. I think there is still value in that. When I shoot, I sometimes (dare I say it) miss. That is a learning opportunity. When I analyze a miss, and determine what caused it, I improve my knowledge and reduce the chances of a similar occurrence in the future. As I've repeated that cycle over the years I've improved as a shooter. It has taken effort and I'm proud to have done it.

I guess my problem is that I don't see a willingness on the part of the "bells & whistles" crowd to put forth a similar effort. Maybe this is just further verification that I'm becoming an old guy, but I'm worried that a lot of the collective knowledge of the more seasoned shooters will be ignored by the instant-gratification crowd; and eventually, that knowledge will fade into history.

What do you guys think. Is this a valid concern, or should I just have another shot of bourbon and stop wringing my hands?

HRF
Click to expand...

Sorry to say that I didn't read all of this but just have another bourbon.


This from Mark Stein's interview with the blaze.


2. Here’s the evolution of America in five simple stages

“You know how the first generation are warriors, and then the second generation become farmers, and then the third generation become inventors and creators, and then by the fifth generation they’re diversity outreach consultants or whatever, which is the stage we’re pretty much at.”

No one cares to figure out how a toilet works anymore. They just call a plumber.
 
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